I don't believe what I have described is inaccurate. There may have been a motive to pull away from the scene to avoid getting pulled down with the ship. But alot of the motive for pulling away was to avoid getting mobbed and swamped by desperate people in the water. There was indeed a large, tightly clustered mass of people in the water and they were not dispersed by current or wind. There was no wind at all and the ocean was as smooth as a plate of glass. It was said to be exceptionally calm.
I did not mean to suggest that the boats only had one person in each. They had many people in them, but even if they were completely full, there would be the possibility of taking one additional person onboard, and thus, saving a life.
You are correct that some boats were not filled before they were lowered and they had room for several more people. It would have been better to get as many people into them as possible before lowering them. But the issue I am talking about is what happened once those partly filled boats got into the water amidst lots of people who were in the water.
Personally, I don't think the people in the boats were immoral by declining to rescue everybody they could. They were convinced that they themselves as well as whoever they might rescue would all drown if they attempted a rescue, so they made the best choice under those circumstance.
So what would you have done under these circumstances if you had control of a lifeboat?
I stated what I would do. I would look for any way to help people. If there wasn't a way to save anyone else without putting everyone in the boat at risk then you leave. It would suck, and even if there wasn't anything to be done I imagine there would be a huge weight of guilt on my conscience.
I've never been in a situation like this particular one, so I can't say. As I stated above however, if their motives for pulling away was to ensure the safety of the passengers they already had, then I find no fault there.
Obviously there wouldn't be a LARGE gap between people, but there would almost certainly be "stragglers" on the outer edges of the mass of people that had 10 maybe 20 yards between them. When a person treads water, they'll inadvertantly move in the water. Also, any body of water has some manner of current to it, even a glass top ocean moves under the surface.
Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed, to me:
I lift my lamp beside the golden door.
Only you know how you feel. I'm not going to argue how you should feel. Everyone is different.
As you shouldn't argue with that unless you are able to just give away what you don't have to others...
Drug companies are as much a part of our society as you are. We work for drug companies. We buy drugs. They make profits which effect our economy.
Yeah...I know that. BUT what does that have to do with the people that DONT run those companies getting drugs to those that don't have them? Exactly what kind of pull do you think the middle class has? From what I've been able to decipher in my 41 years of life, is that the middle class has absolutely no pull!
Do you think there is pressure being forced on people, creating a guilt that some people are unable to alleviate?
What world are you living in? Do you think that people in this society don't try placing guilt on others? This happens all the time! I think this is just one of those examples. People trying to make others feel guilty even if they cannot do for others. I am sure that its not a matter of not wanting to do but some just cannot do...so why should others make them try to feel guilty for something they cannot do? Its ridiculous....but they will still try to make them feel bad regardless. I think thats pathetic, but its reality. I dont feel guilty because I cant give to a stranger. Im too busy giving to my family. So if someone tried to make me feel guilty, I just say whatever. I have to live for me and my family. If someday I can give, then I will but I cant give something that I dont have. I am certain that the majority are in the same boat as me.
I'm sure I enjoy as much as most people living very well in the West, but I can't unlearn what I've learnt about what is happening in much of the world. Society, countries and the world in general can move in a direction where there is either more or less equality. But for the last 30 years the gap between rich and poor countries has widened, and with that come the inevitable problems.
I agree...but the middle class has to allow the rich to do something about it. The rich are running the middle class into the ground so I feel slapped in the face when they hold their hand out to me looking for more. I give the rich enough....all middle class and poor people do. I guarantee that the people running those poor countries are living quite well. As Thomas Moore said "If you suffer your people to be ill-educated and their manners corrupted from infancy, and then punish them for those crimes to which their first education disposed them, what else is to be concluded, sire, but that you first make thieves and then punish them?" Well, the same can be said of the poor.
Of course thats just my opinion....I could be wrong. (Dennis Miller)
"You might be the toughest little whacker. . .but in my world, you're about as worrisome as a cloudy day." (Dutch Dooley)
mystic said this in post #32 :Exactly what kind of pull do you think the middle class has? From what I've been able to decipher in my 41 years of life, is that the middle class has absolutely no pull!
The leverage the average person has with a large corporation may be negligible, but it is not nothing. The fear of bad publicity makes companies behave, and there has never been a better time for people to have access to and spread information which 20 years ago would have been impossible to find.
quote:
I dont feel guilty because I cant give to a stranger. Im too busy giving to my family. So if someone tried to make me feel guilty, I just say whatever.
If you're comfortable with that then you're comfortable with that and there's no need to be defensive.
quote:
The rich are running the middle class into the ground so I feel slapped in the face when they hold their hand out to me looking for more.
The rich are reaping the rewards of 30 years of this economic experiment called neoliberalism, free maket economics, laissez faire capitalism, etc. Whatever it's called, it still a man made system that either we run or we accept that it runs us. It's not a religion and it's not set in stone. It can and no doubt will change.
h@ts said this in post #33 : The leverage the average person has with a large corporation may be negligible, but it is not nothing. The fear of bad publicity makes companies behave, and there has never been a better time for people to have access to and spread information which 20 years ago would have been impossible to find.
I dont necessarily disagree...the problem is that spreading "bad" information has never done much. Especially if the people spreading the bad things need access to some of those drugs that the companies make. Its a lose - lose situation.
If you're comfortable with that then you're comfortable with that and there's no need to be defensive.
I am in no way being defensive. Even though I thought I made it clear, I am in no way speaking for myself. I am speaking for the majority who are more like me than not.
The rich are reaping the rewards of 30 years of this economic experiment called neoliberalism, free maket economics, laissez faire capitalism, etc. Whatever it's called, it still a man made system that either we run or we accept that it runs us. It's not a religion and it's not set in stone. It can and no doubt will change.
HELLO!!! The rich have been running the world for a hell of a lot longer than 30 years! Go back to the beginning of history...
Of course thats just my opinion....I could be wrong. (Dennis Miller)
"You might be the toughest little whacker. . .but in my world, you're about as worrisome as a cloudy day." (Dutch Dooley)
mystic said this in post #34 : I dont necessarily disagree...the problem is that spreading "bad" information has never done much. Especially if the people spreading the bad things need access to some of those drugs that the companies make. Its a lose - lose situation.
Ideas have to originate from somewhere and from someone. Many grass roots movements have become massively influencial. The whole enviromental movement has now become popular and widespread. This is ordinary people plugging away at ideas some people would rather no-one noticed.
quote:
HELLO!!! The rich have been running the world for a hell of a lot longer than 30 years! Go back to the beginning of history...
I'm talking about the the economic direction we've been moving in over the last 30 years, which has widened the gap between rich and poor and benefitted the rich far more than any other group in society. Also because the rich tend to own all the various forms of the popular media they are not going to state this fact too obviously.
Wealth will always be accumulated by a small elite, but if inequality rises like it has been, then clearly the economic system has been skewed and geared towards benefitting that group, and everyone else would be stupid to let it continue unchecked and unabated.
h@ts said this in post #35 : Ideas have to originate from somewhere and from someone. Many grass roots movements have become massively influencial. The whole enviromental movement has now become popular and widespread. This is ordinary people plugging away at ideas some people would rather no-one noticed.
Maybe so...maybe they have that kind of time, maybe they are in a position to do so, etc. BUT there are more people that do not have the opportunity or time to devote when they are hard pressed in doing other things that they need to do. Dont get me wrong, if someone finds an answer...then thats great but until crime stops and I can stop working almost 12 hour days then I will have to rely on others to do just that.
I'm talking about the the economic direction we've been moving in over the last 30 years, which has widened the gap between rich and poor and benefitted the rich far more than any other group in society. Also because the rich tend to own all the various forms of the popular media they are not going to state this fact too obviously.
Wealth will always be accumulated by a small elite, but if inequality rises like it has been, then clearly the economic system has been skewed and geared towards benefitting that group, and everyone else would be stupid to let it continue unchecked and unabated.
I agree with that last statement. I dont however think that the gap has widened from another era to this era. Poor is poor. Rich is rich. It all a matter of the cost of life. Though, I will admit that I believe the middle class are feeling the effects more than ever before.
Of course thats just my opinion....I could be wrong. (Dennis Miller)
"You might be the toughest little whacker. . .but in my world, you're about as worrisome as a cloudy day." (Dutch Dooley)
There was a study done where people were polled about their reactions to two hypothetical situations: the footbridge dilemma and the trolley dilemma. It's explained here: http://www.princeton.edu/~paw/archi.../features1.html (first section of the page)
More people were more likely to "let [someone] die" (someone's dying because you pushed a button) than with killing (someone's dying because you pushed them off a bridge). The idea was put forth that someone dying as a consequence of your actions a couple steps removed didn't register as much on the human brain as "my fault" than dealing the actual killing blow and having them die then and there.
Just food for thought.
"You're disturbing...yet intriguing. Like couscous. I'm gonna call you Couscous from now on."
05-17-2007 10:20 PM
