DUH! Didn't think of that. They couldn't be from Zion.
But it still raises one of the oldest and most enduring of philosophical and moral questions (one I'm surprised I haven't seen more about on this forum or thread): What kind of people does one select in order to rebuild society?
Originally posted by spjk2k i don't see any "clear view of the back of his head" in any scene. his hair is relatively long, and meets his collar in every scene, which is extremely obvious in the conversation with neo. if anybody knows the exact moment at which you can see that there is no plug on the back of his neck, post it. otherwise, it must be presumed that he was unplugged, based on his statement declaring he slept for the first eleven years of his life.
The head plug is located about 2-3 inches above the collarline, so you can see the spot where his plug would be, but your right about the hair. I was looking for a black circle, didn't see it. It might be under the hair, but it might not be. Revolutions will tell us.
So, since mainly young minds are freed from the matrix, does that mean that the W. brothers are saying something about missing children? In the matrix, children like councilor hamann (at age 11) are the ones that are most able to handle the truth about the matrix. I guess they would end up on milk cartons and grocery store bulletin boards, so they are the ones with the raised consciousness, and they are arguably in a better (more REAL) place: Zion...
yes, but the fact remains that we have no concrete evidence that haman was unplugged or natural, so we can only deduce the answer based on the clues we're given. in this case, when haman says, "i slept the first eleven years of my life", we can only conclude that he was in fact unplugged.
a personal observation:
sometimes directors have the insulting habit of jerking the audience's chain for two hours, only to provide nothing more than a coin toss of a resolution. take "basic instinct", for example... the shot of the weapon under the bed is meant to be a shocking resolution to the fundamental conflict of the story, and in no uncertain terms, the revelation is that she's guilty.
the problem with the resolution is that it could have gone either way and still made perfect sense. in other words, if that last shot wasn't in the movie, the story still works.
this means that any hidden clue gathering, any searching for buried subtext, any double entendre detective work, any script cross-referencing, and generally any paying attention by the audience (based on the assumption that verhoven is treating them with a modicum of intelligence and respect) is essentially a waste of time. the movie merely sought to screw with the audience's minds for a while, and didn't even bother to reward them with the courtesy of a satisfactorily sound finale.
while this particular case was the result of a poorly written screenplay, it is not uncommon for directors to play this game with the audience, torturously leading them towards a manufactured denouement that is nothing more than slap in the face of reason.
i firmly believe that larry and andy are not practitioners of this cinematic witchcraft. there is always some sort of twisted logic to their story that leads inevitably to the perfect conclusion. at some point, in "revolutions", rest assured all of this crap will make sense.
We believe in them like Morpheus believes (or, believed) in Neo.
It's hard to believe that every detail of a film will matter, when so many films include so many details that are simply filler, or to add realism, or eye candy. But so many of the details in these films have turned out, upon careful examination, to be exactly what they had to be, and nothing else, that every new detail seems to demand equal attention and raise equal expectation. Case in point: It just occured to me (as it probably already occured to many others out there) that it was no accident that the Oracle gave Neo a cookie when I thought about what cookies were and could do in comupter terms.
Someone posted a similar detail: Hamman uses the term "feel" to describe Zion asleep ("feels like"...). Why? I'm assuming there's a reason they used that word.
James Joyce once claimed that every word in Ulysses was there for a purpose and could not be replaced by any other word. That's the level of attention to detail that we have here, and that's why this trilogy will become "classics" in film classes decades from now, where students will pay $514 a credit hour to be told all the stuff we're figuring out.
i don't know if there's some convention that we are not allowed to do this or not but i'll mark it clearly: i might have done this before without realising, well the dates of posts are shown anyways
POSTED AFTER WATCHING REVOLUTIONS
At the end, when there is peace and the kid yells out to zion that the war is over he told councillor hamman who seemed absolutely shocked as though he was expecting zion to be destroyed - smells like MWM I really think hamann was controlled by the machines. And since we know neo can jack into the matrix without the jack maybe since hamann slept for 11 years he had strong meditative powers and can do the same to recieve instructions from the machines.
The funniest music video in the world is Eminem - Without Me, when Elvis is sitting on the toilet, reaches in and pulls out a sandwich and eats it - where did that come from? roflmao
Doubt any of the originals are alive given that the current cycle has been going for around 200 years... unless youve got some 216 year old council members... haman didnt look that old .
this minutia has been annoying me for a while now. there are too many unexplained variables for an exhaustive solution. if, as the architect states, each reload is calculably measured by the emergence of the anomoly, how can a matrix cycle possibly last for a hundred years or more? the anomoly is an inherent part of the programming, and neo is thirtyish, so for this theory to work, the program would have to function properly for approximately seventy years before the anomoly appears. since the anomoly's primary code string is inserted at the beginning of the reload each time, this can't be the case.
once this fallacy has been established, the amount of time that has transpired for the humans in the real world is not only negligible, but incorrect and immeasurable.
furthermore, now that we've seen the destruction caused by the attacks on zion, which archie states have become exceedingly efficient, we can see that a considerable amount of real time and manpower would be required to rebuild the city. since only 23 (or 24, if you include the previous one) people are utilized to regenerate the city, it can be reasonably concluded that the machines must provide some modicum of assistance in the task at hand.
this means that the architect must have provided some false information. while it's unlikely that everything he said was a lie, parts of it were obviously not true in order for the scenario in the real world to function properly, and anything not true was obviously designed to influence neo's decision making process concerning zion and trinity (the choice presented to him).
yeah! spjk2k sounds good, y'know it would be so easy for the machines to reboot the zion matrix, or just have a few old cities lined up for the next zions.
doc_uk haman could still be controlled by the machines if zion is a matrix with beside or outside the matrix and everyone is still jacked in.
spjk2k as you said the architect has to be lying about a few things.
why would the machines have a digger like that that infiltrates the dock and then rely on sentinels? we know that the machines know what nuclear fusion is! why not pack a nuke into the digger so when it breaches the dock it blows - would destry the dock and a s/load more - plus the electromagnetic pulse (EMP) would knock out their defences after which the sentinels could finish off the city or just pop another nuke that would be damn efficient. we saw how crap the zionites were at destroying the diggers.
the lies of the architect were there to pull zion and trinity over neo's eyes to blind him from the truth that zion is not real, something morpheus alluded to at the end of revolutions: "is this real?"
spjk2k do I sense you're starting to think about MWM/MOM/ALL MATRIX?
The funniest music video in the world is Eminem - Without Me, when Elvis is sitting on the toilet, reaches in and pulls out a sandwich and eats it - where did that come from? roflmao
If the machines put a nuke through... they could only take the dock and then the EMP would take out a load of machines.
If they somehow got a nuke through into Zion... Zion wouldnt be able to be reused and they run the risk of killing everyone and screwing up their cycle.
The funniest music video in the world is Eminem - Without Me, when Elvis is sitting on the toilet, reaches in and pulls out a sandwich and eats it - where did that come from? roflmao
06-20-2003 12:43 AM
Didn't think of that. They couldn't be from Zion.
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