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Marc Flemming
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Post California: Lawmakers Pass Gay "Marriage" Bill post #1  quote:



Bill Would Grant Partners Many Rights Of Married Couples
Legislation that would give domestic partners many of the same legal rights as married couples was sent to the governor's desk Wednesday following a heated Assembly debate in which opponents claimed the bill amounted to gay marriage.

They argued the legislation would violate the will of voters when they approved Proposition 22, a 2000 ballot measure that defined marriage as a union between a man and a woman.

"Gay marriage is wrong; it is an aberration to God," said Assemblyman Dennis Mountjoy, R-Monrovia.

"May the wrath of the people of California come down on you," another opponent, Assemblyman Jay La Suer, R-Mesa, told the measure's supporters.

But the bill's backers denied it would conflict with Proposition 22 and said most Californians draw a distinction between gay marriage and giving domestic partners greater rights.

"Nobody is talking about gay marriage except the people who are trying to wave it around as a straw man issue," said Assemblyman John Longville, D-Rialto.

"This is catching up government with where the people of California are," added Assemblyman John Laird, D-Santa Cruz. A recent Field Poll found that 72 percent of California voters surveyed supported expanded rights for same-sex couples.

Scheduled to take effect on Jan. 1, 2005, the bill, would give domestic partners the ability to ask for child support and alimony, the right to health coverage under a partner's plan and the ability to make funeral arrangements for a partner.

Other provisions would give domestic partners access to family student housing, bereavement and family care leave and exemptions from estate and gift taxes, and in the event of a partner's death, the authority to consent to an autopsy, donate organs and to make funeral arrangements.

It also would prevent courts from forcing a domestic partner to testify against the other partner in a trial, and it would give domestic partners the ability to apply for absentee ballots on a partner's behalf.

The bill, by Assemblywoman Jackie Goldberg, D-Los Angeles, would place greater legal responsibilities on domestic partners as well. They would be responsible for their partner's debts, would have their income factored into their partner's eligibility for public assistance benefits, and would be required to disclose their relationships to avoid nepotism and conflicts of interest.

Gay rights activists, who had made the bill the centerpiece of a legislative agenda that also included job and housing protections for transgender individuals, applauded Tuesday's Assembly action. "It's an extremely historic day in a historic summer that we are beginning to call the summer of gay love in California," said Geoffrey Kors, executive director of Equality Now, a statewide civil rights group.

In 1999, California became the first state in the country to allow gay and lesbian couples, as well as elderly heterosexual couples, to register as domestic partners. Since then more than 22,000 couples have signed up.

Two years ago, the Legislature passed a measure giving domestic partners about a dozen rights previously available only to heterosexual spouses or the next of kin, including the right to make medical decisions for incapacitated partners, to sue for a partner's wrongful death and to adopt a partner's child.

Once Gov. Gray Davis signs this year's measure, as he has indicated he would, California will be in the same league as Vermont in terms of the rights afforded gay and lesbian couples, Kors said. Responding to a court order, Vermont allowed so-called "civil unions" for same-sex couples, but otherwise the laws differ only in the state-specific rights they confer, according to Kors.

"Either way, they are still separate but equal institutions, and they still fall short of true equality," he said.

Wednesday's 41-32 vote approved Senate amendments to the Goldberg bill removing a provision that would have allowed domestic partners to file their state income taxes jointly.

Source: NBC (San Jose)


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Marlene Newell
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post #2  quote:

Well, I guess we waited too long for the recall.

Old Post 09-13-2003 07:02 AM
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post #3  quote:

quote:
Originally posted by Marlene Newell
Well, I guess we waited too long for the recall.


You dont think that should pass?

I do....

Bill Would Grant Partners Many Rights Of Married Couples
Legislation that would give domestic partners many of the same legal rights as married couples


Why should they be denied this right? I mean people can live together out here (a man and woman) and if they live together for 7 years they are common law...thus giving the woman or man rights to each others things if they split up...kind of like a divorce....

Is there a reason why gay couples should not have those same rights? Is it fair to have a lifetime relationship with someone and not havel legal rights to their things they they collected together?

I watched this show...a trilogy on gay couples.....the first one that happened was about two women that had spent a lifetime together, and one died.....the nephew came in and took the house, and his aunt's things...acting as if her partner never existed....it made me SO mad!!! Why is that right? I realize it was just a movie...but I have to believe it was also reality!

Its not right...I think if they live together and make a life together...why shouldnt they have the same rights as any other commonlaw couple? Why not just let them legally get married already?

Why must we make things so hard on others when our life is not affected by it?

I say let it pass! Let them have the same rights as everyone else...if not, arent they just as oppressed as the blacks were in the days when they had to sit at separate lunch counters?

Have we not learned anything from our past history? (we...being the people of the United States, and anywhere else for that matter).


Old Post 09-13-2003 07:40 AM
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post #4  quote:

Mystic... there is one thing that I've learned on this message board. There are people who agree with you... there are people who don't agree with you. No matter what you say/post... there isn't going to be anyone changing their minds. And, it ends up just being a fight. Not worth it.

Thank you soooooooo much for being the person that you are... and feeling the way you do. Personally, I wish that the world was filled with more people like you who felt like you do. I believe that our time is coming... and that it will be approved eventually. With or without a recall.


Old Post 09-13-2003 08:05 AM
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post #5  quote:

quote:
Originally posted by KJ
Mystic... there is one thing that I've learned on this message board. There are people who agree with you... there are people who don't agree with you. No matter what you say/post... there isn't going to be anyone changing their minds. And, it ends up just being a fight. Not worth it.


Youre probably right.....

I just cant seem to get past this one point......Why not allow people to have the same rights as others are privileged to have?

and another one I cant get past is.........why cause oppression to others when it doesnt personally affect their life?

I just cant get past it.....it drives me crazy!


Old Post 09-13-2003 10:28 AM
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post #6  quote:

You're right.... and I completely agree with you.
But, there are others that don't... and that is there right.
Doesn't mean that I agree with them.. I don't.
But, the more they push to STOP us from having equal rights, the more we will push to have them... the more we will push to do things that piss them off. That's how a lot of people in the gay community feel. They are tired of being treated like second class citizens... and are going to fight for their rights.
It drives me crazy too... trust me. My commitment ceremony next year isn't going to mean anything in the eyes of the state... but to us, after almost 5 years, it means the world.


Old Post 09-13-2003 03:39 PM
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Cool post #7  quote:

quote:
Originally posted by KJ
You're right.... and I completely agree with you.
But, there are others that don't... and that is there right.
Doesn't mean that I agree with them.. I don't.
But, the more they push to STOP us from having equal rights, the more we will push to have them... the more we will push to do things that piss them off. That's how a lot of people in the gay community feel. They are tired of being treated like second class citizens... and are going to fight for their rights.
It drives me crazy too... trust me. My commitment ceremony next year isn't going to mean anything in the eyes of the state... but to us, after almost 5 years, it means the world.


And this is why It fails. bad attudes Do not prevail In winning. It sends the wrong message. Today Priests are convicted For 'Gay' life styles. Next is What positive contributions to society does Gay bring to the table? If there is any..then that should be the stand Gays should make.
In MO, a Gun law just passed. Now you can carry. What was the topic of most bars I have been in lately? Going down to Sue lard and putting an end to the gays. Even the Mayor doesnt want them in St louis. North Side Has a "Bounty" on Gays.yes they do! St louis post dispatch quit writing about "Gays" and the crimes commited against them. I witness an incident during Marti gras, A comment was made to a gay couple that was walking and holding hands. They turned at that person and One of the gays dropped to his knees and un zip his partner and... Right there in the street. "push to piss off"..Well 6 or 7 Of the local brothers Beat these two badly. Both were hospitlized, No arrest made. nothing in the paper. If the two would have just Ignored the comment and kept going..No ass whooping.

As soon as Gays figure a way to "Better" Blend In society they will be accepted. It all about money anyway you slice it.


Old Post 09-13-2003 04:23 PM
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post #8  quote:

quote:
Originally posted by KJ
You're right.... and I completely agree with you.
But, there are others that don't... and that is there right.
Doesn't mean that I agree with them.. I don't.
But, the more they push to STOP us from having equal rights, the more we will push to have them... the more we will push to do things that piss them off. That's how a lot of people in the gay community feel. They are tired of being treated like second class citizens... and are going to fight for their rights.
It drives me crazy too... trust me. My commitment ceremony next year isn't going to mean anything in the eyes of the state... but to us, after almost 5 years, it means the world.


I agree that people should have equal rights, but not at the expense of forcing someone else to break the laws set by the one they call their god.

That is, if marriages for gays are going to be legalized, then don't also make it a law that all the churches have to hold marriage ceremonies for gays, lest they be fined, jailed, or sued. Make it a choice!

Same with businesses. Make it a choice what we support, because if you make it a law, then you are forcing your beliefs on those that don't believe that way. There's a difference between being granted rights, and forcing the rest of us to go along with what we don't believe in.

If you don't like McDonalds, are you going to sue them for not serving Whoppers? No, you just go to Burger King because that's where you can get what you want.

McDonalds cannot legally sell a Whopper because there are laws protecting Burger King. People know you can't force McDonalds to serve something they cant.

It's the same with churches. We have laws to follow, and if our God says no to something, then don't sue us! Go to another church that serves what you want.

I'm only concerned that with the passing of these laws will also come laws that force the rest of us to choose between our laws or our God.


Old Post 09-13-2003 04:25 PM
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post #9  quote:

bit... I don't have a bad attitude!!! That is ALL that I'm saying to you!

Kuka... you and I have already been over this, and I agree with you. I think that the churches that don't want to accept it, don't have to! Period... bottom line!

I still think that we should be able to marry... and I believe that it will pass someday! I'm not going to argue about it... I'm not going to get in a "pissing" contest with someone over this because he thinks we have bad attitudes. There are enough people in this world that cause hate, violence and seperation without me getting in to it.


Old Post 09-13-2003 04:41 PM
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bitwiz44
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Cool post #10  quote:

quote:
Originally posted by KJ
bit... I don't have a bad attitude !!! That is ALL that I'm saying to you!

Kuka... you and I have already been over this, and I agree with you. I think that the churches that don't want to accept it, don't have to! Period... bottom line!

I still think that we should be able to marry... and I believe that it will pass someday! I'm not going to argue about it... I'm not going to get in a "pissing" contest with someone over this because he thinks we have bad attitudes. There are enough people in this world that cause hate, violence and seperation without me getting in to it.


Duuuuuhhhhh....What Pissing Match? Duuuuuhhhh? You stated it did you not? HOW MANY TIMEs must you be told Its not MY opinion BEFORE it sinks in? Observations, Wasnt you taught what this means? Do you Have ANY paper on the wall? EXactly What does your statement mean then? DO you think in your wildest dreams that You or "Gays" will "Force" this down the throats Of Others, that Gays have rights By Pissing them off? Isnt that causing Hate? And FYI KJ YOU are in it. Look at this last post of yours. I was not refering to you..But you jump in it like I was. Since you NOW show you share the same Ill rational thought as Other Gays..your no different that those causing trouble in society. And what positive contribution to society Have you made in your life?

Pot smoking should not be a crime. Legalize it. Same sex marriage..let them. Dont come un welcomed to my door..call first. get rid of false prophets, Break up these phoney churches. Im peach Bush..He lied to us. manatory prison for Attorneys and cops who are corrupt. Ban all members who have used more than one name here. Free Scott Peterson, He did not do it! These are My opinions and BELIEFS!


Last edited by bitwiz44 on 09-13-2003 at 07:33 PM |
Old Post 09-13-2003 07:21 PM
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Cool post #11  quote:

quote:
Originally posted by Marlene Newell
Well, I guess we waited too long for the recall.


Serious Question to you: What is the Mormon view or stand on this topic? What is the stand on Same sex marriage? Are there mormons who are Gay or lesbians?

Please respond honestly. Thanks


Old Post 09-13-2003 07:29 PM
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post #12  quote:

I'm just curious, for those of you who support gay marriage, what do ya'll think about incest, multiple husbands/wives, bestiality, prostitution, etc. Should we have laws against these things, and if so, what is the basis if we are allowing gay couples?

Old Post 09-13-2003 08:59 PM
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post #13  quote:

quote:
Originally posted by bitwiz44


And this is why It fails. bad attudes Do not prevail In winning. It sends the wrong message.

As soon as Gays figure a way to "Better" Blend In society they will be accepted. It all about money anyway you slice it.


Do you hear yourself?

As soon as they blend into society...they will be accepted? What kind of crap is that?

Im sorry, but why does society have such a problem with people being WHO THEY ARE?

Oh...I know....its because of statements like the ones youve made. Its people like this that make it harder for them to blend in.

You would have a bad attitude also if you werent accepted the way you are.....kind of like Malcolm X ......I mean look how far the blacks were pushed until they got the rights they deserved....like any other American deserves.

Unreal!

Did it ever occur to you that they could blend if if some people in this society would just get over it already?


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post #14  quote:

quote:
Originally posted by jrkiv
I'm just curious, for those of you who support gay marriage, what do ya'll think about incest, multiple husbands/wives, bestiality, prostitution, etc. Should we have laws against these things, and if so, what is the basis if we are allowing gay couples?


I wont even go near that question....

Can I ask you...how you managed to take gay marriage and come up with incest, bestiality, prostitution, etc, and even put them in the same category?

Whats up with that????


Old Post 09-13-2003 09:07 PM
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post #15  quote:

quote:
Originally posted by Kukabeara


I agree that people should have equal rights, but not at the expense of forcing someone else to break the laws set by the one they call their god.

That is, if marriages for gays are going to be legalized, then don't also make it a law that all the churches have to hold marriage ceremonies for gays, lest they be fined, jailed, or sued. Make it a choice!

Same with businesses. Make it a choice what we support, because if you make it a law, then you are forcing your beliefs on those that don't believe that way. There's a difference between being granted rights, and forcing the rest of us to go along with what we don't believe in.

If you don't like McDonalds, are you going to sue them for not serving Whoppers? No, you just go to Burger King because that's where you can get what you want.

McDonalds cannot legally sell a Whopper because there are laws protecting Burger King. People know you can't force McDonalds to serve something they cant.

It's the same with churches. We have laws to follow, and if our God says no to something, then don't sue us! Go to another church that serves what you want.

I'm only concerned that with the passing of these laws will also come laws that force the rest of us to choose between our laws or our God.


I wish you would stop throwing out religion in cases like this.....that may be your belief, but to be honest some people feel that since the Bible was written by man that there is a very good possibility that they threw in their own stuff, along with what they say is the word of God. AND since we know that there are books written that were kept out of the bible and still sitting in the Vatican....what was it about those that did not make it in....were they also not the word of God?? Who decided which "words of God" were more important to put into the Bible??

I can answer that................MEN....human beings.....

If God really gave others inspiration....then why did MEN choose not to allow those to be seen?

I know that answer to that one also......BECAUSE THEY PICKED AND CHOOSED FROM THEIR OWN BELIEFS.....

Hmmm....something to think about.


Old Post 09-13-2003 09:13 PM
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post #16  quote:

quote:
Originally posted by bitwiz44
DO you think in your wildest dreams that You or "Gays" will "Force" this down the throats Of Others, that Gays have rights By Pissing them off? Isnt that causing Hate?


No hate came from people who are unaccepting.....

White people hated black people....if they hadnt stood up and fought for themselves and forced their ideals down the throats of others....then they would still be oppressed today.

Hate comes from people who oppress, not from people who are being oppressed, until the time comes where they feel its time to have EQUAL rights.

So is it causing hate? No....hate was already in existance.


Old Post 09-13-2003 09:18 PM
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Marlene Newell
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post #17  quote:

quote:
Originally posted by bitwiz44


Serious Question to you: What is the Mormon view or stand on this topic? What is the stand on Same sex marriage? Are there mormons who are Gay or lesbians?

Please respond honestly. Thanks



Too much anit-Mormon bigotry here for me to fall into that trap again, Bit. I may be a slow learner, but I'm not a total IDIOT. You're an intelligent person. I'm sure you can locate the LDS website and read for yourself what the Church thinks on the subject, if you really do want to know.

I think my PERSONAL opinion on the subject is quite evident by my initial post.


Old Post 09-13-2003 10:19 PM
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post #18  quote:

quote:
Originally posted by bitwiz44


Duuuuuhhhhh....What Pissing Match? Duuuuuhhhh? You stated it did you not? HOW MANY TIMEs must you be told Its not MY opinion BEFORE it sinks in? Observations, Wasnt you taught what this means? Do you Have ANY paper on the wall? EXactly What does your statement mean then? DO you think in your wildest dreams that You or "Gays" will "Force" this down the throats Of Others, that Gays have rights By Pissing them off? Isnt that causing Hate? And FYI KJ YOU are in it. Look at this last post of yours. I was not refering to you..But you jump in it like I was. Since you NOW show you share the same Ill rational thought as Other Gays..your no different that those causing trouble in society. And what positive contribution to society Have you made in your life?

Pot smoking should not be a crime. Legalize it. Same sex marriage..let them. Dont come un welcomed to my door..call first. get rid of false prophets, Break up these phoney churches. Im peach Bush..He lied to us. manatory prison for Attorneys and cops who are corrupt. Ban all members who have used more than one name here. Free Scott Peterson, He did not do it! These are My opinions and BELIEFS!


You know what bit... you aren't even worth my breath to argue with! What a waste of my time!


Old Post 09-13-2003 10:26 PM
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bitwiz44
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Cool post #19  quote:

quote:
Originally posted by mystic


Do you hear yourself? YES. However you cannot.

As soon as they blend into society...they will be accepted? What kind of crap is that?
Im sorry, but why does society have such a problem with people being WHO THEY ARE?

Oh...I know....its because of statements like the ones youve made. Its people like this that make it harder for them to blend in.


Oh I see mystic, You delibertly draw attention to yourself everywhere you go. For such a "Head" and living St louis why are you playing Stupid? Are you going to state the gays in this area Do not draw negitive attention to themselves? Besides when was the last time you was out on the town?

You would have a bad attitude also if you werent accepted the way you are.....kind of like Malcolm X ......I mean look how far the blacks were pushed until they got the rights they deserved....like any other American deserves. Wrong! Thats no where near how.
Unreal!

Did it ever occur to you that they could blend if if some people in this society would just get over it already?
No.... DUH! People get "over" something when they feel not threaten or fear or quit hurting from it..

I "Blend"when out clubbin or casino jumping because I wear the high end clothes, have the High end Cars.. If you wear Rags and Drove a Escort , attention is on you.

Im real sure not all gays Draw attention. Those that do In some ways draw negitive attention from some action. THis is not Blending.
Gay and lesbians are a minority. THis is a society of majority. There are simply things that need changed in the equation of full acceptance for them. Im trying to point that only.


Old Post 09-13-2003 10:33 PM
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bitwiz44
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Cool post #20  quote:

quote:
Originally posted by Marlene Newell



Too much anit-Mormon bigotry here for me to fall into that trap again, Bit. I may be a slow learner, but I'm not a total IDIOT. You're an intelligent person. I'm sure you can locate the LDS website and read for yourself what the Church thinks on the subject, if you really do want to know.

I think my PERSONAL opinion on the subject is quite evident by my initial post.

Yeah..I forgot that sorry....


Old Post 09-13-2003 10:36 PM
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Cool post #21  quote:

quote:
Originally posted by KJ


You know what bit... you aren't even worth my breath to argue with! What a waste of my time!

Ok...I was harsh..Sorry.


Old Post 09-13-2003 10:43 PM
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post #22  quote:

Origniallly posted by Bitwiz44
YES. However you cannot.


Oh...but I do......more than you know!

Originally posted by KJ

You know what bit... you aren't even worth my breath to argue with! What a waste of my time!

I think Ill follow you on this one KJ!


Old Post 09-13-2003 10:53 PM
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Kookaburra
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post #23  quote:

quote:
Originally posted by mystic


I wish you would stop throwing out religion in cases like this.....

Why do you wish this mystic? You are throwing in what you believe. So, only you and KJ are allowed to have an opinion on this subject? That's interesting. Last I checked, there is not a law against believing what the Bible says, and last I check, this forum doesn't ban opinions if they are based on Biblical principles.


that may be your belief, but to be honest some people feel that since the Bible was written by man that there is a very good possibility that they threw in their own stuff, along with what they say is the word of God. AND since we know that there are books written that were kept out of the bible and still sitting in the Vatican....

There is no proof of this. That would mean the Vatican had to exist a few thousand years ago, and was able to hide books from all generations. Did it ever occur to you that the Catholic church has been caught in so many lies before... what's one more to add to it? It's called CONTROL! This control coming from the same ones that molest little boys. This control coming from the same ones that think they are the middle man between people and God. This control coming from the same ones that think dead people intercede for them. Lost books are the least of our worries concerning the Vatican. It's just another deceptive game they play to maintain control.

Sitting in the Vatican... sounds like the Vatican are trying to set themselves up as a super power and leading people to believe they have something of God's that no one else has access to. Pathetic! God says whosever confesses their sins... whosoever accepts His Son as the Christ... those are the ones that are saved. He didn't say... whosover sits on books in the Vatican will be saved....


what was it about those that did not make it in....were they also not the word of God??

Accroding to who? According to the ones who claim they have them? Show them to the world and let them be carbon dated and analyzed! How come the rest of the world hasn't seen them, or been able to test them for their authenticity? Sitting on hidden books.. that's a good plot to gain control of those who don't know their God very well!

Who decided which "words of God" were more important to put into the Bible??

I can answer that................MEN....human beings.....

Are you denying what the Bible says is true? Did it have to be written by God's own hand for you to obey it? If you were a child and your parents wrote a note of instruction to you, but perhaps through someone else, did you have enough faith in your parents to trust and obey? There is absolutely nothing in the Bible that can be discredited. I don't care if God used men to write His words. Do you know how many times I've been encouraged by a human who wrote a letter, who said they prayed about me, and the words in the letter could have only come from God knowing my heart? God inspires, man writes. I guess you don't understand faith that God is who He says He is. Like I said, time will tell and we will all know. The problem is this... those that wrote off the Bible as a book by man have so much to lose if they are mistaken. Those that had faith that it was inspired by God EVEN though written through man, have everything to gain, and nothing to lose.

If God really gave others inspiration....then why did MEN choose not to allow those to be seen?

Who says they even exist? You believe something is hidden from you? They want power, and what better way to deceive someone than to mislead them into thinking they have something from God that the rest of us don't.

I know that answer to that one also......BECAUSE THEY PICKED AND CHOOSED FROM THEIR OWN BELIEFS.....

Hmmm....something to think about.


Yes indeed. Something to think about.

As for throwing religion in this every time it comes up.. what I am doing to fighting hard to protect my rights to reject anything the God I serve says is a sin. If the rest of the world wants to accept it... it's their choice. As long as there are no laws forcing me to comply, it's my choice to reject. If there are ever laws that force me to comply... that's when I will become a lawbreaker because my God's laws come before equal rights and man-made laws. Unless God makes it legal to practice homosexuality, then it's wrong (according to my Bible and the God I serve)




Last edited by Kookaburra on 09-14-2003 at 02:58 AM |
Old Post 09-14-2003 02:54 AM
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post #24  quote:

Why do you wish this mystic? You are throwing in what you believe. So, only you and KJ are allowed to have an opinion on this subject? That's interesting. Last I checked, there is not a law against believing what the Bible says, and last I check, this forum doesn't ban opinions if they are based on Biblical principles .


no....you misunderstand....I said "I wish," not to stop! Please do not misinterpret me...this is a debate...Im not stopping people from their opinions. BUT....my opinion is that the Bible has been written by men who chose to put in what they wanted.

Im not saying that your opinions should be banned, its just that you use the Bible to judge your life but Im pretty certain that the Bible stated that only God is to judge others...anyone else who judges people based on this will also be judged the same way when the time comes. (the wording may not be correct...but I know you know what Im saying).

There is no proof of this. That would mean the Vatican had to exist a few thousand years ago, and was able to hide books from all generations. Did it ever occur to you that the Catholic church has been caught in so many lies before ... what's one more to add to it? It's called CONTROL! This control coming from the same ones that molest little boys. This control coming from the same ones that think they are the middle man between people and God. This control coming from the same ones that think dead people intercede for them. Lost books are the least of our worries concerning the Vatican. It's just another deceptive game they play to maintain control .

So you think the Catholic church throws out lies??? Interesting observation considering Catholic's go by the same book you do.

You think the Catholic Church says they have books not put in the Bible? Why would they do that...they are the ones denying it.

When you say there is no proof of this, that may be true....but on the other hand, there is no proof that there isnt either!


Sitting in the Vatican... sounds like the Vatican are trying to set themselves up as a super power and leading people to believe they have something of God's that no one else has access to. Pathetic! God says whosever confesses their sins... whosoever accepts His Son as the Christ... those are the ones that are saved. He didn't say... whosover sits on books in the Vatican will be saved....

What is this about? The Vatican denys having those books....I think you need to look into who claims they have them before blaming the Pope himself..

Accroding to who? According to the ones who claim they have them? Show them to the world and let them be carbon dated and analyzed! How come the rest of the world hasn't seen them, or been able to test them for their authenticity? Sitting on hidden books.. that's a good plot to gain control of those who don't know their God very well!

According to you...the Catholics. No seriously, its not something thats new hee. This has been a controversy for awhile now....you might want to look into it. And let me just say...if the original Bible was protected all those years, who is to say these werent also? Just a thought.


Are you denying what the Bible says is true? Did it have to be written by God's own hand for you to obey it? If you were a child and your parents wrote a note of instruction to you, but perhaps through someone else, did you have enough faith in your parents to trust and obey? There is absolutely nothing in the Bible that can be discredited. I don't care if God used men to write His words. Do you know how many times I've been encouraged by a human who wrote a letter, who said they prayed about me, and the words in the letter could have only come from God knowing my heart? God inspires, man writes. I guess you don't understand faith that God is who He says He is. Like I said, time will tell and we will all know. The problem is this... those that wrote off the Bible as a book by man have so much to lose if they are mistaken. Those that had faith that it was inspired by God EVEN though written through man, have everything to gain, and nothing to lose.


No I am not.....but Im not stating that I believe everything in there because f the contradictions Ive seen. Sorry...but thats my opinion. I went to Catholic school....Ive been through the religious process. Im in the scientific field Kuka.........God has given me a mind....one in which he himself tells us to use! I believe in God, but I think that men chose to write stories about Jesus and God, who existed WELL before their time. So many miracles happened back then? Why not now? Its just a though...and its my belief. People that dont live by the Bible like you so are not necessarily wrong...you may think so, but thats your choice!


Who says they even exist? You believe something is hidden from you? They want power, and what better way to deceive someone than to mislead them into thinking they have something from God that the rest of us don't

You believe in God dont you? Is he not hidden from you? I mean just because you dont see him doesnt mean in your mind that he doesnt exist right? So just because I cant see these books doesnt mean they dont exist.

As for throwing religion in this every time it comes up.. what I am doing to fighting hard to protect my rights to reject anything the God I serve says is a sin. If the rest of the world wants to accept it... it's their choice. As long as there are no laws forcing me to comply, it's my choice to reject. If there are ever laws that force me to comply... that's when I will become a lawbreaker because my God's laws come before equal rights and man-made laws. Unless God makes it legal to practice homosexuality, then it's wrong (according to my Bible and the God I serve)

But it didnt come up....you brought it up.

So you are trying hard to protect YOUR RIGHTS? So are other people.

No you dont have to accept it.....no one asked you to. You live by the Bible in a strict manner, not all people are like you. But its interesting that you would state "it's their choice. As long as there are no laws forcing me to comply, it's my choice to reject. If there are ever laws that force me to comply... that's when I will become a lawbreaker because my God's laws come before equal rights and man-made laws."

What law is it that is FORCING you to comply? Does the fact that two people of the same sex getting married and having equal rights affect you life in a way that you cannot survive? I think not. I mean really how does their life affect yours? Because you dont want them staying at your bed and breakfast? Put a sign up that says married heterosexuals only....and I hate to tell you but you just lost ALOT of customers....(divorcees, single people in their twenties and thirties who are having sex, (much to your dismay), homosexuals, widows and widowers who have found another person to have a relationship with, etc, etc.)


Not everyone lives by the bible Kuka....Im hate to say that...but they dont.

And I added a line to my signature long ago, so that people understand that what I say is only my opinion...and Im certainly not stopping you from stating yours...please dont ever think that!


Old Post 09-14-2003 03:30 AM
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Marlene Newell
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post #25  quote:

Passing a law that legalizes same sex unions/marriages will materially affect those who believe the practice of that lifestyle is sinful. Two men can then go to a minister of religion and demand that he/she marry them. If they refuse, a suit could be brought. Even if the church wins the suit, the cost of defending itself will have to be born by its congregation. Its congregation will have to suffer the negative publicity of standing by God's word.

There is no such thing as being able to ignore this law. It will be in all our faces, whether we like it or not.

More to the point, the people of California already voted on this issue--and the answer was No, we do not want to legalize same sex unions/marriages. Now the State Assembly is trying to get a law through. That's not being very true to the wishes of the people, in my opinon.

Furthermore, there are legal avenues for every one of the problems this law is supposed to address. This is simply a bald-faced effort on the part of gay activists to back churches into a corner and force them to perform same sex marriages and allow their members to freely engage in homosexual activity without any censure.


Old Post 09-14-2003 06:26 AM
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post #26  quote:

This is the last comment I will make about this...only because I think people know my stance on the subject...

Im sorry.....but if you feel that the law will be shoved in our faces all the time, then I disagree. You say its because they will bring suit against a church for not marrying them. Well I hardly doubt they would go to a church anyways....wouldnt you think they would go to a minister who might support them?

There are many ministers and different religions that would be more than happy to marry same sex couples.

But let me ask you.....if thats the case....and there were no suits ever made against the church....how would their lives affect yours?

Point blank....it wouldnt.

Im amazed at all the people that feel so threatened over this.

Let me put it this way....do their lives affect you now? If not...how will it if this passes? Im talking about YOUR life.....how are you affected personally? (unreligously)....Im talking on an everyday basis how thier lives affect yours materially? Are they taking your possessions away from you? Thats what materialism is after all.


Old Post 09-14-2003 07:41 AM
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post #27  quote:

Mystic, I have no doubt whatsoever that the passage of this law will be used to force churches to accept homosexuality.

You can't separate how a person is affected by something -- material from religious. We are whole beings. What affects me religiously is just as important -- even more important -- than what affects me materially.

But, since it is my state that is passing the law, I am the one that is at risk, not you. I don't mean that disrespectfully, but it is easier to dismiss the dangers sitting in St. Louis MO than in Sunnyvale CA.


Old Post 09-14-2003 08:48 AM
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post #28  quote:

quote:
Originally posted by Marlene Newell
Mystic, I have no doubt whatsoever that the passage of this law will be used to force churches to accept homosexuality.

You can't separate how a person is affected by something -- material from religious. We are whole beings. What affects me religiously is just as important -- even more important -- than what affects me materially.

But, since it is my state that is passing the law, I am the one that is at risk, not you. I don't mean that disrespectfully, but it is easier to dismiss the dangers sitting in St. Louis MO than in Sunnyvale CA.


I take no disrepect from it....you know me better than that....

But to be honest...I wouldnt consider it a "risk" to me. if a law was passed out here....so be it. You say that as if there are no gay people who reside in St. Louis, and thats just not the case. There are plenty of gay people who live in St. Louis. Is there some stigma attached to living in the mid-west that we dont have gay people here?

I also dont see it as "dangerous."

I still dont see how you are at risk? What is risky about this?

Like I said...I hardly doubt that these people would go to a Catholic church or your church to get married.....and its like I said....there are ministers ordained in the gay community that would marry them. Im pretty sure thats the route they would take....

So again, if thats the case...how are you at "risk?"


Old Post 09-14-2003 10:32 AM
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Marlene Newell
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post #29  quote:

I am at risk becaise some activist gays will use this law to force churches to legitimize homosexuality. If you don't believe such activist gays exist, then you will never believe I am at risk.

Old Post 09-14-2003 10:44 AM
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Kookaburra
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post #30  quote:

quote:
Originally posted by mystic
This is the last comment I will make about this...only because I think people know my stance on the subject...

Im sorry.....but if you feel that the law will be shoved in our faces all the time, then I disagree. You say its because they will bring suit against a church for not marrying them. Well I hardly doubt they would go to a church anyways....wouldnt you think they would go to a minister who might support them?

Perhaps some would go to a minister who support them, but let's not forget about a group of money hungry lawyers supporting them. If there's an opportunity to go to a minister that is known NOT to support them, and an attorney wants to cash in on the law, they will take the opportunity to fight the minister and cash in, or get publicity for their cause at the expense of those who do not support the law.

Look at all the lawsuits taking place now against victims of robbers. The robbers enter the victim's property, get hurt, SUE the victim, AND WIN! You want to tell us that the gay community is going to pass up on opportunities to sue, to prove a point, to cash in, to get publicity? How many are you speaking for?


There are many ministers and different religions that would be more than happy to marry same sex couples.

It has more to do with ministers and religions. It has to do with businesses too. We will be forced to comply with the new laws. I think someone in this forum said I will be losing a lot of business if I don't accept gay couples in my business. What I say to that is living on this planet is not about making money at the expense of violating God's laws. It's about standing up for what is right in the sight of God. I don't care about the business... I care about the principle. I absolutely refuse to allow a gay couple to get married in the chapel, or have a honeymoon in a room. It's against the Bible and I won't support it.

But let me ask you.....if thats the case....and there were no suits ever made against the church....how would their lives affect yours?

It's nauseating to even look at them kissing each other in public or holding hands. Waiters and waitresses talk about their gayness to other coworkers and customers IN FRONT of customers who don't want to hear about it. How would you feel pornography legalized and put out in the public? It's nauseating to even think about it, and yet both lifestyles are just as wrong. IT'S GOING TO EFFECT US ALL!

Point blank....it wouldnt.

Oh really? Tell that to the people of Sodom that got their entire city destroyed by God because of their wickedness. If our country passes simular laws, what's going to protect US from God's wrath? Don't tell me it's not going to effect our country. We are a loose cannon on moral issues in this country and lawmakers have forgotten what God says, and instead are going after what people want.

Im amazed at all the people that feel so threatened over this.

Not surprised about this. But coming from a Christian saying this, I'm amazed you are NOT threatened over this.

Let me put it this way....do their lives affect you now?

Of course it does. They have discusting tv shows about gay lifestyles. Allthough I do not watch the shows, there are many many commercials advertising them. We don't want that lifestyle shoved in our faces, on our billboards, in our schools, in our churches, etc. Yes, it effects us now. They have dragged us into the laws and forcing us to get involved to try to fight against them. How can you say it's not effecting us now? Aren't we having this discussion?

If not...how will it if this passes? Im talking about YOUR life.....how are you affected personally? (unreligously)....

You can't say "unreligously" as that is a part of our existence. You see, you want us to accept you the way you are and forget about the differences, and yet you want us to separate who we are.. that is, separate ourselves from our God in order to see if we will be effected in other ways, other than God. That's like what KJ wants. Parts of the Bible she agrees with, but reject what she doesn't agree with. You are asking us to exclude religion concerning homosexuality. We can't. It's God's ways we are fighting for and we can't separate ourselves from Him, nor do we want to.

Im talking on an everyday basis how thier lives affect yours materially?

Now you're grasping at straws. Scroll up to see how we are affected.

Are they taking your possessions away from you? Thats what materialism is after all.

Yes, it's called money as we use our resources to fight the blood thirsty attorney packs out to make the laws in spite of what the majority of this country wants.


Old Post 09-14-2003 03:52 PM
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