Just admit it now... I Irapsak, have never read the Quran or Sira or Takrith, or Hadith, but I profess to know the truth. PLEASE research this topic HERE. The thought of repeating myself on everyone of those errors you posted is painful.
Pick a topic. Jihad IS more important than prayer in Islam, and therefore a pillar to say the least. 2. Islam means submit. period. 3. The statement "Extremist groups who claim to follow Islam are no more representative of Islam than David Koresh is of Christianit" is absolutely false. One has scriptural support and the other doesn't. End of story.4. Muhammed was the most evil man in history, and was a terrorist himself.
Oh, and your sources, are the ones that are opinion, conjecture, and speculation. Mine are the eyewitnesses- the oldest sources known to man. The only thing upon which we can draw ANY answers from regarding Islam. I suggest you stop telling me to pull my head out of you know where and start discussing this in a rational way. Especially since you are the one in a no win position. This is why I suggested you check my past debates.
You know nothing of the Koran.
How are my scources questionable in the least?
Yours are simply people who are BIASED.
You cant believe everything you hear.
Go ahead, and in it , find a literal interpretation of it promoting violence.
You didnt even respond to the facts. THEY PREACH PEACE AND EQUALITY. A FEW HAPPEN TO MISINTERPRET IT TO CREATE NEGATIVITY. JUST AS IN ANY AND EVERY CULTURE AND RELGION.
You look like a complete moron. Claiming that Muslims cant be peaceful. Why dont you go grab your gun and sit on the rocking chair on your porch, you hick. Youre closed minded and only open to your own views. Which is the definition of someone whose views should only be seen as opinions and NOT be learned from.
Expose myself? What are you, thirteen?
Listen. Youre uneducated and your debates are
purely biased. Youre not open to being educated on the subject,
you're only open to argument. You are the exact person I avoid on the forums. Learn more on the subject. Until then , I refuse to reply to your posts. I'll take my intelligence and know on the subject elsewhere, where someone with real knowledge will debate with me.
irapsak said this in post #20 :
Go ahead, and in it , find a literal interpretation of it promoting violence.
Here's a couple. If this doesn't do, I will post another 500. The only problems I have are that this forum only allows 15000 words at a a time.
Bukhari:V4B52N50 “The Prophet said, ‘A single endeavor of fighting in Allah’s Cause is better than the world and whatever is in it.’”
Qur’an 9:88 “The Messenger and those who believe with him, strive hard and fight with their wealth and lives in Allah’s Cause.”
Qur’an 9:5 “Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.”
Qur’an 9:112 “The Believers fight in Allah’s Cause, they slay and are slain, kill and are killed.”
Qur’an 9:29 “Fight those who do not believe until they all surrender, paying the protective tax in submission.”
Ishaq:325 “Muslims, fight in Allah’s Cause. Stand firm and you will prosper. Help the Prophet, obey him, give him your allegiance, and your religion will be victorious.”
Qur’an 8:39 “Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah.”
Qur’an 8:39 “So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief [non-Muslims]) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone (in the whole world).”
Ishaq:324 “He said, ‘Fight them so that there is no more rebellion, and religion, all of it, is for Allah only. Allah must have no rivals.’”
Qur’an 9:14 “Fight them and Allah will punish them by your hands, lay them low, and cover them with shame. He will help you over them.”
Ishaq:300 “I am fighting in Allah’s service. This is piety and a good deed. In Allah’s war I do not fear as others should. For this fighting is righteous, true, and good.”
Ishaq:587 “Our onslaught will not be a weak faltering affair. We shall fight as long as we live. We will fight until you turn to Islam, humbly seeking refuge. We will fight not caring whom we meet. We will fight whether we destroy ancient holdings or newly gotten gains. We have mutilated every opponent. We have driven them violently before us at the command of Allah and Islam. We will fight until our religion is established. And we will plunder them, for they must suffer disgrace.”
Qur’an 8:65 “O Prophet, urge the faithful to fight. If there are twenty among you with determination they will vanquish two hundred; if there are a hundred then they will slaughter a thousand unbelievers, for the infidels are a people devoid of understanding.”
Ishaq:326 “Prophet exhort the believers to fight. If there are twenty good fighters they will defeat two hundred for they are a senseless people. They do not fight with good intentions nor for truth.”
Bukhari:V4B52N63 “A man whose face was covered with an iron mask came to the Prophet and said, ‘Allah’s Apostle! Shall I fight or embrace Islam first?’ The Prophet said, ‘Embrace Islam first and then fight.’ So he embraced Islam, and was martyred. Allah’s Apostle said, ‘A Little work, but a great reward.’”
Bukhari:V4B53N386 “Our Prophet, the Messenger of our Lord, ordered us to fight you till you worship Allah alone or pay us the Jizyah tribute tax in submission. Our Prophet has informed us that our Lord says: ‘Whoever amongst us is killed as a martyr shall go to Paradise to lead such a luxurious life as he has never seen, and whoever survives shall become your master.’”
Muslim:C34B20N4668 “The Messenger said: ‘Anybody who equips a warrior going to fight in the Way of Allah is like one who actually fights. And anybody who looks after his family in his absence is also like one who actually fights.”
Qur’an 9:38 “Believers, what is the matter with you, that when you are asked to go forth and fight in Allah’s Cause you cling to the earth? Do you prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? Unless you go forth, He will afflict and punish you with a painful doom, and put others in your place.”
Qur’an 9:123 “Fight the unbelievers around you, and let them find harshness in you.”
Qur’an 8:72 “Those who accepted Islam and left their homes to fight in Allah’s Cause with their possessions and persons, and those who gave (them) asylum, aid, and shelter, those who harbored them—these are allies of one another. You are not responsible for protecting those who embraced Islam but did not leave their homes [to fight] until they do so.” [Another translation reads:] “You are only called to protect Muslims who fight.”
Muslim:C9B1N31 “I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify to the fact that there is no god but Allah, and believe in me (that) I am the Messenger and in all that I have brought.” Bukhari:V9B84N59 “Whoever says this will save his property and life from me.’”
Qur’an 8:73 “The unbelieving infidels are allies. Unless you (Muslims) aid each other (fighting as one united block to make Allah’s religion victorious), there will be confusion and mischief. Those who accepted Islam, left their homes to fight in Allah’s Cause (al-Jihad), as well as those who give them asylum, shelter, and aid—these are (all) Believers: for them is pardon and bountiful provision (in Paradise).”
Tabari IX:69 “Arabs are the most noble people in lineage, the most prominent, and the best in deeds. We were the first to respond to the call of the Prophet. We are Allah’s helpers and the viziers of His Messenger. We fight people until they believe in Allah. He who believes in Allah and His Messenger has protected his life and possessions from us. As for one who disbelieves, we will fight him forever in the Cause of Allah. Killing him is a small matter to us.”
Qur’an 48:16 “Say (Muhammad) to the wandering desert Arabs who lagged behind: ‘You shall be invited to fight against a people given to war with mighty prowess. You shall fight them until they surrender and submit. If you obey, Allah will grant you a reward, but if you turn back, as you did before, He will punish you with a grievous torture.”
Qur’an 48:22 “If the unbelieving infidels fight against you, they will retreat. (Such has been) the practice (approved) of Allah in the past: no change will you find in the ways of Allah.”
Qur’an 47:4 “When you clash with the unbelieving Infidels in battle (fighting Jihad in Allah’s Cause), smite their necks until you overpower them, killing and wounding many of them. At length, when you have thoroughly subdued them, bind them firmly, making (them) captives. Thereafter either generosity or ransom (them based upon what benefits Islam) until the war lays down its burdens. Thus are you commanded by Allah to continue carrying out Jihad against the unbelieving infidels until they submit to Islam.”
Qur’an 47:31 “And We shall try you until We know those among you who are the fighters.”
Tabari VI:138 “Those present at the oath of Aqabah had sworn an allegiance to Muhammad. It was a pledge of war against all men. Allah had permitted fighting.”
Tabari VI:139 “Allah had given his Messenger permission to fight by revealing the verse ‘And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is all for Allah.’” [Qur’an 8:39]
Qur’an 9:19 “Do you make the giving of drink to pilgrims, or the maintenance of the Mosque, equal to those who fight in the Cause of Allah? They are not comparable in the sight of Allah. Those who believe, and left their homes, striving with might, fighting in Allah’s Cause with their goods and their lives, have the highest rank in the sight of Allah.”
Ishaq:550 “The Muslims met them with their swords. They cut through many arms and skulls. Only confused cries and groans could be heard over our battle roars and snarling.”
Qur’an 5:94 “Believers, Allah will make a test for you in the form of a little game in which you reach out for your lances. Any who fails this test will have a grievous punishment.”
Ishaq:578 “Crushing the heads of the infidels and splitting their skulls with sharp swords, we continually thrust and cut at the enemy. Blood gushed from their deep wounds as the battle wore them down. We conquered bearing the Prophet’s fluttering war banner. Our cavalry was submerged in rising dust, and our spears quivered, but by us the Prophet gained victory.”
Tabari IX:22 “The Prophet continued to besiege the town, fighting them bitterly.”
Tabari IX:25 “By Allah, I did not come to fight for nothing. I wanted a victory over Ta’if so that I might obtain a slave girl from them and make her pregnant.”
Tabari IX:82 “The Messenger sent Khalid with an army of 400 to Harith [a South Arabian tribe] and ordered him to invite them to Islam for three days before he fought them. If they were to respond and submit, he was to teach them the Book of Allah, the Sunnah of His Prophet, and the requirements of Islam. If they should decline, then he was to fight them.”
Tabari IX:88 “Abdallah Azdi came to the Messenger, embraced Islam, and became a good Muslim. Allah’s Apostle invested Azdi with the authority over those who had surrendered and ordered him to fight the infidels from the tribes of Yemen. Azdi left with an army by the Messenger’s command. The Muslims besieged them for a month. Then they withdrew, setting a trap. When the Yemenites went in pursuit, Azdi was able to inflict a heavy loss on them.”
Ishaq:530 “Get out of his way, you infidel unbelievers. Every good thing goes with the Apostle. Lord, I believe in his word. We will fight you about its interpretations as we have fought you about its revelation with strokes that will remove heads from shoulders and make enemies of friends.”
Muslim:C9B1N29 “Command For Fighting Against People So Long As They Do Not Profess That There Is No Ilah (God) But Allah And Muhammad Is His Messenger: When the Messenger breathed his last and Bakr was appointed Caliph, many Arabs chose to become apostates [rejected Islam]. Abu Bakr said: ‘I will definitely fight against anyone who stops paying the Zakat tax, for it is an obligation. I will fight against them even to secure the cord used for hobbling the feet of a camel which they used to pay if they withhold it now.’ Allah had justified fighting against those who refused to pay Zakat.”
Muslim:C9B1N33 “The Prophet said: ‘I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and they establish prostration prayer, and pay Zakat. If they do it, their blood and property are protected.’”
Muslim:C10B1N176 “Muhammad (may peace be upon him) sent us in a raiding party. We raided Huraqat in the morning. I caught hold of a man and he said: ‘There is no god but Allah,’ but I attacked him with a spear anyway. It once occurred to me that I should ask the Apostle about this. The Messenger said: ‘Did he profess “There is no god but Allah,” and even then you killed him?’ I said: ‘He made a profession out of the fear of the weapon I was threatening him with.’ The Prophet said: ‘Did you tear out his heart in order to find out whether it had professed truly or not?’”
Muslim:C20B1N4597 “The Prophet said at the conquest of Mecca: ‘There is no migration now, but only Jihad, fighting for the Cause of Islam. When you are asked to set out on a Jihad expedition, you should readily do so.’”
Muslim:C28B20N4628 “Allah has undertaken to provide for one who leaves his home to fight for His Cause and to affirm the truth of His word; Allah will either admit him to Paradise or will bring him back home with his reward and booty.”
Muslim:C28B20N4629 “The Messenger said: ‘One who is wounded in the Way of Allah—and Allah knows best who is wounded in His Way—will appear on the Day of Judgment with his wound still bleeding. The color (of its discharge) will be blood, (but) its smell will be musk.’”
Muslim: C34B20N4652-3 “The Merit Of Jihad And Of Keeping Vigilance Over The Enemy: A man came to the Holy Prophet and said: ‘Who is the best of men?’ He replied: ‘A man who fights staking his life and spending his wealth in Allah’s Cause.’”
Qur’an 4:76 “Those who believe fight in the Cause of Allah.”
Qur’an 4:77 “Have you not seen those to whom it was said: Withhold from fighting, perform the prayer and pay the zakat. But when orders for fighting were issued, a party of them feared men as they ought to have feared Allah. They say: ‘Our Lord, why have You ordained fighting for us, why have You made war compulsory?’”
Qur’an 4:78 “Wherever you are, death will find you, even if you are in towers strong and high! So what is wrong with these people, that they fail to understand these simple words?”
Qur’an 4:84 “Then fight (Muhammad) in Allah’s Cause. Incite the believers to fight with you.”
Qur’an 4:94 “Believers, when you go abroad to fight wars in Allah’s Cause, investigate carefully, and say not to anyone who greets you: ‘You are not a believer!’ Coveting the chance profits of this life (so that you may despoil him). With Allah are plenteous spoils and booty.”
Qur’an 4:95 “Not equal are believers who sit home and receive no hurt and those who fight in Allah’s Cause with their wealth and lives. Allah has granted a grade higher to those who fight with their possessions and bodies to those who sit home. Those who fight He has distinguished with a special reward.”
Qur’an 4:100 “He who leaves his home in Allah’s Cause finds abundant resources and many a refuge. Should he die as a refugee for Allah and His Messenger His reward becomes due and sure with Allah. When you travel through the earth there is no blame on you if you curtail your worship for fear unbelievers may attack you. In truth the disbelievers are your enemy.”
Qur’an 4:102 “When you (Prophet) lead them in prayer, let some stand with you, taking their arms with them. When they finish their prostrations, let them take positions in the rear. And let others who have not yet prayed come—taking all precaution, and bearing arms. The Infidels wish, if you were negligent of your arms, to assault you in a rush. But there is no blame on you if you put away your arms because of the inconvenience of rain or because you are ill; but take precaution. For the Unbelieving Infidels Allah hath prepared a humiliating punishment.”
Qur’an 4:104 “And do not relent in pursuing the enemy.”
This thread is meant to be a place for people to voice their opinions of Muslims without being cowed by other members. If you two can't have a discussion about Muslims without insulting each other, could you please take your bickering to another thread? Like the Flamer's Ward. I'm sure you two could have a blast in there.
quote:
irapsak said this in post #11 : Which brings up another question.
Why are our soldiors heroes and theirs are terrorists?
Beause they're causing deaths unto us?
What about us killing them? That makes us heroes?
To give my answer to your question, I think the reason that our soldiers are heroes and theirs are terrorists is because we are fighting against them. In a time of war we make our enemy out to be more horrible than (usually) they really are because if we sympathized with them or tried to understand them at all, fighting them would be more difficult for our soldiers. To quote Lorne from an episode of Angel: "How can I joust someone when I partially agree with their point of view?"
"Man is a marvelous curiosity ... he thinks he is the Creator's pet ... he even believes the Creator loves him; has a passion for him; sits up nights to admire him; yes and watch over him and keep him out of trouble. He prays to him and thinks He listens. Isn't it a quaint idea." Mark Twain
irapsak said this in post #20 : You know nothing of the Koran.
How are my scources questionable in the least?
There are only a few sources to go by. Everything else has to be taken from these or they are only opinion. They are the oldest sources we have. You need to read Ishaq's sira because this is all we have to find out about the character Muhammed. It is the oldest we have and the only thing ever written within 200 years of Mo's death. The history and formation is recorded by Tabari. It is the oldest unedited account in existence. The hadiths of Buhkari and Muslim are the source I use and considered the most authentic in Islam. And of coarse the quran would round out the sources. I don't know what you are reading but if you care to presents some facts, I would be glad to go over them.
irapsak said this in post #11 :
Which brings up another question.
Why are our soldiors heroes and theirs are terrorists?
Beause they're causing deaths unto us?
What about us killing them? That makes us heroes?
How about their so called soldiers who wear no uniform, purposely torture, burn, kill , and hang civilians from a bridge? Maybe that would distinguish them.
this is my first post....i hope i can make it clear...devildog....the first pont i want to say is....all your soyrces maybe right...and everything u read maybe right.....but thats exactley how extremest muslim think......they consider Islam as a closed circle......and they think they are the "chosen" people....wether they are or not.....they think everyone outside this circle is wrong.....the same as you surround yourself in your circle of ideas and beliefs.......my second point is.....1.2 Billion muslims in the world....if all of these r "terrorist"....then thats a hell of army that can wipe all the "outsider" of their circle.....it is either that or that only the extremest (which r a tiny percentage of the whole Muslim population) are not really "Muslims"...coz they are not following the Quran......its not possible that 1.2 Billion are wrong...and only 2-3% are right......buddy.....just try to think of it from the other side.....ooh....and another point is....if try to read more sources about Islam...try reading everything...and not just choosing certain Quotes and debate with them....i hope this is clear
10-30-2005 09:54 PM
I Irapsak, have never read the Quran or Sira or Takrith, or Hadith, but I profess to know the truth. PLEASE research this topic HERE. The thought of repeating myself on everyone of those errors you posted is painful.
