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Real post #1  quote:



Could someone or something switch us off? Could it possibly be true that our world is just a computer program, or a hologram, or a dream? Although it's about the weirdest thing you could think of, there are some tantalizing clues this might indeed be the case. The stuff we call 'reality' may simply not be for real.

Welcome to the outskirts of reality. Welcome to the place where theoretical physics and philosophy meet, and where religion and science loose their meaning. Better fasten your mental seatbelts. What we?re about to tell you is just too weird. Too mind-boggling. And quite disturbing, really.

Here we go: the place we call reality may not be real at all. It may look real, and feel real, and smell real. But if you know where to look, and you look real close, you can see the cracks. Just like a Hollywood actor that suddenly realizes he's not surrounded by real buildings -- but by props made of cardboard paper.

If that sounds like lame science fiction; I agree. Indeed, we?ve all seen The Matrix. And of course, there?s this ancient eastern saying: `Am I a man dreaming to be a butterfly, or am I a butterfly dreaming to be man?? But could such a thing be conceivable? Could it be true? Are we really here? Or are we, as one reader of Exit Mundi suggested, only a computer simulation, run by an alien race? Perhaps the simulation is getting boring, and the guy running the program is about to switch it off. We?d see some kind of huge ?game over?-sign, and that would be it. One moment, we?re here. And the next ? we aren?t.

If you?re easily disturbed, or prone to paranoia, better stop reading now. You may not like the answers to questions like these. What you are about to read may change the way you see things -- forever.

Matter: Chunks Of Music?

First, you should know the stuff our Universe is made of isn?t very real at all. Sure, you can feel the chair underneath you, and see the monitor in front of you. But what we feel and touch and see in everyday life is actually a manifestation of some deeper, completely different kind of reality. Ultimately, matter is much like music. We?ve listened to it for so long now, that we have grown accustomed to the idea that the music is the only thing there is. But would we open our eyes, we would suddenly see the instrument that?s playing the music.

One way to explore what matter is, is by taking it apart. First, you?ll find tiny chunks of matter that are called molecules. Then, if you take the molecules apart, you?ll find the atoms the molecules are made of. And then, if you take apart the atoms, you?ll find a nucleus surrounded by a cloud of electrons. And if you take apart the nucleus? You?ll be in for a big surprise. For inside an atom?s nucleus, reality as we know it actually ceases to exist.

An atom?s nucleus is made of tiny entities we call ?particles?. But ?particles? is not really a good word for all the quarks, muons, protons, neutrons and electrons matter ultimately consists of. When you say ?particles?, you think of little balls. But in quantum physics, there?s no such thing as solid `balls? you can touch or see. In fact, particles are so incredibly different from everything we know of, our language lacks the words to describe them. Particles can be in two places at the same time, and behave both like a wave and a tiny chunk of matter, depending on what you do with them. Particles can pop in and out of existence from nowhere. And ?grabbing? them is impossible: it is simply not possible to both know where a particle is and how fast it moves about.

But still, a particle has to be something, right?

That?s why more and more physicists turn to `string theory?. In string theory, matter is ultimately made of extremely small elastic circles, called strings. These strings vibrate. But not like anything we know: the strings vibrate in at least ten dimensions! Our particles are the vibrations of the strings: they are the music the strings make.

The Dimensions: Up Or Zgvnp?

Okay, hold that thought: matter is ultimately the manifestation of something else.

Gladly, there are also things that are normal. Matter is weird, unreal stuff -- so lets leave it out for a while. What you have left seems normal enough: it?s a thing we call ?room? or ?space?. You can go forward and backwards in it, or up or down, or left and right. No denying that.

Well, I hate to disappoint you, but in physics, it?s all different again. Much to their own surprise, physicists have found that many calculations add up much better when you assume there are more dimensions than three! Try eleven dimensions, and you?ll get the best results. In fact, you cannot explain the stuff you see in certain experiments without assuming there are more than three dimensions.

Again, it is extremely hard for us silly, three-dimensional beings to even imagine what a many-dimension reality really is. For starters, try not to think of dimensions as being some kind of ?place?. Instead, they are better compared with `directions?. Besides going left, right, up, down, backwards and forwards, you might want to go ?brlp? or ?zgvnp? for a change ? whatever you call it. Dimensions are everywhere around us. In fact, they are intimately interwoven in our everyday reality. They are just locked away from our experience.

The implications of this are, of course, staggering. Even physicists don?t fully understand what living in a multidimensional universe really means. But we do know this for sure: we only see a small part of the ?real? reality.

The Universe: Bubbles Of What?

Time to check out exhibit number three: the Universe.

Again, the Universe is something we think we know. It is that big black thing with all the lights in it over your head. Perhaps you?ve even heard it?s expanding: first, there was a kind of blast (called ?Big Bang?), and from that moment on, the Universe grew bigger and bigger.

But hold it right there. Once more, the real story is far stranger than that. For starters, the Universe has no ?outside?. To ask what is ?outside? the Universe is a meaningless question ? it would be like asking what continent lies ?outside? our planet. ?Outside? the Universe there are no dimensions, and there is no time. The Universe is best seen as an expanding bubble of dimensions in a sea of nothingness ? although ?nothing? isn?t really a word you can use to describe what is ?outside? the Universe.

It is extremely difficult to fully comprehend what that means. According to one theory, there are many dimensional bubbles like the one we live in. Our Universe could be the result of two of such bubbles ? or ?planes? ? colliding. And wait, now you?re doing it again: you?re picturing a place with bubbles floating around. But there?s no such thing as a ?place?. Instead, the other Universes should be wrapped up within our own reality, remember?

An even more bizarre theory has it the place we call the Universe is actually best compared with a hologram. Our Universe could be some kind of optical illusion, the result of several dimensions resonating.

Feel dizzy already? Well: the same goes for time. Time is also something we think we understand: yesterday was another time than today. But if you look on a large enough scale, it?s all different. Time is actually the same ?stuff? as space!

That?s easier to understand than it looks. It takes time to go from one place to another. Sure, you could move faster. But there?s a limit to how fast you can move. Nothing, not even a thought or a particle, can move faster than the speed of light ? which is still more than one billion kilometers per hour! But even at light speed, it takes time to go from one place to another. That?s why time and space are basically the same. Space is time, and time is space. No wonder Einstein called it ?space-time?.

And You? How Real Is Your Mind?

So, to wrap things up: we live in a place that?s not really a ?place?, we?re made of stuff that?s not really ?stuff? and what we see is only a small part of what?s really there. Matter, time, dimensions, the Universe ? it?s all lucid, unreal. We live in a kind of bubble that?s not really a bubble, and we?re surrounded by tiny, resonating strings that play a kind of multidimensional music we call ?matter?. Pretty confusing, don't you think?

Gladly, you can cling to this one security: that you are here. No matter how weird the stuff around you is, you are definitely for real. No need to explain: you just know you are.

But do you really?

Let?s do an experiment. Speak out your name over and over and over and over again. After a while, you?ll notice something weird. Your name will begin to sound strange. It?s no longer something that is you ? your name is just a word, a random sequence of syllables and sounds that other people utter when they want to catch your attention. If your parents had given you another name, you would listen to another sequence of sounds.

The same happens when you look in the mirror. Stare at your own face long enough, and you?ll suddenly realize it?s just another face. The face in the mirror is, of course, yours. But after a while, it won?t feel like that anymore. The face you see could be anybody's.

Most neuroscientists agree the same applies for your consciousness. The thing you call your ?self? is most likely an illusion, created by your brain. Your brain gives you vision, sound, speech, feelings, and thoughts. When you add all these things up, you?ll have some overall feeling of awareness you call your consciousness. But still, your brain is the thing running it. Your feeling of ?self? is best compared to a software program running. It looks very real ? but it isn?t.

Of course, most people believe there is something like a ?soul? or a ?spirit? living inside of you. But when it comes down to facts, there just isn?t any evidence for that. Every thought you have, every move you make, every emotion you feel - it?s just brain, brain, brain.

There are actually experiments that prove it. When you disturb your brain in a certain way, your feeling of ?self? can get detached from your brain. Suddenly, it will feel as if ?you? are not inside your body anymore. You experience what is known as an ?out of body experience?, or a ?near death experience?. But you don?t have to be nearly dead to feel it. The sensation can easily be created in a laboratory, by placing a helmet with rotating magnetic fields on your head. The magnetic field acts like a ?jam signal? on your brain. Suddenly, you'll feel like you're floating outside your body. But you aren?t. It?s just your brain going confused.

And you don't really need a helmet to do the trick. Visiting a place where the movement of the Earth's crust generates magnetic fields can give you the experience. Being in a situation where your brain doesn't get enough oxygen sometimes does it. Certain brain operations bring out the experience. Meditation and intensive prayer can generate it.

In fact, exactly this is why some people see ghosts, or Maria, or feel like they are visited by aliens. It is an incredible weird experience to be ?outside of your brain?. Your brain will try to make sense of it. Immediately, the rational part of your brain will come up with an ?explanation? for the experience. You will sense a ?presence? near you. If you?re religious, you might see Maria, or Jesus. If you believe in UFOs, your brain might tell you you?re visited by aliens. If you believe in ghosts, you?ll feel the presence of a ghost of a dead person. But in reality, it?s your own feeling of self you?re experiencing.

So... Are We A Game Of Simms?

So there you are. You?re just a walking piece of matter that?s pretending to be someone. But in reality, things like matter, or self, or the Universe, or time, or dimensions are all illusions. Everything we see and everything we feel are, in fact, the manifestations of some underlying reality.

That leaves you with an unsettling question: what exactly is that reality?

The truth is: we don?t know. Could be almost anything, really. A dream, even. Or a simulation. Or a kind of computer game, an advanced kind of Civilization or Simms. There?s no way of knowing if there?s someone or something pushing the buttons. There?s no way of knowing if there isn?t, either.

And then, there?s this other thing most theorists agree on: our reality could suddenly end. Our universe could fold up. The dimensions we live in could be wrapped up. The very fabric of our physical world could be disrupted by some unprecedented, weird physical event. From one second to the other, our reality would no longer be there. Sounds like fun, right?

But then again, why bother? For that?s the deeper consequence of these things. If there is no such thing as a place we call Earth, we needn?t really worry about its end. Would the characters of a Simms-game feel sad or disappointed when you turned off the computer? Or would the people you dream of at night mind when you woke up? You guessed it: they probably wouldn't. What isn?t really there, doesn?t really end.

That being said, there?s only one small problem. You see: you have to be a good philosopher to really feel it that way!

---
http://www.xs4all.nl/~mke/Dreamsend.htm


Old Post 02-16-2004 11:21 PM
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Kookaburra
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post #2  quote:

Oh good, so reality is: I'm not really seeing this HUGE post you just put here, and therefore, completing the entire thing is not necessary. I stopped after the first few paragraphs. You sound like a Hollywood producer about to release a new show, and you're getting in your sales pitch to entice the audience.

Guess I'll finish reading it later.


Last edited by Kookaburra on 02-17-2004 at 05:05 AM |
Old Post 02-17-2004 01:10 AM
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esskay
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Re: Real post #3  quote:

quote:
Advance said this in post #1 :
That leaves you with an unsettling question: what exactly is that reality?


Personally I'm left with the even more disturbing question of: what exactly is stupidity?

Supidity to me is reflected in the thoughts and consequential actions of an individual who discovers something new & trendy and what makes sense by today's standards and technology and pop-conspiracy crap and conjures up an image that questions the nature of reality.

I'll tell ya what's real, having been proven for milennia: death and taxes.

.. but that's just my opinion!


Old Post 02-17-2004 01:46 AM
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post #4  quote:

at both of your comments. Too funny

Old Post 02-17-2004 02:25 AM
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post #5  quote:

I read the whole thing. I thought it was quite alright.

Old Post 02-17-2004 04:15 AM
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Kookaburra
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post #6  quote:

I don't think anyone is claiming to know the universe. In fact, just the opposite. We can't even keep a robot running on Mars properly, let alone understand the universe.

There are things about it we'll never understand, but it is a very fascinating post.


Old Post 02-17-2004 05:08 AM
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mrsdje
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post #7  quote:

having trouble believing this but i actually found ur post good reading and i find myself agreeing with some of the points made

Old Post 02-22-2004 05:35 PM
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Sayzak
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post #8  quote:

I read the whole thing. I've read all that stuff before, in fact I was really obsessed with it over the last year or so. Strong theory, mutliple universe theories, etc. It drove me nuts and I even started writing a script for a movie about a guy who got obsessed over it and everyone thought he was nuts, but he kind of figured everything out and was able to experience "time" in a non-linear way.

Anyway, I have a comment about the fallowing:

"And then, there?s this other thing most theorists agree on: our reality could suddenly end. Our universe could fold up. The dimensions we live in could be wrapped up. The very fabric of our physical world could be disrupted by some unprecedented, weird physical event. From one second to the other, our reality would no longer be there. Sounds like fun, right?

But then again, why bother? For that?s the deeper consequence of these things. If there is no such thing as a place we call Earth, we needn?t really worry about its end. Would the characters of a Simms-game feel sad or disappointed when you turned off the computer? Or would the people you dream of at night mind when you woke up? You guessed it: they probably wouldn't. What isn?t really there, doesn?t really end."


If our exsistance was all part of a "simm" -if you will... There could very likely be multple dimensions (different saved versions). Further more, if our exsistance was switched off, we'd never even feel it because time only exsists in a game while the game is being played.

I'm not saying I'm a staunch believer in the idea that we're in a "simm" but I wouldn't rule it out. I wouldn't rule anything out.


Old Post 02-22-2004 07:15 PM
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post #9  quote:

as far as I know, between the time I brought my food to my mouth and actually chewed it, the "game" could have been turned off and forgotten about for millions of "years" and then turned back on again.

Old Post 02-22-2004 07:21 PM
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Advance
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post #10  quote:

I love this kind of stuff too sayzak, you have any other articles about it?

Last edited by Advance on 02-22-2004 at 08:24 PM |
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post #11  quote:

No. I had dozens of websights saved to my favorites before my computer crashed. I didn't bother memorizing the names of anything because.. well, I have a horrible memory! On top of that, I really was becomming obsessed for awhile, to the point of experiencing that "out of body" experience all day every day for two months. I got my feet on the ground again now, but man...

Old Post 02-22-2004 07:36 PM
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mrsdje
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post #12  quote:

quote:
Advance said this in post #10 :
I love this kind of stuff too sayzak, you have anyother articles about it?



forgeting 2 use spaces now! are you have the cheek to to tell others to check there posts


Old Post 02-22-2004 08:03 PM
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twisted_wizard
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post #13  quote:

What exactly is reality? No, I wouldn't know. I don't think anyone does for that matter. to comprehend that, would be like an ant inventing the atomic bomb?impossible.
I'm just 14, what do I understand? not much. No.
The way you look at reality is in the scientific realm, the 'bubbles' the outside of boxes, the big bang theories and such. But have you thought of it in a religious sense? Do you know WHY they made religion for that matter? for thousands of years, that human beings have walked the earth... there was ALWAYS cults... religion... and the like. may it be pagan or christianity, they all believed in a superior being. Gods... goddeses.... or they themselves.. there is always something superior... they always believed in something other than raw flesh.
people... use 'cults' as a sort of explaination.
But what if, we change that, and have human beings not use these 'explainations'? They wouold wonder at everything..... and yet beleve in nothing. you know what? I can't put everyhing into words. I'll come back later, rethink.... you know those times where you just have TOO many in your head that you simply can't GET THEM OUT?.... so let's forget what I said for a moment, and let me begin on a new outline.


Old Post 02-23-2004 11:57 PM
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Advance
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post #14  quote:

The best way to look at religon and science is deism. I am not telling you to change your relogious veiws, but it might me a good way to think.

Old Post 02-24-2004 12:19 AM
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twisted_wizard
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post #15  quote:

I used to and STILL love these stuff..... the wonderings of life. my friends think I am "WISE" seriously. that's stupid . I am only wondering, turning the thought in my head till theories after theories just POP into my head.

these are things that I just wondered at. It's not on articles... or books. but my silly wonderings. So, if you feel to debate or elaborate, do so. I welcome it in fact.

the brain controls the body, but what controls the brain? What makes us THINK, DO things that.... that, just... inspires people to create. Why do we look at things and wonder, is there more to this object than really seen? Our brain may just be some big tissue. but have you ever wondered, just once, what makes our brain voluntary? Is it our so-called 'soul'? or these 'particles'?

To combine the religious and scientific realm is just blasphemous (sp?)! everything contridicts itself. We live in a world where science is blooming, where it's everywhere. And to believe in a religion and its' own belief and yet wonder at the scientific FACTS. You begin to get confused. Did the big bang really happen? Are we really a shell in which it occupies the soul? it's like questioning the real inheritence of the Palestines and Israelis?who owns what?
<<thought attached: When I start to fight this debate against myself, I feel as if the answer was just THERE, and yet, you can't reach it...>>

But to get back to the subject, what?or who?!?!?controls our mind? us? what controls the brain? is there any scientific facts on these? or articles?

To see: What is it to really 'see'? Imagine being the eyes only. What do you see? what do you feel? I am just begining this debate against myself. What you see are objects, what you feel..... you feel as if you're in a box, spaced out, contolled by the mind; seperated by all other senses.

What does it mean to 'see'? This depends on the organism doing the seeing and on what is being seen and why. Research starts from the idea that vision is a dynamic process, linking an organism to its environment. start with the basic building blocks of perception: How is texture and form processed, how do we detect motion and depth? Other work considers to what extent this information is used to form a representation of the world, and how the information is acted upon.

*grins* it's quite abit depressing to face fact that there are information that are just out of reach.

I wrote in a journal all about these stuff. But I lost it. and now, my notes are gone, just like that.

evil.


Old Post 02-24-2004 12:23 AM
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post #16  quote:

.

doubled posting. can't delete . *shruggs* not working there.


Old Post 02-24-2004 12:25 AM
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twisted_wizard
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post #17  quote:

quote:
Advance said this in post #14 :
The best way to look at religon and science is deism. I am not telling you to change your relogious veiws, but it might me a good way to think.


I do not mind. I like to wonder. and I am tolerant of all views that are not barbaric... (things that involve human sacrifices and the such...) and although I am Christian, I am not saying that I not going to change my thinking. and I ahve done alot of thinking after the great 'depression'.


Old Post 02-24-2004 12:26 AM
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Advance
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post #18  quote:

*Whispers* Double post there buddy, edit it before anyone notices. *
--
I dont feel like reading that big long post as of now, but when I got some more time, I will check it out


Old Post 02-24-2004 12:28 AM
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twisted_wizard
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post #19  quote:

mmm.... found a site on deism which I think you've already been to.
really.... crazy. you know, "blah".

http://www.deism.com/


Old Post 02-24-2004 01:40 AM
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post #20  quote:

Actually I have not been to any sites about it. I do not follow it as a religion, I just think it is a great way to look at Religion and Science together.

Old Post 02-24-2004 01:46 AM
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twisted_wizard
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post #21  quote:

really? none? there are great things in those sites..... weird. but something that would give you something to put thought to.

Thomas Paine, the father of deism..... well, that's what I think. great mind though.


Old Post 02-24-2004 01:50 AM
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The_Rebel
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post #22  quote:

Ah, you've got to love these philosophical discussions, especially those dealing with the nature of life, existentialism and reality.
However, the stark truth remains that no amount of philosophizing will change the fact that our existence IS real to us, whether perceived, simulated or controlled by some bizarre external force. We'll still need to make a living, pay our taxes, look after our families, and so on. The sun will rise in the morning, and will continue to do so for another billion years or so. Life goes on - even for the deceased, they live on by virtue of their descendants. As Sean aptly put it, death and taxes are real.

A related and arguably more pertinent question is : What is the purpose of our existence? Regardless of whether our reality is 'real' or otherwise, why are we here? Is our existence due to design or pure chance? If it is the former, to what end is our existence meant to achieve, if any?

I believe that such questions are merely hypothetical, and will always remain so. No matter how much research into the hard sciences that we conduct, or how much philosophizing that we engage in, those questions will never truly be answered. And perhaps by extension, the same applies to the question of reality and existence.

But I do think that as long as one reconciles oneself with one's own answers, regardless of whether they're shared by others or otherwise, that's all that truly matters in the end.

The_Rebel


Old Post 02-24-2004 02:23 AM
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twisted_wizard
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post #23  quote:

"What is the purpose of our esistence?" I quoth.

ok. this.the question has been widely asked and answered (thoug vaguely) some believe it is by design, as you say, some say pure chance, again, as you say. This question is old. more than hundreds of years, poets have tried to write about, even Shakespeare had a go at it. Philisophers have debated on this. Einstein has tried to put it into Mathematical sense.... you can't explain WHY we live nor our exsistence.
You may base i purely on the religious sense and think that it's by a design of a supreme being.
or, science, who think our exsistence is fact.

Another question is; what do do you believe in?

design or chance? / religion or science?

?twisted

p.s. you know what? I think I'll start signing my posts....


Old Post 02-24-2004 02:32 AM
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Charash
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post #24  quote:

Nice ideas presented in a new way, yet they are thousands of years old. Man is always searching for the answers he can never find because God made us in His image; ergo, we have as our ultimate goal union with God and understanding of all things and all questions. The fact that you came up with those questions and topics, Advance, proves that He exists. As far and science and religion go, God is the ultimate scientist, for He created science, which simply means knowledge. And anything is possible for "a being, of which none greater can be conceived," to borrow from Nietsche. Even Aristotle deduced of subatomic particles that make up all things--he gave us the word "atom," which meant to him: "uncuttable." God's truth will never be contradicted by scientific truth, just as a circle will never be contradicted by one of the points of space that make up its circumference. As John Paul II eloquently stated: "Truth cannot contradict truth."

What the larger question is, that Advance and others disregard completely, is what is the purpose of life? You deflect it with a lot of pseudo-philosophical musings, but do you even consider this most basic question? I would define the purpose of life very simply as: to come to know and love truth. The ancients, especially my mentor, Socrates--if I may be that bold--defined the purpose of life very simply in the same way. Here is my favorite story that evinces this point clearly. . .

------------------------------

A young boy met Socrates in his village one day and wanted to talk to "the wisest man who ever lived" and ask him a few questions. This boy approached the Gadfly and asked him: "How do I come to have the knowledge and wisdom that you do?" The sage beckoned the boy to follow him into a nearby lake, which the youth did after a brief hesitation. When the lad was up to his waist in the water, Socrates grabbed him and plunged him under the water and held him there for over a minute as the boy struggled to escape his grasp. When Socrates finally let him up for air, the youth indignantly queried: "Why did you do that?"

Socrates calmy asked: "When you were underneath the water, what did you want more than anything in the world?"
The boy answered after pondering the question: "I wanted to breathe."

Socrates then looked the lad in the eye and said: "When you want to possess wisdom and knowledge the same way you wanted to breathe, then you shall have them."

--------------------------------

I think too many of us do not want to truly possess wisdom and truth, because we keep looking in directions away from God--who is truth--and look instead to other answers which obviate our real quests. Just my thoughts after a good 15 years of looking in all those other directions, my compass now points to true North. Until you consider all the possibilities, you will seek the truth in vain. If you are truly seeking truth, you will find it--not with the mind, but with the heart and then the mind will follow.


Old Post 02-24-2004 02:35 AM
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Advance
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post #25  quote:

quote:
The_Rebel said this in post #22 :
Ah, you've got to love these philosophical discussions, especially those dealing with the nature of life, existentialism and reality.
However, the stark truth remains that no amount of philosophizing will change the fact that our existence IS real to us, whether perceived, simulated or controlled by some bizarre external force. We'll still need to make a living, pay our taxes, look after our families, and so on. The sun will rise in the morning, and will continue to do so for another billion years or so. Life goes on - even for the deceased, they live on by virtue of their descendants. As Sean aptly put it, death and taxes are real.

A related and arguably more pertinent question is : What is the purpose of our existence? Regardless of whether our reality is 'real' or otherwise, why are we here? Is our existence due to design or pure chance? If it is the former, to what end is our existence meant to achieve, if any?

I believe that such questions are merely hypothetical, and will always remain so. No matter how much research into the hard sciences that we conduct, or how much philosophizing that we engage in, those questions will never truly be answered. And perhaps by extension, the same applies to the question of reality and existence.

But I do think that as long as one reconciles oneself with one's own answers, regardless of whether they're shared by others or otherwise, that's all that truly matters in the end.

The_Rebel


A+ Post


Old Post 02-24-2004 02:37 AM
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twisted_wizard
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post #26  quote:

quote:
What the larger question is, that Advance and others disregard completely, is what is the purpose of life? You deflect it with a lot of pseudo-philosophical musings, but do you even consider this most basic question? I would define the purpose of life very simply as: to come to know and love truth.


read the post "the world tickles me" ..... somewhere down. it says something about this.....

this question is the same meaning (somewhat) as
, what is the purpose of our exsistence?

quote:
God's truth will never be contradicted by scientific truth, just as a circle will never be contradicted by one of the points of space that make up its circumference.


mmm...... true enough. but there are things that could contridict THAT. because well, there are facts on the internet. but I'm not saying that it's not true. go to google and search "deism" ... I seem to be going thorugh that files lot.


Old Post 02-24-2004 02:43 AM
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post #27  quote:

great, you know what? for the.... let's see.... well, more than 2 dozen times already.... I have jumbled up my thoughts to welcome new ones that will just jumble up the next....

"A Beautiful mind". Watch that yet? beautiful. loved it and have the dvd. Maybe that's what the main character was searching for...? (I forgot the name... geezzzh.)


Old Post 02-24-2004 02:46 AM
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Charash
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post #28  quote:

Isn't is strange (or coincidence--or providence?) that most discussions on these boards tend to end up with a discussion of God's existence? I would of course see it as providence, so my question to others is "what do you see it as?" I love the line in the film The Count of Monte Cristo, when the prisoner tells the priest "I do not believe in God." The priest replies: "That's okay because He believes in you."

How can so many people live in this world today and truly believe there is no God? Where did you come from? Do you believe in the formula of evolution?--"Nothing plus no one times chance=everything." Our minds prove to us that God exists by the very fact that we are asking the question. If we have a created thing, then we must have a creator.

God must really get a chuckle out of reading some of these posts, especially since so many who claim He does not exist can offer nothing to prove it. I forever challenge anyone to prove that God does not exist. The only way to do this is to die and resurrect yourself and come back and tell us--which sounds even more impossible in a sense than the first challenge. Lucifer was the first to try and become God (or a god), but he does not seem to be the last. I wish more people would stop trying to be God and start trying to know him.

Religion, BTW, simply means "to bind oneself back [to God]," and so many today are binding themselves apart from Him. And why?


Old Post 02-24-2004 03:05 AM
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Advance
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post #29  quote:

quote:
Charash said this in post #24 :
What the larger question is, that Advance and others disregard completely, is what is the purpose of life? You deflect it with a lot of pseudo-philosophical musings, but do you even consider this most basic question? I would define the purpose of life very simply as: to come to know and love truth. The ancients, especially my mentor, Socrates--if I may be that bold--defined the purpose of life very simply in the same way. Here is my favorite story that evinces this point clearly. . .



What gave you the slightest thought that in the post, I thought that that was all in the world of Philosophy? I posted an article.


Old Post 02-24-2004 11:23 AM
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The_Rebel
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post #30  quote:

quote:
twisted_wizard said this in post #23 :
"What is the purpose of our esistence?" I quoth.

ok. this.the question has been widely asked and answered (thoug vaguely) some believe it is by design, as you say, some say pure chance, again, as you say. This question is old. more than hundreds of years, poets have tried to write about, even Shakespeare had a go at it. Philisophers have debated on this. Einstein has tried to put it into Mathematical sense.... you can't explain WHY we live nor our exsistence.
You may base i purely on the religious sense and think that it's by a design of a supreme being.
or, science, who think our exsistence is fact.

Another question is; what do do you believe in?

design or chance? / religion or science?

?twisted

p.s. you know what? I think I'll start signing my posts....



Twisted, the fundamental questions posed in this thread regarding the nature of reality and our existence aren't exactly novel either. The ancient Egyptians and Greek philosophers (even those from the pre-Socratic era) pondered over the same questions, more than two thousand years ago.

".... science, who think our existence is fact..."

I was hoping you could elaborate on this statement. Religious doctrines are also based on 'facts', although such facts may be difficult to prove scientifically. Such 'facts' may simply be deeply-held religious beliefs, partly based on myth and partly based on actual events. Although some scientists would dispute those 'facts' as factual, to those who belief in them, they are indisputable. Just because things can't be seen or proven doesn't necessarily mean that they can't be real. Life is full of intangibles, such as love, joy, sadness, hope, beliefs, and so on. To invalidate beliefs is tantamount to invalidating the incomprehensible, of which science abounds.

As a scientist and a devout Christian, I do not see any insurmountable conflicts between the two doctrines. On the contrary, my religious beliefs serve to strengthen my appreciation and admiration of the deeply complex and mysterious nature of our existence. Even a scientist as great as Einstein refused to acknowledge the notion of the non-existence of God, which some scientists seem to accept without question. Many scientists such as myself use him as a role model in reconciling his religious beliefs with his pursuit of scientific knowledge. I seriously think the day mankind extols its own magnificence in understanding everything that the universe has to offer and in obvious arrogance and condescension of those who believe in God is the day that will mark mankind's descent into oblivion.

Science teaches us to have an open mind, and to continually seek out new knowledge in different ways. To discount completely abstract concepts such as religious beliefs on the basis of 'a lack of proof' are inconsistent with true scientific principles. Contemporary theories such as string theories and Einstein's theories of Relativity which have stood the test of time would have been ridiculed even less than a century ago. There is an unfortunate readiness and willingness among the scientific community to reject and belittle things which are not easily comprehensible, and that is a shame. Ironically, some of the theories above have yet to become 'facts' in their own right - otherwise the term 'Laws' would apply to them (eg. Newton's Laws of Gravitation). It's curious that in spite of this, scientists have readily accepted such theories as gospel.

Charash, the questions you asked about 'the purpose of life' were exactly the same questions I posed in my earlier post. I agree with you wholeheartedly that this is the question that matters more than others such as those regarding the essence of our reality. I think we're coming from the same perspective.

The_Rebel


Old Post 02-24-2004 02:58 PM
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