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devildog
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Allah- The Moon Good post #1  quote:



http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/moongod.htm

Old Post 04-29-2004 05:10 PM
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TWBR
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post #2  quote:

So lets say im a Arab Christian, and i say " God is the Greatest " in Arabic, which is " Allah U Akbar ", does that mean that Christians ( which they dont, i know better than that ) pray to a moon God?

Second of all, in the Quran, it states that Allah created the Planets and the Universe, so how can Allah be a Moon God when Allah created the Moon?

Allah means God in Arabic.


Old Post 04-29-2004 08:29 PM
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devildog
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post #3  quote:

quote:
TWBR said this in post #2 :
So lets say im a Arab Christian, and i say " God is the Greatest " in Arabic, which is " Allah U Akbar ", does that mean that Christians ( which they dont, i know better than that ) pray to a moon God?

Second of all, in the Quran, it states that Allah created the Planets and the Universe, so how can Allah be a Moon God when Allah created the Moon?

Allah means God in Arabic.


Hate to be the one to point out your ignorance of your own religion again but........Allahu Akbar!? is the war chant of Islamic terrorists everywhere, even today. The fact it?s called ?The Prayer of Fear? reveals the doctrine?s purpose. It means Allah is Greatest and these are the words used by terrorists before they committ murder. Now, lets look at the phrase, "no god but Allah"

The transliterated phrase from Arabic reads, ?La ilaha illAllah.? A word for word translation into English would read: La [no] ilaha [god] ill [except or but] Allah [Allah]. The important thing to note is that the word ?Allah? is a name and is not the word for god. If ?Allah? were the word for god, then the phrase would read, ?there is no allah but allah. Clearly it does not. The Qur?an itself claims that Allah is the personal name of the Islamic god: (017.110) ?Say, Call Him Allah or call Him Ar-Rahman; whatever the name you call Him, all His names are beautiful.? If ?Allah? were the word for god, then Islam?s god is nameless. There is also no evidence that the word ?Allah? is a contraction of the words ?al ilah,? which means, ?the god.? If it were, then again, the phrase would read, ?there is no allah but allah.? You should know, as part of the first ?Pillar of Islam,? this issue is critical as Islam claims that the God of the Bible (whose name is Yahweh) and Allah are one in the same and that we all, therefore, worship the same god. Next


Old Post 04-29-2004 09:27 PM
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TWBR
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post #4  quote:

OMG, you a Catholic or a Christian, or whatever you are, is telling me a Muslim what Allah U Akbar means!?

Allah U Akbar means " God is the Greatest "

Look, there is no way of beating this claim, no matter how much crap you give us, in Arabic there is a word that means God, but what is it? Allah

Go and ask a Arab Christian how they say God in Arabic,

The Fact is that some Christians are always trying to separate themselvs from Muslims by saying that we dont have the same God,

How do we stop war and terrorism and bring peace into this world?

All Jews, Muslims, and Christians join together, recognize that we all three pray to the same God.

Now, some Muslims hate Jews, They hate them for three reasons,

1. They are responsible for the death of Jesus ( this is shared with Christians )

2. Israel

3. Jewish Extrimists have been accused of trying to portray Islam as a bad religion.


Old Post 04-29-2004 09:38 PM
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devildog
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post #5  quote:

quote:
TWBR said this in post #4 :
OMG, you a Catholic or a Christian, or whatever you are, is telling me a Muslim what Allah U Akbar means!?

I've also been the one schooling you all along. Have you countered my claims ONCE with fact? I think not.

Allah U Akbar means " God is the Greatest "

Keep telling yourself that

Look, there is no way of beating this claim, no matter how much crap you give us, in Arabic there is a word that means God, but what is it? Allah

Did you skip past the Arabic lesson in my post? I clearly proved this wrong.


The Fact is that some Christians are always trying to separate themselvs from Muslims by saying that we dont have the same God,

A fact I can prove ALL day

How do we stop war and terrorism and bring peace into this world?

Expose Islam for what it is

All Jews, Muslims, and Christians join together, recognize that we all three pray to the same God.

Blasphamous
Now, some Muslims hate Jews, They hate them for three reasons,

1. They are responsible for the death of Jesus ( this is shared with Christians )

Yet Another ignorant thing to say.

2. Israel

Great reason

3. Jewish Extrimists have been accused of trying to portray Islam as a bad religion.

Man thats funny. I think the writings are quite damning on their own, simpleton. 0 for 3 ! I think you know why Muslims hate.



Old Post 04-29-2004 10:05 PM
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TWBR
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post #6  quote:

I've also been the one schooling you all along. Have you countered my claims ONCE with fact? I think not.

You never have proved anything to us, you piss us off with your anti-islam claims and your so closed-minded, you wont admit anything that cotradicts your claims even though good facts and evidence is shown.

Keep telling yourself that

Then what does it mean!?

Did you skip past the Arabic lesson in my post? I clearly proved this wrong.

Then tell me, whats the Arabic word for God!?

A fact I can prove ALL day

Using your crappy claims?

Expose Islam for what it is

The fastest growing religion in the world? Has been here for thousands of years, if there is something to expose about Islam, then it would have been exposed already.

Blasphamous

Blasphamous are your claims

Yet Another ignorant thing to say.

Its a fact, they didnt kill Jesus, but they urged the Roman King to do so.

Great reason

Thanks

Man thats funny. I think the writings are quite damning on their own, simpleton. 0 for 3 ! I think you know why Muslims hate.

It seems like you have an education of a 5 year old, you give us verses from the Quran which dont even support violence, and you call them violent, most of them are self-defense.


Old Post 04-30-2004 01:31 AM
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devildog
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post #7  quote:

quote:
TWBR said this in post #6 :
I've also been the one schooling you all along. Have you countered my claims ONCE with fact? I think not.

You never have proved anything to us, you piss us off with your anti-islam claims and your so closed-minded, you wont admit anything that cotradicts your claims even though good facts and evidence is shown.


I have posted ,literally, thousands of damning passages written within the books of Islam. You ( and anyone else) has retorted with nothing.Zilch
Keep telling yourself that

Then what does it mean!?

I already explained it to you. Go back and read. And I have the education of a 5 year old?
Did you skip past the Arabic lesson in my post? I clearly proved this wrong.

Then tell me, whats the Arabic word for God!?
GO BACK AND READ!!
A fact I can prove ALL day

Using your crappy claims?

What are the crappy ones? I use the most trusted sources of Islam as I have told you countless times. Stop talking about it and SHOW me something. If you're gonna sing it....bring it.

Expose Islam for what it is

The fastest growing religion in the world? Has been here for thousands of years, if there is something to expose about Islam, then it would have been exposed already.

Really? How could it be exposed if everyone is being lied to. Proof?It is your religion and look how much you know. You know absolutely nothing about the very thing responsible for your soul. People strap bombs to their chests because of it. Do you really think they would, if they knew the things that are being kept from them? Use your head.
Blasphamous

Blasphamous are your claims

To claim that we share the same God is not only factually incorrect, but idiotic and yes Blasphamous. Like usual , I proved this to be true long ago but you perpetually forget the things I post. Hmmmmm

Yet Another ignorant thing to say.

Its a fact, they didnt kill Jesus, but they urged the Roman King to do so.

There are several ways to put blame if that is your intention. Ciaphus, Pilate, Herod...., but the thing is, He knew why he was here and knew exactly what was going to happen. If he wanted to avoid it, he could have easily. We are ALL to blame, smart one. Man thats funny. I think the writings are quite damning on their own, simpleton. 0 for 3 ! I think you know why Muslims hate.

It seems like you have an education of a 5 year old, you give us verses from the Quran which dont even support violence, and you call them violent, most of them are self-defense.

Yeah, all 3000 of them


Old Post 04-30-2004 04:23 AM
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post #8  quote:

many English-speakers think that the word "cheese" refers to the dairy based product. But it doesn't. It is actually another word for styrofoam.

Now, I'm sure people are going to get out "dictionaries" and try to prove me wrong, but this is not proof. The dictionary definition is wrong. And people who speak English have no business trying to refute these claims. They just don't want to admit that they've been using the word "cheese" wrong for all these years.

So go ahead and try to prove me wrong.


Old Post 05-01-2004 08:20 PM
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devildog
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post #9  quote:



Old Post 05-01-2004 10:26 PM
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NadyaElqadi
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post #10  quote:

Hey devildog!

[Edit: totally unecessary comments....]


Last edited by Sierradaddy on 05-07-2004 at 01:32 AM |
Old Post 05-07-2004 12:01 AM
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post #11  quote:

quote:
TWBR said this in post #6 :

Great reason

Thanks


err i actaully think he was refering to, after WW2, former Palestine (Israel) was taken from the islamic people and given to Jewish people as some kind of..... "sorry were ****ing idiots. you got killed by a bunch of germans so lets take this land that isnt ours and give it to you, your 'friends', the US"

IMHO, thats some ********. Palestine wasnt even ours to take and give away.

(Correct me if im wrong about any of this, a catholic told me )


Old Post 05-31-2004 01:22 AM
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loganc
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post #12  quote:

TWBR, I just have an honest question.

Does "ilaha" mean God in arabic as well?

Logan.


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TWBR
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post #13  quote:

Ill have to ask my parents.

I asked my Christian Arab friend if Christian Arabs used the word Allah and if not, what word did they use for God.

He replied saying that Arab Christians do use the word Allah.

I belive that Jesus did use the word Allah too...


Old Post 06-01-2004 03:41 AM
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devildog
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post #14  quote:

Logan, just look into the sources for your answers. Does it matter what someone tells you ( unless they provide proof )?

The Islamic scriptures- the oldest sources of Islam proves that Ilah is the word used throughout the scriptures.For example, the translated Qu'ran would read "no god but Allah"? The transliterated phrase from Arabic reads, ?La ilaha illAllah.? A word for word translation into English would read: La [no] ilaha [god] ill [except or but] Allah [Allah]. The important thing to note is that the word ?Allah? is a name and is not the word for god. If ?Allah? were the word for god, then the phrase would read, ?there is no allah but allah. Clearly it does not.

And likewise, you will not find the words Allah, Mohammad, Ka'aba, Mecca ect. anywhere in the Hebrew Bible. So no Yashua( Jesus) NEVER used the word Allah.


Old Post 06-01-2004 04:07 AM
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post #15  quote:

Yes,
I understand that part. I just am asking twbr, if this is true then he should agree, correct?


Old Post 06-01-2004 04:23 AM
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post #16  quote:

Yes Logan, he should agree, but will he is the question? I am also interested if Raven will acknowledge the overwhelming proof I provided, that all 5 pillars of Islam were established by Qusayy many generations before Mo was even born- Making it Pagan. Did you read it?

Old Post 06-01-2004 05:11 AM
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post #17  quote:

I did read it, but I said that that doesnt make sense to me since the pillars deal with monotheism, allah, and mohammed, non existant when qusayy was around.

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devildog
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post #18  quote:

Logan, Qusayy was Pagan all day. He was the first to worship at the Ka'aba. It houses' 360 rock idols! This by no means was unique. There were many similar pagan worship sites around in that time. If the Islamic scripture is even partially accurate, Allah and the Ka?aba predated Muhammad by five generations. Read that again. He didn?t invent them. Nor did he conceive the pagan rituals, fairs, holy months, fasts, prostrations, taxes, and pilgrimages that made these things worth owning. I don't know what else you would need to know.

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post #19  quote:

Well, you may be correct, where can I read about qusayy and Allah, possibly in a journal or book rather than the christian link please.

I am not trying to sound picky but you ask others for proof/sources, and I only ask the same.

Logan.


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devildog
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post #20  quote:

What Christian link have I EVER gave?
In my post, I believe I put the source. I will go back and check. The sources are Tabari, Ishaq, or Bukhari typically. I use NOTHING except Islam's own scriptures, Logan.

Just checked, and like I suspected, all sources are indicated.


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post #21  quote:

No, about Quasayy.

You had posted a link in another thread to a christian site about allah the moon rock, I was wondering about where you know about Qusayy.

Thanks.


Old Post 06-02-2004 04:49 AM
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devildog
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post #22  quote:

You're right. I forgot about that post. I found it credible, so I posted it. I told you several times about the Hadiths. This is where you can read about Qusayy. Every quote I mentioned, I also gave the source. I believe most of them were from Tabari.

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post #23  quote:

I am sorry, there are soo many posts and threads, I cannot keep track of where this is. I am honestly not trying to be a pest.

Thanks for your time, Logan.


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post #24  quote:

Since no one else seems to be in here, I will put it here.

Mom told her son: ??Wait for a sacred month and go with the pilgrimage.? Qusayy waited until the sacred month arrived and the pilgrims set out. When he reached Mecca and had completed the pilgrimage, he remained there.? One of the five pillars of Islam is to complete: the hajj pilgrimage to Mecca in the sacred month. This Hadith proves that the rite was idolatrous five generations before Muhammad said it was Islamic. Even Muhammad?s names for the pilgrimages, ?hajj and umrah,? were borrowed from his pagan past.


Tabari VI:20 ?He( Qusayy ) called upon his fellow tribesmen, the Quraysh, to expel the Khuza?a and seize Mecca for themselves. They accepted his proposal and swore an oath of allegiance to him.? Muhammad would do precisely the same thing. He called upon his raiders to conquer the Quraysh and seized control of the town. They accepted his proposal and swore oaths of allegiance to him. Qusayy?s oath was a call to arms. And as with Muhammad, the Meccans were the enemy, and the target was the Ka?aba.

Tabari, relying on Traditions collected by Ishaq( double check this info here Logan) , reports: ?The Arabs, recognizing their religious duty, accompanied Qusayy. Marching to the Ka?aba they said, ?We have better right to this than you.? At that they opposed one another and began to fight. A fierce battle broke out, as a result of which?Qusayy wrested from them the privileges which had been in their hands, thus denying them.?

I feel obliged to share the alternate ?peaceful? version: Tabari VI:21 ?Qusayy purchased the custodianship of the Ka?aba for a skin full of wine and a lute.? While this variant earns kudos for nonviolence, it?s hardly religious. Purchasing the shrine that stands at the center of Islamic life, their god?s house, for things their religion outlaws?music and booze?is laughably ironic. It?s also an example of conflicting ?truths.?

Having taken what didn?t belong to him, Islam?s founder, the patriarch Qusayy, was now in business, the only viable business in the fledgling burg of Mecca. The largest structure in town, the meeting hall, served as his home and seat of power as it would for Muhammad. Qusayy connected it to the source of wealth, the Ka?aba. He established regular prostration prayer services at the mosque and a plethora of religious rituals. The most disturbing, and enduring, was a butt up sort of thing whereby the moon god was mooned.

The Hadith explains how Islamic ritual was actually established five generations before the Qur?an or Muhammad: Ishaq:49 ?The pilgrims gathered in Mecca, went out to the mawqif, completed the hajj and went to Mina?. Nothing now remained of the ritual of the pilgrimage but the ceremony of dispersal from Mina.? The mawqif is the plain of Arafat, about ten miles east of Mecca. Standing there between midday and sunset is an important part of the Islamic hajj. This is followed by the ifadah, or dispersal.

?On the day of the dispersal they went to stone the jimar, and a man of the Sufah used to throw pebbles for the pilgrims, none throwing until he had thrown.? This idolatrous rite would also have Islamic overtones. Muhammad, borrowing from his pagan past, instructed Muslims to observe the jimar. Pebbles are thrown at three erections or heaps of stones. They are held to represent the Devil.

Here's another Qusayy invention that Muhammad copied. Tabari VI:31 ?Qusayy instituted the lighting of the fire at al-Muzdalifah when the wuquf took place so that those being driven away from Arafat could see it. This fire continued to be lit in this place throughout the Jahiliyyah. This fire was also lit in the time of the Messenger, and of Abu Bakr, Umar, and Uthman.? Al-Muzdalifah is between Arafat and Mina. Standing there is one of the Islamic hajj rites, as is the fire. Bakr, Umar, and Uthman are the first three Islamic Caliphs after Muhammad.
Qusayy?s ability to get the Meccans to perform these pagan rites served Muhammad magnificently. By the prophet?s day they were all so ingrained among the Quraysh that the Qur?an simply assumed the continuance of the idolatrous ways without ever mentioning them. They became part of Islamic dogma by way of Hadith such as these.

Tabari VI:25 ?Qusayy?s tribe held him in honor and high esteem. No one opposed his rule in any way.? ?His commands were never disobeyed and nothing he did was opposed.? ?As regards the hajj, he confirmed the right of the Arabs to continue their previous customs. This is because he considered these to be a religious duty which he should not change.? Qusayy established the cornerstone of Islamic rule: ?submit and obey.? Devotion is a duty, prayer is an obligation, and rituals are compulsory. Islam is devoid of choice.

Moving from entrepreneur to capitalist, our model opportunist soon found himself promoting a series of economic fairs around the holy months. As godfather, he took a cut on each deal. Ishaq:55 ?The rifada was a tax which the Quraysh paid from their property to Qusayy at every festival.? It, like the Ka?aba concession, was an exclusive franchise, a cartel of sorts. Muhammad would rename the tax the zakat, but it was no different. Islam had its fourth pillar.

Dividing the spoils inequitably between his sons, Qusayy said: Ishaq:55 ?Abd al-Dar, by Allah, I shall make you the equal of the others, even though they have been raised in dignity over you. No man of them shall enter the Ka?aba until you have opened it, no [war] banner shall be tied for the Quraysh to go to battle except by your hand, no man shall drink water in Mecca [from the well of Zamzam] except that which you have provided, no man shall eat food in the pilgrimage season other than your food, and the Quraysh shall not decide their affairs anywhere but in your house.? In other words, he gave him the family business?Islam. And he swore by the ultimate Islamic god. Allah has emerged and the Five Pillars are now complete. Muhammad would later come to call himself the Messenger of Allah, and he would usurp his authority to resolve a similar family dispute. Initially, these rights and privileges passed him by, going instead to another heir. Jealous, Muhammad said that Allah told him that they were really his.

This incriminating Hadith continues to expose Islam?s pagan roots. Every last detail was incorporated into Islam. Tabari VI:25 ?Then he gave Abd al-Dar the house in which the Quraysh always made their decisions, and gave him the office of being Ka?aba?s custodian, declaring war, presiding over the assembly, and collecting the rifadah, a tax levied in every pilgrimage season by the Quraysh according to their wealth and handed over to Qusayy. It was imposed on the Quraysh by Qusayy, who said to them when he commanded them to pay it, ?Quraysh, you are neighbors of Allah, people of his Ka?aba and people of the sacred precincts of the Haram. The pilgrims are guests of Allah and visitors to His House. They did so, and every year they levied a tax on their property and paid it to Qusayy and he would use it for the pilgrims during the days of Mina. This institution of his became the state of affairs among the Quraysh during the whole of the Jahiliyyah [pre-Islamic period of Ignorance] up to the time Allah brought Islam, and then became a part of Islam, continuing to this day.?

Ishaq:57 ?Allah?s Apostle said, ?Whatever deal there was in the days of ignorance Islam strengthens it.??

Put a fork in it . Islam has cooked its own goose. The last of the Islamic pillars has been established and we are still scores of years from the first Qur?anic revelation. The religious scam has been established right down to the smallest detail, and they even admit it. All Muhammad had to do was steal it.

The Qusayy model had a single prophet. His god was now Allah. This was a match for Islam?s first pillar. The prostration prayer was an obligatory duty and it was performed facing his Ka?aba?the second pillar. The religious tax, or zakat, was instituted and collected in Allah?s name?the third pillar. The hajj pilgrimage was laid out and observed in all its ritualistic detail?the fourth pillar. And en route to Mecca, Qusayy observed the holy month of Ramadhan and Tahannuth fasting?the fifth pillar.

How clear is this Logan??
Now do you see how important it is to reorder it in the order revealed?


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raven200
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post #25  quote:

This is the actual fact of that time --- this information is from an islamic website and is the actual source from TABARI OR ISHAQ, that devil dog presents to all.
No where does it talk about a mosque as this is the name muslims gave to thier place of worship and I have already said Qusayy was not muslim. This information is our historical facts about Guarding the Ka`bah, Watering and Feeding the Pilgrims, even before Islam came about ---- It is a known fact that the ka'ba has been a sacred place before Islam. I have discussed much of it's importance in the thread "Jesus in india", even explaining about the black stone in the corner wall of the Ka'ba, thier no talk of Hajj either in this actual abstract,
Things such as these have been added on by people like Devildog who continue to fabricate information.
Logan if you go into the world religions thread, you can see how devildog has been caught thier changing text and adding his own extra information, and yet he still persists in lying.

All people of Makkah in general and chieftains of Quraish in particular have realized their duties towards the Ka`bah and its pilgrims. They thought they were invested with the rights of sacredness and choice over all the Arabs because they were chosen by God to be the neighbors of the Sacred House. They also considered themselves the people of the House and its guardians as well as they knew the importance of their land and what Allah has bestowed upon them of His Honor and Sacredness. Thereby, they co-operated to shoulder their responsibilities towards the pilgrims regarding them as guests of Allah?s House in their land.

At that time, there were fifteen outstanding posts in (the tribe of) Quraish which they distributed among its clans to guarantee balance and peace and to prevent struggle and competition amongst them over these posts. Also, they aimed to secure the necessary peace and tranquility to encourage pilgrims and traders to come to Makkah every year. The most honorable of these posts were guarding the House, watering and feeding the pilgrims.

As for the post of guarding the House, its holder guards, maintains, retains the Ka`bah?s keys, opens its door for people and closes it. This is absolutely the most unparalleled post. The second post is the right of watering the pilgrims. This task was not an easy one because of the scarcity of water in Makkah. The one who assumes this right used to establish cisterns of leather in the precinct of the Sanctuary to which he transfers fresh water from the wells around Makkah on camels. The right of watering the pilgrims was invested with Banu Hashim Ibn `Abd Manaf. The third post is the right of feeding (i.e. levying a tax to provide for the pilgrims). The one invested with this right used to levy a tax from notables of Quraish every year to provide food for those of the pilgrims who were too poor to provide for themselves regarding them as guests of the Ka`bah. Qusayy Ibn Kilab was the first to assume this right. Then it moved to Banu Nawfal, then to Banu Hashim. Maintenance of the Sacred House is also amongst the highest posts which are connected to the Ka`bah. It means not to let any obscenity, or wickedness, or wrangling in the Sanctuary.

Quraish spared no effort to encourage pilgrims from all over the world to come to Makkah. They used to stand on the side of the oppressed and to deal justly with people. For the furtherance of justice and the protection of the weak, they had signed a pact of chivalry that henceforth, at every act of oppression in Makkah, they stand together as one man on the side of the oppressed against the oppressor until justice is done, whether the oppressed was a man of Quraish or one who had come from abroad.

Qusayy Ibn Kilab, the founder of Quraish, assumed the right of levying a tax from its notables to provide for the pilgrims. His posterity inherited this right after his death. So it became a hereditary tradition. Ibn Hisham defined the right of levying a tax to provide for the pilgrims saying that they paid Qusayy Ibn Kilab a tax every year on their flocks, so that he might feed those of the pilgrims who were too poor to provide for themselves. When Qusayy firstly imposed this tax on Quraish, he said, ?O men of Quraish, you are God?s neighbors, the people of His House and the people of the Sanctuary; and at this feast come to you God?s visitors, the pilgrims to His House. They are God?s guests, and no guests have such claim on your generosity as His guests. So, provide them with food and drink in seasons of Hajj so that they may talk of your generosity.? They voluntarily agreed to pay him a tax every year from their properties to provide food for the pilgrims.

Qusayy ruled over them all as king, with undisputed power. He assumed the posts of guarding the House, watering the pilgrims, providing for the pilgrims, he also lead the House of the Assembly and the ensign of war. Qusayy Ibn Kilab ordered people of Quraish to build their houses near the Ka`bah and to leave enough space for circumambulation around the Ka`bah.

Three children were born to Qusayy; they are `Abd Ad-Dar, `Abd Manaf and `Abd Al-`Uzza. `Abd Ad-Dar was his eldest son, but `Abd Manaf was the most honored and the highly respected in his people. Qusayy preferred his first-born, `Abd Ad-Dar, and shortly before his death he said to him, ?My son, none shall enter the Ka`bah except that you open it for him, and no hand but thine shall knot for Quraish their ensign of war, nor shall any pilgrim draw water for drink in Makkah except it be of thy providing, nor shall Quraish resolve upon any matter except it be in thy house.?

After the death of Qusayy, `Abd Ad-Dar and then his posterity assumed all these posts. But very soon, sons of `Abd Manaf Ibn Qusayy, `Abd Shams, Hashim, Al-Muttalib and Nawfal, disputed with sons of `Abd Ad-Dar regarding these rights and demanded that they should be transferred to their clans. This dispute divided clans of Quraish and they were about to go to war when a compromise was suggested, and it was agreed that the sons of `Abd Manaf Ibn Qusayy should have the rights of levying the tax and providing the pilgrims with food and drink, whereas the sons of `Abd Ad-Dar Ibn Qusayy should retain the keys of the Ka`bah, the ensign of war and their other rights, and that their house should continue to be the House of the Assembly.

Hashim?s brothers agreed that he should have the responsibility of levying the tax and providing for the pilgrims. Once Quraish passed through a period of drought from which they suffered much. Thereby, Hashim traveled to Palestine and bought a large amount of flour and then came back instantly to Makkah to make bread from this flour and then he smashed this bread to be offered to his people. That was why they called him Hashim instead of his original name `Amr. He then slaughtered animals and offered them to his people. Hashim was held in much honor throughout the Arabian Peninsula.

Hashim?s younger brother Al-Muttalib took over the rights of watering the pilgrims and of providing for them after Hashim?s death. When `Abd Al-Muttalib grew old, he was involved in disputes over his father?s posts: but with the help of his maternal uncles from Banu An-Najjar, `Abd Al-Muttalib was able to restore his father?s posts. Ibn Hisham mentioned the outstanding position of `Abd Al-Muttalib saying, ?`Abd Al-Muttalib took over the rights of feeding and watering the pilgrims and levying the tax to provide for them after his uncle?s death. It was even said that he surpassed his forefathers in the fulfillment of this task. He became the most outstanding among his people and he was held in much respect and honor.

`Abd Al-Muttalib shouldered the heavy responsibility of feeding and watering the pilgrims. He suffered much in providing the necessary amounts of water for the pilgrims and the newcomers to Makkah; especially that Makkah passed by a long period of drought during which there was scarcity of rains and the wells around Makkah were about to dry up while they were near the season of Hajj. One night, `Abd Al-Muttalib saw a vision that led him to discover the old place of the Well of Zamzam. `Abd Al-Muttalib along with his son Al-Harith came out to the place where he knew that he must dig. They succeeded in their endeavor and water gushed forth from this Sacred Well to provide water generously for the pilgrims and the people of Makkah.

While digging the Well of Zamzam, `Abd Al-Muttalib found a treasure for Maddad Al-Jurhumi who had previously buried it in this well and filled it up (with earth) when he had been forced to leave Makkah and so that his enemies shall not find it. Also, he was unable to carry this treasure with him to his exile. With the passing of years, this treasure was hidden under heaped up sands. People of Quraish disputed with `Abd Al-Muttalib regarding this treasure and claimed the right to a share in it. `Abd Al-Muttalib agreed that lots should be cast to put an end to this dispute.

The treasure included two pieces of gold in the shape of gazelles, swords and coats of mail. The process of divining arrows resulted in that the two pieces of gold went to the Ka`bah, whereas the swords and the coats of mail went to `Abd Al-Muttalib who made of these swords a door to the Ka`bah and then hanged the two gold pieces over this door.

After the discovery of the Well of Zamzam, `Abd Al-Muttalib had become transferring water from it to the nearby cisterns surrounding the Ka`bah. He used to desalinate this water with dried dates and raisins since his son Al-`Abbas had gardens of grapes in (the nearby town of) At-Ta?if and he used to provide his father with the necessary needs from raisins.

Up till now, the rights of guarding the House, watering the pilgrims and providing for them are unparalleled honors.


Last edited by raven200 on 06-08-2004 at 07:16 PM |
Old Post 06-08-2004 07:00 PM
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TWBR
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post #26  quote:

You see.....DevilDog is very confused, he believes that because Arab pagans, Arab idol worshipers, and other non-Islamic Arabs used the word "Allah" ( which means God )before Islam, it means that the Muslims who also use the word "Allah" are praying to the "Allah" who the Pagans, Idol Worshipers, and non-islamic Arabs worshiped.

Also, Arab Christians use the word "Allah" because the word "Allah" means God in arabic.


Old Post 06-08-2004 07:12 PM
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raven200
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post #27  quote:

Allah: Allah is the proper name in Arabic for The One and Only God, The Creator and Sustainer of the universe. It is used by the Arab Christians and Jews for the God (Eloh-im in Hebrew; 'Allaha' in Aramaic, the mother tongue of Jesus). The word Allah does not have a plural or gender. Allah does not have any associate or partner, and He does not beget nor was He begotten. SWT is an abbreviation of Arabic words that mean 'Glory Be To Him.'

Old Post 06-08-2004 08:08 PM
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devildog
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post #28  quote:

quote:
raven200 said this in post #25 :
This is the actual fact of that time --- this information is from an islamic website and is the actual source from TABARI OR ISHAQ, that devil dog presents to all.
No where does it talk about a mosque as this is the name muslims gave to thier place of worship and I have already said Qusayy was not muslim. This information is our historical facts about Guarding the Ka`bah, Watering and Feeding the Pilgrims, even before Islam came about ---- It is a known fact that the ka'ba has been a sacred place before Islam. I have discussed much of it's importance in the thread "Jesus in india", even explaining about the black stone in the corner wall of the Ka'ba, thier no talk of Hajj either in this actual abstract,
Things such as these have been added on by people like Devildog who continue to fabricate information.
Logan if you go into the world religions thread, you can see how devildog has been caught thier changing text and adding his own extra information, and yet he still persists in lying.

All people of Makkah in general and chieftains of Quraish in particular have realized their duties towards the Ka`bah and its pilgrims. They thought they were invested with the rights of sacredness and choice over all the Arabs because they were chosen by God to be the neighbors of the Sacred House. They also considered themselves the people of the House and its guardians as well as they knew the importance of their land and what Allah has bestowed upon them of His Honor and Sacredness. Thereby, they co-operated to shoulder their responsibilities towards the pilgrims regarding them as guests of Allah?s House in their land.

At that time, there were fifteen outstanding posts in (the tribe of) Quraish which they distributed among its clans to guarantee balance and peace and to prevent struggle and competition amongst them over these posts. Also, they aimed to secure the necessary peace and tranquility to encourage pilgrims and traders to come to Makkah every year. The most honorable of these posts were guarding the House, watering and feeding the pilgrims.

As for the post of guarding the House, its holder guards, maintains, retains the Ka`bah?s keys, opens its door for people and closes it. This is absolutely the most unparalleled post. The second post is the right of watering the pilgrims. This task was not an easy one because of the scarcity of water in Makkah. The one who assumes this right used to establish cisterns of leather in the precinct of the Sanctuary to which he transfers fresh water from the wells around Makkah on camels. The right of watering the pilgrims was invested with Banu Hashim Ibn `Abd Manaf. The third post is the right of feeding (i.e. levying a tax to provide for the pilgrims). The one invested with this right used to levy a tax from notables of Quraish every year to provide food for those of the pilgrims who were too poor to provide for themselves regarding them as guests of the Ka`bah. Qusayy Ibn Kilab was the first to assume this right. Then it moved to Banu Nawfal, then to Banu Hashim. Maintenance of the Sacred House is also amongst the highest posts which are connected to the Ka`bah. It means not to let any obscenity, or wickedness, or wrangling in the Sanctuary.

Quraish spared no effort to encourage pilgrims from all over the world to come to Makkah. They used to stand on the side of the oppressed and to deal justly with people. For the furtherance of justice and the protection of the weak, they had signed a pact of chivalry that henceforth, at every act of oppression in Makkah, they stand together as one man on the side of the oppressed against the oppressor until justice is done, whether the oppressed was a man of Quraish or one who had come from abroad.

Qusayy Ibn Kilab, the founder of Quraish, assumed the right of levying a tax from its notables to provide for the pilgrims. His posterity inherited this right after his death. So it became a hereditary tradition. Ibn Hisham defined the right of levying a tax to provide for the pilgrims saying that they paid Qusayy Ibn Kilab a tax every year on their flocks, so that he might feed those of the pilgrims who were too poor to provide for themselves. When Qusayy firstly imposed this tax on Quraish, he said, ?O men of Quraish, you are God?s neighbors, the people of His House and the people of the Sanctuary; and at this feast come to you God?s visitors, the pilgrims to His House. They are God?s guests, and no guests have such claim on your generosity as His guests. So, provide them with food and drink in seasons of Hajj so that they may talk of your generosity.? They voluntarily agreed to pay him a tax every year from their properties to provide food for the pilgrims.

Qusayy ruled over them all as king, with undisputed power. He assumed the posts of guarding the House, watering the pilgrims, providing for the pilgrims, he also lead the House of the Assembly and the ensign of war. Qusayy Ibn Kilab ordered people of Quraish to build their houses near the Ka`bah and to leave enough space for circumambulation around the Ka`bah.

Three children were born to Qusayy; they are `Abd Ad-Dar, `Abd Manaf and `Abd Al-`Uzza. `Abd Ad-Dar was his eldest son, but `Abd Manaf was the most honored and the highly respected in his people. Qusayy preferred his first-born, `Abd Ad-Dar, and shortly before his death he said to him, ?My son, none shall enter the Ka`bah except that you open it for him, and no hand but thine shall knot for Quraish their ensign of war, nor shall any pilgrim draw water for drink in Makkah except it be of thy providing, nor shall Quraish resolve upon any matter except it be in thy house.?

After the death of Qusayy, `Abd Ad-Dar and then his posterity assumed all these posts. But very soon, sons of `Abd Manaf Ibn Qusayy, `Abd Shams, Hashim, Al-Muttalib and Nawfal, disputed with sons of `Abd Ad-Dar regarding these rights and demanded that they should be transferred to their clans. This dispute divided clans of Quraish and they were about to go to war when a compromise was suggested, and it was agreed that the sons of `Abd Manaf Ibn Qusayy should have the rights of levying the tax and providing the pilgrims with food and drink, whereas the sons of `Abd Ad-Dar Ibn Qusayy should retain the keys of the Ka`bah, the ensign of war and their other rights, and that their house should continue to be the House of the Assembly.

Hashim?s brothers agreed that he should have the responsibility of levying the tax and providing for the pilgrims. Once Quraish passed through a period of drought from which they suffered much. Thereby, Hashim traveled to Palestine and bought a large amount of flour and then came back instantly to Makkah to make bread from this flour and then he smashed this bread to be offered to his people. That was why they called him Hashim instead of his original name `Amr. He then slaughtered animals and offered them to his people. Hashim was held in much honor throughout the Arabian Peninsula.

Hashim?s younger brother Al-Muttalib took over the rights of watering the pilgrims and of providing for them after Hashim?s death. When `Abd Al-Muttalib grew old, he was involved in disputes over his father?s posts: but with the help of his maternal uncles from Banu An-Najjar, `Abd Al-Muttalib was able to restore his father?s posts. Ibn Hisham mentioned the outstanding position of `Abd Al-Muttalib saying, ?`Abd Al-Muttalib took over the rights of feeding and watering the pilgrims and levying the tax to provide for them after his uncle?s death. It was even said that he surpassed his forefathers in the fulfillment of this task. He became the most outstanding among his people and he was held in much respect and honor.

`Abd Al-Muttalib shouldered the heavy responsibility of feeding and watering the pilgrims. He suffered much in providing the necessary amounts of water for the pilgrims and the newcomers to Makkah; especially that Makkah passed by a long period of drought during which there was scarcity of rains and the wells around Makkah were about to dry up while they were near the season of Hajj. One night, `Abd Al-Muttalib saw a vision that led him to discover the old place of the Well of Zamzam. `Abd Al-Muttalib along with his son Al-Harith came out to the place where he knew that he must dig. They succeeded in their endeavor and water gushed forth from this Sacred Well to provide water generously for the pilgrims and the people of Makkah.

While digging the Well of Zamzam, `Abd Al-Muttalib found a treasure for Maddad Al-Jurhumi who had previously buried it in this well and filled it up (with earth) when he had been forced to leave Makkah and so that his enemies shall not find it. Also, he was unable to carry this treasure with him to his exile. With the passing of years, this treasure was hidden under heaped up sands. People of Quraish disputed with `Abd Al-Muttalib regarding this treasure and claimed the right to a share in it. `Abd Al-Muttalib agreed that lots should be cast to put an end to this dispute.

The treasure included two pieces of gold in the shape of gazelles, swords and coats of mail. The process of divining arrows resulted in that the two pieces of gold went to the Ka`bah, whereas the swords and the coats of mail went to `Abd Al-Muttalib who made of these swords a door to the Ka`bah and then hanged the two gold pieces over this door.

After the discovery of the Well of Zamzam, `Abd Al-Muttalib had become transferring water from it to the nearby cisterns surrounding the Ka`bah. He used to desalinate this water with dried dates and raisins since his son Al-`Abbas had gardens of grapes in (the nearby town of) At-Ta?if and he used to provide his father with the necessary needs from raisins.

Up till now, the rights of guarding the House, watering the pilgrims and providing for them are unparalleled honors.


Hmm I didn't see one source of information contained within the entire post. Did I miss something or is this someones opinion? I think Logan and others can tell the difference. No, I didn't read it. Not interested in opinions. Thanks any way


Old Post 06-08-2004 08:13 PM
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post #29  quote:

quote:
raven200 said this in post #27 :
Allah: Allah is the proper name in Arabic for The One and Only God, The Creator and Sustainer of the universe. It is used by the Arab Christians and Jews for the God (Eloh-im in Hebrew; 'Allaha' in Aramaic, the mother tongue of Jesus). The word Allah does not have a plural or gender. Allah does not have any associate or partner, and He does not beget nor was He begotten. SWT is an abbreviation of Arabic words that mean 'Glory Be To Him.'


It's real simple

The Arabic Qu'ran reads ?La ilaha illAllah.? . With me so far? A word for word translation into English would read: La [no] ilaha [god] ill [except or but] Allah [Allah].

If ?Allah? were the word for god, then the phrase would read, ?there is no allah but allah. Clearly it does not .


Old Post 06-08-2004 08:22 PM
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raven200
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post #30  quote:

Whoever wants a detailed explanation of the History of the ka'ba please read the following link:

http://www.nuradeen.com/Reflections...ageOfIslam2.htm

It has quotes and evidence, moreover you were looking to find out about Qusayy Logan, then have a read of this it will be clearer to you.

ALso Devildog, I have already told you Allah is the name for God. Dude what are you trying to prove -- your so confused.


Old Post 06-08-2004 08:29 PM
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