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Kookaburra
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And what's wrong with Bibles in the schools? post #1  quote:



Amazing... we can't have Bibles in school, but they can have THIS? I hope Christians are getting out of their passive mode and start fighting against things like this. Fight just as hard as those who don't want God in the public!

-----------------------------------------------------
NEWS BRIEFS:
-----------------------------------------------------
Gay-Themed Book for First-Graders Has Parents Seeing Red

A Wilmington, N.C., couple is outraged that their
first-grader was able to check out a storybook from the
school library touting the homosexual lifestyle, Fox
News.com reported.

The book, "King & King," written by Dutch author Linda De
Haan with illustrations by Stern Nijland, is a story about
a prince badgered by his mother -- the queen -- to choose
a mate. He turns down several eligible princesses before meeting -- and choosing -- Prince Lee, the brother of a previous date.

Michael Hartsell told Fox News he and his wife, Tonya,
were "flabbergasted" when they read through the book with
their daughter Olivia. Hartsell said the couple plans to
file a complaint challenging the book's presence on the
library shelves, plans to hold on to the book until they
are sure it won't be circulated to other children and is considering moving their daughter to a different school.

"My child is not old enough to understand something like
that, especially when it is not in our beliefs," Hartsell
said.

A librarian at the Freeman Elementary School in
Wilmington, where the girl is enrolled, was quoted as
saying that the book has actually been on library shelves
since 2002.


Old Post 03-19-2004 01:42 AM
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Anomaly77
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Re: And what's wrong with Bibles in the schools? post #2  quote:

quote:
Kookaburra said this in post #1 :
My child is not old enough to understand something like
that, especially when it is not in our beliefs," Hartsell
said.


Ok. I agree with the above. Parents should be able to determine when their child is old enough to understand certain things...AND, I guess they have the right to pass on their ignorance and prejudices to their children....BUT, they are considering moving her to a new school?! What?! Way to make the experience even more rememberable and confusing for their daughter.

To answer the initial question:
...there is nothing wrong with Bibles in schools if all religious texts were also permitted. I highly doubt that most Christians would be happy about their 6 year old, checking out texts from other faiths...and so, the Bible stays out too.


Old Post 03-19-2004 02:02 AM
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schmiggens
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post #3  quote:

quote:
...there is nothing wrong with Bibles in schools if all religious texts were also permitted. I highly doubt that most Christians would be happy about their 6 year old, checking out texts from other faiths...and so, the Bible stays out too.


Exactly If you want your children to be able to study the Bible then send them to private Christaian school. Jewish people who want their children to be able to study with Judiasm have to send their kids to private Jewish schools. Why should Christianity get different treatment?

quote:
especially when it is not in our beliefs


This also got to me. "It is not in our beliefs" what does that mean exactly? They don't believe in gays? Don't belive that they exist? They don't belive in tollerance and acceptance of gays? Or they don't believe that their child should even know that gays exist?

Gays are here and people need to know about it and learn acceptance. These people are obviously not going to teach their children about gays, so it is up to schools to do it.

I think they picked the stupidest most narrow minded quote from all the parents they interviewed just to help cause a storm about this.


Old Post 03-19-2004 03:01 AM
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Kookaburra
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post #4  quote:

So by your sayings that Christians and Jews should send their children to other schools, then, if parents want their children to learn the gay lifestyle then they should send them to NON-PUBLIC schools. That kind of lifestyle does NOT belong in a public school, where I PAY TAXES TO!

Old Post 03-19-2004 03:16 AM
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Kookaburra
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post #5  quote:

quote:
schmiggens said this in post #3 :


Gays are here and people need to know about it and learn acceptance. These people are obviously not going to teach their children about gays, so it is up to schools to do it.


Excuse me, but what dictatorship country did you just return from that says we have to accept anything we don't believe in?

Perhaps gays are here, but if it is against our belief, we do not, and will not have to accept anything.

The Bible is also here, and should we say gays should just accept it? No, they can accept or reject whatever they want to, and so can we.

My point was that if the Bible has to be removed from the public schools, then so should every other material that is offensive to others. The public school system cannot pick and choose which material they will allow and reject based on what's popular and what's not. To stock a gay lifestyle book on the public school shelves is actually endorsing the book for children. Who are they to say gay books are ok, but religious books are not?

That should also be left up to the parents, since it is their children attending the schools. And it's their money (and mine) supporting the public schools. Since I do not have a choice where my taxes go, this means my taxes are supporting propaganda I don't agree with.


Old Post 03-19-2004 03:23 AM
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Kookaburra
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post #6  quote:

Also, you aren't separating a behavior from a person. You say we are not able to accept gays, but it is not the person we don't accept. It's the homosexual lifestyle. I don't believe the parents are trying to teach their child to reject gays, but rather to teach the child what kind of lifestyle they believe in. There is nothing wrong with bringing up a child in the way you want them to go.

Oh wow.. that was already said in Proverbs. Hmmm.. imagine that.


Old Post 03-19-2004 03:26 AM
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Anomaly77
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post #7  quote:

Send them...to a Gay Private School?
Schmiggens, do they have gay private schools in Australia?

Kookabbura: Did it even occur to you that also in those public schools their might be children with gay parents or relatives? I agree that six year olds are perhaps too young to understand such things. I might not be opposed to restricting such books from elementary schools. But, if children go to public schools, they will eventualy be exposed to many different types of people from different families or backgrounds.

I'm sorry but, you really opened a can of worms with your initial question, to which I have already provided an obvious answer.


Old Post 03-19-2004 03:40 AM
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Anomaly77
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post #8  quote:

quote:
My point was that if the Bible has to be removed from the public schools, then so should every other material that is offensive to others.


I found trigonometry offensive....


Old Post 03-19-2004 03:44 AM
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schmiggens
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post #9  quote:

I am not saying there should be gay schools and straight schools. I am not saying public schools should become a haven for gays and I am not saying that private schools should be only for religious studies and straight people. But as your disagreement of the gay book stems from your religion and your belief that the Bible that should be taught in schools, then they can be tied together.

Think back to when left handed people were considered abnormal and heathen, a book educating people (children) that left handed people were "normal" would have been considered (by people like you) to be offensive and derogatory towards right handed people who had the moral high ground. This is similar in many ways.

I took the couple's quote about them not believing in gayness to mean that they would not teach their child tolerance towards gay people. If parents of any religious persuasion have that attitude then it is wrong and the schools should step in and teach them that gay people are ok.

If you, as a teacher, knew of parents teaching their child that all sex (not just gay sex) was a sin and was dirty and would send them to hell you would take it upon yourself to try and teach them that sex is natural and loving and a part of life. Why should it be any different fro gay sex? Some people take the Bible to extremes to say that no one should have sex ever, unless the lights are out and you?re all fully clothed (just an example) you are taking it to your own extreme to say that gay sex is dirty and will send you to hell.

That is just your opinion on the Bible, others have different opinions on what the Bibles say towards gays.

I support the parents having a say in what their children are taught. But if you want religion in your kids education send them to private school.

quote:
My point was that if the Bible has to be removed from the public schools, then so should every other material that is offensive to others.


So do you agree with the school that has removed every text referring to Charles Darwin's theory of evolution from it's shelves because Christians don't believe in evolution? That is ridiculous, to teach children that natural selection and evolution don't exist.

quote:
Since I do not have a choice where my taxes go, this means my taxes are supporting propaganda I don't agree with.


Gay parents also can't choose where there taxes go. Why should they pay taxes towards a school which "doesn't believe" in them?

quote:
Also, you aren't separating a behavior from a person. You say we are not able to accept gays, but it is not the person we don't accept. It's the homosexual lifestyle.


You can't sperate the person from the action, a gay person is a gay person. Full stop. You either accept them for who they are and that includes them being gay, or you don't.


Old Post 03-19-2004 06:29 AM
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chelktty
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post #10  quote:

Anomoly, excellent points!

I don't see any problem with the bible being available to students in the school's public library. I think that the bible, along with the Koran and other books of God can be used as a point of reference and learning tools about not only the history of man, but their nature as well.


Old Post 03-19-2004 06:31 AM
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schmiggens
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post #11  quote:

quote:
Anomaly77 said this in post #7 :
Schmiggens, do they have gay private schools in Australia?


No we don't have gay schools here. There is at least one somewhere in America though.

quote:
I might not be opposed to restricting such books from elementary schools. But, if children go to public schools, they will eventualy be exposed to many different types of people from different families or backgrounds.


I agree with the fact that these kids are maybe too young to learn these things, but eventually they will have to learn about it.

quote:
Anomaly77 said this in post #8 :I found trigonometry offensive....


me too.


Old Post 03-19-2004 06:33 AM
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post #12  quote:

I think this whole thread is irrelevent, because you are allowed to have Bible's in school.....

Old Post 03-19-2004 08:25 AM
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schmiggens
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post #13  quote:

True.

I thought they had made it part of the curriculum, but now I re-read it I see that the kid only checked it out of the library. That's fair enough, you should be able to get anything you want out of the library. Gay books and Bible's.

If those parents didn't want their kid picking her own books, they should have gone with her to the library.


Old Post 03-19-2004 08:36 AM
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Kookaburra
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post #14  quote:

quote:
Anomaly77 said this in post #7 :
Send them...to a Gay Private School?
Schmiggens, do they have gay private schools in Australia?

Kookabbura: Did it even occur to you that also in those public schools their might be children with gay parents or relatives? I agree that six year olds are perhaps too young to understand such things. I might not be opposed to restricting such books from elementary schools. But, if children go to public schools, they will eventualy be exposed to many different types of people from different families or backgrounds.

I'm sorry but, you really opened a can of worms with your initial question, to which I have already provided an obvious answer.


There is a major difference between being exposed to it, and being TAUGHT by the schools. I find if offensive that a public school would even have such a book. I also find it offensive that colleges have actual classes on Harry Potter.

I understand people have the right to choose whatever they want to choose in life, but I DO NOT HAVE A CHOICE where my taxes are spent. Therefore, as long as my county requires a portion of my taxes to be sent to fund the public school system, I will object to anything in the school I find offensive.

Now, if my county wants to stop forcing its citizens to pay school taxes, especially when they don't have children, then I will stop complaining what types of books they put in the school. Until then, I will fight to get the books removed from the schools where my taxes are sent to support.


Old Post 03-19-2004 02:34 PM
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Kookaburra
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post #15  quote:

quote:
schmiggens said this in post #11 :
I agree with the fact that these kids are maybe too young to learn these things, but eventually they will have to learn about it.


When you say they will eventually have to learn about it, do you mean just learn about the fact that gays exist and be accepting of them as a person, like we would teach our children about the different races, and we would teach them about the different physical limitations of some people;

or do you mean be taught about the lifestyle and be accepting of the lifestyle?

My response to your post is going to depend on your answer.


Old Post 03-19-2004 02:37 PM
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post #16  quote:

quote:
schmiggens said this in post #13 :
True.

I thought they had made it part of the curriculum, but now I re-read it I see that the kid only checked it out of the library. That's fair enough, you should be able to get anything you want out of the library. Gay books and Bible's.

If those parents didn't want their kid picking her own books, they should have gone with her to the library.


We are talking about an elementry library here, not a public library. The parents send their kids to school under the pretense that school administrators are not going to force children to be tolerant of things against one's belief.

Example: If a devote Amish child is sent to a public school, should the administrators of that school put the child in a driver's education class and let them drive a car?

If a parent sets up restrictions for their child, then the school should be responsible in making sure they teach the basics of education, and get written permission from parents to teach anything extra. Not all parents can afford to send their children to private schools, and they are forced (YES FORCED) to send their kids to public schools. I say forced, because if you hold your child out of school, and not home school them, you get in a lot of trouble with protective services and the law.

I can understand parents not wanting a child to check out a Bible also. It's a matter of what a person believes in.


Old Post 03-19-2004 02:43 PM
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post #17  quote:

I think I have a solution for the case of teaching children from families with different religious or cultural beliefs.

1. Any school, public or private, should receive money from a government in an amount calculated on basis of number of pupils there.

2. A minimum curricullum, approved by the government should be taught there.

3. A common moral (including tolerance principles) should be taught in any school. The ideas of certain faith, etc. contradicting with the common moral should be banned in any school.

4. Other subjects may taught in a particular school may be chosen according what the parents and/or teachers want to see. A fee may be charged for those subjects.

So we have these pluses:

+ children are taught the set of subjects which minimally contradicts with the moral principles of the parents,

+ fair treatment of people whose children taught in private schools (now they pay taxes but don't receive the education as a public service),

+ schools get an additional source of profit.


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post #18  quote:

quote:
4. Other subjects may taught in a particular school may be chosen according what the parents and/or teachers want to see. A fee may be charged for those subjects.


**** that one


Old Post 03-19-2004 05:53 PM
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Marlene Newell
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post #19  quote:

quote:
chelktty said this in post #10 :
Anomoly, excellent points!

I don't see any problem with the bible being available to students in the school's public library. I think that the bible, along with the Koran and other books of God can be used as a point of reference and learning tools about not only the history of man, but their nature as well.


I think religion should be taught in the schools. All of the religions. Religion is part of culture, and with the world becoming smaller and smaller, we need to know and understand other cultures, and we can't understand those cultures if we do not know what their religions are.

People of all religions need to get over the fear that if their children are exposed to other religions, they will abandon their own. The more our children understand about the world, the better prepared they are to deal with it.

As far as a young child being able to check a book out of the library on gay relationships, I've seen some of those children's books. IMO, they serve a vital function in our society to gradually introduce children to a stark reality -- many people do not behave according to the child's belief system. Many people judge behavior different from the way their parents do.

When the parents read the book with the child, they could have BOTH encouraged tolerance for those who choose to live differently AND sustained their child's belief in a different moral system.

Checking out that book, IMO, gave those parents the most excellent opportunity EVER to influence what their child learned about a cultural reality. IMO, that particular set of parents blew it.


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post #20  quote:

cuz we all know how reading gay books makes you gay...

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post #21  quote:

If that were the case, there would be a lot more gay people in this world.

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post #22  quote:

Marlene, can I just say that your post was a well thought out, informative post.

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post #23  quote:

quote:
Dekka00 said this in post #20 :
cuz we all know how reading gay books makes you gay...


Reading the bible makes some people religious. Advertising can make people join the army and kill people. Luckily gayness is a totally different sort of information that has no effect on people at all.

Acceptence can be taught more effectively without first catagorising groups of people.

Maybe what we first need are books about fat, ugly and deformed people then there would be no bullying in schools.

kula


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post #24  quote:

Great point, kula...

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post #25  quote:

its sorta odd when you think about it. since christianity was basically the only thing being taught in america, instead starting to teach about other religions as well, they started banning christianity. sorta reverse of whats goin on in the civil rights...hmmm

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Anomaly77
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post #26  quote:

Personally, the answer to this religion in schools question, seems so simple to me that I don't understand the problem.

Why can't religion classes be electives or after-school programs? Parents get copies of their child's schedule (or at least they could). There could be a "World Religions" class for those who would appreciate the diversity of different viewpoints, beliefs, and cultures. Then there could be more specific faith based classes or after-school programs. And of coarse, the option would remain to not take any such classes if the parents preferred.

If I can elect to take such courses in college (which was a state school) I don't see why this is such an issue in grade schools, providing that the parents were given the choice and/or the courses were electives and not requirements.


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chelktty
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post #27  quote:

quote:
kula said this in post #23 :


Reading the bible makes some people religious. Advertising can make people join the army and kill people. Luckily gayness is a totally different sort of information that has no effect on people at all.

Acceptence can be taught more effectively without first catagorising groups of people.

Maybe what we first need are books about fat, ugly and deformed people then there would be no bullying in schools.

kula



quote:
Anomaly77 said this in post #26 :
Why can't religion classes be electives or after-school programs? Parents get copies of their child's schedule (or at least they could). There could be a "World Religions" class for those who would appreciate the diversity of different viewpoints, beliefs, and cultures. Then there could be more specific faith based classes or after-school programs. And of coarse, the option would remain to not take any such classes if the parents preferred.


I couldn't agree more with both of you!


Old Post 03-20-2004 01:35 AM
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post #28  quote:

quote:
Marlene Newell said this in post #19 :


I think religion should be taught in the schools. All of the religions. Religion is part of culture, and with the world becoming smaller and smaller, we need to know and understand other cultures, and we can't understand those cultures if we do not know what their religions are.

People of all religions need to get over the fear that if their children are exposed to other religions, they will abandon their own. The more our children understand about the world, the better prepared they are to deal with it.

As far as a young child being able to check a book out of the library on gay relationships, I've seen some of those children's books. IMO, they serve a vital function in our society to gradually introduce children to a stark reality -- many people do not behave according to the child's belief system. Many people judge behavior different from the way their parents do.

When the parents read the book with the child, they could have BOTH encouraged tolerance for those who choose to live differently AND sustained their child's belief in a different moral system.

Checking out that book, IMO, gave those parents the most excellent opportunity EVER to influence what their child learned about a cultural reality. IMO, that particular set of parents blew it.


If we teach about all the religions then what other classes get cut to make time for this. I see the classes studied in school for 1st grader:

A major focus in first grade is on reading and language arts (writing, spelling, listening, speaking) and math. Most of the day is probably spent on these courses. A bit of science, social studies, health and general safety should also be included.

Religion at this age should be something that the parents should be "teaching" there children not teachers. (who may influence the children towards the religion the teacher follows, even if by accident) Children in 1st grade have enough to keep up with.

If religion is given in school at least let the child and parent be able to make the decision to take the class or not. I would say no earlier then highschool also.

Teaching culture encircles every aspect of a community to better understand the people. Teaching religion singles out a single belief of that community, showing only a fraction of the whole story and showing only a fraction of the people.

My belief is Religion should mainly be a family discussion.


Old Post 03-20-2004 04:28 AM
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outsider
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post #29  quote:

Personally I don't believe that PUBLIC schools should be teaching any religion. If you want your child to be taught religion you can either teach them yourselves or send your kid to a private school. The public schools are for everyone. Religion can be taught in a private institution. I know because I went to catholic school for a few years.

I also don't believe that a public school should be censoring their library collection. If they want to carry the bible in that library that is just fine.

I am completely against censorship. An excellent article on censorship is: "How the mind of a censor works:The psychology of censorship" by Sara Fine, School Library Journal, January 1996.

The article cannot be found online, you have to get access to a full text database or go to your local library to read this. I would have posted it if I had found it online.


Old Post 03-20-2004 08:08 AM
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Anomaly77
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post #30  quote:

By my suggestion, I did not mean that public schools should teach religion. I don't think that should be required to, only that I think that it could be done without forcing those who are not interested in such instruction to participate.

I certainly to not support censorship either. However, I think that in regards to elementary schools, the material available should be age-appropriate. I do not necessarily agree that the book in question here, is not appropriate. But, there certainly would be material that would not be for this young age group.


Old Post 03-20-2004 05:25 PM
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