Who knows why people vote for who they vote for? Hamas are certainly not a one policy party.
And as I've pointed out many times, many Israeli's aim was and is to continue what they have succesfully achieved for decades (as oppossed to merely threaten it) which is to actually destroy a Palastinian state, and any chance of one ever coming into being. I therefore presume there are extremists on both sides, and don't defend either, including Hamas' policy of getting rid of the state of Israel.
I don't think it's what you meant, but only the US and Israel recognise the "legitimacy of the occupation".
As for Hamas, their position has changed from time to time and they have said they would recognise Israel. Either you believe their position is set in stone, so utterly hopeless, or it can change. Who knows the future so to believe things cannot change is a deeply pessimistic view.
Look at Iran, their offers to recognise Israel have been completely ignored by President Bush and the Israeli government. Why? And why is tough-guy "bring em on" Bush afraid to debate with Ahmadinejad?
Hamas is isn't really political in its bent. It's fundamentally religious. They can be politically pragmatic from time to time, but they're essentially relgious fanatics. Everyone in the middle east knows what they stand for. Voting for Hamas is voting for its core tenet - the destruction of the state of Israel, as part of an Islamic jihad.
As for Israel wishing the same on the Palestianian state, they've done an awfully poor job of it, considering they're capable of pretty much annihilating the Palestinians whenever they desire. Yet in spite of Israel's vast military superiority, somehow the Palestinians remain a thorn in their sides.
A more plausible assertion is that there is a range of views among Israelis from most conciliatory to most extreme, and the views that hold sway in their government range from moderately conciliatory to moderately hardline. As for the Palestinians? I'm struggling to find much moderation there. I know it exists. It just doesn't seem to hold much sway.
- woolfe
The best lack all conviction, while the worst are filled with passionate intensity.
woolfe99 said this in post #16 :
Hamas is isn't really political in its bent. It's fundamentally religious. They can be politically pragmatic from time to time, but they're essentially relgious fanatics. Everyone in the middle east knows what they stand for. Voting for Hamas is voting for its core tenet - the destruction of the state of Israel, as part of an Islamic jihad.
No doubt that's a vote winner, but it's obviously not the only reason. Corruption was certainly an issue, and building hospitals and schools and looking after other social problems can't have hindered their success. And it's not uncommon for resistance/terrorist organisation to eventually beome the ruling power.
Also Hamas gets much of it's funding from Iran, and so I presume Iran has a say in its direction politicaly, and Iran offered to recognise Israel in 92 and was ignored.
quote:
As for Israel wishing the same on the Palestianian state, they've done an awfully poor job of it, considering they're capable of pretty much annihilating the Palestinians whenever they desire.
Poor job? There is no Palastinian state. If Israel continue to cut up and divide more Palastinian land there may never be a viable state, thus wiping Palastine off the map. So as far as extremists go, those Jews who will not accept a Palastinian state are winning hands down.
quote:
Yet in spite of Israel's vast military superiority, somehow the Palestinians remain a thorn in their sides.
Of course they do and that is the problem of occupation.
quote:
As for the Palestinians? I'm struggling to find much moderation there. I know it exists. It just doesn't seem to hold much sway.
You're probably right, but Hamas are there and elected and not going to go away. And do we actually think punishing the Palastinian people for voting for a party we won't accept is going to change Palastinian's minds? It's more likely to do the opposite - make Hamas stronger.
Was there even an attempt by the US to speak to them after they won the election? Probably not. And where are we now? Palatinians being pounded in Gaza and Hezbollah holding massive rallies in Lebanon - and possibly becoming a strong democratic force there - after Israel failed to dent them in the war.
"America is not what's wrong with the world. The struggle we are in is too important to have the luxury of returning to that old mentality of 'Blame America First.'" —Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld
Leftist "intellectuals" in America now look to Europe—steeped for years in anti-American propaganda from the Soviet Union.
why can't West Bank and its inhabitants be incorporated into Israel?
question one - hamas believes that they and other muslims are the people in the bible that were there before the jews some 5000 years ago
same as above for question two.
something that i do not expect anyone on this site to understand, less they are jewish, is the fact that the muslim will not stop until all of israel is theirs. they believe it was theirs 5000 years ago even when they have no history record of it.
question one - hamas believes that they and other muslims are the people in the bible that were there before the jews some 5000 years ago
White Christian supremacists beleive they are Gods chosen people and the Jews are devils. Jews believe they are the chosen people. Christians, Hindus, all religions claim they are the ones. Stupid hey?
quote:
same as above for question two.
something that i do not expect anyone on this site to understand, less they are jewish, is the fact that the muslim will not stop until all of israel is theirs. they believe it was theirs 5000 years ago even when they have no history record of it.
What's the difference between Muslims and Jews and Christians anyway? They all believe in the same god, they all come from teh same area, they all live together in peace from time to time.
White Christian supremacists beleive they are Gods chosen people and the Jews are devils. Jews believe they are the chosen people. Christians, Hindus, all religions claim they are the ones. Stupid hey?
I have no idea where the hell you get your stuff but you really need to stop believing some of the crap you read. i have never met any "white christian" or any other race or creed that thought they were a god.
if your talking about what i think you are, those people were not/are not christians or believers of any faith save but their own
Dreamzwalker said this in post #21 : if your talking about what i think you are, those people were not/are not christians or believers of any faith save but their own
Who do you think I'm talking about, you don't say? Aryan Nations, Christian Identity, Church of Jesus Christ-Christian, the Klu Klux Klan?
h@ts wrote
Ariel Sharon addressing a meeting of the Tsomet Party, 1998: "there is no Zionism, colonialization, or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands" - Agence France Presse, 15 November 1998
It’s funny how you can find quotes like these in abundance on mostly pro-Arab websites.
The quote was made by Sharon in 1977. Anyone reading your quote would assume it was made in 1998.
Secondly, it was at a time of turmoil and Sharon was referring to the land they captured in 1967 during the six day war. Hostilities were still high during the 70’s and if I posted all the quotes made by Arab leaders to the annihilation of Israel, there wouldn’t be room in this thread for much else.
By the time Sharon was elected, his views changed somewhat as did many Arab leaders.
quote:
What does that mean? When? Where? How?
This was in reply to my saying that Hamas has systematically turned back years of negotiations in one day.
What this means is this. It took much struggle and violence to get both sides, Israel and Palestinians, to agree to some kind of map to peace. Through 3rd party negotiations and years of failure, finally a plan was in place and attempts were being made to execute it. Sharon pulled out of Gaza (with Hamas celebrating in the streets as if they forced them out) and progress was being made. There was a clear goal in sight for both sides.
Now Hamas takes over and scraps all past negotiations, declaring they wouldn’t recognize Israel and refuse to give up bombings. Now we’re back at square one with Hamas infiltrating into Israel and kidnapping soldiers when Israel was withdrawing and working on a path toward a 2 state solution. There was no provocation for Hamas to do this other than old axes to grind.
So ask yourself, since you want to blame the west for taking their own monies away from such a government, what has changed to bring about the tensions we see today? If you have an honest bone in your body, you would admit that the hindrance here is Hamas.
quote:
Who do you blame for the collective punishment meted out to the Palestinians because they democratically elected Hamas into power?
The Palestinian people voted Hamas into power. So the west is to simply support Hamas’ efforts to continue bombings and not recognize Israel with West funding?
Your contention that because Hamas was “democratically elected” that this somehow trumps their ideology to destroy Israel is absurdity. They were given a choice to continue the peace initiative or to continue their ideology. They chose the latter.
quote:
officially"? who gives a toss whether it's official or not?
Quite frankly h@ts, you are either too jaded or to stubborn to see the truth. Personally I believe it’s both.
quote:
Are you saying it's best to ignore a "hint at it", or any possibility of a beginning to talks and peace?
What I’m saying is this. When Hamas entered the ring of politics and government, they can’t have it both ways. Either they are a government or a terrorist organization. If they are a government then they have to recognize their neighbors.
No vague hints, no maybes, no truces and no sending bombers into Israel but unequivocal recognition. If the Palestinian people want a terrorist org to run their society then they must accept the consequences that come with their decision.
quote:
What rubbish. Have you ever lived under an occupying military force?
And how did this “occupation” come about h@ts? The checkpoints, the raids, the military presence didn’t show up suddenly but the results of years of violence between the two.
Since the war of 1948, Arab militants had been sneaking across the border and killing Israeli civilians. This is largely the reason why Sharon went through Qibya like he did in 1953 and this is exactly why Israel has the WB and use to occupy Gaza.
quote:
So now you do think that a hint at a diplomatic solution should be looked at rather than ignored?
It’s almost as if I’m repeating myself. I posted more than once that Palestinians need to try a new approach other than violence because it’s not working for them so yeah, I say give diplomacy the same effort they gave the violence.
quote:
No! There are Israelis that have successfully prevented a Palestinian state, and may continue to make sure that one never exists,
And all of this is the fault of Israel? So the years of refusals to recognize Israel and accept a Jewish state, wars, militant excursions and attacks on Israeli civilians had nothing to do with it? But what else could the Palestinians do right?
Have you ever asked yourself h@ts why in the history of this earth, have a refugee camp existed for more than half a century? Why haven’t these same Arabs absorbed Palestinians into their societies? I know it’s a slight digression but I think it speaks to the heart of the Arab agenda.
Governor Bush on Kosovo war exit strategy in 99 ” Victory means exit strategy, and it's important for the President to explain to us what the exit strategy is."
President Bush on Iraq war exit strategy from 2003 to 2008. “ “
oneofpeace said this in post #24 : It’s almost as if I’m repeating myself. I posted more than once that Palestinians need to try a new approach other than violence because it’s not working for them so yeah, I say give diplomacy the same effort they gave the violence.
And let me repeat for the 3 or 4 time: you say "Palestinians need to try a new approach other than violence" but when Hamas and Iran offer truces, peace, recognition of the stat of Israel, you so easily agree with the US and Israeli governments stance of instantly dismissing such offers or ignoring them altogether.
Theres a new site just about palestine where people discuss topics like these. Fateh and Hamas topics are already getting high. NO REGISTRATION REQUIRED JUST POST!!!
go to (link removed) or if you want to go straight to the forums, go to (link removed)
"America is not what's wrong with the world. The struggle we are in is too important to have the luxury of returning to that old mentality of 'Blame America First.'" —Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld
Leftist "intellectuals" in America now look to Europe—steeped for years in anti-American propaganda from the Soviet Union.
09-23-2006 08:54 AM
