i think usa goes a little overboard calling out Kerry's war record. i don't see any corrolation to anything he did to warrant comparing him to jane fonda. on the other hand, i can't help but wonder if usa didn't come home from his vietnam service a little shellshocked and fuzzy in the head. he seems to act a little paranoid from all i've read in these various forums here.
just disliking a guy is not a reason to pin a treason rap on him. i don't think there are too many bush supporters who are hanging their hats on kerry being a 'traitor.' they would have a pretty weak argument. on the other hand, there is ample evidence that bush has told plenty of untruths, or at least stretched the truth on extremely serious matters.
as for the 'lies' that usa accuses kerry of telling, i can assure you that if there were any substance to that the republicans would be jumping all over it today. all i'm hearing from republicans is that kerry won the debate but they are still supporting bush. then there are those few republicans - very few - who are stating that bush won the debate. this is known in the trade as 'spin.'
Jim Nasium said this in post #17 : i think usa goes a little overboard calling out Kerry's war record. i don't see any corrolation to anything he did to warrant comparing him to jane fonda. on the other hand, i can't help but wonder if usa didn't come home from his vietnam service a little shellshocked and fuzzy in the head. he seems to act a little paranoid from all i've read in these various forums here.
I can't speak for usa, I'm just making an assumption, but I think the Jane Fonda reference has to do with Kerry's involvement with the antiwar movement which included Fonda, after he returned from Vietnam. He attended many rallies in which Fonda spoke and also did some speaking himself.
I think a lot of Vietnam veterans are pretty upset with the comments Kerry has made, insinuating that every man who served over there is guilty of the atrocities that he admitted to doing himself. My step-dad served 6 tours in Vietnam and lost alot of friends. He never committed the heinous acts that Kerry claims all Vietnam vets are guilty of. Comments like the ones Kerry made have a deep and profound impact on him and that has nothing to do with shellshock.
Holy War....You're basically killing each other to see who's got the better imaginary friend. - Richard Jeni
everything kerry did after leaving vietnam was based on his sincere desire to end a war that was bad for america. history has proven this to be right. for every life you and usa believe he harmed by opposing the war, i would not be a bit surprised if he didn't play a role in saving ten others. of course not every soldier committed atrocities! but that didn't make it right.
kerry is not a traitor. not by any stretch of the imagination. if you want to focus on traitors and war casualties then focus on the thousands that have already occurred and the thousands that might yet be caused by bush's sorry misjudgments. now that sounds to me more like a traitor of the first order. those troops over there that bush professes to love so much were sent there on false pretenses. many of them probably don't even know all the facts about why they are there and what alternatives there might have been. many of their loved ones are finding that out all too late.
i don't know if kerry is the best man this country has to offer right now, but i sure ain't voting for bush! if kerry is considered a traitor in your eyes then bush must be the equivalent of ten traitors.
so he "tried" to get other countries on our side, did he? after watching him do his thing at the debate last night, i can see why he did not gain the respect and trust of the united nations. we need a president who knows how to exhude confidence, honesty and cooperation, not an "in your face", go-it-alone, fumbling, bumbling dope like bush.
I am watching the debate right now, and I must say, Kerry is hammering Bush into oblivion. Kerry never seems out of place, but when Jim Lehrer asks Bush any question, he seems a bit uncertain as to what to say, until he is able to get back to what he has already prepared. Kerry is certainly the better debater and more certain of his ideas. He knows what he saying and he knows what he wants.
M.
"Every positive integer is one of Ramanujan's personal friends."—J. E. Littlewood.
Jim, do some reasearch before you open your pie hole.
You sound just like another liberal. Childish and ill informed.
Let me repeat this again. Kerry is a lier. I can't believe that you ignore this because he has nice hair.
He has no plan, except to be president.
If you review his debate, it is full of untruths. Geez, why you liberals ingore this I don't know. Because he is not Bush right?
Not very good criteria to place a vote for him in November.
No you really want just another slick talker in office?
Wake up!
"Those who know nothing of Islam pretend that Islam counsels against war. Those who say this are witless." ~Ayatollah Khomeini
USA1 spews more nonsense. There was plenty that bush said that were lies during the debate. You lamely say they weren't lies, they were taken out of context.
You lied when you said 60% think Kerry shouldn't be Commander in Chief. Why should anyone listen to you?
USA1 said this in post #23 : It wasn't me you nut. You just don't care to see it.
Are you denying that Kerry lied then? Or do you forgive him becasue he is a Democrat?
Are you denying Bush lied? Or do you forgive him because he's a Republican?
The Claim:
The difficulties facing the U.S. in Iraq are a product of foreign terrorists showing up to fight the America there.
Reality Check:
The U.S. military on the ground says that the overwhelming majority of the insurgents fighting the U.S. in Iraq are Iraqis, not foreigners.
The Claim:
Saddam Hussein "had no intention of disarming and was systematically deceiving inspectors."
Reality Check:
The fact that no weapons of mass destruction have been found in Iraq, and the U.S. inspection team has concluded that no such stockpiles existed when the war began, suggests that Saddam Hussein had, in fact, disarmed.
The Claim:
"The A.Q. Khan network has been brought to justice." (Khan is the Pakistani nuclear scientist who shipped nuclear weapons technology to North Korea, Iran, Libya and possibly other states.)
Reality Check:
Observers generally concur that there's no way Khan could have acted without the authorization and support of Pakistan's military leadership, yet the U.S. accepted an outcome in which Khan received a slap on the wrist and wasn't even made available for questioning by U.S. officials, nor was any obvious attempt made to hold his superiors accountable — perhaps because of Pakistan's crucial role in hunting al-Qaeda.
The Claim:
President Bush says he tried diplomacy in Iraq, and went to war only when it failed.
Reality Check:
Numerous accounts from within the U.S. and allied governments suggest the Bush Administration had decided to invade Iraq even before it went to the UN in the fall of 2002, and had gone back to the international body only under pressure from moderates in its own ranks and from Britain's Prime Minister Tony Blair. The termination of the UN inspection process had nothing to do with its progress; it was based primarily on the window of opportunity for an invasion presented by the seasonal calendar.
The Claim:
Saddam Hussein would have grown stronger had the invasion not occurred.
Reality Check:
The decrepit state of the Iraqi military, its negligible pursuit of prohibited weapons, and the widespread internal rot of the regime that emerged after it collapsed showed that, in fact, containment had succeeded in weakening Saddam Hussein — although an enormous cost to Iraq's civilian population.
The Claim:
Bilateral talks with North Korea would be a fatal mistake that would precipitate the collapse of the six-party talks on Pyongyang's nuclear program.
Reality Check:
Some of the key parties to those talks, including China, Russia and South Korea, are in favor of the U.S. talking directly to North Korea in order to provide Pyongyang with security guarantees that would improve the prospects for success in the six-party process.
The Claim:
Osama bin Laden is isolated, and 75 percent of his people have been brought to justice.
Reality Check:
Bin Laden may have physically sequestered himself, but he remains considerably more popular than President Bush in most of the Arab world. And despite considerable success by U.S. intelligence and allies in Europe, the Middle East and Pakistan in rounding up Qaeda operatives, allied intelligence services concur that al-Qaeda's ranks have swelled a lot faster than they've been denuded, particularly since the U.S. invasion of Iraq.
The Claim:
A free Iraq will help secure Israel.
Reality Check:
The bulk of Iraq's Arab majority, both Sunni and Shiite, hold the same hostile view of Israel as their brethren throughout the Arab world. While elements of one particular faction of the formerly exiled opposition (Ahmed Chalabi's Iraqi National Congress) have suggested that ties with Israel could be established, there's no evidence to support the claim that an Iraqi government reflective of the popular will would be any warmer toward Israel than any of its neighbors.
The Claim:
We have 100,000 Iraqi troops trained now.
Reality Check:
There are around 100,000 people currently recruited to various Iraqi security forces, although the number who've been fully trained is closer to 20,000. And the number on whom U.S. commanders believe they can currently rely in frontline combat situations against the insurgencies is thought to currently number no more than 5,000.
The Claim:
We have 30 nations in our coalition; our coalition is strong.
Reality Check:
There isn't a single Arab country in the coalition, in contrast to the wide Arab participation in the Gulf War. And the U.S. and Britain between them provided more than 90 percent of the troops. Moreover, eight of the countries that initially joined the U.S. have since pulled out their soldiers, and more are expected to follow. Efforts to persuade Muslim countries to send troops have foundered.
"It was the right decision to disarm Saddam Hussein. And when the president made the decision, I supported him." —John F. Kerry
"The wrong war at the wrong time at the wrong place." —John F. Kerry
John F. Kerry voted AGAINST fighting the first Gulf War. But now that it suits his purposes he holds it up as a model of diplomatic success, with its fighting coalition of 34 countries. Even France and Germany voted YES on that war.
10-01-2004 08:22 PM
