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antizionist2004
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Absurdities of the Second Surrah post #1  quote:



Instead of focusing on the cruelty of the Qur'an (plenty of that!) let's look at the blatant absurdities, at this scam of a religion.

Let's analyse the second surrah, the cow:

2:34 "And when We said unto the angels: Prostrate yourselves before Adam, they fell prostrate, all save Iblis. He demurred through pride, and so became a disbeliever."

Allah commands the angels to worship Adam. They all do, except for Iblis, who becomes a disbeliever.

2:61 "And when ye said: O Moses! We are weary of one kind of food; so call upon thy Lord for us that He bring forth for us of that which the earth groweth - of its herbs and its cucumbers and its corn and its lentils and its onions. He said: Would ye exchange that which is higher for that which is lower ? Go down to settled country, thus ye shall get that which ye demand. And humiliation and wretchedness were stamped upon them and they were visited with wrath from Allah. That was because they disbelieved in Allah's revelations and slew the prophets wrongfully. That was for their disobedience and transgression."

Allah stamped wretchedness upon the Jews at the time of Moses because they killed the prophets and disbelieved Allah's revelations. But what prophets could they have killed and what revelations could they have rejected? Most of the prophets and revelations came later, didn't they?

2:65 "And ye know of those of you who broke the Sabbath, how We said unto them: Be ye apes, despised and hated!"

Allah turned Sabbath breakers into apes.

2:72 "And (remember) when ye slew a man and disagreed concerning it and Allah brought forth that which ye were hiding."

2:73 "And We said: Smite him with some of it. Thus Allah bringeth the dead to life and showeth you His portents so that ye may understand."

To settle a murder mystery, Allah brought a murder victim back to life by hitting his dead body with a piece of the yellow cow. The risen man then identified his murderer!

2:259 "Or (bethink thee of) the like of him who, passing by a township which had fallen into utter ruin, exclaimed: How shall Allah give this township life after its death ? And Allah made him die a hundred years, then brought him back to life. He said: How long hast thou tarried ? (The man) said: I have tarried a day or part of a day. (He) said: Nay, but thou hast tarried for a hundred years. Just look at thy food and drink which have not rotted! Look at thine ! And, that We may make thee a token unto mankind, look at the bones, how We adjust them and then cover them with flesh! And when (the matter) became clear unto him, he said: I know now that Allah is Able to do all things."

Allah makes a man "die" for 100 years, and then brings him back to life.

2:264 "O ye who believe! Render not vain your almsgiving by reproach and injury, like him who spendeth his wealth only to be seen of men and believeth not in Allah and the Last Day. His likeness is as the likeness of a rock whereon is dust of earth; a rainstorm smiteth it, leaving it smooth and bare. They have no control of aught of that which they have gained. Allah guideth not the disbelieving folk."

To show how he gives life to the dead, Allah tells Abraham to cut up the bodies of four birds, scatter their remains on four hills, and then call to them. Allah says that the dead birds will come quickly to Abraham. (PS: Look at the last line of that verse. More injustice of the Qur'an - "Allah does not guide the disbelievers.")


Simply laughable!!!


Old Post 06-19-2004 04:24 PM
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raven200
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post #2  quote:

[2:61] And remember the time when Moses prayed for water for his people and We said, 'Strike the rock with thy rod;' and there gushed forth from it twelve springs, so that every tribe knew their drinking place. And they were told, 'Eat and drink of what Allah has provided, and commit not iniquity in the earth, creating disorder.'
[2:62] And remember when you said, 'O Moses, surely we will not remain content with one kind of food; pray, then, to thy Lord for us that He may bring forth for us of what the earth grows - of its herbs and its cucumbers and its wheat and its lentils and its onions.' He said, 'Would you take in exchange that which is worse for that which is better? Go down to some town and there is for you what you ask.' And they were smitten with abasement and destitution, and they incurred the wrath of Allah; that was because they rejected the Signs of Allah and sought to slay the Prophets unjustly; this was because they rebelled and transgressed.


Now you ask what prophets they would have killed, well if you read the quote I have given above it says they "sought to slay the prophets unjustly", well one great example of this is Jesus himself, it was the jews that sought to kill him, some of them even attempted to kill the Holy prophet Mohammed.

The Quran talks of Jews in that verse for not just the time of the Prophet Moses but after that as well.

Now further:

[2:65] Then you turned back thereafter; and had it not been for Allah's grace and His mercy upon you, you would surely have been of the losers.
[2:66] And surely, you have known the end of those amongst you, who transgressed in the matter of the Sabbath. So We said to them, 'Be ye apes, despised.'


The Qur'an does not say that the Jews did actually turn into monkeys. A monkey is a symbol for mindless imitation of behaviour. So when the spirit behind worship departs, and mere ritual is left behind, one becomes like a monkey. Hence a monkey represents hypocrisy and insincerity.

And if I say that someone is a *swine* or an *ass*, does this make literally turn him into a *swine* or an *ass*? Do I always have to state that he is *like* a swine or an ass? No, everyone (should, at least) understand/s that this is a metaphor likening a persons behaviour to the typical behaviour of the animal concerned.

Further:


[2:72] He answered, 'God says, it is a cow not broken to plough the earth or water the tilth; one without blemish; of one colour.' They said, 'Now hast thou brought the truth.' Then they slaughtered her, though they would rather not do it.
[2:73] And remember the time when you killed a person and differed among yourselves about it, and Allah would bring to light what you were hiding.
[2:74] Then We said, 'Compare this incident with some other similar ones' and you will discover the truth. Thus does Allah give life to the dead and show you His Signs that you may understand.


Also in relation to them having killed a person and were not sure about if killing of this person was right or wrong, and it says Allah will show them what they knew in thier heartsif the killing was justified or not because in relaity in thier hearts they knew if it was right or wrong.
This simply states that when Judgement day comes, all the dead will awake and everyone will learn the truth and the reality of what Gods teachings are.

Further:


[2:259] Hast thou not heard of him who disputed with Abraham about his Lord, because Allah has given him kingdom? When Abraham said, 'My Lord is He Who gives life and causes death,' he said, 'I also give life and cause death.' Abraham said, 'Well, Allah brings the sun from the East; bring it thou from the West,' Thereupon the infidel was confounded. And Allah guides not the unjust people.
[2:260] Or hast thou not heard of the like of him who passed by a town which had fallen down upon its roofs and exclaimed, 'When will Allah restore it to life after its destruction?' Then Allah caused him to die for a hundred years, then He raised him and said, 'How long hast thou remained in this state?' He answered, 'I have remained a day or part of a day.' Allah said, 'It is so but thou hast also remained in this state for a hundred years. Now look at thy food and thy drink; they have not rotted. And look at thy ass. And We have done this that We may make thee a Sign unto men. And look at the bones, how We set them and then clothe them with flesh.' And when this became clear to him, he said, 'I know that Allah has the power to do all that He wills.'
[2:261] And remember when Abraham said, 'My Lord, show me how Thou givest life to the dead.' God said, 'Dost thou not believe?' Abraham said, 'Yes, but I ask this that my heart may be at ease.' God answered, 'Take four birds and make them attached to thee. Then put each of them on a hill; then call them; they will come to thee in haste.' And know that Allah is Mighty and Wise.


The above is a very complicated verse, you really have to grasp its content to understand it.
The second verse above is about mans understanding about himself and his creation, it talks of how God can bring something back after it has been destroyed, this verse also speaks of time and dimensions, we now understand through science that thier are possibilities of being more then one dimension for our universe,anyhow in relation to the man who died for a hundred years, but when he came back he said I have only been gone for a day or part of a day. This is about when we humans go to sleep we go through so much in our dreams that sometimes one has a dream that it seems like many years have passed in that dream, but when one wakes up he realises it only been a few hours. Sleep is very close to being dead, ask a doctor and he will agree and explain it to you why. Anyway our sleep is a process through which we are capable of wondering other places or even dimensions. This is a very profound verse and one has to understand it, the Quran was written almost 1500 years ago and the people of that time would not have understood time or dimensions. This is a sample of the devine revelations in the Quran given 1500 years ago about things that science is just now starting to understand.

Further about Abraham when he asks God how he gives life to the dead, in that verse the Quran beautifully explains that take the example of four birds and make them close to you by looking after them, now when you take the birds somewhere far and then call them from thier they will surely come back to you. This example is the same for the people who are spiritually dead, if one shows them love and understanding and they understand and believe they will surely come running to the faith and to God.

Quran is very in depth and is explained in a beautiful manner with many examples, people who want to understand it will understand it as God will help them to understand it.


Last edited by raven200 on 06-19-2004 at 07:57 PM |
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devildog
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post #3  quote:

From POD; Read if you have the courage. Yes it is long but it is worth it.

The tests attributed to Abraham may be the low water mark for Islam?s credibility thus far. This strand of pearls begins to unwind in Tabari?s second volume, Prophets and Patriarchs: Tabari II:97 ?After Allah had put Abraham to the test?when Nimrod bin Cush tried to burn him in the fire, when He commanded him to sacrifice his son after he had become old enough to walk, when He made him raise the foundations of the House, and devote himself to its rituals?after all of this, He put Abraham to the test with still further commands which He has mentioned. He said, ?And when his Lord tried Abraham with commands and he fulfilled them.? [2:124] The earliest scholars of the Islamic community (ummah) disagreed about the nature of these commandments with which Allah tested Abraham and which Abraham obeyed.?
These tests were crucial because Islam?according to Muhammad?was the result of Abraham?s obedience. Yet the Qur?an is deficient?completely silent on the nature of these trials and their significance. So rather than let Allah wallow in blissful ignorance, the Companions rushed in to save the day. Tabari II:98 ?Islam consists of thirty parts, and no one ever tested with this obligation carried it out, except Abraham.? ??And when his Lord tried Abraham with commands,? means that Allah tested him with the acts of ritual purification, five in the head and five in the body. [5+5=30] Those in the head are: trimming the mustache, rinsing the mouth, cleansing the nostrils with water, using the toothstick, and parting the hair with the fingers. Those in the body are: paring the nails, shaving the pubic hair, circumcision, plucking the armpit, and washing off traces of feces and urine.?
Can?t be! Surely this is a misprint. There is no way that the adoptive father of the world?s fastest growing religion earned the dubious honor by passing such an inane ?test.? Let?s examine another Hadith to make sure we?ve got this right. ?Allah?s words, ?When his Lord tried Abraham with commands,? mean that Abraham was tested by circumcision, shaving his pubic hair, washing the fore-part and rear, using a toothstick, trimming the mustache, paring nails, and plucking his armpits.??
That wasn?t any better. How about this: Tabari II:99 ?Abraham was tested with ten Islamic practices: rinsing the mouth, cleansing the nostrils with water, trimming the mustache, using a toothstick, plucking the armpit, paring the nails, washing finger joints, circumcision, shaving pubic hair, and washing the rear and vulva.? So after adding: ?bathing on Friday,? a fourth version gets ritualistic with: ?walking around the Ka?aba, running between Safa and Marwah, stoning pillars, and hurrying.? I disdain ritual. I am, therefore, unimpressed with its justification. Ritual is a tool used by power-hungry men to condition the masses and subject them to their rule. It is a control device for the oppressor to use against the ignorant. It separates men from God and discourages rational inquiry. But no ritual has ever been this ridiculous.
Tabari claims that these Hadiths somehow illuminate portions of the 2nd surah. Let?s see how: 002.118 ?Those who are ignorant say: ?Why doesn?t Allah speak to us Himself or show us a sign?? So said the people before them. We have indeed shown our clear signs already.? Neither Allah nor Muhammad ever bothered to provide any proof of divine inspiration?no signs, no miracles, no prophecies?so this, once again, refers to the miracles of the Bible.
?Lo! We have sent you (Muhammad) with the truth, a bringer of glad tidings and a warner. And you will not be asked about the companions of the Blazing Hell Fire.? That?s almost funny. Allah is telling Muhammad that he won?t be asked about hell. Why then do you suppose hell is the Qur?an?s most oft repeated subject?
002.120 ?Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with you unless you follow their form of religion. Say: ?The guidance of Allah is Guidance. ? Those to whom We have given the Book read it as it ought to be read.? The Qur?an cannot be true and confirm the Bible as Allah claims if Judeo-Christianity is an errant ?form of religion.? And at this point the Qur?an wasn?t remotely complete; it wasn?t even written down. Allah was therefore saying that people were doing something that simply couldn?t be done. That would make him a liar. What?s more, Allah was speaking to an illiterate man?one incapable of reading.
?These [Jews] believe in it; and whoever disbelieves it are losers. Children of Israel, call to mind the special favor which I bestowed upon you, and that I [Allah] preferred you to all others and made you excel the nations.? Muhammad was in a pickle. Without the Jews being Yahweh?s chosen people, the prophets and scriptures upon which he based Islam lost their relevancy. If they were irrelevant, so was Islam.
Like so much of the Qur?an, this surah provides no intelligent transition between subjects. It has rambled on about god?s inability to provide a sign, to telling us that Muhammad was a warner. It flip-flops from telling him not to follow the religion of the Jews to calling the Jews God?s chosen people. Then after condemning Christ?s mission and crucifying Muhammad?s credibility in the process, it moves to a revisionist account of the Biblical patriarch Abraham. 002.124 ?And (remember) when Abraham?s Lord tried him with (certain) commands, which he fulfilled: He said: ?I will make you an Imam [Islamic leader] to the Nations.? He pleaded: ?And also Imams from my offspring!? He answered: ?But My Promise does not include evil-doers.?? The nature of the trials, or commands, which Abraham allegedly fulfilled was not listed. Considering that the passage of these trials made Abraham the father of Islam?the Imam of the nations?the omission was serious. Not surprisingly, it sent the Muslim sages scurrying for answers. Sadly, what we just reviewed was the best they could do. The Noble Qur?an translators even include this Hadith: Bukhari:V7B72N779 ?I heard the Prophet saying, ?Five practices are characteristics of the Fitra [religion of Abraham]: circumcision, shaving the pubic hair, cutting the moustaches short, clipping the nails, and depilating the hair of the armpits.?? This ?religion? can?t be fixed. It needs to be discarded.
Every Biblical story quoted in the Qur?an was designed to make Muhammad?s unprophet-like behavior seem religious or to make Islamic rituals seem sane. The next verse was no exception. 002.125 ?Remember when We made the House a place of assembly for men and a place of safety; and the place Abraham stood to pray; and We covenanted with Abraham and Ishmael that they should sanctify My House for those who circumambulate it, use it as a retreat, bow down, prostrating themselves.?
002.126 ?And remember [This is an odd command. What are they remembering this from? The Bible doesn?t say anything remotely like this, and no other scriptures refer to Abraham.] Abraham said: ?My Lord, make this a City of Peace, and feed its people with fruits, such of them as believe in Allah and the Last Day.?? Even this is odd. Muhammad was verbally attacked during the entire time he preached in Mecca. As a result, he attacked Mecca militarily at the end of his career, putting him in direct opposition to the patriarch?s supposed prophecy.
?He said: ?As for those who reject, indulge them; soon I will compel them to the doom of the torment of Hell Fire, an evil destination!?? To compel is to induce or coerce. Why would God want to act like Satan and coerce someone into hell?
002.127 ?Remember, Abraham and Ishmael raised the foundations of the House: ?Our Lord! Accept this service from us.?? While I realize that no one was writing this stuff down, and that a short pencil is more effective than a long memory, god and his prophet ought to be able to do better. Just two verses earlier Allah said that he had made the House. Next we learn: ??Our Lord, make of us Muslims, submissive to Your (will), and of our offspring a nation of Muslims, bowing to You; and show us our place for the celebration of rites.?? Abraham died 2600 years before the first Muslim was conned into Islam. In fact, the Arabic word for Muslim wouldn?t even be coined for twenty-six centuries.
Yet a nation of Muslims is how Muhammad viewed the world. The prophet saw our planet in two pieces?the Nation of Islam (called Dar us-Islam) and lands yet to submit, the House of War (called Dar us-Harb). And while Islam has been at war with itself for all of its thirteen centuries, it will continue to fight the House of War until we capitulate. Many in the Western media and most politicians claim that the war on terrorism is unlike any other because the terrorists come from many nations. Now you know the truth: the terrorists represent one nation?the Nation of Islam.
002.129 ?Our Lord, raise up in their midst a Messenger from among them who shall recite to them Your revelations, and instruct them in the Book and in wisdom and make them grow.? By the time the second surah was ?revealed? Muhammad had fled Mecca for the safety of Medina. Now in close proximity with Jews, he had a problem. These folks were literate, and as a result, they were harder to fool. They undoubtedly told Muhammad that he couldn?t be God?s final messenger because that role belonged to the Messiah. Moreover, there were hundreds of specific prophecies regarding the Messiah, none of which he met. So what do you suppose the wannabe Messiah did? Right. He made one up.
But for it to be believable, he had to revise Abraham first: 002.130 ?He who turns away from the religion of Abraham makes himself a fool with folly.? Abraham did not have a religion. He had a relationship. There were no rituals, rites, prostrations, pilgrimages, or prescribed prayers. In fact, the word ?religion? doesn?t exist in the Torah. It can?t be found even once in all of the Old Testament. 002.131 ?When his Lord said to him, ?Be a Muslim,? he said: ?I submit [Islam] to the Lord of the worlds.?? Likewise, you won?t find the words Muslim, submit, or Islam.
The revisionist Abraham said, ?Our Lord, make us submissive [Islam] to You and make of our seed a nation [of Muslims]. And show us our ways of worship.? If Abraham received scrolls from Allah and performed the Islamic rituals, he could not have asked, ?Show me the ways of worship.?
?You, only You, are the Relenting. Our Lord, raise up in their midst a messenger.? You can almost hear Muhammad cry, ?I?m that man.? Jesus has been demoted and Abraham promoted so that Abe could vouch for the credentials of Muhammad and thereby silence the prophet?s critics.
Muhammad believes that Allah chose Islam for Abraham and his sons, especially Jacob, from whom all Jews are descended. 002.132 ?And this was the legacy that Abraham left to his sons by Yah?qub (Jacob); ?Oh my sons! Allah has chosen the Faith for you?the true religion; then die not except in the faith of Islam as Muslims. He said to his sons: ?What will you worship after me?? They said: ?We shall worship your Ilah (God), the Ilah (God) of your fathers, of Abraham, Ishmael and Isaac, the one Ilah (God): To Him we submit in Islam.?? Why do you suppose Yahweh trifled with Judaism and Christianity if Abe were a Muslim? And could Abraham have referred to God as Allah if the name wouldn?t be invented for more than twenty centuries? Even then, it was the proper name of a pagan rock idol in Arabia, not Israel. How do you suppose Yahweh?s name could have been repeated 6,868 times in the Bible if his name were really Allah? And there is no way to weasel out of this predicament. Muslims scream that ?Allah? is simply the Arabic word for ?God,? yet that assertion is in direct conflict with the Qur?an. In this verse the Arabic word for ?God? (capital ?G?), ?Ilah,? was used three times.
Alright, now that we?ve turned Jews into Muslims it?s time to condemn them. 002.134 ?Those are people whose nation has passed away. They shall reap the fruit of what they did, They say: ?Become Jews or Christians if you would be guided.? Say (Muhammad): ?Nay! Only the Religion of Abraham the Hanif. He was not a Mushrikun [non-Muslim disbeliever].?? The Qur?an says nothing of the religion of Abraham. It only suggests prostrations and rituals?mindless drivel. Since the world?s best-documented faiths are Judaism and Christianity, and their Bible introduced Abraham to the world, you?d think that Islam would at least try. But no, all we get is feeble justification for a sorry mix of pre-existing pagan rites.
?Hanifs? were monotheistic poets. While they inspired Islam?s first score of surahs, they were not Muslims. We will discuss them in upcoming chapters.
002.136 ?Say (Muslims): ?We believe in Allah and that which is revealed to us and that which was revealed to Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the (twelve Jewish) tribes, and that which Moses and Jesus received, and that which the prophets received from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and unto Him we have surrendered (in Islam).?? You?d think that after 1400 years, some bright Muslim would ask, ?What was revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, and Jacob?? If Allah knows, why is he keeping it a secret? Or, why not ask, ?If we Muslims shouldn?t make any distinction between the revelations Moses and Jesus received and those claimed by Muhammad, why was Islam necessary??
If they were without distinction this cannot be true: ?If they believe as you believe they are rightly guided; but if they turn away they are in great opposition. Allah will suffice you against them.? Allah says the revelations are identical?Judaism?s, Christianity?s, and Islam?s, and then he says ?they are in great opposition.?
There is some good news. The Islamic god was a self-indulgent fool: 002.138 ?(Our religion is) the Baptism of Allah: And who can baptize better than Allah?? Not only is Allah a Jew, he?s a Baptist. And while that?s embarrassing, the symbolism is deadly for Islam. Muslims don?t baptize, and that?s a problem if their religion is the Baptism of Allah?especially since he?s the best Baptiser.
Baptism by water is the outward expression of having chosen Christ as one?s savior. It is symbolic of receiving his Spirit?the spirit of Yahweh. While the Holy Spirit is something that the Qur?an both acknowledges and condemns, He, like the Torah, Gospels, and Christ, plays no part in Islam. Allah is a distant god. His spirit does not reside in man.


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post #4  quote:

While we turned to this surah in an effort to connect Traditions regarding Abraham to Allah?s account in the Qur?an, we have hit a veritable goldmine of Islamic blunders. This may be the most grotesque of all. 002.139 ?Say (unto the People of the Scripture [Christians and Jews]): Will you dispute with us about Allah, seeing that He is our Lord and your Lord?? Muslims, in a desperate grope for credibility, are being told that Yahweh and Allah are the same god. It is hard to imagine a more vulgar lie. Yahweh and Allah are love and lust, redemption and punishment, personal and remote, brilliant and dimwitted, peace and terror. They are as different as their scriptures.
Yet this deception is essential to Islam. If Allah isn?t Yahweh, Muhammad is a liar and the Qur?an is lunacy. There is no other justification for Muhammad?s reliance on Genesis and Exodus. Muslims must reconcile the irreconcilable, bridging the chasm between Yahweh?s and Allah?s wholly divergent characters. It is a desperate battle for survival that Islam cannot win.
The infinitesimal chance Islam had of prevailing with this ridiculous assertion evaporated when the Dead Sea scrolls were discovered. The text and message on those uncorrupted scrolls rendered impossible the comprehensive corruption and conspiracy that would have been necessary to make the doctrines and gods similar, much less the same.
002.140 ?Nay! Do you say that Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes were Jews or Christians? Say: Do you know better than Allah? Who is more unjust than those who conceal the testimony they received from Allah?? If this weren?t so stupid it would be funny. Allah is saying that Christians and Jews call Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes, ?Jews and Christians,? as if they knew more about them than Allah. Well, apparently they do. Abraham wasn?t, strictly speaking, a Jew. He was a Chaldean from Ur as was his wife Sarah. Anyone who has bothered to read Genesis knows that. But Allah was illiterate, just like Muhammad. Reading Genesis was therefore beyond him. Ishmael was the bastard child of an Egyptian slave. He was expressly excluded from Yahweh?s covenant with the Jews. No Jew or Christian would ever claim relations with him. Isaac, Abraham?s miracle son, provided the link between Abraham and Jacob. Jacob was the father of the twelve tribes and was therefore a Jew?the Jew. And last time I checked, the tribes of Israel were Jews, not Christians. The first Christian wouldn?t be born for twenty centuries.
By this time it should be abundantly clear?Allah wasn?t God. The dark spirit of Islam wasn?t even sane. 002.141 ?The fools among the people will say: ?What has turned them from the Qiblah [the direction Muslims face in prayer] to which they formerly observed [facing Jerusalem]??? Following the Satanic Verses, Ka?aba worship was on the rocks, so Muhammad had Muslims pray to a substitute shrine?the only holy site in the Bible ?the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem. But that didn?t last because the Jews began disputing his preposterous claims of prophethood. Something had to be done. The answer was simple enough. Muslims were ordered to turn away from Jerusalem and to bow toward the House that Allah-Adam-Abraham built.
?We appointed the Qiblah which you were used to, as a hard test for those who followed the Messenger. Indeed it was a momentous change, except to those guided by Allah.? I don?t suppose anyone bothered to ask why bowing one direction versus another in ritualistic prayer was such a tough test. I would think that twisting one?s prayer blankie might be sufficient. Why go to all the trouble to twist the Torah?
002.144 ?Turn your face in the direction of the sacred Mosque [the Ka?aba]. Wherever you are, turn your faces in that direction. The people of the Book know well that this revelation is the truth from their Lord.? Allah is saying that the Jews and Christians know that the Ka?aba is of paramount importance to Judeo-Christianity. Further, he is protesting that the Jews and Christians have collaborated in a massive cover-up to keep the true importance of the pagan shrine a secret. Frankly, I am stunned that something this obviously false and foolish could be considered godly by anyone.
Implicit in this farce is that the Judeo-Christian focus on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem is bogus. For this to be true, the entire Bible, starting with Genesis 11 running through Revelation 22, would have to be fundamentally flawed, for virtually every page is rooted in the history of Israel, and focused on Jerusalem. To say that Jews and Christians conspired to artificially elevate the importance of Israel, Jerusalem, and the Temple at the expense of Mecca, a town that didn?t even exist during the two thousand years the scriptures were being written?in all sixty-six books of the Bible?is ludicrous.
Yet the stakes are unimaginably high. If Allah?s contention is wrong, then Islam?s foundation is ripped asunder. All of the corrupted Biblical accounts in the world won?t help. If the Islamic connection to the Hebrew prophets and patriarchs falters, every important aspect of Muhammad?s religion fails: Allah isn?t god; Muhammad isn?t a prophet. And if they aren?t who they claim they are, they aren?t worthy of anyone?s prayers, allegiance, or soul.
Therein lies the tale?the ticking time bomb of Islam. There is no room for an Arab prophet with a wholly divergent message, especially one without miracles or prophecies, in the line of Hebrews. The last messenger of the scriptures is undeniably the Messiah, not Muhammad.
That gave the Messenger of Islam several enormous problems. He had to claim that the Messianic prophecies were corrupted and meaningless?an impossible task. He had to ignore the fact that Christ fulfilled them?a fool?s folly (one sadly shared by the Jews). Then he had to somehow distort Bible stories and characters to such an extent that it made his unprophet-like behavior and ridiculous pagan rites seem religious, rational, moral, and inspired. But that led to a new problem. How does one do that without debasing the faith upon which the new religion is based?
It can?t be done?at least not rationally. But Islam has never been popular with rational people. It is like an acid, corroding everything it touches, eating away at the brain and heart. It corrupts men, turning them into unthinking, mindless murderers in pursuit of lustful pleasures. It causes Muslims to be so fearful of the truth, they threaten to kill anyone willing to expose their lie.
Muhammad wasn?t finished telling his faithful that the Jews and the Christians had collaborated in the greatest hoax in all of recorded history. 002.146 ?The people of the Book recognize him as they know their own sons; but some of them conceal the truth which they themselves know.? Muhammad?s ?god? is saying on behalf of his ?prophet? that the Jews recognized Muhammad as the Messiah but were keeping it a secret. He was evidently counting on everyone being illiterate and na?ve. And judging by the numbers of people he fooled, he may have been right.
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Trying to reason with the man, the Jews said: Ishaq:269 ??For our part we don?t see how your Qur?an recitals are arranged anything like our Torah is.? [So Muhammad who couldn?t read said,] ?you know quite well that the Qur?an is from Allah. You will find it written in the Torah which you have.?? Sorry, you won?t find any mention of the Qur?an in any Torah. Not in the original from 1200 B.C., not from the Septuagint from 275 B.C., not in any of the Dead Sea Scrolls, dating from 250 B.C. to 70 A.D., not in the ?Torah which they had? in 625 A.D., nor in one from 2003. Since the most important and oft repeated claim in Muhammad?s prophetic career was false, Muhammad was a false prophet. It?s as simple as that.
Yet the charlatans bragged: Ishaq:269 ??If men and jinn [demons] came together to produce its like they could not.? Finhas said, ?Did men or jinn tell you this, Muhammad?? [The answer was yes to both, but he said,] ?You know full well that the Qur?an is from Allah and that I am the Apostle of Allah. You will find it written in the Torah you have.? The rabbi replied, ?When God sends a prophet, He provides for him, so bring us a book that is divinely inspired that we may read it and determine if you are telling the truth. We can produce our Book.?? Unable to produce so much as a single chapter, Muhammad and his god retreated to the state of denial, their most familiar territory. ?So Allah revealed, concerning their words, ?Say, ?Though men and jinn should meet to produce this Qur?an, they would not produce its like, even working together.??? Let?s see if Allah is right.
The 2nd surah begins with a contradiction: 002.001 ?Alif-Lam-Min. (These letters are a miracle of the Qur?an and only Allah knows what they mean.) This is the Book free of doubt, a guidance to those who ward off (evil), who believe in the Unknown, fulfill their devotional obligations, and pay (zakat) out of what We have provided.? There is no doubt: these uninspired rantings have guided more evil than they have warded off.
Allah?s ?Book? is asking people to believe in the ?Unknown.? Unable to produce a miracle, prophecy, or even a sane depiction of God, Muhammad just gives up and says, ?believe in the unknown.? We?re ninety-one surahs into the Qur?an, and what little is known about this spirit is demonic. He spends his days torturing unbelievers in hell, and he spends his nights leading believers astray. He supports immorality when it serves his prophet?s interests, and he doesn?t want his true identity to be known.
But the dark spirit wants to be worshiped. The passage defines Muslims as those who ?fulfill their devotional obligations.? Although this may sound pious, it?s wrong too. Devotion and obligation are incompatible, mutually exclusive concepts. Devotion?love?requires choice. The lack of choice is Islam?s greatest deficiency, as the word ?obligation? suggests.
That brings us to the zakat, the tax imposed on all Muslims; it?s one of the Five Pillars. Islam gives monetary confiscation a politically correct veneer by calling it charity, the giving of alms. But Muhammad used it exactly like politicians use taxes. At swordpoint, he took money from productive people so that he could bribe his unproductive supporters. It made Muhammad powerful and Muslims dependant. It?s no different from the tactics Saddam Hussein used to ensure Baath Party loyalty.
002.004 ?Whoever believes in (the Qur?an and Sunnah) which has been sent down to you (Muhammad) and in that which was sent to those before your time (the Torah and Gospel), have the assurance of the Hereafter.? Although there are a thousand reasons to discard the Qur?an, this is one of the best. Allah is taking credit for prior scripture, saying that it should also be believed. Since the Torah and Qur?an are irreconcilably different, the order is impossible. It?s like telling someone to be a democratic capitalist and a totalitarian communist at the same time.
002.006 ?As for the disbelievers, it is the same whether you warn them or not; they will not believe. Allah has set a seal upon their hearts, upon their hearing, and a covering over their eyes. There is a great torment for them.? It?s another Islamic first: a spirit so perverse, so evil, he precludes people from knowing him. And he does it so that he can torture them. The concept is demonic; the words are Satanic.
The next thirteen verses rekindle the never-ending argument; only this time the victims are Jews, not Arabs. 002.009 ?They deceive Allah and those who believe, but they only deceive themselves, and realize (it) not! In their hearts is a disease; and Allah has increased their disease. Grievous is the painful doom they (incur) because they (lie).? Only in Islam could man deceive God. But that?s child?s play compared to a god who calls men diseased, and then, rather than curing them, makes them sicker. The Qur?an begins as badly as it ends.


Old Post 06-19-2004 07:11 PM
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002.011 ?When it is said to them: ?Make not mischief on the earth,? they say: ?We are peacemakers only.?? Propagandists and political strategists know that the most effective deception is one that projects a doctrine?s or a candidate?s faults onto their rivals. That is precisely what is being done here. The ?mischief makers? are Muslims, not Jews. As proof, the Jews were tending to their businesses while the Muslims were out pirating. But it is the last line that haunts us today. In the face of worldwide Islamic terror, Muslims say, ?We are peacemakers only.? And we believe them. Shame on us.
Still attacking Jews, the Qur?an says: ?They are mischief-mongers, but they realize not. When it is said to them: ?Believe as the others believe:? They say: ?Shall we believe as the fools?? Nay, surely they are the fools, but they know not. When they meet the faithful, they say: ?We believe;? but when they are alone with the devils, they say: ?We are really with you: We (were) only mocking.?? Obviously, it didn?t take the Jews long to assess the merits of Islam. Knowing who God is helped them recognize who He was not. And therein lies our problem. We have lost sight of Yahweh, having separated ourselves from him. Most don?t even know his name, much less his character and plan. Not knowing Yahweh makes Lucifer more deceptive.
For example, this is Lucifer speaking, not God: 002.015 ?Allah mocks them, paying them back, increasing their wrong-doing so they wander blindly.?
Then the Devil says: ?These are they who have bartered guidance for error, and have gained nothing from the deal.? Another translation reads: ?These are they who purchase error at the price of guidance, so their bargain shall bring no gain.? This is Allah?s first attempt at condemning Jews for selling (not giving) their oral traditions to Muhammad. He is inferring that his bastardized accounts, the ones twisted to make his immoral behavior look divine, are true guidance while the originals are erroneous. Remember, people believed Hitler?s lies too?lies that were indistinguishable from Islam. Working for the same master, they were equally seductive, racist, demonic, and destructive.
002.017 ?They are like one who kindled a fire; when it burned around him, Allah took away their light and left them in darkness so they could not see. They are deaf, dumb, and blind, so they return not. Or like a storm with darkness, thunder and lightning. They thrust their fingers in their ears for fear of death. But Allah surrounds the disbelievers. The lightning snatches away their eyes; when darkness covers them, they stand still; and if Allah pleased He would take away their hearing too.? Allah is harming men, not condemning doctrines. And the dark spirit is shown thwarting man?s efforts to know him (which is probably a good thing).
After a series of ?proofs? Allah says: 002.023 ?If you are in doubt of what We have revealed to Our Votary, then bring a surah like this, and call any witnesses apart from Allah. But you cannot, as indeed you cannot guard yourselves against the Hell Fire whose fuel is men and rocks, which has been prepared for the infidels.? Dr. Seuss writes better sonnets than this. They are original, instructive, nurturing, and chronological. So I call the Grinch to witness; he is no less real, and a lot less disturbed.
I am going to skip the debate between Allah, Adam, and Satan, as we have played the ?can-you-name-the-animals? game before. It ends with a clever impersonation, however, with Adam playing Muhammad: 002.039 ?Those who reject and deny Our Signs will be inmates of the Hell Fire and will abide there forever.?
Proving that the Qur?an was as crazy as its god, the book that had just invested the better part of forty verses condemning Jews to hell, telling them that they were deaf, dumb, blind, diseased, and led astray, now says: 002.040 ?O Children of Israel, remember the favors I bestowed on you. So keep My Covenant so that I fulfil your covenant. Fear Me. And believe in what I sent down, confirming and verifying the Scripture which you possess already.? This reconfirms that Islam is irrational. Q cannot verify or confirm B if Q condemns and contradicts B. Further, if B is true and Q opposes B, then Q must be false.
While an irrational god is a problem for Islam, there is a bigger issue. 002.041 ?Be not the first to deny or sell My Verses for a small price; and fear Me, and Me alone.? Another translation reads: ?Part not with My Revelations for a trifling price (getting a small gain by selling My Verses).? The Qur?an just confirmed that Muhammad bought his ?divine revelation? from the Jews. It wasn?t ?handed down,? ?deciphered from clanging bells,? or ?dictated by Gabriel.? It was purchased in a business transaction.
002.042 ?Do not mix truth with falsehood, nor conceal the truth when you know.? The truth is: all doctrines based upon fear and submission are bad. They are designed to empower the few so that they might fleece the many.
Almost three thousand years ago the Jews substituted a powerful and nurturing relationship with Yahweh for a complex and stifling religion. The religion was good for cleric and king but devastating for the Jewish people, separating them from their land and God. The Catholic Church did the same thing, elevating rites and rituals above relationship. It was great for cleric and king but devastating for humankind. Likewise Islam offers nothing to men but the false hope of a twisted paradise. It uses fear to suppress and stupefy the masses, enriching and empowering imams and tyrants alike.
Islam, more than any doctrine conceived by man, uses mind-numbing ritual and senseless rites to manipulate and fleece the flock. Islamic prayer is not a conversation with God; it is a performance to be acted out. Islamic worship isn?t heartfelt praise; it?s mindless, obligatory, and repetitive. The Qur?an is not to be questioned or understood; it is to be obeyed. The Islamic ?god? is ?unknown? for a reason. He is repulsive.
Chairman Muhammad was ordering the Jews to capitulate to him. But they saw right through his act: 002.043 ?Perform prayer; pay the zakat tax; bow down and prostrate yourself with Ar-Raki?un (the obedient bowers). You read, recite, and study the Scripture. Why don?t you understand? [Why don?t you capitulate?] Nay, seek [Islamic prostration] prayer: It is indeed hard, heavy, and exacting, except for those who obey in submission.? In other words, ?Become Muslims and subject yourselves to my obligations because I need to control you and I covet your money.?
Allah, the god who said he turned Jews into ?swine and apes,? claims: 002.047 ?Remember, Children of Israel, the favor which I bestowed on you, and made you exalted among the nations of the world, preferring you to men and jinn.? But then: 002.059 ?The [Jewish] transgressors changed and perverted the word from that which had been spoken to them to a word distorted; so We sent a plague upon them from heaven, for their evil-doing.? The god of ?favors? ?bestowed a plague from heaven.? Bukhari:V4B56N679 ?Allah?s Apostle said, ?Plague was a means of torture sent on the Israelis.?? While we differ on plagues being heavenly, bigger questions remain: when, how, and why did the Bible get so distorted that it became the opposite of the Qur?an? The claim is the crux of Islam, yet no Muslim cleric, prophet, or god has ever provided a rational explanation. And without an answer, Islam is a counterfeit, a lousy job of plagiarizing, nothing more.
The Septuagint and Dead Sea Scrolls irrefutably prove that the Torah has remained unchanged since at least 250 B.C., a thousand years before the Qur?an was written. Since Islam claims otherwise, it?s a fraud, not a religion.
Not only is there a mountain of historical evidence to refute Muhammad?s claim, reason alone will suffice. For the Jews to have written Allah, Muhammad, Mecca, the Ka?aba, Appeasement, Arabic, Islam, Tax, Jihad, Submit, Religion, Muslim, and the Five Pillars out of the Torah and Yahweh, the Messiah, Jerusalem, the Temple, Atonement, Hebrew, Judaism, Tithe, Love, Choose, Relationship, Jews, and the Ten Commandments in, requires a conspiracy infinitely beyond anything the world has ever known. A total suspension of rational thought is required to believe Allah. And then there is the little problem of motivation. Why would the nation of Israel collectively and comprehensively alter the totality of their scriptures and history in an attempt to foil a conman a thousand miles away and a thousand years distant?
The dark spirit of Islam has sent a ?plague? from his abode and it has consumed men?s minds. Hopefully there will be enough healthy neurons left for Muslims to make wise choices once they are exorcised from this pestilence.
002.061 ?Humiliation and wretchedness were stamped upon the Jews and they were visited with wrath from Allah. That was because they disbelieved Allah?s Proofs, Signs and Verses and killed the prophets. They disobeyed and rebelled. Surely those who believe and Jews, and Nazareans [Christians], and the Sabaeans [Zoroastrians], whoever believes in Allah and in the Last Day, and whosoever does right, shall have his reward with his Lord and will neither have fear nor regret.? Muslims quote the last part of this verse to the media to demonstrate how tolerant Islam is. Yet they must take it out of context. The prior verse that says that Allah stamped the Jews with wretchedness and that his wrath was justified. Further, Muslims must mistranslate it, too, replacing the name ?Allah? with the word ?God.? The passage actually says: tolerance is only extended if the Jews, Christians, and Zoroastrians believe in Allah and become Muslims. Convert: or fear and regret it.
Two verses later, the intolerant Allah is back on the warpath, acting like a racist. 002.064 ?But you [Jews] went back on your word and were lost losers. You know that you have broken the sanctity of the Sabbath, so We said: ?Become monkeys despised and hated.? We made this punishment an example and a warning for those who fear Allah.? Whether you choose to interpret this as god calling Jews despised apes or turning them into hated monkeys, it isn?t godly. And if the Sabbath was sanctified by Allah, why do Muslims ignore the warning and worship on Friday?
The following Hadith was designed to answer that question: Bukhari:V4B56N693 ?The Prophet said, ?We [Muslims] are the last (to come) but we will be the foremost. Nations were given the Scripture Book before us, and we were given the Holy Book after them. Friday is the day about which they differed. So the next day, Saturday, was prescribed for the Jews and the day after it, Sunday, for the Christians. It is incumbent on every Muslim to wash his head and body on Friday.?? I suppose it would be too much to ask for the prophet to explain how a ?Friday dispute? could have arisen between Jews and Christians, considering it was chiseled in stone twelve centuries before the first Christian was born.
In the next fifteen verses, Allah bounces between arguing with Jews and regaling their history. Then he condemns them for overcharging Muhammad for ?erroneous? Bible stories: 002.079 ?But woe to the Jews who fake the Scriptures and say, ?This is from God,? so that they might earn some profit thereby.? And woe to them for what their hands have written, and woe to them for what they earn from it.?? What makes them ?fake? is the Biblical accounts the Jews sold to Muhammad differed from the version the prophet twisted to serve his interests.


Old Post 06-19-2004 07:13 PM
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002.080 ?Yet they (Jews) say: ?The Fire will not touch us for more than a few days??but they are enclosed in error and are inmates of Hell.? Failing to scare them, Muhammad ordered Jews to: ?Pay the zakat tax on your wealth for the welfare of others [Muslims]. And remember we took your Covenant: shed not blood among us or turn people out of their homes; you promised and bear witness. But you kill one another, call people guilty, and use oppression. When captives are brought you ransom them, although it was forbidden.? The Yathrib Jews did none of these things. The Muslims did them all. They shed blood, murdering thousands. They forced thousands more from their homes. Their god condemned men, and his prophet founded the most oppressive regime ever conceived. During the month these situational scriptures were contrived, Muhammad personally took captives and ransomed them. Even if you don?t see Muhammad as the Meccans and Jews saw him?as an insane, demon-possessed liar, forging scriptures for his own selfish gain?it?s hard to miss the fact he was a hypocrite.
It?s amazing how much difference a year and a few miles can make. In the last Meccan surah, Allah was congratulating the Jews for testifying to the truth of his Qur?an. Now they?re going to roast in hell for not swallowing it whole. 002.085 ?Do you [Jews] believe a part of the Book and reject a part? There is no reward for them who so act but disgrace in the world, and on the Day of Doom, the severest of punishment?their torment will never decrease!? The more one is exposed to Muhammad?s poisonous brew, the worse it tastes.
As we move on, Jesus is brought into the fray, and we are told that the Gospels and Torah were divinely inspired. But then we learn that Allah has cursed Christians and Jews for their disbelief. Allah?s anti-Christian, anti-Jew diatribe continues for 50 verses. The same Allah who refers to himself as ?We? and ?Our? claims that Jesus cannot be His son because He is ?One.?
Allah?s racist rant includes the twentieth rendition of: 002.089 ?The [Qur?an] Book was sent to them (the Jews) by Allah verifying and confirming what had been revealed to them already (the Torah and Gospel). They used to pray for victory over the unbelievers?and even though they recognized it when it came to them, they renounced it. The curse of Allah be on those who deny!? By slipping out of first person to curse the Jews, Muhammad has lifted the veil and shown us who is really behind the curtain.
We are three quarters of the way through the Qur?an, and yet this is the first time Gabriel, the Messenger?s messenger, is named. 002.097 ?Say (Muhammad): Whoever is an enemy to Gabriel?for he brings it down to your heart by Allah?s leave, a confirmation of what was (revealed) before, and guidance and glad tidings for those who believe. Whoever is an enemy to Allah, His angels, His Messengers, to Gabriel and Michael, Lo! Allah (Himself) is an enemy of the disbelievers.? The spirit who terrorized Muhammad in the cave is now given a name, and wouldn?t you know it, his name is from the Bible too. Allah seems to have a very limited imagination. And a limited range of emotions: the moment we meet the heavenly cast, they are off to war, condemning their enemies for rejecting their doctrine of submission. Every word of this reeks of Lucifer?the real enemy of the Jews.
002.099 ?We have sent down to you Manifest Signs; and none reject them but those who are perverse.? How, pray tell, can a doctrine be tolerant when its spiritual leader says that all who reject his claims are perverse? And you?d think that if Allah was going to brag about all his ?signs? he would perform one?one lousy miracle. (Making the blind lame or the deaf dumb doesn?t count.) Muhammad and Allah simply promise and protest. They are more like Hitler and Goebbels than Prophet and God.
Once again: 002.101 ?When there came a messenger from Allah confirming what was with them, a party of the people of the (Torah and Gospel) Scripture Book fling away the Book of Allah, tossing it behind their backs, as if they did not know!? You?ve probably noticed a pattern in the Qur?an. The things Muhammad and Allah protest most, they are most guilty of. They claim repeatedly that the Qur?an confirms the scripture it twists. Similar verbose assertions are: the Qur?an was a book, Allah created man, Allah showed his signs, Jews were Muslims, and Muhammad wasn?t a demon-possessed madman.
002.102 ?They follow what Satan chanted and gave out during the lifetime of Solomon. Though Solomon never disbelieved, the devils denied and taught sorcery to men, which they said had been revealed to the angels of Babylon, Harut, and Marut. However, these two (angels) never taught without saying: ?We have been sent to deceive you.?? Harut and Marut are Persian names not Hebrew or Arabic. And while the implication is that the Jewish King Solomon was a Muslim during the time the Jews were influenced by the Babylonians, Allah?s timeline is errant by 400 years. While that?s indicting, what?s really incriminating is Allah?s claim that the Torah was inspired by the Devil and yet his Qur?an verifies it?s message. This, ever so appropriately, is followed by three repetitions of: ?If only they had sense!?
Now that the Jews had been properly chastised it was time to get down to business. Muhammad had a tenuous grip on his fledgling community, and that just wouldn?t do. Tyrants require unquestioned obedience, total submission. 002.104 ?You of [the Islamic] Faith, say not (to the Prophet) words of ambiguous import like ?Listen to us,? but words of respect; and obey (him): To those who don?t submit there is a grievous punishment.? While there are countless verses that confirm Islam was invented to serve Muhammad, this is as effective as any.
This brings us to one of the Qur?an?s biggest problems?Allah?s contradictions. Muhammad wants us to believe that the creator of the universe, is capricious and unreliable, changing his mind by canceling prior truths and obliterating his divine revelations. 002.106 ?When we cancel a Verse or throw it into oblivion, We replace it with a better one.? Or: ?Whatever Revelation We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We substitute something better.? In the context of God, this is senseless. But in the context of a forgetful man trying to counterfeit the written record of God to serve his agenda, it?s perfect.
The religion of Islam failed in Mecca. Muhammad had to cast it into oblivion, to abrogate it, to move on with the doctrine of politics and submission. Allah replaces Ar-Rahman. Piracy replaces inheritance. Jews replace Meccans. Swords replace words. Muslims replace everybody. And Muhammad gets what he wants: money, women, and power.
The reason the ?abrogation? verse is so important is that it wipes out Islam as a religion. The first ninety surahs are cast into oblivion. The prophet has a new Qiblah?and a political doctrine built upon submission and sword. But as bad as that sounds, you don?t know the half of it yet. The last two-dozen surahs are by far the worst; they contain some of the most immoral, hateful, intolerant, and violent words ever uttered by men.
Returning to the second edition of the never-ending argument we are told that the non-prostelizing Jews were evangelizing: 002.109 ?Quite a number of the People of the Book wish they could turn you [Muslim] (people) back to infidelity after you have believed [submitted], through selfish envy, even after the Truth has become manifest to them. Indulge them until Allah issues his orders.? The first part is funny. The second is not. Jews, who were employed, prosperous, and literate, who possessed the longest surviving and best-documented monotheistic faith in the world were jealous of Muhammad?s band of bandits? I don?t think so. But what?s sinister is Allah?s ultimate order to exile and murder them. Within a mere six months Muhammad would perpetrate a horrible crime.
That said, it was back to business. Muhammad needed more rituals and taxes. They became his means of suppression and oppression. 002.110 ?Establish worship, ritual prayer, and pay the zakat tax; whatever good you send before for your souls, you will find with Allah; surely Allah sees what you do.? Pay now, receive later.
Then it was back to the never-ending argument. 002.111 ?They say: ?None shall enter Paradise unless he be a Jew or a Christian.? Those are their (vain) desires. Say: ?Produce your proof if you are truthful.? Nay [the tolerant religion said], whoever submits His face to Allah and surrenders, he will get his reward; on such shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. The Jews say: ?The Christians follow nothing; and the Christians say: ?the Jews follow nothing (true);? Yet they (profess to) recite the (same) Scripture Book. But Allah will judge between them in their quarrel.? By the seventh century, Jews had long since stopped criticizing Christians. And Jews only read out of half the book. Moreover, Christians believe every word of the Hebrew scriptures. So, once again, Allah has his facts entirely wrong.
Finished with the Christians and Jews for the moment, it was time for Allah to take a swipe at the Meccans. 002.114 ?And who is more unjust than he who forbids Allah?s Name to be celebrated and mentioned in the sanctuary places (mosque) and strives for their ruin? It was not fitting that such should enter them except in fear. For them there is nothing but disgrace in this world, and in the next an exceeding torment, an awful doom.? This is Muhammad?s feeble attempt to justify his new career path as pirate, kidnapper, and murderer. ?Terrorism is justified because the Meccans shooed me away from Allah?s House.? And while that?s as lame as it is immoral, the verse is not without a pearl. If Allah?s name should be celebrated then ?Allah? is a name, not a word. In other words, Allah cannot be both the Arabic word for God and the name of its god at the same time. That would be like naming your pet dog ?Dog.? (Dog is god, backwards; so we may have stumbled onto something.)
Now that ?dog? has bared his fangs at the Meccans, it?s time to bite Christians. 002.116 ?They say: ?Allah hath begotten a son: glory be to Him.? Nay, to Him belongs all that is in heavens and on earth: All are subservient and obedient to Him.? It?s all right to say Allah has daughters if there?s a buck in it, but heaven forbid you should say Christ is the son of God. ?To Him is due the primal origin of the heavens and earth: When He decrees a matter, He says to it: ?Be,? and it is.? It?s a good thing that contradictions are abrogated in the Qur?an or this would be a problem. Everything the Qur?an says Allah created, including the earth, Adam, and Jesus, were made in a manner other than saying ?Be, and it is.?
In an earlier chapter, the Islamic Abraham introduced us to the second surah, starting with the 118th verse. Allah lured Abraham out of Israel, the ?land flowing with milk and honey,? into the wastelands of Arabia to make the pagan Ka?aba appear monotheistic. The Qur?an, however, was not as daring as the Hadith. It made no attempt to explain how or why a hundred-year-old man crossed a thousand miles of desert with an illegitimate infant and a slave girl to reach a place that wouldn?t be inhabited for twenty-five centuries.


Old Post 06-19-2004 07:13 PM
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post #7  quote:

In a long-winded speech, Allah said that Abraham and his Jewish kin were Muslims practicing Islam. 002.132 ?And this was the legacy that Abraham left to his sons by Yah?qub (Jacob); ?Oh my sons! Allah has chosen the Faith for you?the true religion; then die not except in the faith of Islam as Muslims. He said to his sons: ?What will you worship after me?? They said: ?We shall worship your Ilah (God), the Ilah (God) of your fathers, of Abraham, Ishmael and Isaac, the one Ilah (God): To Him we submit in Islam.?? It?s a wonder such an important profession of faith eluded the Hebrew prophets. Nowhere in the Bible are the words ?Muslim, Muhammad, Allah, or Islam? written. It?s inconceivable that Abraham could have had such a fine religion and not even mentioned it or his pal Allah.
We also covered Allah?s admission in the 138th verse that he was a Baptist. This was followed by Allah?s delusional claim that he was Yahweh.
Starting at verse 142 Allah tells us that Muslims should no longer play with the Christians and Jews. They must now recognize the monotheistic holiness of Allah?s pagan shrine, the rock pile in Mecca. The Ka?aba is called a sacred and holy mosque, even though the only actual mosque at this time served as Muhammad?s brothel. (The mosque in Medina was an open courtyard. The buildings that surrounded it served as apartments for Muhammad?s wives, sex slaves, and concubines.) And the shrine of which they spoke was still home to hundreds of rock idols, including Allah?s Black Stone.
002.142 ?The fools among the people will say: What has turned them from their Qiblah which they had? Say: The East and the West belong only to Allah; He guides whom He likes to the right path. Thus We have appointed you a medium nation, that you may be witnesses against mankind, and that the Messenger may be a witness against you. And We appointed the Qiblah which you formerly observed only that We might know him who follows the messenger, from him who turns on his heels.? Muhammad had just arrived in Yathrib and his foolish spirit was already calling the townsfolk ?fools.? The one-time prophet turned profiteer had moved away from Allah?s House in disgrace following the Satanic Verses. He had changed his Qiblah to Jerusalem opportunistically?na?vely thinking the Jews would accept him as their Messiah. When they rejected him for the fool he was, his ?god? told his coconspirator: ?The Jews have rejected our bogus claims, so we aren?t going to play with them any more.? Team Islam issued an about-face.
You probably noticed that the never-ending argument gained a larger antagonist. Muhammad and his dark spirit are now ?against mankind.? What you may not have noticed, however, was the admission of failure. Muhammad needed a way to determine who was in lockstep with him, as he had been unable to seduce a sufficient quantity of the Ansar Helpers to go along with his new program. Not a single Ansar joined the pirates in any of the first dozen Muslim raids. Then when the last one prevailed, ending in murder, theft, and kidnapping for ransom, they cried foul, since the raid breached their ?religious? covenants.
Maududi acknowledges Muhammad?s problem in his commentary. ?During this period a new type of Muslim, called munafiqin or hypocrite, began to appear?. They professed Islam but were not prepared to abide by the consequences?. There were some who had entered the Islamic fold merely to harm it from within. There were others who were surrounded by Muslims and, therefore, had become ?Muslims? to safeguard their worldly interests.? They knew ?good? Muslims were terrorist thieves.
So Muhammad came up with a plan to separate the hypocrites from his raiders. He had his dog bark: ?We appointed the Qiblah which you formerly observed only that We might know him who follows the Messenger from him who turns on his heels [and doesn?t submit].? God knows all, so this cannot be god speaking. These words must therefore be Muhammad?s. ?This was surely a hard test except for those whom Allah has guided; and Allah was not going to make your faith fruitless and go to waste; surely Allah is Merciful.? Since bowing south verses north isn?t a test, we must read between the lines and assume Muhammad was testing Ansar and Emigrant obedience. He needed to know whom he could count on to raid, terrorize, and plunder his enemies.
002.144 ?We see the turning of your face: now shall We turn you to a Qiblah that shall please you. Turn then your face in the direction of the Sacred Mosque (at Mecca): Wherever you are, turn your faces in that direction. The People of the Book (Jews and Christians) know well that (the Ka?aba) is the truth from their Lord. Nor is Allah unmindful of what they do.? When ?god? has to lie, there?s a problem. If the Jews thought the Ka?aba was godly, why did they pray facing the site of their former Temple in Jerusalem? More importantly, why did Muhammad join them? Further, how could the Ka?aba be ?sacred? when it was a pagan shrine?
Unable to perform miracles, the prophet dismissed their significance. 002.145 ?Even if you were to bring to the people of the Scripture Book all the Signs, they would not follow Your Qiblah; nor are you going to follow their Qiblah; nor indeed will they follow each other?s Qiblah.? This is another Allah-Oops. Christians have never had a Qiblah for Yahweh?s spirit resides in us. Since Allah claims to have inspired the Gospels, he ought to have known that. ?If you, after knowledge has reached you, were to follow their (vain) desires, then were you indeed (clearly) in the wrong.?
002.146 ?The People of the Book, unto whom We gave the Scripture, know/recognize this revelation/him as they know/recognize their own sons; But lo! a party of them knowingly conceals truth.? Like all things made of man, the deeper one digs into the Qur?an the more its flaws become apparent. Before we resolve the ?know/recognize? and ?this/him? controversy, ponder the impossibility of ?the People of the Book unto whom We gave the Scripture? believing that every time the Bible referenced something happening in the land of Israel, the city of Jerusalem, on Mount Moriah, or in the magnificent Temple of Solomon, it was a purposeful deception. They would have to believe that it was possible for the thousands of events chronicled in the Bible to have actually occurred in Arabia, at a rock pile in a barren and deserted ravine that a thousand years later would become a motley collection of mud huts called Mecca. They would have to believe that tens of millions of people conspired together over the course of two millennia to write the Jewish Temple in and the Muslim Ka?aba out of thousands of pages of the most meticulously maintained, most broadly read and distributed scripture of all time. Then they would have to believe that Muhammad, the pirate of Medina, was actually talking with Yahweh, the God of the Bible, and telling the truth about what happened in another time and place. It?s so preposterous it begs a question. Does anyone really believe Islam? Or, as Ishaq and Maududi suggest, are they all hypocrites, merely going along to keep from losing their possessions and their lives?
The translations that read ?recognize him (Muhammad)? rather than ?know this? are equally outrageous. Muhammad is suggesting that the Jews of Yathrib recognized him as their Messiah but were concealing the truth. Yet in truth, the Jews didn?t even recognize Yahshua as their Messiah, and he fulfilled hundreds of exacting prophecies regarding his genealogy, birth, time, life, mission, death, and resurrection. Muhammad didn?t fulfill one. So to say that the Jews recognized Muhammad?s prophetic credentials as they recognized their own sons tells us a great deal about the mindset of the man. He was as delusional as he was egotistical.
The next five verses wallow in the new Qiblah. The most important line warns the raiders not to fear the hypocrites: 002.150 ?Do not fear them; fear Me.?
Motivating men to murder requires conditioning them to hate first. The intended victims must be dehumanized: 002.171 ?The semblance of the infidels is one who shouts to one who cannot hear. They are deaf, dumb, and blind. They make no sense.? 002.174 ?Those who conceal Allah?s revelations in the [Bible] Scripture Book, and thus make a miserable profit thereby [selling it to Muhammad], swallow Fire into themselves; Allah will not address them. Grievous will be their doom.? Since they?re destined for hell anyway, why not kill them? 002.175 ?They are the ones who bartered away guidance for error and Torment in place of Forgiveness. Ah, what boldness (they show) for the Fire! (Their doom is) because Allah sent down the Book in truth but those who seek causes of dispute in the Book are in a schism of great opposition.?


Old Post 06-19-2004 07:14 PM
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devildog
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post #8  quote:

Although this was written in code (or maybe just written badly), it provides the entire equation. It confirms that the Jews sold Muhammad the Bible stories he used to try to make himself look like a prophet. As we have discovered, Muhammad changed these to suit his agenda. Then, since the Qur?anic accounts were different, Muhammad accused his suppliers of selling him a faulty product. He said that B and Q were once identical but that the Jews corrupted B so that they could argue with him about Q.
002.177 ?It is not piety that you turn your faces east or west; but it is the quality of one who believes in Allah and the Last Day, the Angels, the Book, and Prophets; to spend your substance in spite of love for it, for [Muhammad?s] kin, for orphans, for the wayfarer [Muhammad?s mercenaries], for those who ask, and for the ransom of captives; to be steadfast in devotional obligations, and paying the zakat tax.? Although two of Islam?s five pillars are based upon the new Qiblah, we are told here that it isn?t pious. And, while it may be a detail, Allah should have a better sense of direction. The old Qiblah was north of Medina and the new one was south; neither were east or west. Further, as with the first attempts at ?religion? in Mecca, the first try in Medina was centered on Muhammad. He was even the one with captives to be ransomed.
The Meccans who teased Muhammad and shooed him away from their pagan Moon God shrine must now pay for their hate speech. He begins conditioning his faithful to believe retribution is good. Muhammad claims that Allah has told him that the mocking he suffered at the hands of his clan was so egregious that heads must roll. By verse 191, Allah has his war paint on and continues to whoop it up through verse 210, commanding Muslims to attack and kill their brethren.
The next verse is Muhammad?s first stab at instituting a law. It?s as barbaric as his religion. 002.178 ?Retaliation is prescribed for you in the matter of the murdered; the free for free, slave for slave, and female for female. And for him who is pardoned somewhat by his (injured) brother, then prosecution should be according to payment of blood money. He who transgresses after this will have a painful doom.?
002.185 ?Ramadhan is the (month) the Qur?an was sent down as a guide to mankind, also clear Proof/Signs for guidance and the criterion. So every one of you who is present during that month must spend it fasting.? The only reason Muhammad wrestled with the cave demon during Ramadhan was because it was the pagan practice of his people to observe the Tahannuth rituals in Ramadhan. Tahannuth was based upon self-deprivation and fasting, thus the idolatrous practice and holy month were incorporated into Islam. The Ka?aba Inc. made a new pillar out of an old one. ?And you must magnify Allah (Say Allahu Akbar?Allah is Greater.)?
Speaking of Islamic pillars being constructed from regurgitated paganism: 002.189 ?They ask you about the New Moons. Say: They are but signs to mark fixed seasons in (the affairs of) men, and for Hajj Pilgrimage.? The enlightened world had long since abandoned the lunar calendar for the solar one we use today. Rather than ?fixing seasons,? the lunar calendar Muhammad?s god was prescribing caused dates to float around the year. But Allah was the Moon God, so Muslims were forever condemned to the lunacy of ignorance.
Muhammad was now ready to reveal the real reason behind his new Qiblah. He wanted his militants to fight for what he coveted. 002.190 ?Fight in Allah?s Cause those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah like not the transgressors. (This is the first Verse revealed in connection with Jihad, it was supplemented by the 9th Surah.)? Although this verse clearly orders Muslims to fight, the first of many such commands, Islamic apologists use this passage in the Western media to infer that Islamic fighting can only be defensive and moderate. Yet in context, that is not what it says. Just read the next verse: 002.191 ?And kill them wherever you find and catch them, and drive them out from where they have turned you out; for Al-Fitnah (polytheism, disbelief, oppression) is worse than slaughter.? Slaying them ?wherever you find and catch them? is clearly offensive, not defensive. So the prior verse has already been abrogated. And there is no moderation when one says that a belief, or even verbal abuse, is worse than slaughter.
?Fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, until they fight you there; but if they fight you, kill them. Such is the reward of those who are unbelievers.? This is nonsensical. It is not possible for the Muslims of Medina to be defensive fighters if they have marched to Mecca with their fighting gear.
002.192 ?But if they cease/desist, Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.? That sounds nice until you realize what they must ?cease? doing. One must desist from rebuking Muhammad?s claims?in other words, they must become a Muslim to avoid slaughter. Remember, no one was fighting the Muslims when this was handed down. They were the hunters. The Meccans were the prey. To be ?forgiven? and not ?slaughtered,? one had to bow in submission and pay the zakat.
002.193 ?And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief) and religion is only for Allah. But if they cease/desist, let there be no hostility except against infidel disbelievers.? Muslims have been ordered to fight until the only religion is Islam?world conquest. And even when they have overrun the world, there shall be no safe haven for ?infidel disbelievers.? This is as clear as a swastika.
002.194 ?The prohibited month for the prohibited month, and so for all things prohibited, there is the law of retaliation. If any one transgresses the prohibition against you, transgress likewise against him. But fear Allah, and know that Allah is with the pious.? That was verbal diarrhea, so let?s try another translation: ?The forbidden month for the forbidden month, and forbidden things in retaliation. And one who attacketh you, attack him in like manner as he attacked you. Observe your duty to Allah, and know that Allah is with those who ward off (evil).? That was worse?there was no hint of restraint. Maybe a third translation will clear up Islam?s ?Golden Rule.? ?The Sacred month for the sacred month and all sacred things are retaliation; whoever then acts aggressively against you, inflict injury on him according to the injury he has inflicted on you.? The problem isn?t with the translators.
Remember Muhammad?s problem? His henchmen murdered, robbed, and kidnapped in the pagan sacred month of Rejab when violence and thievery were forbidden. Muhammad couldn?t pocket the booty because the offense was so heinous. This handy situational scripture, garbled as it may have been, said, ?The pagan month is important because I?m a pagan god but I?m granting Muhammad a special exemption because I(?m) like him.
Now that the booty was safely pocketed, it was time to encourage more of the same. 002.195 ?Spend your wealth in Allah?s Cause [fighting infidels], and be not cast by your own hands to perdition; and do good. Lo! Allah loves the doers of good.? The Qur?an finally speaks of love, and wouldn?t you know it: Allah loves Jihadists who do good by slaughtering in his cause.
Now that fighting is good, Muslims needed a place to fight, so it was off to ?Perform properly (according to the Prophet?s Sunnah) the Hajj or Umrah, visiting Mecca for Allah. But if you are prevented then send such gifts as you can afford [i.e. if you can?t go and fight, send money so that others can fight], and do not shave your heads until the offering reaches the place of sacrifice.? Fear Allah; He is severe in punishment.?
Send money even if you can fight: 002.215 ?They ask you what they should spend. Say: Whatever they spend is good?. Allah is aware of it.?
According to Allah peace is bad and fighting is good. 002.216 ?Jihad (holy fighting in Allah?s Cause) is ordained for you (Muslims), though you dislike it. But it is possible that you dislike a thing which is good for you, and like a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knows, and you know not.? Another translation reads: ?Warfare is ordained for you, though it is hateful unto you.? This is an open-ended commandment to fight anyone and everyone who has not surrendered to Islam. How, pray tell, do the ?Islam-is-a-peaceful-religion? folks explain??Jihad is ordained for you??
002.217 ?They question you concerning fighting in the sacred month. Say: ?Fighting therein is a great/grave (matter); but to prevent access to Allah, to deny Him, to prevent access to the Sacred Mosque, to expel its members, and polytheism are worse than slaughter. Nor will they cease fighting you until they make you renegades from your religion. If any of you turn back and die in unbelief, your works will be lost and you will go to Hell. Surely those who believe and leave their homes to fight in Allah?s Cause have the hope of Allah?s Mercy.? The Islamic god must be very small if access to him can be prevented by men. But that wasn?t the purpose of this passage. Muhammad wanted the Ansar Helpers or Hypocrites to know it would get nasty if they didn?t join the party. He wanted fighters, not pacifists. What?s more, the last line suggests something that will be made abundantly clear in later surahs: ?Fight in my cause and paradise will be yours.?
Muhammad had to be certain the Ansar knew that his party was not fun and games, so he had his ?god? say: 002.219 ?They ask you about wine and gambling. Say: ?In them is great sin, and some profit, for men; but the sin is greater than the profit.?? But if you are willing to "gamble" your soul on Muhammad?s scheme, you?ll find rivers flowing with "wine."
After polishing his war manifesto and get rich scheme, Muhammad turned his attention to his next favorite subject?women. Qur?anic Laws were dictated that placed women in submissive roles to men just as men had been placed in submission to Muhammad. To enforce his laws, he said: ?Big Brother is watching. You?ll be punished if you don?t obey me.?
The dark spirit returned to the main theme of the surah: ?Fight because our enemies have mocked us and we hate them.? The infidels were called a series of childish names. Then Muhammad convoluted Bible stories to make his crusade appear religious. These twisted portrayals continued through verse 257. A delusional trip down Jewish memory lane followed. Muhammad?s twisted story of Abraham was as different from the original account as it was vulgar and insulting. Next, Allah attempted rational religious thought. His stories were moral and Biblically inspired. But sadly, even the more rational passages focused on taxes, of which Muhammad was beneficiary. This led to a rant on interest and a discussion of business contracts starting in verse 275. The motivation: Muslims borrowed money from the Jews to survive. These sections were short on spirituality and long on pent-up rage.

This is only the beggining, but lets hear your response Raven!


Old Post 06-19-2004 07:15 PM
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post #9  quote:

Firstly Devildog why have you pasted thousands of words, half of what you have pasted above you have already pasted everywhere else in your arguments and I have answered them in other threads. ----- why don't you break down what you want me to respond to as I don't understand what you want me to respond to, again your using quotes from tabari and I've explained to you about those on top of that you talk of many other things in relation to religion.

Well let me tell you Abraham was given devine knowledge that he should worship God and only God, even Adam before him was given the same teaching.
What I'm trying to tell you is that all religions are correct all the teachings were initially given by God, its only later that man altered these teachings and really turned them into something totally different, that is why God has to send prophets, it is not to start a new religion but to bring people back to the same one faith which is to praise God. It just so happens thas in order to identify the teachings we have given the followers of that teachings names, just for the sake of identification ---- which we then call religion. I reality all faiths are the same but some have been altered and changed by man. We are all the same and were all given the same teachings its just that many of us choose to follow blindly without asking questions if they are practicing the correct teachings of God.

Now if you want a further repsonse break down your statements!!!
Also read my above post and understand from that, that what is written in the Quran is very in depth and one has to try to understand what is written in it and not take everything literally.........


Old Post 06-19-2004 07:52 PM
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devildog
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post #10  quote:

The Ta?rikh is the oldest, most trusted and comprehensive history of Islam?s formation and Muhammad?s example, called Sunnah. It was written by Tabari. It begins with Islamic creation and ends with the acts of Muhammad?s companions. Tabari is a compilation of Hadith quotes and Qur?an passages .

How can you possibly deny this source? Are you kidding me? Let me at least get a reason

Raven says;
quote:
Also read my above post and understand from that, that what is written in the Quran is very in depth and one has to try to understand what is written in it and not take everything literally.........


Why don't you start explaining these to me then. We'll start on the theme of "murder". Maybe this is why you reject Tabari.


Tabari IX:69 ?Killing disbelievers is a small matter to us.?

Tabari VIII:141 ?The battle cry of the Companions of the Messenger of Allah that night was: ?Kill! Kill! Kill!??

Bukhari:V5B59N512 ?The Prophet had their men killed, their woman and children taken captive.?

Ishaq:489 ?Do the bastards think that we are not their equal in fighting? We are men who think that there is no shame in killing.?

Qur?an 2:191 ?And kill them wherever you find and catch them. Drive them out from where they have turned you out; for Al-Fitnah (polytheism, disbelief, oppression) is worse than slaughter.?

Qur?an 33:60 ?Truly, if the Hypocrites stir up sedition, if the agitators in the City do not desist, We shall urge you to go against them and set you over them. Then they will not be able to stay as your neighbors for any length of time. They shall have a curse on them. Whenever they are found, they shall be seized and slain without mercy?a fierce slaughter?murdered, a horrible murdering.?

Bukhari:V4B52N270 ?Allah?s Messenger said, ?Who is ready to kill Ashraf? He has said injurious things about Allah and His Apostle.? Maslama got up saying, ?Would you like me to kill him?? The Prophet proclaimed, ?Yes.? Maslama said, ?Then allow me to lie so that I will be able to deceive him.? Muhammad said, ?You may do so.??

Ishaq:368 ?Ka?b?s body was left prostrate [humbled in submission]. After his fall, all of the Nadir Jews were brought low. Sword in hand we cut him down. By Muhammad?s order we were sent secretly by night. Brother killing brother. We lured him to his death with guile [cunning or deviousness]. Traveling by night, bold as lions, we went into his home. We made him taste death with our deadly swords. We sought victory for the religion of the Prophet.?

Tabari VII:97/Ishaq:368 ?We carried Ka?b?s head and brought it to Muhammad during the night. We saluted him as he stood praying and told him that we had slain Allah?s enemy. When he came out to us we cast Ashraf?s head before his feet. The Prophet praised Allah that the poet had been assassinated and complimented us on the good work we had done in Allah?s Cause. Our attack upon Allah?s enemy cast terror among the Jews, and there was no Jew in Medina who did not fear for his life.??

Tabari VII:97 ?The morning after the murder of Ashraf, the Prophet declared, ?Kill any Jew who falls under your power.??


Bukhari:V1B1N6 ?Just issue orders to kill every Jew in the country.?

Ishaq: 676 ??You obey a stranger who encourages you to murder for booty. You are greedy men. Is there no honor among you?? Upon hearing those lines Muhammad said, ?Will no one rid me of this woman?? Umayr, a zealous Muslim, decided to execute the Prophet?s wishes. That very night he crept into the writer?s home while she lay sleeping surrounded by her young children. There was one at her breast. Umayr removed the suckling babe and then plunged his sword into the poet. The next morning in the mosque, Muhammad, who was aware of the assassination, said, ?You have helped Allah and His Apostle.? Umayr said. ?She had five sons; should I feel guilty?? ?No,? the Prophet answered. ?Killing her was as meaningless as two goats butting heads.??

Bukhari:V1B11N626 ?The Prophet said, ?No prayer is harder for the hypocrites than the Fajr. If they knew the reward they would come to (the mosque) even if they had to crawl. I decided to order a man to lead the prayer and then take a flame to burn all those who had not left their houses for the prayer, burning them alive inside their homes.??

Tabari VIII:178/Ishaq:550 ?Muhammad ordered that certain men should be assassinated even if they were found behind the curtains of the Ka?aba. Among them was Abdallah bin Sa?d [the Qur?an?s one and only scribe]. The reason that Allah?s Messenger ordered that he should be slain was because he had become a Muslim and used to write down Qur?an Revelation. Then he apostatized [rejected Islam].?

Tabari VIII:179 ?Abdallah bin Sa?d fled to Uthman, his brother, who after hiding him, finally surrendered him to the Prophet. Uthman asked for clemency. Muhammad did not respond, remaining silent for a long time. Muhammad explained, ?By Allah, I kept silent so that one of you might go up to him and cut off his head!? One of the Ansar said, ?Why didn?t you give me a sign?? Allah?s Apostle replied, ?A prophet does not kill by pointing.??

Tabari VIII:179/Ishaq:550 ?Among those who Muhammad ordered killed was Abdallah bin Khatal. The Messenger ordered him to be slain because while he was a Muslim, Muhammad had sent him to collect the zakat tax with an Ansar and a slave of his.... His girls used to sing a satire about Muhammad so the Prophet ordered that they should be killed along with Abdullah. He was killed by Sa?id and Abu Barzah. The two shared in his blood. One of the singing girls was killed quickly but the other fled. So Umar caused his horse to trample the one who fled, killing her.?


Tabari VIII:180 ?Also among those eliminated were Ikrimah bin Abu Jahl and Sarah, a slave of one of Abd Muttalib?s sons. She taunted Muhammad while he was in Mecca.?

Tabari VIII:181 ?The Messenger ordered six men and four women to be assassinated. One of these women was Hind, who swore allegiance and became a Muslim.?

Bukhari:V4B52N281 ?They took Khubaib to Mecca after the battle of Badr. He had killed Harith, a Meccan nobleman. The Quraysh gathered to kill him in retribution.? Khubaib wanted to offer two Rakat (prayers). They allowed this and he said, ?O Allah, kill them all with no exception.? He then recited the poetic verse: ?I?m being martyred as a Muslim. I do not mind how I am killed in Allah?s Cause. For my killing is for Allah?s Sake. If Allah wishes, He will bless the amputated parts of my torn body.? Then the son of Harith [the man Khubaib had murdered] killed him.?

Ishaq:597 ?When the Apostle returned to Medina after his raid on Ta?if, word spread that he had killed some of the men who had satirized and insulted him. The poets who were left spread in all directions.?

Tabari IX:76 ?Malik has reported to me that you were the first from Himyar to embrace Islam and that you have killed infidels, so rejoice at your good fortune.?

Tabari IX:121 ?When it was feasible for me, I struck him with my sword and killed him. Then I departed, leaving his women to throw themselves at him. When I returned to the Prophet, he asked, ?Is your mission accomplished?? ?Yes. I have killed him.??

Ishaq:308/Tabari VII:65 ?When the Apostle was in Safra, Nadr was assassinated. When Muhammad reached Irq al-Zabyah he killed Uqbah. When the Prophet ordered him to be killed, Uqbah said, ?Who will look after my children, Muhammad?? ?Hellfire,? the Apostle replied, and he was killed.?

Tabari VII:85 ?Muhammad killed many Quraysh polytheists at Badr.?

Tabari VII:99 ?In this year, the killing of Abu Rafi the Jew took place. The Messenger sent some Ansar under the command of Abd Allah and Abd Allah against the Jew. Abu Rafi used to injure and wrong the Prophet.... Abd Allah said to the others, ?Stay where you are, and I will go and ingratiate myself with the doorkeeper to gain entrance.??

Tabari VII:100 ?Every time I opened a door, I shut it behind me from the inside, saying to myself, ?If they become aware, they will not have time to stop me from killing him.? When I reached Rafi, he was in a dark room with his family. As I did not know where he was in the room, I said, ?O Abu Rafi.? When he replied, I proceeded toward the voice and gave him a blow with my sword. He shouted and I came back, pretending to be a helper. I said, ?O Abu,? changing the tone of my voice. He asked me, ?I don?t know who came to strike me with his sword.? Then I drove my sword into his belly and pushed it forcibly till it touched the bone. I hit him again and covered him with wounds, but I could not kill him, so I thrust the point of my sword into his stomach until it came out through his back. At that, I knew that I had killed him [in front of his wife and children]. I came out, filled with puzzlement, and went towards a ladder in order to get down but I fell into a moonlit night and sprained my foot. I bound it with my turban and moved on. I came to my companions and said, ?By Allah, I will not leave till I hear the wailing of their women.? So, I did not move till I heard them crying for the Jewish merchant. I said, ?Deliverance! Allah has killed Abu Rafi.? I got up, feeling no ailment, and proceeded till we came upon the Prophet and informed him.?

Tabari VII:101 ?The Khazraj asked the Prophet for permission to kill Sallam Huqayq, who was in Khaybar. He granted this.?

Ishaq:482 ?One of the favors which Allah conferred upon his Prophet was that these two tribes of the Ansar, the Aws and the Khazraj, used to vie with one another like stallions to carry out the will of Muhammad. The Aws did not do anything which benefited him without the Khazraj saying, ?By Allah they will not gain superiority over us in Islam in the eyes of the Messenger by doing this.? And they would not cease until they had done something similar. Thus when the Aws killed Ka?b Ashraf on account of his hostility to Muhammad, the Khazraj conferred to find a man comparable to Ka?b in hostility and called to mind Sallam Huqayq in Khaybar. They asked the Prophet for permission to kill him, and it was granted.?

Tabari VII:101/Ishaq:483 ?Sallam?s wife came out and we told her that we were Arabs in search of supplies. When we entered, we bolted the door on her so she gave a shout to warn him of our presence. We rushed upon him with our swords as he lay in his bed. He took his pillow and tried to fend us off. Abd Allah thrust his sword into his stomach and transfixed him while he was shouting, ?Enough! Enough!? At once we went out but Abd Allah had bad eyesight, and he fell off the stairway, bruising his leg or arm. ?How shall we know that the enemy of Allah is dead?? one of us asked. ?I will go and look,? one replied. He set off and mingled with the people. He said, ?I found him with the men of the Jews, and with his wife, who had a lamp in her hand, peering into his face. She said, ?By the God of the Jews, he is dead.? I never heard any more pleasing words than these. We went to the Messenger of Allah and told him that we had killed the enemy of Allah. We disagreed in his presence about the killing of Sallam, each of us claiming to have done it. The Prophet said, ?Bring me your swords.? We did and he looked at them. He said, ?This sword of Abd Allah killed him. I can see the marks left by bones on it.??

Ishaq:483 ?Allah, what a fine band you have, one willing to kill Sallam and Ashraf! We went with sharp swords, like fighting lions. We came upon their homes and made them drink death with our swift-slaying swords. Looking for the victory of our Prophet?s religion, we ignored every risk.?

Tabari VII:112/Ishaq:372 ?When a blind Jew became aware of the presence of the Messenger and the Muslims he rose and threw dust in their faces, saying, ?Even if you are a prophet, I will not allow you into my garden!? I was told that he took a handful of dirt and said, ?If only I knew that I would not hit anyone else, Muhammad, I would throw it in your face.? Sa?d rushed in and hit him on the head with his bow and split the Jew?s head open.?

Ishaq:403 ?Allah killed twenty-two polytheists at Uhud.?

Tabari VII:147 ?Amr was sent by Muhammad to kill Abu Sufyan [the Quraysh leader and merchant]. The Prophet said, ?Go to Abu Sufyan and kill him.? ?When I entered Mecca I had a dagger ready to slay anybody who laid hold of me. My Ansar companion asked, ?Should we start by circumambulating the Ka?aba seven times and praying two rak?ahs?? I said, ?I know the Meccans better than you do.? But he kept pestering me until in the end we went to the Ka?aba, circumambulated it seven times, and prayed.?

Tabari VII:148 ?One of the Meccans recognized me and shouted, ?That is Amr!? They rushed after us, saying, ?By Allah, Amr has not come here for any good purpose! He has come for some evil reason.? Amr had been a cutthroat and a desperado before accepting Islam.?

Tabari VII:148 ?Amr said, ?Let?s wait here until the cry has died down. They are sure to hunt for us tonight and tomorrow. I was still in the cave when Uthman bin Malik came riding proudly on his horse. He reached the entrance to our cave and I said to my Ansar companion, ?If he sees us, he will tell everyone in Mecca.? So I went out and stabbed him with my dagger. He gave a shout and the Meccans came to him while I went back to my hiding place. Finding him at the point of death, they said, ?By Allah we knew that Amr came for no good purpose.? The death of their companion impeded their search for us, for they carried him away.?

Tabari VII:149 ?I went into a cave with my bow and arrows. While I was in it, a one-eyed man from the Banu Bakr came in driving some sheep. He said, ?Who?s there?? I said [lied], ?I?m a Banu Bakr.? ?So am I.? Then he laid down next to me, and raised his voice in song: ?I will not believe in the faith of the Muslims.? I said, ?You will soon see!? Before long the Bedouin went to sleep and started snoring. So I killed him in the most dreadful way that anybody has ever killed. I leant over him, struck the end of my bow into his good eye, and thrust it down until it came out the back of his neck. After that I rushed out like a wild beast and took flight. I came to the village of Naqi and recognized two Meccan spies. I called for them to surrender. They said no so I shot and arrow and killed one, and then I tied the other up and took him to Muhammad.?

Tabari VII:150 ?I had tied my prisoner?s thumbs together with my bowstring. The Messenger of Allah looked at him and laughed so that his back teeth could be seen. Then he questioned me and I told him what had happened. ?Well done!? he said, and prayed for me to be blessed.?

And on it goes


Old Post 06-20-2004 05:12 AM
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post #11  quote:

Your an idiot, I'm not going to argue with an idiot anymore as it is a waste of my time!!

Old Post 06-20-2004 12:41 PM
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devildog
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post #12  quote:

quote:
raven200 said this in post #11 :
Your an idiot, I'm not going to argue with an idiot anymore


Happy Father's Day,.. you Mother. -couldn't resist

Muslims use the same tired responses. Instead of facing the facts and examining the truth, rather than confirm the thousands of hateful, racist scriptures, Muslims attack the messenger as though they are responsible for those words. Those are the words that fell from your prophets lips. Not mine. I present them to you, and somehow I become the "idiot". How very typical.

You must lie about everything you post in order to justify Mo's deplorable existance. Muslims say allah is arabic for God. You somehow justify the truth although Ilah is written throughout.

Muslims say everything they did was in "self defense" when they killed. You toss aside the fact that Mo went on 75 terrorist raids, and 73 were unprovoked! Moreover, within 7 years of Muhammad's death, the first Muslims had attacked and conquered Arabia, Persia, the Byzantines, Syria, Israel, and Egypt--none of which had attacked a Muslim.


Muslims say that "their" text is mis translated. You say I even made some up to make it sound worse than it was. Well, my challenge is always out there. Since you are so well informed, quote an Islamic passages I made up. Moreover, since there are 5,000 verses that confirm that Muhammad was a bloodthirsty pirate rather than a prophet, why would I need to make one up?

I think you need to study your religion and perhaps at a later time we can have an intelligent discourse. Either that, or stop lying about Islam here!


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post #13  quote:

Go join the circus, your an absolute clown!!!

You keep repeating the same thing over and over again.

I've showed everyone who has seen the other thread what a fool you are by using scripts from here and thier and mistranslating the meanings.

Dont get excited and think that you have won a conquest, what you've done is allowed me many times to show people how and why non-muslims do not understand Islam or Muslims ---- Because people like you who are the followers of satan want to mock others.

Yes you are satan, and trust me the way your going your half way to hell already!!!


Old Post 06-20-2004 08:06 PM
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post #14  quote:


The personal attacks are humorous but it sure would be nice if ONE Muslim could stay focused and answer the question presented. I have yet to meet this Muslim You all attack personally and dance around the facts. Pathetic really.

You keep saying " I already answered this or that and I already proved Devildog a liar in this other thread...yada, yada", but you don't ever produce it. If you want to shift the heat from Mo/ Allah to devildog, at least provide some evidence, OK? Don't tell people to go here or there.....bring it!! Where is the proof of mis translations posted by me?
You seem fixated on degrading me personally even though I am begging you for some proof. In contrast, I provide a truck load of evidence about your prophet, whom you trust your soul to, and you ignore it. Do you think people are stupid and can't see through your act?
Since you obviously have nothing to say about the hundreds of scriptures with the "killing" theme I posted , perhaps I should change the theme to something you seem to be a little more familiar with.

Lies and deceit;


Bukhari:V7B67N427 ?The Prophet said, ?If I take an oath and later find something else better than that, then I do what is better and expiate my oath.??

Qur?an 9:3 ?Allah and His Messenger dissolve obligations.?

Qur?an 66:1 ?Allah has already sanctioned for you the dissolution of your vows.?

Bukhari:V4B52N268 ?Allah?s Apostle said, ?War is deceit.??

Qur?an 4:142 ?Surely the hypocrites strive to deceive Allah. He shall retaliate by deceiving them.?

Bukhari:V7B71N661 ?Magic was worked on Allah?s Apostle and he was bewitched so that he began to imagine doing things which in fact, he had not done.?

Bukhari:V6B60N8 ?Umar said, ?Our best Qur?an reciter is Ubai. And in spite of this, we leave out some of his statements because Allah?s Apostle himself said, ?Whatever verse or revelation We abrogate or cause to be forgotten We bring a better one.?

Qur?an 33:11 ?In that situation the Believers were sorely tried and shaken as by a tremendous shaking. And behold! The Hypocrites and those in whose hearts is a disease said: ?Allah and His Messenger promised us nothing but delusion; they have promised only to deceive us.?

Qur?an 33:14 ?Say: Flight will not avail you if you flee from death, killing, or slaughter. In that case you will not be allowed to enjoy yourselves but a little while. Say, ?Who will screen you, saving you from Allah if he intends to harm and injure you???

Qur?an 33:21 ?You have in (Muhammad) the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern of conduct for any one to follow.?

Qur?an 74:31 ?We have appointed nineteen angels to be the wardens of the Hell Fire. We made a stumbling-block for those who disbelieve and We have fixed their number as a trial for unbelievers in order that the people of the Book may arrive with certainty, and that no doubts may be left for the people of the Book, those in whose hearts is a disease. And for those to whom the Scripture Book has been given, and the believers, there should be no doubt. The unbelievers may say, ?What does the Lord intend by this?? The Lord will lead astray whomever He pleases, and He will guide whomever He pleases: and none can know the armies of your Lord except He, and this is no other than a warning to mankind.?

Qur?an 74:52 ?Each one of them wants to be given scrolls of revelation spread out! No! By no means! Nay, this is an admonishment. Let them keep it in remembrance! But they will not heed unless the Lord wants them to. He is the fountain of fear.?

Bukhari:V2B24N555 ?I heard the Prophet say, ?Allah hates for you for asking too many questions.??

Qur?an 89:5 ?There surely is an oath for thinking man.?

Qur?an 92:8 ?We will make smooth for him the path to misery.?

Ishaq:519 ?Hajjaj said to the Apostle, ?I have money scattered among the Meccan merchants, so give me permission to go and get it.? Having got Muhammad?s permission, he said, ?I must tell lies.? The Apostle said, ?Tell them.??

Qur?an 8:58 ?If you apprehend treachery from a people with whom you have a treaty, retaliate by breaking off relations with them.?

Qur?an 47:24 ?Do they not understand the Qur?an? Nay, on the hearts there are locks preventing them from understanding.?

Ishaq:548 ?By Allah, the black mass has spread. Abu Bakr said, ?There is not much honesty among people nowadays.??

Qur?an 5:41 ?Whomever Allah wants to deceive you cannot help. Allah does not want them to know the truth because he intends to disgrace them and then torture them.?

Qur?an 5:101 ?Believers! Do not ask questions about things which if made plain and declared to you, may vex you, causing you trouble.?

Qur?an 5:102 ?Some people before you did ask such questions, and on that account they lost their faith and became disbelievers.?

Ishaq:567 ?Muhammad informed Umar [the second Caliph], and he called the Prophet a liar.?

Tabari IX:36/Ishaq:596 ??Prophet, this group of Ansar have a grudge against you for what you did with the booty and how you divided it among you own people.? ?Ansar, what is this talk I hear from you? What is the grudge you harbor against me? Do you think ill of me? Did I not come to you when you were erring and needy, and then made rich by Allah?? ?You came to us discredited, when your message was rejected by the Quraysh, and we believed you. You were forsaken and deserted and we assisted you. You were a fugitive and we took you in, sheltering you. You were poor and in need, and we comforted you.?

Bukhari:V6B60N662 ?Allah?s Apostle said, ?Some eloquent speech is as effective as magic.??

Tabari VI:110 ?When Muhammad brought a revelation from Allah canceling what Satan had cast on the tongue of His Prophet, the Quraysh said, ?Muhammad has repented of [reneged on] what he said concerning the position of our gods with Allah. He has altered [the bargain] and brought something else.? Those two phrases which Satan had cast on Muhammad?s tongue of were in the mouth of every polytheist. The Messenger said, ?I have fabricated things against Allah and have imputed to Him words which He has not spoken.??

Qur?an 40:32 ?O my People! I fear a Day when there will be mutual wailing. No one shall defend you against Allah. Any whom Allah causes to err, there is no guide. That is how Allah leads the skeptic astray.?

Ishaq:248 ?Allah has sealed their hearts and their hearing, blinding them so that they will never find guidance. And that is because they have declared you a liar and they do not believe in what has come down from their Lord to you even though they believe in all that came down before you. For opposing you they will have an awful punishment.?

Qur?an 2:6 ?As for the disbelievers, it is the same whether you warn them or not; they will not believe. Allah has set a seal upon their hearts, upon their hearing, and a covering over their eyes. There is a great torment for them.?

Qur?an 2:9 ?They deceive Allah and those who believe, but they only deceive themselves, and realize (it) not! In their hearts is a disease; and Allah has increased their disease. Grievous is the painful doom they (incur) because they (lie).?

Qur?an 8:18 ?This and surely; Allah weakens the deceitful plots of unbelieving infidels.?

Qur?an 8:30 ?Remember how the unbelievers plotted against you (Muhammad). They plotted, and Allah too had arranged a plot; but Allah is the best schemer.? Ishaq:323 ?I am the best of plotters. I deceived them with My guile so that I delivered you from them.?

Qur?an 8:49 ?When the hypocrites and those in whose hearts is a disease said: ?The religion has deceived and misled them.??

Qur?an 8:71 ?If they try to deceive you, remember they have deceived Allah before.?

Tabari VII:85/Ishaq:363 ?The Jews of the Qaynuqa replied, ?Muhammad, do you think that we are like your people? Do not be deluded by the fact that you met a people with no knowledge and you made good use of your opportunity.??

Ishaq:365/Tabari VII:94 ?Muhammad bin Maslamah said, ?O Messenger, we shall have to tell lies.? ?Say what you like,? Muhammad replied. ?You are absolved, free to say whatever you must.??

Qur?an 61:5 ?Moses said: ?O my people, why do you annoy and insult me, when you well know I am Allah?s Messenger?? Then when they turned away, Allah caused them to be deceived.?

Bukhari:V4B52N233 ?Allah?s Apostle forbade the people to travel to a hostile country carrying copies of the Qur?an. [He said:] Unbelievers will never understand our signs and revelations.?

Ishaq:248 ?Allah increases their sickness. A tormented doom awaits the Jews. Allah said, ?They are mischief makers. They are fools. The Jews deny the truth and contradict what the Apostle has brought. I will mock them and let them continue to wander blindly.??

Bukhari:V4B52N147 ?Allah?s Apostle said, ?A man may seem as if he were practicing the deeds of Paradise while in fact he is from the people of Hell.??

Qur?an 13:27 ?Say, ?God leads whosoever He wills astray.??

Ishaq:383 ?One of the young men?s fathers confronted Muhammad and said, ?You have robbed my son of his life by your deception and brought great sorrow to me.??

Ishaq:442 ?By Muhammad?s order we beguiled them.?

Ishaq:496 ??By Allah you lie,? one said to another. ?Liar yourself!? ?You are a disaffected person arguing on behalf of the diseased.?

Bukhari:V4B53N408 ?When the Prophet wanted to perform the Umrah, the Quraysh stipulated that he could not preach (Islam). So Ali started writing a treaty. ?This is what Muhammad, Apostle of Allah, has agreed to.? The (Meccans) said, ?If we believed that you were the Apostle of Allah we would have followed you. So write, ?This is what Muhammad bin Abdallah has agreed to.? The Apostle could not write, so he asked Ali to erase the expression: ?Apostle of Allah.? On that Ali said, ?I will never erase it.? Muhammad said, ?Let me see the paper.? The Prophet
erased the expression with his own hand.?

Bukhari:V5B59N369 ?Allah?s Apostle said, ?Who is willing to kill Ka?b bin Ashraf who has hurt Allah and His Apostle?? Thereupon Muhammad bin Maslamah got up saying, ?O Allah?s Apostle! Would you like me to kill him?? The Prophet said, ?Yes,? Maslamah said, ?Then allow me to say false things in order to deceive him.? The Prophet said, ?You may say such things.??

Just the lies alone are enough for me to know that allah isnt Yahweh. Yahweh doesn't lie or deceive. But maybe you'll have a better time at explaining these.


Old Post 06-20-2004 08:39 PM
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post #15  quote:

"73 out of the 75 Terrorist raids that Mo personally went on in the Qu'ran were unprovoked.The other 2 are when the Meccans were tired of the treatment."

Ok tell me about these terrorist raids, tell where it tells you about these raids and how were they terrorist raids?

I'll prove another of devildogs lies to you now. here is his comment from post #81 in thread about Islam :

"Ever hear of Abd-Allah, or Slave-to-Allah?
Now why would someone name a kid ?Slave-to-Allah? a generation before Islam?s prophet claimed Allah was the creator-god of the universe?"


What he has done here is mis spell the name of a man.
The correct spelling is "Abdullah".
This is an arabic name and has been around before the time of the prophet, by changing the spelling, he's made his own theory up and misinterpreted the whole thing.
I tell you I would love to have a name that meant Slave to Allah.
As Allah is God and God is our master.....

Heres the rest, a reminder for you about the translation of the Quran and who the translators are that you use and how they do not give the correct translation:

The first translation of the Quran into a Western language was made into Latin. It was carried out by Robertus Rotenesis and Hermannus Dalmata in 1143, but was not published until 1543. In 1647 Andre du Ryer, French Consul in Egypt, translated it into French. This was later described by Sale as having mistakes on every page besides frequent transposition, omissions and addition. This French version was the basis of the first English version of the Quran and was described by Savary as "despicable;" Sale described it as a very bad one, no better than its French source. Many later English translations were based on a Latin version by Father Ludovic Maracci in 1698. Maracci was the confessor of Pope Innocent XI and was taught Arabic by a Turk.

One of the most famous English translations was by George Sale in 1734, who included a detailed explanatory discourse. Sale depended largely on Maracci's Latin version (he could not fully master the Arabic language). His tutor was an Italian named Dadichi, the king's interpreter at the time. Although Voltaire asserted that Sale had spent "five and twenty years in Arabia where he had acquired a profound knowledge of the Arabic language and customs," this was ruled out in his biography by the historian R.A. Davenport as being "opposed by the stubborn evidence of dates and facts."

Undeniably Sale's translation of the Quran contains many faults, each one indicating that he could not have fully grasped the Arabic language. But despite its many inaccuracies, Sale's version has gone through some thirty editions; it was retranslated into Dutch in 1742, German in 1764, French in 1750, Russian in 1792, Swedish in 1814, and into Bulgarian in 1902.

Many other attempts to translate the Quran into English have been published by English writers who largely depended on Sale's or other non-Arabic versions. Rodwell's rendering appeared in 1861, Palmer's in 1880, Bell's in 1939 and Dawood's in 1956.


From the above you can see in the Islamic world thier translation is not recognised as accurate. I mean how could A non-arab accurately translate the Quran, and the three last individual that you give refrence to are not recognised as accurate.

So your telling me you have been giving people quotes from individuals translations that are not even recognised. Obviously you recognise them because you want the translation to say something that is not correct.

The following is what you had to say about your faith:

PS I told you my faith. I am not a "religious" person.

When you dont even actually practice a faith, what right do you then have of stopping others from practicing thiers and on top of that lying about their faith to others.
In the Bible and in the Quran it openly speaks of people like you, who like to move others away from thier faith ---- you are not a good person....

More evidence about how much you really know about religion and in this case about your own religion!!!

I said:

Moses to was very frightened and thought he had gone mad, when God first established a link with him.

and you replied:

Another flat out lie. Where is some proof please. You are about a joke Raven.

Then I quoted:

In a burning bush, God appears to Moses and says Come now, therefore, and I will send you to Pharaoh that you may bring My people, the children of Israel, out of Egypt. (Ex.3: 10) Moses is understandably shaken with the vision and the responsibility. He stalls for time and asks God His name. Moses wants to know what to say when they ask: What is his name? And God said to Moses: I AM WHO I AM (Ex.3: 14)

and you replied:

Wow, another lie!! I'm shocked. Show me the scripture that says "Moses is understandably shaken with the vision and the responsibility", as you just claimed. Even if that did exist, it is a far cry from wanting to kill yourself after meeting with him. That part isn't in any of my Bibles.

And to this a Christian had to correct you, Dekkah siad:

"although he didn't quote the scripture exactly, he was right: Moses was scared. Everytime an angel appeared to someone in the Bible, the first words out of their mouth were "Fear not."

raven wasn't lying.

But, yes, it is still a far cry from trying to kill yourself."


See as you don't even know your own scriptures accurately what right do you have to discuss Muslim scriptures.
Learn about your own religion first then discuss other peoples faith.................

For everyone who wants to see that I am not lying go to the thread About Islam, and you can see it all for yourself!!!


Old Post 06-20-2004 09:10 PM
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post #16  quote:

quote:
raven200 said this in post #15 :
"73 out of the 75 Terrorist raids that Mo personally went on in the Qu'ran were unprovoked.The other 2 are when the Meccans were tired of the treatment."

Ok tell me about these terrorist raids, tell where it tells you about these raids and how were they terrorist raids?

This all hapened in the first 10 years. I am tired of being the only one who provides proof so maybe a little later I will post some of them. But the question is WHY don't you know your own religion that you so fervently defend?

I'll prove another of devildogs lies to you now. here is his comment from post #81 in thread about Islam :

"Ever hear of Abd-Allah, or Slave-to-Allah?
Now why would someone name a kid ?Slave-to-Allah? a generation before Islam?s prophet claimed Allah was the creator-god of the universe?"


What he has done here is mis spell the name of a man.
The correct spelling is "Abdullah".
This is an arabic name and has been around before the time of the prophet, by changing the spelling, he's made his own theory up and misinterpreted the whole thing.
I tell you I would love to have a name that meant Slave to Allah.
As Allah is God and God is our master.....

I bet you would And allah is not God, it is the name of a pagan rock idol. A moon god. Get it?

OK this is the proof that I lied??????? Because you think the spelling of Mo's dad should be Abdullah, you call me a liar Did you provide any proof that this is the way it is spelled? No you didn't. Did I provide proof from the oldest source of Islam pertaining to the spelling? Yes I did. Here is what I posted in that thread "about Islam". Oh yea, I almost forgot. It was post # 79 were I said the above ......not 81 as you are claiming. You can't even get that right.

After you accuse me of spelling it wrong I said;

post# 85
Okay, let me tell you a story from the annals of Islam. Abdul Muttalib, a wealthy pagan worshiper born two generations before Muhammad, was the custodian of the Ka?aba. One day he vowed to the rock gods that if given ten sons, he would sacrifice one to the stones. Bad move, ?cause eventually he had ten. Foolishly faithful to the rocks, he rolled the dice to determine which son would die. His youngest, Abd-Allah lost. Yes, that means slave to Allah. To make this long Pagan story shorter, after consulting with sorcerers he didn't have to do it.You see, Abd-Allah, the boy who was nearly sacrificed?he was Muhammad?s father. You should know this Raven. Abd-Allah, died in Yathrib.

post # 93
Ishaq:66/Tabari VI:2 ?It is alleged, and Allah only knows the truth, that Abdul Muttalib encountered opposition when he was digging Zamzam. He vowed that if given ten sons, to make his labor less arduous and to protect him, he would sacrifice one of them to Allah at the Ka?aba.?

There is my proof. Where is yours? Did ya notice the spelling? Do I need to show you every other time it was written? I suppose that the oldest source of Islam has it wrong and you,Raven, have it right. And as far as your assertion that Allah is arabic for God, read this.

The transliterated phrase from Arabic reads, ?La ilaha illAllah.? A word for word translation into English would read: La [no] ilaha [god] ill [except or but] Allah [Allah]. The important thing to note is that the word ?Allah? is a name and is not the word for god. If ?Allah? were the word for god, then the phrase would read, ?there is no allah but allah. Clearly it does not.



And now, for some reason you started talking about Quran translators

From the above you can see in the Islamic world thier translation is not recognised as accurate. I mean how could A non-arab accurately translate the Quran, and the three last individual that you give refrence to are not recognised as accurate.

According to who?? Can you PLEASE provide some evidence of SOMETHING? All english translations are wrong? Which one and who says?

So your telling me you have been giving people quotes from individuals translations that are not even recognised. Obviously you recognise them because you want the translation to say something that is not correct.
Tell me which one isn't "recognized"( thats funny) and tell me why. Then give me scriptures from various examples showing me how this "unrecognized" version is changing the message. OK????????? Is that too much to ask??? The following is what you had to say about your faith:

Now we're talking about MY faith?
That diversion wasn't obvious


PS I told you my faith. I am not a "religious" person.

When you dont even actually practice a faith, what right do you then have of stopping others from practicing thiers and on top of that lying about their faith to others.
In the Bible and in the Quran it openly speaks of people like you, who like to move others away from thier faith ---- you are not a good person....

More evidence about how much you really know about religion and in this case about your own religion!!!


I never said I didn't "pactice a faith". I said I wasn't religious. Neither is Yahweh. You won't find the word religion one time in the OT. You will find it just a couple times in the NT. Both times were derogatory. Infact, Yashua's most outspoken exchanges were against religion and its leaders. I have a relationship with Yahweh. A covenant( judaism)is a fancy way of saying a relationship and Christianity is just that- a relationship. Yahweh doesn't require mindless rites and rituals to gain favor in His sight. Does this info about me somehow repudiate the mountain of evidence against Islam? Can we stay focussed?




I said:

Moses to was very frightened and thought he had gone mad, when God first established a link with him.

and you replied:

Another flat out lie. Where is some proof please. You are about a joke Raven.

Then I quoted:

In a burning bush, God appears to Moses and says Come now, therefore, and I will send you to Pharaoh that you may bring My people, the children of Israel, out of Egypt. (Ex.3: 10) Moses is understandably shaken with the vision and the responsibility. He stalls for time and asks God His name. Moses wants to know what to say when they ask: What is his name? And God said to Moses: I AM WHO I AM (Ex.3: 14)


The teal highlight are your opinion only!!!!! Lets read further to see if you ever did provide that proof.

and you replied:

Wow, another lie!! I'm shocked. Show me the scripture that says "Moses is understandably shaken with the vision and the responsibility", as you just claimed. Even if that did exist, it is a far cry from wanting to kill yourself after meeting with him. That part isn't in any of my Bibles.

And to this a Christian had to correct you, Dekkah siad:

OK so you admit right here that you did not provide proof. You are hoping that Dekka does.

"although he didn't quote the scripture exactly, he was right: Moses was scared. Everytime an angel appeared to someone in the Bible, the first words out of their mouth were "Fear not."


[COLOR=blue]Hmmmmmmmmmmm still haven't seen anything yet that remotely comes close to "Moses is understandably shaken with the vision and the responsibility".



See as you don't even know your own scriptures accurately what right do you have to discuss Muslim scriptures.
Learn about your own religion first then discuss other peoples faith.................

Do you even see what a joke you are Raven? You have proven NOTHING.


For everyone who wants to see that I am not lying go to the thread About Islam, and you can see it all for yourself!!!


Please do!!! I encourage and promote it highly, since islam is destroyed in this and other threads here at INReview. You will see how pathetic Raven's attempt is at trying to justify a False, hateful religion.



Old Post 06-20-2004 10:42 PM
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post #17  quote:

unlike the Bible that spans to several thousand B.C. - the Qu'ran was conceived and written around 500+ A.D. hmmm...which was matered after which....
i've read some of the Qu'ran and it appears to be a copy of the bible re-written.
per the Quran it wasn't Isaac that was going to be killed but his brother - etc etc
and it does this through out the entire book.
And they worship a big black rock by banging their heads into it asking for virgins. that rock was worshiped and had sacrifices done upon it. human sacrifices by those who worsipped ba'al.
Ba'al means devil, demon, etc.


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post #18  quote:

quote:
Dreamzwalker said this in post #17 :
i've read some of the Qu'ran and it appears to be a copy of the bible re-written.


A bad copy. They butchered every Biblical account I know of. Keep in mind that Mo was illiterate and so was everyone around him. That is the foundation of why they were butchered but the main reason is because Mo had to lie. He had to tie in Abraham, Noah, Jesus etc to Mecca in order for this to even think about flying. Of coarse the Jews, who could read, saw right through it.


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post #19  quote:

quote:
devildog said this in post #18 :


They butchered every Biblical account I know of. Keep in mind that Mo was illiterate and so was everyone around him.

Indeed they did butcher every account that i've seen. they turned it around and its the complete opposite of what it says in Bible.

Mo was illiterate due to running a tavern. Mo's Tavern. He was probably drunk when he wrote the book.


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post #20  quote:

First off I am not Muslim this is what I noticed.

quote:
devildog said this in post #3 :
From POD; Read if you have the courage. Yes it is long but it is worth it.

...
These tests were crucial because Islam?according to Muhammad?was the result of Abraham?s obedience. Yet the Qur?an is deficient?completely silent on the nature of these trials and their significance. So rather than let Allah wallow in blissful ignorance, the Companions rushed in to save the day. Tabari II:98 ?Islam consists of thirty parts, and no one ever tested with this obligation carried it out, except Abraham.? ??And when his Lord tried Abraham with commands,? means that Allah tested him with the acts of ritual purification, five in the head and five in the body. [5+5=30] Those in the head are: trimming the mustache, rinsing the mouth, cleansing the nostrils with water, using the toothstick, and parting the hair with the fingers. Those in the body are: paring the nails, shaving the pubic hair, circumcision, plucking the armpit, and washing off traces of feces and urine.?

That wasn?t any better. How about this: Tabari II:99 ?Abraham was tested with ten Islamic practices: rinsing the mouth, cleansing the nostrils with water, trimming the mustache, using a toothstick, plucking the armpit, paring the nails, washing finger joints, circumcision, shaving pubic hair, and washing the rear and vulva.? So after adding: ?bathing on Friday,? a fourth version gets ritualistic with: ?walking around the Ka?aba, running between Safa and Marwah, stoning pillars, and hurrying.? I disdain ritual. I am, therefore, unimpressed with its justification. Ritual is a tool used by power-hungry men to condition the masses and subject them to their rule. It is a control device for the oppressor to use against the ignorant. It separates men from God and discourages rational inquiry. But no ritual has ever been this ridiculous.

So, because it is easy makes the religion wrong? Jesus only said beleive and follow me. That sounds pretty basic, doesnt make ti wrong does it? This argument I do not understand.

Tabari claims that these Hadiths somehow illuminate portions of the 2nd surah. Let?s see how: 002.118 ?Those who are ignorant say: ?Why doesn?t Allah speak to us Himself or show us a sign?? So said the people before them. We have indeed shown our clear signs already.? Neither Allah nor Muhammad ever bothered to provide any proof of divine inspiration?no signs, no miracles, no prophecies?so this, once again, refers to the miracles of the Bible.

Well of course it is. No muslim will deny that Abraham, who IS from the Bible, is part is Islam. The Qu'ran mentions many times that followers are to believe in past revelations. Again this argument does not really prove anything.


?Lo! We have sent you (Muhammad) with the truth, a bringer of glad tidings and a warner. And you will not be asked about the companions of the Blazing Hell Fire.? That?s almost funny. Allah is telling Muhammad that he won?t be asked about hell. Why then do you suppose hell is the Qur?an?s most oft repeated subject?
002.120 ?Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with you unless you follow their form of religion. Say: ?The guidance of Allah is Guidance. ? Those to whom We have given the Book read it as it ought to be read.? The Qur?an cannot be true and confirm the Bible as Allah claims if Judeo-Christianity is an errant ?form of religion.?

What is being said is that Jesus says I am the only way, and the Qu'ran says this is wrong. The Qu'ran says any all who believe in God are following the correct path. Again, this sounds like slander, makes it seem like the Qu'ran hates all Chrsitians/jews but just says thier way of exclusive thinking is wrong. (2nd Surah, Cow).


?These [Jews] believe in it; and whoever disbelieves it are losers. Children of Israel, call to mind the special favor which I bestowed upon you, and that I [Allah] preferred you to all others and made you excel the nations.? Muhammad was in a pickle. Without the Jews being Yahweh?s chosen people, the prophets and scriptures upon which he based Islam lost their relevancy. If they were irrelevant, so was Islam.

No, it says who disbelieves is a loser, read the quote.

Like so much of the Qur?an, this surah provides no intelligent transition between subjects. It has rambled on about god?s inability to provide a sign, to telling us that Muhammad was a warner. It flip-flops from telling him not to follow the religion of the Jews to calling the Jews God?s chosen people. Then after condemning Christ?s mission and crucifying Muhammad?s credibility in the process, it moves to a revisionist account of the Biblical patriarch Abraham. 002.124 ?And (remember) when Abraham?s Lord tried him with (certain) commands, which he fulfilled: He said: ?I will make you an Imam [Islamic leader] to the Nations.? He pleaded: ?And also Imams from my offspring!? He answered: ?But My Promise does not include evil-doers.?? The nature of the trials, or commands, which Abraham allegedly fulfilled was not listed. Considering that the passage of these trials made Abraham the father of Islam?the Imam of the nations?the omission was serious. Not surprisingly, it sent the Muslim sages scurrying for answers. Sadly, what we just reviewed was the best they could do. The Noble Qur?an translators even include this Hadith: Bukhari:V7B72N779 ?I heard the Prophet saying, ?Five practices are characteristics of the Fitra [religion of Abraham]: circumcision, shaving the pubic hair, cutting the moustaches short, clipping the nails, and depilating the hair of the armpits.?? This ?religion? can?t be fixed. It needs to be discarded.


He said this argument already.


Every Biblical story quoted in the Qur?an was designed to make Muhammad?s unprophet-like behavior seem religious or to make Islamic rituals seem sane. The next verse was no exception. 002.125 ?Remember when We made the House a place of assembly for men and a place of safety; and the place Abraham stood to pray; and We covenanted with Abraham and Ishmael that they should sanctify My House for those who circumambulate it, use it as a retreat, bow down, prostrating themselves.?
002.126 ?And remember [This is an odd command. What are they remembering this from? The Bible doesn?t say anything remotely like this, and no other scriptures refer to Abraham. So, its saying 'and remember' ... like 'dont forget' this doesnt make it wrong.] Abraham said: ?My Lord, make this a City of Peace, and feed its people with fruits, such of them as believe in Allah and the Last Day.?? Even this is odd. Muhammad was verbally attacked during the entire time he preached in Mecca. As a result, he attacked Mecca militarily at the end of his career, putting him in direct opposition to the patriarch?s supposed prophecy.
?He said: ?As for those who reject, indulge them; soon I will compel them to the doom of the torment of Hell Fire, an evil destination!?? To compel is to induce or coerce. Why would God want to act like Satan and coerce someone into hell?

The God of the Bible sends people to hell as well, why does the God of the Bible do this? Because they are sinners and bad people. Because the God of the Qu'ran is going to send people to hell as well, doesnt make him satan.

002.127 ?Remember, Abraham and Ishmael raised the foundations of the House: ?Our Lord! Accept this service from us.?? While I realize that no one was writing this stuff down, and that a short pencil is more effective than a long memory, god and his prophet ought to be able to do better. Just two verses earlier Allah said that he had made the House. Next we learn: ??Our Lord, make of us Muslims, submissive to Your (will), and of our offspring a nation of Muslims, bowing to You; and show us our place for the celebration of rites.?? Abraham died 2600 years before the first Muslim was conned into Islam. In fact, the Arabic word for Muslim wouldn?t even be coined for twenty-six centuries.

Okay, well Moses is a founder of Chrsitianity, not around when Christianity started though, why does that make it wrong?

Yet a nation of Muslims is how Muhammad viewed the world. The prophet saw our planet in two pieces?the Nation of Islam (called Dar us-Islam) and lands yet to submit, the House of War (called Dar us-Harb). And while Islam has been at war with itself for all of its thirteen centuries, it will continue to fight the House of War until we capitulate. Many in the Western media and most politicians claim that the war on terrorism is unlike any other because the terrorists come from many nations. Now you know the truth: the terrorists represent one nation?the Nation of Islam.

Well, according to Devildogg we need proof no opinions. Where's the proof for that opinion?


But for it to be believable, he had to revise Abraham first: 002.130 ?He who turns away from the religion of Abraham makes himself a fool with folly.? Abraham did not have a religion. He had a relationship. There were no rituals, rites, prostrations, pilgrimages, or prescribed prayers. In fact, the word ?religion? doesn?t exist in the Torah. It can?t be found even once in all of the Old Testament. 002.131 ?When his Lord said to him, ?Be a Muslim,? he said: ?I submit [Islam] to the Lord of the worlds.?? Likewise, you won?t find the words Muslim, submit, or Islam.
The revisionist Abraham said, ?Our Lord, make us submissive [Islam] to You and make of our seed a nation [of Muslims]. And show us our ways of worship.? If Abraham received scrolls from Allah and performed the Islamic rituals, he could not have asked, ?Show me the ways of worship.?

Honestly, this argument just is silly. If you want me to write a long explaination I will later.

?You, only You, are the Relenting. Our Lord, raise up in their midst a messenger.? You can almost hear Muhammad cry, ?I?m that man.? Jesus has been demoted and Abraham promoted so that Abe could vouch for the credentials of Muhammad and thereby silence the prophet?s critics.
Muhammad believes that Allah chose Islam for Abraham and his sons, especially Jacob, from whom all Jews are descended. 002.132 ?And this was the legacy that Abraham left to his sons by Yah?qub (Jacob); ?Oh my sons! Allah has chosen the Faith for you?the true religion; then die not except in the faith of Islam as Muslims. He said to his sons: ?What will you worship after me?? They said: ?We shall worship your Ilah (God), the Ilah (God) of your fathers, of Abraham, Ishmael and Isaac, the one Ilah (God): To Him we submit in Islam.?? Why do you suppose Yahweh trifled with Judaism and Christianity if Abe were a Muslim? And could Abraham have referred to God as Allah if the name wouldn?t be invented for more than twenty centuries? Even then, it was the proper name of a pagan rock idol in Arabia, not Israel. How do you suppose Yahweh?s name could have been repeated 6,868 times in the Bible if his name were really Allah? And there is no way to weasel out of this predicament. Muslims scream that ?Allah? is simply the Arabic word for ?God,? yet that assertion is in direct conflict with the Qur?an. In this verse the Arabic word for ?God? (capital ?G?), ?Ilah,? was used three times.

Bible uses LORD, and YAHWEH and YHWH etc... i hate this same old name game, its played everywhere, lets no pick on Islam, and promo another religion that has the same problem.

Alright, now that we?ve turned Jews into Muslims it?s time to condemn them. 002.134 ?Those are people whose nation has passed away. They shall reap the fruit of what they did, They say: ?Become Jews or Christians if you would be guided.? Say (Muhammad): ?Nay! Only the Religion of Abraham the Hanif. He was not a Mushrikun [non-Muslim disbeliever].?? The Qur?an says nothing of the religion of Abraham. It only suggests prostrations and rituals?mindless drivel. Since the world?s best-documented faiths are Judaism and Christianity, and their Bible introduced Abraham to the world, you?d think that Islam would at least try. But no, all we get is feeble justification for a sorry mix of pre-existing pagan rites.

Read the quote below, you explain it yourself, muslims believe in"that which is revealed to us and that which was revealed to Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the (twelve Jewish) tribes, and that which Moses and Jesus received, and that which the prophets received from their Lord." Which quotes does he choose to pay attention to?

?Hanifs? were monotheistic poets. While they inspired Islam?s first score of surahs, they were not Muslims. We will discuss them in upcoming chapters.
002.136 ?Say (Muslims): ?We believe in Allah and that which is revealed to us and that which was revealed to Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the (twelve Jewish) tribes, and that which Moses and Jesus received, and that which the prophets received from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and unto Him we have surrendered (in Islam).?? You?d think that after 1400 years, some bright Muslim would ask, ?What was revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, and Jacob?? If Allah knows, why is he keeping it a secret? Or, why not ask, ?If we Muslims shouldn?t make any distinction between the revelations Moses and Jesus received and those claimed by Muhammad, why was Islam necessary??

They think it builds on it.

Baptism by water is the outward expression of having chosen Christ as one?s savior. It is symbolic of receiving his Spirit?the spirit of Yahweh. While the Holy Spirit is something that the Qur?an both acknowledges and condemns, He, like the Torah, Gospels, and Christ, plays no part in Islam. Allah is a distant god. His spirit does not reside in man.

Again, I read opinions about this last argument, but devildogg says we ought to use facts not opinions.



In all honestly devildogg, I stopped reading here. Honestly I am somewhat disappointed. I was hopeing for more objective research and less opinions. There is more opinion than quotes, and the quotes are just placed in. Like someone onced did online here they spliced the bible to say that 'God is ... Dead.'

I hope there is more explainations in other chapters.

Logan.


Old Post 06-20-2004 11:11 PM
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post #21  quote:

For example:

And Jesus said "God is" and Jesus later explained "Dead."

Using quotes to prove what is not true.

Devildogg, I find your personal posts much more thought out and interesting, I am unimpressed with POD so far.

Logan.


Old Post 06-20-2004 11:22 PM
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TWBR
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post #22  quote:

This guy, DevilDog got proved wrong several times but has rejected to recognize it, so why bother arguing with him? Hes going to continue to post his garbage all over again, im sure hes posting it in some other forums.

Old Post 06-22-2004 07:43 PM
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devildog
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post #23  quote:

Never have I been proven wrong, youngster. If you care to furnish some proof, I would love to see it. I won't hold my breath though because you are all mouth and no proof.

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post #24  quote:

I have never seen devildog proven wrong - in fact - My mother (who knows more about religion then anyone i've ever met in my life), knew about what devildog posted in a different thread about the pagan rock and other items. I performed some research after speaking with her and everything that i have decided to research has been correct.
Devildog and i asked everyone to write a rebuttle and all they did was turned around and wrote something about a different religion - and TWBR never said anything but "i hope no one believes this crap" and never said anything else.


Old Post 06-22-2004 10:14 PM
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raven200
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post #25  quote:

make sense please????
Also do you take your mother to be God???

lol I can just imagine what research you performed to come to your amazing conclusion!!!
Please get a grip, your being made a foool of via devildog!!!


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post #26  quote:

Besides mudflinging, I think raven did actually prove devildogg to be not fully correct on the issue of Qusayy and creating the 5pillars before mohammed. I found raven's arguement won.

I also think that on some of the quotes posted that when devildogg says this quotes says to kill all people, it is actually refering to self defence. I explained earlier that a "them" and "these" mistranslation scewed the whole understanding of the quote. Instead of slay "them" implying all people, it said "slay these" which refers to the people just previous talked about in the past verse about people who attack others. So, the slaying is in defence.

On other topics I do agree devildogg has presented a better arguemnt, but these two come to mind.


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post #27  quote:

I dont know if devildogg missed it, but I had some questions about the arguemnt he put forward from the "prophet of Doom' book and he didn't respond. I found the arguments presented by the author to be somewhat weak, although that was just a short passage.

Logan.


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post #28  quote:

Read the book and then make an opinion. Secondly, how can you say Raven proved anything about Qusayy? He didn't provide one single scripture. That makes it an opinion, Logan. I supplied fact after fact proving that the pillars of Islam were established by Qusayy. Should we revisit it? And if you have a problem with one of my quotes, please present it, so I will know what you are talking about and then let me know where it was wrong. "Slay them" and "slay these" doesn't do me any good. Thanks

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post #29  quote:

I posted this about Qusayy


Tabari VI:20 ?Qusayy asked his mother which tribe he came from. She answered, ?You are the son of Kilab ibn Murra ibn Ka?b ibn Luhayy ibn Ghalib ibn Fihr ibn Malik ibn al-Nadr ibn Kinana al-Qurashi. Your tribe lives in Mecca by the Ka?aba. ?This revelation awoke in Qusayy a strong desire to return to Mecca and join his people, the Quraysh.? Mom told her son: ??Wait for a sacred month and go with the pilgrimage.? Qusayy waited until the sacred month arrived and the pilgrims set out. When he reached Mecca and had completed the pilgrimage, he remained there.?

One of the five pillars of Islam is to complete: the hajj pilgrimage to Mecca in the sacred month. This Hadith proves that the rite was idolatrous five generations before Muhammad said it was Islamic. Even Muhammad?s names for the pilgrimages, ?hajj and umrah,? were borrowed from his pagan past.


Tabari VI:20 ?He( Qusayy ) called upon his fellow tribesmen, the Quraysh, to expel the Khuza?a and seize Mecca for themselves. They accepted his proposal and swore an oath of allegiance to him.?

Muhammad would do precisely the same thing. He called upon his raiders to conquer the Quraysh and seized control of the town. They accepted his proposal and swore oaths of allegiance to him. Qusayy?s oath was a call to arms. And as with Muhammad, the Meccans were the enemy, and the target was the Ka?aba.

Tabari, relying on Traditions collected by Ishaq, reports: ?The Arabs, recognizing their religious duty, accompanied Qusayy. Marching to the Ka?aba they said, ?We have better right to this than you.? At that they opposed one another and began to fight. A fierce battle broke out, as a result of which?Qusayy wrested from them the privileges which had been in their hands, thus denying them.?

I feel obliged to share the alternate ?peaceful? version: Tabari VI:21 ?Qusayy purchased the custodianship of the Ka?aba for a skin full of wine and a lute.?
While this variant earns kudos for nonviolence, it?s hardly religious. Purchasing the shrine that stands at the center of Islamic life, their god?s house, for things their religion outlaws?music and booze?is laughably ironic. It?s also an example of conflicting ?truths.?

Having taken what didn?t belong to him, Islam?s founder, the patriarch Qusayy, was now in business, the only viable business in the fledgling burg of Mecca. The largest structure in town, the meeting hall, served as his home and seat of power as it would for Muhammad. Qusayy connected it to the source of wealth, the Ka?aba. He established regular prostration prayer services at the mosque and a plethora of religious rituals.

The Hadith explains how Islamic ritual was actually established five generations before the Qur?an or Muhammad: Ishaq:49 ?The pilgrims gathered in Mecca, went out to the mawqif, completed the hajj and went to Mina?. Nothing now remained of the ritual of the pilgrimage but the ceremony of dispersal from Mina.?

The mawqif is the plain of Arafat, about ten miles east of Mecca. Standing there between midday and sunset is an important part of the Islamic hajj. This is followed by the ifadah, or dispersal.

?On the day of the dispersal they went to stone the jimar, and a man of the Sufah used to throw pebbles for the pilgrims, none throwing until he had thrown.?

This idolatrous rite would also have Islamic overtones. Muhammad, borrowing from his pagan past, instructed Muslims to observe the jimar. Pebbles are thrown at three erections or heaps of stones. They are held to represent the Devil.

Here's another Qusayy invention that Muhammad copied. Tabari VI:31 ?Qusayy instituted the lighting of the fire at al-Muzdalifah when the wuquf took place so that those being driven away from Arafat could see it. This fire continued to be lit in this place throughout the Jahiliyyah. This fire was also lit in the time of the Messenger, and of Abu Bakr, Umar, and Uthman.?

Al-Muzdalifah is between Arafat and Mina. Standing there is one of the Islamic hajj rites, as is the fire. Bakr, Umar, and Uthman are the first three Islamic Caliphs after Muhammad.
Qusayy?s ability to get the Meccans to perform these pagan rites served Muhammad magnificently. By the prophet?s day they were all so ingrained among the Quraysh that the Qur?an simply assumed the continuance of the idolatrous ways without ever mentioning them. They became part of Islamic dogma by way of Hadith such as these.

Tabari VI:25 ?Qusayy?s tribe held him in honor and high esteem. No one opposed his rule in any way.? ?His commands were never disobeyed and nothing he did was opposed.? ?As regards the hajj, he confirmed the right of the Arabs to continue their previous customs. This is because he considered these to be a religious duty which he should not change.?
Qusayy established the cornerstone of Islamic rule: ?submit and obey.? Devotion is a duty, prayer is an obligation, and rituals are compulsory. Islam is devoid of choice.

Moving from entrepreneur to capitalist, our model opportunist soon found himself promoting a series of economic fairs around the holy months. As godfather, he took a cut on each deal. Ishaq:55 ?The rifada was a tax which the Quraysh paid from their property to Qusayy at every festival.?

It, like the Ka?aba concession, was an exclusive franchise, a cartel of sorts. Muhammad would rename the tax the zakat, but it was no different. Islam had its fourth pillar.

Dividing the spoils inequitably between his sons, Qusayy said: Ishaq:55 ?Abd al-Dar, by Allah, I shall make you the equal of the others, even though they have been raised in dignity over you. No man of them shall enter the Ka?aba until you have opened it, no [war] banner shall be tied for the Quraysh to go to battle except by your hand, no man shall drink water in Mecca [from the well of Zamzam] except that which you have provided, no man shall eat food in the pilgrimage season other than your food, and the Quraysh shall not decide their affairs anywhere but in your house.?

In other words, he gave him the family business?Islam. And he swore by the ultimate Islamic god. Allah has emerged and the Five Pillars are now complete. Muhammad would later come to call himself the Messenger of Allah, and he would usurp his authority to resolve a similar family dispute. Initially, these rights and privileges passed him by, going instead to another heir. Jealous, Muhammad said that Allah told him that they were really his.

This incriminating Hadith continues to expose Islam?s pagan roots. Every last detail was incorporated into Islam. Tabari VI:25 ?Then he gave Abd al-Dar the house in which the Quraysh always made their decisions, and gave him the office of being Ka?aba?s custodian, declaring war, presiding over the assembly, and collecting the rifadah, a tax levied in every pilgrimage season by the Quraysh according to their wealth and handed over to Qusayy. It was imposed on the Quraysh by Qusayy, who said to them when he commanded them to pay it, ?Quraysh, you are neighbors of Allah, people of his Ka?aba and people of the sacred precincts of the Haram. The pilgrims are guests of Allah and visitors to His House. They did so, and every year they levied a tax on their property and paid it to Qusayy and he would use it for the pilgrims during the days of Mina. This institution of his became the state of affairs among the Quraysh during the whole of the Jahiliyyah [pre-Islamic period of Ignorance] up to the time Allah brought Islam, and then became a part of Islam, continuing to this day.?

Ishaq:57 ?Allah?s Apostle said, ?Whatever deal there was in the days of ignorance Islam strengthens it.??

Put a fork in it. Islam has cooked its own goose. The last of the Islamic pillars has been established and we are still scores of years from the first Qur?anic revelation . The religious scam has been established right down to the smallest detail, and they even admit it. All Muhammad had to do was steal it.

The Qusayy model had a single prophet. His god was now Allah. This was a match for Islam?s first pillar. The prostration prayer was an obligatory duty and it was performed facing his Ka?aba?the second pillar. The religious tax, or zakat, was instituted and collected in Allah?s name?the third pillar. The hajj pilgrimage was laid out and observed in all its ritualistic detail?the fourth pillar. And en route to Mecca, Qusayy observed the holy month of Ramadhan and Tahannuth fasting?the fifth pillar.


Old Post 06-23-2004 01:36 AM
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post #30  quote:

Raven's next post was;

In relation to Devildog ---- he is beyond help, he asks me to state fact, now why would I as a muslim make lies up I do not wish to be punished by God, everything I had explained to him is in our Books and all muslims are aware of all of these facts. Its a shame that people like devildog are trying to stop people who are not muslims from understanding the religion, by making lies up.

One last thing for devildog. Qusayy was not the patriarch of ISLAM how could he be when ISLAM came when the Holy prophet came and Qusayy was before the time of the Holy prophet and I have already told you he was a pagan. Paganism and Islam are two totally different things, Devildog I think you need to do your research a bit more honestly and clearly.

Also you gave a long quote of what the Holy prophets Mother said, well can you tell me what authentic source did you get such a quote, as I have already said not all hadith are authentic, we can find out the authenticity of a hadtih if it correlates with what is written in the Quran, we cannot deny what is written in the Holy Quran.
ALSO THE HOLY PROPHETS (PEACE BE ON HIM) MOTHER DIED WHEN HE WAS SIX, why would she be sending a six year old on a pilgrimage.

But do you not understand when I say that the Holy prophet followed non of the idol worshiping customs of his time .

The Quran speaks of the way these Idol worshipors were living before the Holy prophet came.

Hoy Quran (30:42)

Corruption was spread over the land and the sea becuase of what men's hands has wrought, that he may make them taste the fruit of some of thier doings, so that they may turn back from evil.

May allah help your soul DEVILDOG.



And you think Raven won this debate, Logan? Like usual, I didn't see anything except opinion.


Old Post 06-23-2004 01:41 AM
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