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Sayzak
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Trickle-down economics. post #1  quote:



It looks good. Real good. Bush was right about the economy. He said all along, "The economy is strong. Tax cuts will get it moving again." Looky here, the Dow is nearly at 10,000 again. It jumped higher in the 3rd quarter than it ever did during the Clinton years. The only peices left in this puzzle are jobs. And with a growing economy, you get business's looking to expand. When that happens you get lots and lots of job interviews.

I know most lefties don't agree with trickle down economics. They somehow believe that the money C.E.O.'s of companies receive goes straight into their personal bank, and that denying them a tax cut is "robin hood". I don't see it that way. growing up, I noticed that I got a better allowance when my parents had more money.

I'm curious how anyone could seriousely debate this. How is trickle-down economics wrong? I'd sincerely like to know, because I haven't a clue.


Old Post 11-04-2003 10:09 AM
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Wolf_eyes
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post #2  quote:

Moo.

I'll tell you what I think. Who needs more money--the avearage, working-class american or the CEO of a large corporation? Not only, in my opinion, should they not get a tax cut, they should get tax increases. See me V juko on what is a republican for further information. How can I debate this? simple. It doesn't work. True, in the very last quarter we saw good growth. But even if it continues for the rest of Bush's presidency, he will still have done more damage than good. Joblessness is at a 10 year high. The economy in general is crapping out right now. Oil prices have dramatically risen, despite W's promises of less spending at the gas pump.
Republicans keep telling me the economy is on a cycle, and that Clinton was just lucky to catch the up end up the swing, and W the low end. Ok, im a big believer in all things cyclic....but cmon guys.....awfully convienient that it lasted 8 years for clinton....and stopped almost to the day when georgy took office...

Wrong....hmnnnn.....I do think its wrong, even on a moral level. Normally, I try to stay away from right and wrong in political debate. this, ill bite on. Its wrong to give millionaires more money, when the vast majority of people in the US are struggling just to make ends meet. Class, more later......


Old Post 11-04-2003 01:34 PM
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post #3  quote:

Wolf eyes... You answered every question I asked with out thinking about them. I value your last post as much as a blank peice of paper. Thanks for contributing nothing. Thanks for not even READING my post. Do you know what trickle-down is suggesting? I asked you to tell me why trickle-down economics is wrong. Please answer that question, and if at all possible, provide some evidense, even crappy evidense if you have to.

Last edited by Sayzak on 11-05-2003 at 09:21 AM |
Old Post 11-05-2003 09:18 AM
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post #4  quote:

It astonishes me that you know when I think and do not. Im sorry you dont value my last post, but I tried to give you an honest, open answer to your question, based on my personal beliefs. If thats not what you wanted, perhaps you could rephrase the question? I read your post, otherwise, I would not have responded to it. My evi-dense....is the state of the economy...after reagan, with the first bush, with the second....then compare it to Clintons economy. How's that?

Old Post 11-05-2003 09:03 PM
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post #5  quote:

I said: "I'm curious how anyone could seriousely debate this. How is trickle-down economics wrong? I'd sincerely like to know, because I haven't a clue."

You replied: "How can I debate this? simple. It doesn't work."

I apoligize for being rude. But I was asking a question that you didn't answer. I sincerely want to see the science behind the reasoning for your position. Not just your position over and over again. I don't want to see someone else quoting your position.

Someone explain to me how trickle-down economics does not work. Please.


Old Post 11-08-2003 07:58 AM
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Kookaburra
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post #6  quote:

I have yet to realize why people think CEOs shouldn't make a lot of money. No one complains about actors and actresses making millions on a movie. Why do they make millions? Because fans pay the price. Why do they pay the price? Because it's worth it to them.

Let me remind you that there is corruption in every walk of life, and one corrupt company... say for instance, Enron, does not speak for all CEOs.

The reason people go into business in the first place (most anyway) is for freedom to do things the way they see fit, and to have financial freedom. CEOs have a responsibility that regular workers don't have.

One of the reasons I went into business was because I didn't have a choice. The company I was working for was extremely corrupt. I don't want anything to do with corruption, so I am working VERY hard at business.

Now, when my business pays off, and I make a lot of money, who is anyone to say my reward for being in business should be limited to what people think a CEO should be making?

First of all, if you started a company that profited you millions of dollars, are you going to fix your income to match the average American just because if you don't, it will look like lining your pockets?

Second, if Americans want to make more money, get out there and start a company, but don't whine about others who stepped out of the employee rat race to make a shot at running a company. Other than those who have ill-gotten gain, whatever salary a CEO sets for themselves is their business.

I use to fear what people would say if my company profited me millions of dollars, but you know what? I don't care what they think. I have been initiated into the business world by having to deal with other companies who do illegal things to prevent me from succeeding, I've had to deal with loss of possessions when times are tough, I've had to deal with poverty, and hunger while waiting for a break. But I keep going through it all because of endurance.

I'm a CEO that is very proud to say I have worked hard to be a CEO and if the rest of America can't stand it, then they should be looking into their own hearts and ask themselves why it bothers them that CEOs make a lot of money.

As for tax cuts... why shouldn't we get tax breaks? Do you think tax breaks are only for the poor? I think a flat tax rate per dollar would be a good idea. If you make one dollar, you pay such and such in taxes whether poor or rich.

There are advantages to being in business. I look for every tax break, as everyone should be looking. Why do you feel we should get tax INCREASES? You have got to be kidding me! Because our type of profession allows a bigger salary, you think we should be punished with a tax increase?

It's also possible that someone making $20,000 feels poor because they are living beyond their means. A person making $400,000 could also be poor because they are living beyond their means. $400,000 minus $400,005 in expenses = poverty.

As for CEO perks... that's part of being in business too. The more successful your company is, the more rewarding it is for you.

Let me tell you what's going to happen if we are punished for working hard for our companies. We're going to end up going out of business, and the average working-class American won't have a job. How's that for trickle-down effects?

In closing... I'm not your typical CEO either. I plan to take my employees with me up the success ladder because that's the way I am. But even if I weren't like this, it's nobody's business how much a CEO makes. We didn't get into business to fix our incomes to that of an average working-class American to please Americans. We got into business to have financial freedom.


Last edited by Kookaburra on 11-08-2003 at 04:41 PM | Reason For Edit: Spelling corrections
Old Post 11-08-2003 04:33 PM
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An example of trickle-down economics post #7  quote:

Wolf, let me give you an example of how trickle-down economics would help the average working-class American.

I'm using 10 so the math will be easier.

Let's say I can only afford to pay you $10, even though I want to pay you more. By the time I add EVERYTHING, my out-the-door bottom line wrap rate will be so high that no customer is going to want to pay it.

Base rate: $10.00 /hour (salary is figured by using a standard man year of 2080 hours for a first year employee who does not get vacation time; $20,800.00)

Some of what I have to tack on to that: (not even counting training and other overhead expenses)
FUTA
Medicare
SUTA
Workers Compensation
Insurance

I can't charge my customer any less than $18 or 19 /hour. This doesn't even include a profit for my company. That also gets tacked on. You know where the extra money goes? To the government and to insurance companies.

Now, lets put trickle-down economics into effect. Let's say companies are given tax breaks. If you are working for a company with integrity, they will be able to pass that break on to you.

The average working-class American sees $19.00 / hour and they think the business must be making $9.00 per hour off their work. I would GLADLY pass that $9.00 / hour on to you, but I can't. The government gets it. And you want to INCREASE my tax penalty? You're cutting your own jugular vein by doing that and you don't even realize what you're saying. If you increase my taxes, chances of you getting a substantial raise will be eliminated because a company can't afford to give raises.

Now look at the customer's view point. They would love to be able to pay $10.00 / hour. But because we have no tax breaks, they pay $19.00 / hour instead. How much more business would there be if a customer wasn't being charged all the taxes? There are some employee expenses that cannot be passed on to the customer. Not all customers (especially government customers) allow 100% of your overhead. They also don't allow training costs. We the employer, have to have our employees trained and out the door to begin work. Who pays for that? Not the customer in all cases.

And employees wonder why they don't get raises often or a lot.

Go ahead, fight to raise taxes for CEOs and companies, and see how this trickles down to how much we can afford to pay you.


Last edited by Kookaburra on 11-08-2003 at 05:19 PM |
Old Post 11-08-2003 05:11 PM
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post #8  quote:

quote:
Originally posted by sayzak21
I said: "I'm curious how anyone could seriousely debate this. How is trickle-down economics wrong? I'd sincerely like to know, because I haven't a clue."

You replied: "How can I debate this? simple. It doesn't work."

I apoligize for being rude. But I was asking a question that you didn't answer. I sincerely want to see the science behind the reasoning for your position. Not just your position over and over again. I don't want to see someone else quoting your position.

Someone explain to me how trickle-down economics does not work. Please.



Apology accepted, let us put that behind us. You dont think I answered your question, but the truth is I did....just not in the way you wanted me too. You want some sort of hard numbers or clinical data which clearly proves that trickle-down economics dont work. I'm afraid that I am not an economist, and so I cannot provide this information. I can, however, note from my personal experience, what the overal veiw of the economy is after trickle-down has been employed, and my own personal beliefs on the system. If this is not good enough for you, I can accept that we have a difference of opinion. I would remind you that this is a debate forum, and if the issue were as clear cut as: "I can prove it" than it would not be a debate.

If you want to hear what I have to say, let me know. If you want something else.......maybe someone else can help you.


Old Post 11-08-2003 06:42 PM
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Re: An example of trickle-down economics post #9  quote:

quote:
Originally posted by Kookaburra
Wolf, let me give you an example of how trickle-down economics would help the average working-class American.

I'm using 10 so the math will be easier.

Let's say I can only afford to pay you $10, even though I want to pay you more. By the time I add EVERYTHING, my out-the-door bottom line wrap rate will be so high that no customer is going to want to pay it.


Who is the 'you' in this paragraph? what are customers paying? Im lost.

Base rate: $10.00 /hour (salary is figured by using a standard man year of 2080 hours for a first year employee who does not get vacation time; $20,800.00)


these are ficticious numbers, right?

Some of what I have to tack on to that: (not even counting training and other overhead expenses)
FUTA
Medicare
SUTA
Workers Compensation
Insurance

Ok, I buy that, for some companies.

I can't charge my customer any less than $18 or 19 /hour. This doesn't even include a profit for my company. That also gets tacked on. You know where the extra money goes? To the government and to insurance companies.

Why are you charging your customers by the hour? What are you selling?


Now, lets put trickle-down economics into effect. Let's say companies are given tax breaks. If you are working for a company with integrity, they will be able to pass that break on to you.

A company with integrity? Let me explain something to you.....Companies to not make money by giving more to thier employees. Need some proof? Take boeing for example. Thier factory workers, through thier union, each took paycuts on the order of about 7%, just so that the company would stay afloat. Think about that. These are the lowest paid people in the company, and THEY took PAY CUTS to save the company. What did boeing do? Gave its top-tier employees (re: CEO, President, branch operators, etc, etc) an enormous raise. Way to go. Large corporations, quite simply, exist to make a profit. They do not make a profit if they are giving employees raises. Check it out sometime. Boeing isnt the only guilty one, by a long shot.



The average working-class American sees $19.00 / hour and they think the business must be making $9.00 per hour off their work. I would GLADLY pass that $9.00 / hour on to you, but I can't. The government gets it. And you want to INCREASE my tax penalty? You're cutting your own jugular vein by doing that and you don't even realize what you're saying. If you increase my taxes, chances of you getting a substantial raise will be eliminated because a company can't afford to give raises.

The average working class american sees 19$ and hour? what? I'm confused....


Now look at the customer's view point. They would love to be able to pay $10.00 / hour. But because we have no tax breaks, they pay $19.00 / hour instead. How much more business would there be if a customer wasn't being charged all the taxes? There are some employee expenses that cannot be passed on to the customer. Not all customers (especially government customers) allow 100% of your overhead. They also don't allow training costs. We the employer, have to have our employees trained and out the door to begin work. Who pays for that? Not the customer in all cases.

Im totally lost here......who is the customer? why would the customer want to pay 10$/hour? who is the 'we'? gramatically, this does not make sense, and its confusing me.... Why are your employees leaving "out the door"? help.....

And employees wonder why they don't get raises often or a lot.

Go ahead, fight to raise taxes for CEOs and companies, and see how this trickles down to how much we can afford to pay you.



I dont want the economy to trickle down to me, I want it to start with me. (me being the middle-class American). I dont want my economy to be in the hands of a few rich people. I want it to be in my hands. I want to make enough money to live and feed my family and maybe buy a vacation once and a while. I dont want to make 4000% less than the president of my company. You want me to complain about actors and pro football players? Fine, they're overpaid as well. Ridiculously so. There, I complained, feel better?

I cant respond to most of this statement, because I cant understand it. Im not trying to insult you.......just asking for clarification.


Old Post 11-08-2003 07:04 PM
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Re: Re: An example of trickle-down economics post #10  quote:

quote:
Originally posted by Wolf_eyes
I dont want the economy to trickle down to me, I want it to start with me. (me being the middle-class American). I dont want my economy to be in the hands of a few rich people. I want it to be in my hands. I want to make enough money to live and feed my family and maybe buy a vacation once and a while. I dont want to make 4000% less than the president of my company. You want me to complain about actors and pro football players? Fine, they're overpaid as well. Ridiculously so. There, I complained, feel better?

I cant respond to most of this statement, because I cant understand it. Im not trying to insult you.......just asking for clarification.


I don't feel insulted and that's a fair enough request. Before I clarify my previous post, let me give a response to the above one first.

Can you give me ideas on how the economy can start with you, and be put in your hands?

I'm assuming we need to establish some basics before we can discuss a solution, so I'll give it a try.

The average working-class American (American) works for XYZ Company (Company) in an effort to be able to:

1. Care for their family (of self if no family)
2. Pay bills
3. Have money for recreation
4. Put away funding for the future, regardless of what they plan on doing.
5. Make purchases of items they want, whether it's clothes, tools, furniture, etc. Whatever suits their tastes in life.
6. Provide themselves with decent transportation

Now here is where the vicious cycle begins. In order for you do provide the above needs/wants, you have to:

1. Inherit a lot of money
2. Work for Company
3. Create your own company and work for yourself
4. Draw from investments
5. Use your savings
6. Go on welfare

If you work for someone, then chances are you are either not making enough money to make ends meet, or something like that. I assume you aren't an employer because if you were, you would understand why it's wrong to increase taxes for CEOs.

In the case where American works for Company, you're still going to run into the same situation where your wage should be set to the skills you're offering the company. If they aren't, you're working for the wrong company.

If you aren't making enough money to make ends meet, is this Company's fault, your fault, the government's fault? You weren't clear enough on what you want changed, or why American's aren't making it, and how the rich are controlling.

Can you be more specific in how you would do things differently in order for you the economy to be in your hands?


Last edited by Kookaburra on 11-09-2003 at 12:03 AM |
Old Post 11-08-2003 11:57 PM
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post #11  quote:

"I dont want the economy to trickle down to me, I want it to start with me. (me being the middle-class American)."

So... you're going to hire EVERYONE? If the economy started with you, and you were hiring everyone, you wouldn't be classified in the middle class. The economy can't start in the middle class. It's called the "middle" class for a reason.

Let's pretend you did hire everyone. Being in the "middle class" you probably make 30,000-55,000/year roughly. After all of your personal bills, you have a couple hundred dollars to spend on groceries and fun for the week. Minus the fun, after groceries you have about $100. With that $100, are you telling me you would employ and feed and insure thousands of people? That's what really successful CEO's are able to do. (Until they're taxed to death).

Here's an analagy, tell me how it makes you feel, please be honest:

5 guys went out to eat one day. The first guy (his name was Rich), was the wealthiest. He always had money. The second guy (Jim) was well off, but not as well as Rich. The third guy makes ends meet, his name is John. The 4th guy, Fred, is bairly getting by, and he sometimes skips dinner so he can afford the gas to a dead-end job. Paul, the 5th guy, doesn't have a job, or a car. He lives with his friends, and mooches off them.

One morning they went to Denny's together. Rich had a huge breakfast. Paul ordered a sandwhich. The rest of them got something of about medium size.

Since Paul had no money, Rich and Jim pitched in and paid for Paul's meal. They also helped Fred so he could get to work the next day.

During their meal, the guys joked around and had a great time. They agreed to do it again the next week.

This time Paul and Fred ordered bigger meals. John even got a bigger meal hoping Rich and Jim would help him out too.

After breakfast, and after tips, the bill came to $65.

Everyone looked at Rich and Jim and smiled. Rich put $20 on the table, paying of the bill himself. Jim pulled out a 10, and a 5. Between the two of them, they covered over half of the bill. The other three bairly managed to scrape together $35. Obviousely Paul contributed nothing to this since he doesn't even have a job, and Fred only had $5. John, the guy who just makes ends meet, had to forfeit his gas money to cover the rest of the bill.

The next week, the guys all met at Denny's again. They all got a meal to fil their bellies. This time Rich and Jim covered 75% of the meal. The bill was only $50. $37.50 is what Rich and Jim paid. The other 3 guys had to scrape together $12.50.

They did, and once again it was John covering $10 of that.

This time though, everything was different. The waitress came up to the table and said "Since you guys are such valued customers, and give such great tips, we're going to give you a refund. She lays $25.00 on the table.

Do the math, 5 guys, $25.00, that could equal $5/person.

Rich and Jim split the $25.00 between the two of them, and then each gave John a couple of dollars, while Fred gets $1 from the deal. Paul and Fred, got PISSED OFF. They stood up and ranted about what "great" friends they have. They DEMANDED some of that money, since they were there too.

"Why should the richest person at the table get the biggest refund, it's not like he needs it!!" Fred complained.

"Yeah, that's not fair at all" Paul agreed.

"Hey guys, I've paid over $100 in 3 weeks, how much have you paid?" Rich asked.

Do the math, the bottom two guys paid about $7. Yet they're demanding refund money.

Who's greedy in that situation? Can you see how this analagy relates to the real world?

(In case you were wondering, the refund was a refund of the tips, which I'm comparing to taxes).


Old Post 11-09-2003 02:39 AM
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Kookaburra
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post #12  quote:

Very well put!

You know what I run into? Friends who are afraid I'll leave them in the dust with success. So, like a good friend, I invite them to be a part of my company if they contribute.

I get excuses like: I'm too busy, I'm committed to something else, I'm committed to another meeting right now, I don't have time to help you right now, but if you wait until next week, I can help (never mind the deadline is sooner than when they can help).

So I ask... how much pecentage of time can you contribute to the company? They come back with an answer of about 20%. So, I set up a split of 80/20 in profits. Not fair they scream! I want 50%! I say, "but you aren't doing 50% of the work" They are furious and walk out on the business.

In today's world, there is absolutely no reason whatsoever that Americans can't learn anything. If they want a better income, it takes dedication. If they only want to commit enough work to get by on their jobs, but do not want to increase their skills, they get left behind.

For those that feel they are left behind, ask yourself why. Then ask yourself.. do I have a right to be angry at the rich and want them to be punished for figuring out a way to be wise with their revenue?

And ask yourself... what drives me to want them to be punished and taxed more?

I can answer that for you. Jealousy.


Old Post 11-09-2003 03:39 AM
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post #13  quote:

quote:
Originally posted by Kookaburra
For those that feel they are left behind, ask yourself why. Then ask yourself.. do I have a right to be angry at the rich and want them to be punished for figuring out a way to be wise with their revenue?

And ask yourself... what drives me to want them to be punished and taxed more?

I can answer that for you. Jealousy.


Thanks!

I agree.

OK, so back to my original post. Someone... anyone.... explain with logic, provide examples, do something to prove that trickle-down economics doesn't work.


Old Post 11-09-2003 04:05 AM
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post #14  quote:

Ok....sorry I didnt respond sooner......I was working very hard for those companies who dont give a sh!t about me. There are so many things wrong with your arguments, it makes me think that you both came from wealthy families and have never seen what life is really like for the low people on the totem pole. I can tell you, because I grew up in an extremely poor rural area. About an hour from my home as a child, was one of the poorest small cities in the US (actually, according to housing prices this past year in TIME magazine, THE poorest). I know what its like to be surrounded by people who have little chance to escape thier current situation. I know what its like to work 4 jobs and barely make ends meet (I currently have 3 jobs, with one more starting soon). I know what its like to have the priviliged look down thier noses and say "you're just jealous of my money". I recently moved (three months ago) into an area which has a very contrasting mix of wealthy and poor, with a small middle class. Now I know what its like to be surrounded by rich people who could really care less about the fate of the working man. I have one job as a bartender. Day in and day out, the bar I work at is filled with two basic types of people: The rich college students who are spending mom and dad's money, and the poor college students who are spending thier own money. How can I tell the difference? easy. The ones who are working for themselves and barely scraping by ALWAYS tip better. They understand what its like to have to work until 3 am in order to own a used car. They understand that its thier tips that make that possible. I have tested out this theory almost nightly, asking big tippers what they do for a living. Most common response? Food service. (waiter, waitress, cook, bartender, etc, etc) Next most common? customer service. (those people who work behind the counters in all your favorite public places). And yes, I have recorded my findings. I would try and get them published, but I dont think it would do any good.

The worst tippers are consistently mom and dad who parked thier 2003 mercedes benz in the parking lot and are taking junior out for a nice meal (its a restaurant/bar). They dont usually want to talk to me as much, I must be too low-class.

So, back to the point at hand. I think your analogy is perfect! It shows beautifully why trickle-down economics DONT WORK. Read your own words again.....when the money came back from the restaurant (in this analogy, the restaurant is the government, im assuming), there was a chance for everyone to get back equal amounts. Instead, the two richest people got back ALL OF IT, and, for the real kicker, REFUSED TO GIVE IT TO THIER FRIENDS! I don't know about you, but I would be pissed, if I were thier friends. True, they did not put in as much money, but everyone except the bottom guy put SOME money in....as much as they could afford. And these are friends! In real life, those people who get the money from trickle-down are not only not your friends, they could really care less about you, unless you represent a profit. Why should they give you thier hard-earned money? Your own arguments shoot you in the foot here. On one hand, youre arguing to keep the money that you worked so hard for (think you work harder than me?), on the other, you are insisting that anyone who gets back money at the top will let it trickle down to those at the bottom.

What? That didnt even work in your own analogy! Tell me how, in real life, the CEO of a large corporation is going to give me money? Why should he? He worked HARD for the money! He deserves it, right? why should it make its way down to stupid old me at the bottom?


Old Post 11-09-2003 05:10 PM
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post #15  quote:

ps, i accidentally hid some of my response in the earlier post in italics in the quote. sorry bout that.

Old Post 11-09-2003 05:14 PM
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Kookaburra
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post #16  quote:

quote:
Originally posted by Wolf_eyes
Ok....sorry I didnt respond sooner......I was working very hard for those companies who dont give a sh!t about me. There are so many things wrong with your arguments, it makes me think that you both came from wealthy families and have never seen what life is really like for the low people on the totem pole.


I know all to well what poverty is like. I had a plan for my life that required me to make a choice. Either stick it out no matter what trials I faced, or just make do with whatever I could find. I stuck it out, which meant I had to live in my car for about 3 months, because I couldn't afford a house. My dream took me to another state, in the south, where I contracted with a news station who hated women in business. The owner of the news station (in Florida) contracted with me for 10 years. I had 3 months to complete a project, in which the revenue generated would be 20%. The news station estimated aproximately 20% of $4 million. When I sign my name on a contract, it's as good as gold, no matter what I'm faced with. I went to Florida to work on the project. The news station put me up in a hotel the entire three months. Then came the bad part. They extended the time period where I would have to stay in Florida because they couldn't get the project content to me in time. Although it was clearly a problem within their own organization, (they were severely understaffed and mistreated by the owner) I signed my name on that dotted line, and I was determined to deliver my end of the bargain.

After three months, the news station didn't pay the bill they owed the hotel. They were on a trade out for commercials, and the news station didn't deliver the commercials. They signed on the dotted line too. I had to make a choice. The owner of the news station was arrogant, hated women, treated his employees like dirt, was crooked in business transactions, and didn't care if I had a place to stay while on assignment. He didn't pay me a dime for the work I did. I had no money, no food, no place to stay. He told me women should be employees, not business owners. His own staff set up an office for me to stay in after it got too cold for me to stay in my truck.

I ran out of gas right in front of the news station, and not a single bit of pay was given to me for the work I was doing. A police officer stopped to help and when he saw out of state tags, I had to explain why I was sitting out in front of the news station. I was crying, I was freezing cold, and had no money to get home to my state even if I wanted to go home. The officer couldn't believe I was still there. I told him I signed my name to a contract and I had to deliver even if the news station wasn't holding their end of the deal.

The owner said "I use people like you for my gain". He takes people's talents, exploits them and makes millions on it. He told me he wished he had been in the Internet business instead of the TV industry, as he knew we were sitting on a gold mine. We were to use the excess fiber optic and wire Florida from Tallahassee to Miami, for high-speed access, but what we didn't know was the news station had a history of doing business with companies, taking their work, and not paying the companies.

I delivered the project 10 months later, but once again I found myself living in my vehicle. I eventually lost the vehicle and had to stay in Florida and work until I could afford enough money to get back to my own state to continue my plans. I had a trial to work through, but I felt I was on the right course for my life, so I faced the trial instead of quitting.

I know poverty, and I know what corrupt people can do to society. I know the humiliation of doing what is right, only to be stomped on. I know hunger and freezing cold temperatures.

I got my break from Florida when the Air Force saw some of my work. My business partner had a contract with them, and I was contracted for a very good sum of money. Again, I was faced with more corruption. I invented something for the government and a Fortune 500 company stole the plans. To this day, this one is in litigation. I couldn't afford to sue the news channel, but I learned from that experience to fight through this experience. I still have 7 years left on that news contract, and can't collect a dime on it for now.

No one is stuck in a dead end job if they are willing to face whatever trials come their way in order to get to where they would rather be. I didn't care if my trials were to stand up against corruption, or face homelessness. I am willing to pay whatever price it takes to see the end of my dreams, and to be successful without hurting anyone, or having unjust gain.

quote:
Originally posted by Wolf_eyes
Day in and day out, the bar I work at is filled with two basic types of people: The rich college students who are spending mom and dad's money, and the poor college students who are spending thier own money. How can I tell the difference? easy. The ones who are working for themselves and barely scraping by ALWAYS tip better. They understand what its like to have to work until 3 am in order to own a used car. They understand that its thier tips that make that possible. I have tested out this theory almost nightly, asking big tippers what they do for a living. Most common response? Food service. (waiter, waitress, cook, bartender, etc, etc) Next most common? customer service. (those people who work behind the counters in all your favorite public places). And yes, I have recorded my findings. I would try and get them published, but I dont think it would do any good.
The worst tippers are consistently mom and dad who parked thier 2003 mercedes benz in the parking lot and are taking junior out for a nice meal (its a restaurant/bar). They dont usually want to talk to me as much, I must be too low-class.


Not everyone plays fair. There are a lot of greedy people out there, but that doesn't mean they all should be punished. Only those who got illegal gains should be punished. You seem to want to punish all the rich, but you're forgetting that not all the rich are the way you see them. I am not jealous of the rich. I'm disgusted by how some of them treat others, but even the poor mistreat people.

quote:
Originally posted by Wolf_eyes
So, back to the point at hand. I think your analogy is perfect! It shows beautifully why trickle-down economics DONT WORK. Read your own words again.....when the money came back from the restaurant (in this analogy, the restaurant is the government, im assuming), there was a chance for everyone to get back equal amounts. Instead, the two richest people got back ALL OF IT, and, for the real kicker, REFUSED TO GIVE IT TO THIER FRIENDS! I don't know about you, but I would be pissed, if I were thier friends. True, they did not put in as much money, but everyone except the bottom guy put SOME money in....as much as they could afford. And these are friends!


If I had friends like that, they wouldn't be friends much longer. What makes people think that just because a friend has money, they can go out and order food beyond their means of paying for it, then expect their friend to pick up the bill? What kind of friend does that? A greedy one no doubt. It's one thing if the rich friend blesses the poor friend, but if the poor friend is expecting hand outs from the rich friend, then their friendship is based on money, not friendship.

Let me tell you an example of living within your means. A little 10 year old visits a restaurant for an ice cream sundae. He asked the waitress how much it costs for ice cream, and the waitress was a bit snotty. She thought to herself, this kid can't afford to tip me, so why should I be nice? "75 cents" she says. The boy asked, "how much for hot fudge?" That's another 25 cents she replies. He says he'll just have plain ice cream then.

The waitress came back to the table after the boy had left, and there on the table was 25 cents, for a tip. He couldn't afford the hot fudge and tip her, so he sacrificed a luxury in order to do the right thing.

In the example of the rich friends and the poor friends, the poor friends were extremely rude and greedy. They got a break when the rich friends picked up the bill for the greedy little stunt they pulled by ordering food they couldn't afford. No one needs friends like that. People need to learn to live within the means they have.

quote:
Originally posted by Wolf_eyes
In real life, those people who get the money from trickle-down are not only not your friends, they could really care less about you, unless you represent a profit. Why should they give you thier hard-earned money? Your own arguments shoot you in the foot here. On one hand, youre arguing to keep the money that you worked so hard for (think you work harder than me?), on the other, you are insisting that anyone who gets back money at the top will let it trickle down to those at the bottom.


We are not insisting any such thing. We know the top people need to have integrity in order to trickle it down to the lower level people. We don't live in a world where integrity is a cool thing. We live in a world that devises ways to scam people of all walks of life. Our system isn't set up to punish the corrupt companies. The corrupt companies are the ones paying for the system, so of course it's going to go their way, and not the fair way.

quote:
Originally posted by Wolf_eyes
Tell me how, in real life, the CEO of a large corporation is going to give me money? Why should he? He worked HARD for the money! He deserves it, right? why should it make its way down to stupid old me at the bottom?


If the CEO has any integrity and love for people, he/she would realize that he/she would not be in the position they are in without their team helping them get there. It all depends on who you are working for. But let me ask you this… just because they don't share the money with you, does that mean they get punished? Did you not agree to work for them for a certain amount of wages? If you agreed to the wages, then why are you angry at them for making more money than you? You should have either negotiated higher, or be content with what you agreed to work for, or go find another job that pays what you want to make. Don't take it out on the CEOs if you agree to one thing but wanted another.

Not all companies are going to do what is fair. If taxes are cut for businesses, some business will pass that on to their employees, while others will pocket the difference.

As you can see by my testimony, I know what it's like to be treated unfair, to be homeless, to be angry, to be desperate for a change in society, but I also had to look at myself and wonder why I was in that position.

I'll answer that in my next post.


Last edited by Kookaburra on 11-09-2003 at 06:59 PM |
Old Post 11-09-2003 06:50 PM
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Kookaburra
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Why Americans Can't Get Ahead post #17  quote:

Do you want to know why most American's struggle? I'm not saying all of them. I'm saying most. There are very few rich people in comparison to poor or middle class. The rich are rich because they think like a rich person.

The poor are poor because they think like a poor person. How many Americans think their home is an asset? Do you?

How many mortgage companies and banks have brainwashed Americans into thinking their homes are assets?

The rich people KNOW their home is a liability, not an asset. They KNOW anything that costs them money, instead of making them a profit, is NOT an asset. But you don't see mortgage companies doing back flips to educate Amercians do you?

You want to know what changed my way of thinking? I read a book called "Rich Dad, Poor Dad" by Robert T. Kiyosaki. If I had the money, I would put a copy of that book in every single American's hands. Maybe then you will understand why the rich are rich and the poor are poor.

You said you work very hard for your money. All poor and middle class people work hard for their money. Rich people make MONEY work hard for them.

Aside from lack of education about money, which I have corrected now through trials, bad management, and reading the books financial institutes DO NOT want you to know about, I am still faced with a very tough trial. It's called corruption.

Our lovely government seems to want to do business with corrupt corporations. If you don't believe this, I can show you documentation where they aided a Fortune 500 company in taking over the plans of my company. They know very well the illegal activities of the corrupt corporations. They have been presented with documentation to show the illegal activity, and yet they not only continue to do business with them, they AID them in carrying out their crimes.

So, Wolf, in a sense, I understand how trickle-down economics will not work, but that's not because the system fails. It's because the ones running the system are failing it. We vote them in office based on what we think is genuine promises, only to find out they are not doing anything about the corruption.

As for Bush, I'm not sure yet what to think of him. He, or his staff, knows of the corruption here concerning my company. I'm waiting to see what he does with it before I decide if he's part of the solution, or just another part of the problem that keeps the corruption alive.


Old Post 11-09-2003 08:23 PM
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Kookaburra
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post #18  quote:

quote:
Originally posted by Kookaburra
Wolf, let me give you an example of how trickle-down economics would help the average working-class American.

I'm using 10 so the math will be easier.

Let's say I can only afford to pay you $10, even though I want to pay you more. By the time I add EVERYTHING, my out-the-door bottom line wrap rate will be so high that no customer is going to want to pay it.


quote:
Originally posted by Wolf_eyes
Who is the 'you' in this paragraph? what are customers paying? Im lost.


The "you" was representing you, or any person in order to demonstrate what I wanted to show. That is, what an employee makes per hour, versus what a customer or employer has to pay per hour, that is, employee expenses.

quote:
Originally posted by Kookaburra
Base rate: $10.00 /hour (salary is figured by using a standard man year of 2080 hours for a first year employee who does not get vacation time; $20,800.00)


quote:
Originally posted by Wolf_eyes
these are ficticious numbers, right?


Yes, definitely fictitious. For one thing, I don't know your base hourly rate to do an actual wage for you. For another, I wanted an easy number for figuring math. (I'm not the brightest light bulb in the chandelier when it comes to math).


Some of what I have to tack on to that: (not even counting training and other overhead expenses)
FUTA
Medicare
SUTA
Workers Compensation
Insurance

quote:
Originally posted by Wolf_eyes
Ok, I buy that, for some companies.


You should be able to buy that for all companies if they have employees. If they are not 1099 contractors, (which pay their own taxes) or they are paying wages under the table, then they are contributing to the corrupt system.

quote:
Originally posted by Kookaburra
I can't charge my customer any less than $18 or 19 /hour. This doesn't even include a profit for my company. That also gets tacked on. You know where the extra money goes? To the government and to insurance companies.


quote:
Originally posted by Wolf_eyes
Why are you charging your customers by the hour? What are you selling?


Not all companies exist to sell a ready-made product. Some are service based and charge their customers by the hour. Information Technology type services, for example, have employees ranging from 12.00 / hour to over $200 / hour. It depends on the skill requirement. I'm in the IT industry.

quote:
Originally posted by Kookaburra
Now, lets put trickle-down economics into effect. Let's say companies are given tax breaks. If you are working for a company with integrity, they will be able to pass that break on to you.


quote:
Originally posted by Wolf_eyes
A company with integrity? Let me explain something to you.....Companies to not make money by giving more to thier employees. Need some proof? Take boeing for example. Thier factory workers, through thier union, each took paycuts on the order of about 7%, just so that the company would stay afloat. Think about that. These are the lowest paid people in the company, and THEY took PAY CUTS to save the company. What did boeing do? Gave its top-tier employees (re: CEO, President, branch operators, etc, etc) an enormous raise. Way to go. Large corporations, quite simply, exist to make a profit. They do not make a profit if they are giving employees raises. Check it out sometime. Boeing isnt the only guilty one, by a long shot.


Are you saying Boeing's lack of integrity speaks for all CEOs? If you are, you are sadly mistaken. Not all companies treat their employees this way. If what you say is true, then what they did was wrong. I'm not saying it's not true, but I don't want to accuse any company of what you just described if I don't have proof they did it. That can get you in legal trouble. But lets say for the sake of this debate, what you are telling us about Boeing is public information and documented to be true. What they allegedly did is a horrible thing and it shows they lack integrity. Again, this is an example of one company, and I know there are many. But Wolf, you want to punish everyone based on your anger over the known corrupt companies.

I too am going through a trial with extreme corruption, to the point where I have been threatened because my lawsuit is going to expose illegal activity. But I am not out to punish innocent companies. I don't think companies should have their taxes increased just because some of them are corrupt!

If you want to reverse the mirror, let's look at poverty. Would you agree poor are more likely to embezzle money from a company in order to get even with their employer? In order to make up for lack of income to pay their bills? Should all poor people be punished and be treated like criminals, I mean after all, they are the ones more likely to steal from their employers and justify their actions because their employer "can afford it and won't miss it". Does this make it right for them to steal? Do you think they should all be banned from working just in case they might steal? That's what you're trying to do to the rich. You have put a box around them that all of them are corrupt, and therefore, tax the heck out of them!

quote:
Originally posted by Kookaburra
The average working-class American sees $19.00 / hour and they think the business must be making $9.00 per hour off their work. I would GLADLY pass that $9.00 / hour on to you, but I can't. The government gets it. And you want to INCREASE my tax penalty? You're cutting your own jugular vein by doing that and you don't even realize what you're saying. If you increase my taxes, chances of you getting a substantial raise will be eliminated because a company can't afford to give raises.


quote:
Originally posted by Wolf_eyes
The average working class american sees 19$ and hour? what? I'm confused....


In my hypothetical example of the $10/hour employee mentioned above, I showed that the customer would be billed for $19.00 / hour. The employee only gets $10 / hour minus whatever his/her share of taxes are.

$10.00 (employee gets paid) plus $9.00 (employee expences paid to the government, etc) = $19.00 (what the customer gets charged)

In an actual situation, a former employer of mine accidentally sent out the billing rates to their employees. The employees were furious to find out they were only getting such and such money but the customer was getting charged almost double the amount they were making. What the employees failed to see was the billing rate they saw was the employee expenses. The majority of employees who see such a rate are angry and mistakenly think the company is making a huge profit off their skills. I'm sure my employer could kick themselves for sending that billing sheet out to the employees. I know if I'm making $10.00 /hour, and my employer is billing the customer $19.00 / hour, that includes profit and expenses. But not all employees understand that. They think they should be getting the full $19.00 /hour instead of $10.00.

quote:
Originally posted by Wolf_eyes
Im totally lost here......who is the customer? why would the customer want to pay 10$/hour? who is the 'we'? gramatically, this does not make sense, and its confusing me.... Why are your employees leaving "out the door"? help.....


The customer is anyone who buys a product or service. Why would the customer want to pay the base rate of $10.00 / hour instead of the $19.00 / hour? Because it's $9.00 cheaper? The customer can't get a product or services cheaper because the government taxes the heck out of the companies. We have to make up for that tax some how. Most companies are able to pass the employee expenses on to their customers. Others make up for the expences by setting their product prices high enough to pay for the expenses. Those that don't sell their products or services in a way that covers costs will go out of business real soon.

Out the door means... they are already trained and ready to go to their assigned work area and begin working on a project. So if I was your customer, and I came to you to hire your staff to complete a project, I want those staff members to already be trained. I don't want the training costs passed on to me. I want you to pay for that. (your employee expenses) I want to hire your staff who is ready to walk out the door, fully trained, and into my company to complete the project you hired the staff to do. It's a figure of speech. They don't literally walk out the door unless they're assigned work area is on site at the customer's location. But nevermind... I guess you would have to understand the IT industry.


Last edited by Kookaburra on 11-09-2003 at 09:40 PM | Reason For Edit: Spelling corrections
Old Post 11-09-2003 09:26 PM
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Sayzak
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post #19  quote:

Hmm, ok I understand a little better now. The money won't "trickle-down" if corrupt people are pocketing the money. But those people aughta know that INVESTING that money in their business will make their business worth more money in the long run. If their employees are paid well, they won't want to leave their job. If they're givin good vacation they won't want to leave their job. Most of all, if CEO's have more money, they can afford to hire more people, who will then be able to hire more people, who will then be able to hire more people. Corrupt Corporations are at a disadvantage now aren't they, since the fall of Enron? Didn't Bush sign a law or make a program putting huge consequences on currupt activity in a business? I'm pretty sure he did in the interesting of giving invester's more security.

By the way, I grew up in poverty too. I was born to a homeless mother and step father, both alcoholics. They found a homeless shelter in Minneapolis. My family lived on welfare and moved into a tiny little house in a terrible neighborhood. By the age of 6, myp arents tried to give me a normal life, buying me old used things. My first bike got stolen the first day. Finally my parents got jobs. They got off welfare (which is REALLY hard to do I guess). Then they moved to another bad neighborhood. Then a slightly better, though still terrible neighborhood.

Finally, when I was 7, my parents made enough money to get a better house. Since then I've lived a pretty normal (though somewhat dysfunctional) life.

My parents made a combined $90,000 last year. After taxes, house/car payments, and other expenses (such as credit cards and fines), they officially made too much money for me to get any grants on my education. However, because they are taxed so much, they both drove shitty cars to and from work and wear 10 year old clothes. My step dad just got laid off of his job again, my mom broke her foot (so she can't work her second job), and we have NO insurence.

I'm bairly getting by in collegem, living at home, and using the money I earn from my modest part time retail job to pay for gas and food by myself. Pretty soon I'll have to jump out into the big bad world, probably live in my car or something for awhile, but I'll do what I have to do to survive. I will NOT, under ANY circumstances, expect my friends who have money to do me any favors. I would rather starve to death then get everything for free.

My analagy on the other page is a good example of corrupt POOR people. I understand your tips analagy wolf. And I agree for the most part. My parents for example, won a trip to Las Vegas, flight and hotel both paid for. They tipped everyone in Vegas as if they were made of gold.

My friend Scott has always had morem oney than me. He is the most responsible person I know. He's had the same job for 5 years, going from a part-time associate to a full time Manager at a retail store. He drives a new car, and lives by himself in a Studio Apartment. Whenever I hang out with Scott, he offers to buy me food. Sometimes I accept his offer, sometimes I don't -- even if I'm starving to death. I ALWAYS thank him for his offer, and I ALWAYS pay him back as soon as I have the money, even if I need the money myself.

Sometimes I am the more priveladged one, having worked REALLY hard for a few weeks, so I can finally afford one night on the town. I do the SAME thing Scott does with his money, because I have a mutual understanding. It's respectful to offer help. But don't be taken advantage of. And ALWAYS show your apreciation when someone does you a favor. That's a GOOD relationship between someone who has money and someone who does not.

Scott doesn't offer help or money or food to other friends who expect it out of him, in fact, since they showed such little respect to Scott, he dropped them as friends all together.

Sure some Rich people are corrupt, but the same % of poor people are corrupt, trying to bring the Rich DOWN.


Last edited by Sayzak on 11-10-2003 at 01:44 AM |
Old Post 11-10-2003 01:39 AM
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MrJukoVette
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post #20  quote:

Good points sayzak and Kookaburra.

Wold: you work hard to live poor - now imagine how hard have the rich worked in order to earn their wealth. Businessmen are the most hard-working people, and the more money and business you have, the less time you have left for your personal life, no more family evenings - business meetings every 15 min., nerves, rush, papers, email, etc. - all day. Wolf, it's either this way - with rich and poor, free market and global economy - or it is powerfull and weak, everybody being poor, regulated market and close economy. If you want everybody to live at the same level, move to a socialist/communist country - Cuba, NKorea... Even China understood the benefit of capitalism.

Tough times for lefties like you, Wolf.


Old Post 11-10-2003 05:38 AM
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Kookaburra
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post #21  quote:

A good business system is one that doesn't take your life away. You set up a business that can be run without you. Otherwise, you are just a mom and pop type business.

If you have to be there every day to run your business... you aren't running it. It's running you.


Old Post 11-10-2003 05:42 AM
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MrJukoVette
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post #22  quote:

It depends on what kind of business you are running. When you are just starting you have to work hard anyways. Setting up a business that can be run without you takes time and inhumane effort.

Old Post 11-10-2003 05:50 AM
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Kookaburra
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post #23  quote:

quote:
Originally posted by MrJukoVette
It depends on what kind of business you are running. When you are just starting you have to work hard anyways. Setting up a business that can be run without you takes time and inhumane effort.


This is true, but what I meant was after the company is set up, you put in a staff, including a president. You, as the owner, collect a percentage of the profits, and you are not tied to the business.

Kind of like owning a football team perhaps? The coach and the players do all the work. Of course I could be wrong sinse I don't know how teams are run, so maybe this was a bad example.

Kind of off-topic though. Sorry!


Old Post 11-10-2003 02:05 PM
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Wolf_eyes
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post #24  quote:

I go away for the weekend, and there's 40, 000 posts i have to respond to. I dont have time, so ill try to give brief responses (im in a seventh grade math class right now).


Ok, whos first.....Kook (thats not an insult, its an abbriviated version of your name)....great story, concerning your life, you should write a book (though maybe im biased, im a writer). Hope the law suit goes well for you. I am sincerley glad to hear a story that has such a happy ending/current situation. Unfortunately, they dont all end that way. I know many people who have faced down thier own hardships, and are still scraping to get by. Not everyone gets so lucky as you did. Be grateful, and be proud, but remember that life is not always so simple as "...no one is stuck in a dead end job if they are willing to face whatever trials come thier way..." Your second post is basically in agreement with what I am trying to say....In theory, trickle-down is great stuff. Sorta like communism. Works about as well when implemented, too. And you're right about out governments business...The middle section of your third post is most interesting, because it carries the most weight with me. Essentially, you are correct. I am punishing more people than are actually guilty, and as to that, I can clearly see your point. However, I feel that in Corporate America, there seems to be an exponential amount of cheating and lying, to the point of almost total corruption. Its true that I have very little personal experience with the why-or-how's of these things, but I can see the effects, read the articles, and hear the stories. the numbers are disproportionate. The top 5% of the population controlls 90% of the money. How is that appropriate, or morally "right"? Who controlls them? The government? The people who are the most screwed by this are not the poor or middle class, though they too are being heinously misused, but rather the small buisiness/company owners, because they get bad names and bad reputations, just for doing what they do. I am sorry for that. Yet, they too have chosen to do what they do, have chosen to align themselves, if by no other means than by similar occupations and incomes, to the corrupt. If they are unfairly taxed, that is a sad thing....but then, they could always change jobs....thats what you suggested to the poor, right? class over, have to go...be gback soon..


Old Post 11-10-2003 02:10 PM
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Wolf_eyes
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post #25  quote:

understand that I know that what I am proposing is less than perfect, and less than fair to everyone. That said, I believe it to be considerably more fair than the system we have now, that being trickle-down....

Ok, now to Sayzak21(zak, age 21?)....another good story, this one unfinished. Good luck. similar situation to myself, only I graduated over a year ago. time for grad school, hopefully....I understand your frustration. I feel the same thing. I want these companies/corporations to be more responsible with thier money, to care about the people that work for them, about people in general, but every peice of my life and the peices of lives around me tells me that they don't. Everything I hear and read, every family member or friend, every job I used to have (Im a teacher now--slightly more people-oriented). Its very angering.....Scott sounds like an interesting charecter. My friends and I have a different system worked out. When I have money, and they dont, I give it to them. No keeping track, no worrying. When they have money, and I dont, I accept it from them. There are no expectations, no guilt, no jealousy or greed. I realize this wont work on a global scale...but wouldnt it be great if it could? I think its something worth considering, as an idealism, not a reality. On a side note, I would like to add that we have similar backgrounds...good luck with everything....

Now juko.....arg....I know buisiness people work hard....I know some. But THE hardest? maybe, but I dont think so. Try farming some time. think business meetings are tough? try shoveling sh!t for 10 hours a day. I've done it. Good luck. Did I mention the pay? Its wonderful. Or how about bouncing at a bar? I'm not talking some upper-class resort, but a real, knuckles-to-teeth beer and liquor joint where you have to deal with 2 or 3 fights a night, often with pool cues or beer bottles, and the occasional knife. Oh, and they pay you $8 an hour, with 20$ a night in tip-downs. Its not fun, but I needed the money. Still think those business people are the hardest workers? Ok, what about being a chef in a small-town italian restaurant. Long hours of prep for 4 hours of frantic, non-stop dinner rush, including picky customers (ususally the most ungrateful of the bunch), hot grease, oven, stove, b!tchy waitresses, and sharp knives. At 7$ an hour. No tips. Ah....thats the life, right? Now imagine doing all three of those AT THE SAME TIME, WHILE IN COLLEGE. Now, tell me why those buisiness people are the hardest working again? More later......


Old Post 11-10-2003 02:51 PM
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Kookaburra
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post #26  quote:

Wolf, you're putting up a very good case, and I can't argue your last two posts. Now, what can we do to make things better in America?

(aside from revolting against a corrupt government of course... we want to stay alive and out of jail)

I don't know what happens when you fight corrupt corporations and the government in a legal manner. I'm about to find out the answer, as I have sued both in the same case, for aiding each other against small businesses.

I don't know who is controlling the rich, but you can bet there are exchanges in money in order to promote laws. In fact, one of the reasons my company could not bid on a government contract was because a certain corrupt corporation has certain lobby groups and political connections. Those lobby groups told the government to earmark funding for that [corrupt] company, or else they wouldn't get the money.

Illegal and unfair you say? Well, no one seems to be going up in arms about it and doing anything! I would suspect the ones in control are the ones with money AND with the power to make laws. Those in Congress may not have the money, but they have the power to make laws. Those with money may not have the power to pass laws, but they PAY for the laws to be passed.

And Americans think they're living in a free society. You just don't know how "bought" you are.


Old Post 11-10-2003 04:15 PM
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Kookaburra
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post #27  quote:

Just an added thought here to the money and power being in control. Money also pays those in power to look away while corrupt corporations cheat the Americans. No see, no tell, no hear, just pay me off and I won't procecute you.

Am I getting myself in trouble? Perhaps, if the government finds this message board. But then again, I think 60 Minutes, Dateline, and 48 Hours needs to take a trip to my town and expose what's going on here.

Americans need to know what's going on. They need to understand small businesses are not being allowed to succeed. It reminds me of TV shows that picture the small business being bullied into paying for "protection" by thugs. In this case, the thugs are the government and the large corporations. They have set up rules in contracting that prevent small businesses from succeeding. In fact, not only can't we succeed, but they have set up rules that force small business to subcontract UNDER the corrupt corporations. It's a PRIME/Subcontract relatioship, and when you are forced by the government to subcontract under a corrupt PRIME, you can kiss your plans goodbye because the government turns a deaf ear to the small business.

You know what I was told by the government after I showed proof my plans were stolen by the large corporation? They said they couldn't help my company unless I sued the corporation. When I sued, I was told by the government they didn't want to do business with a company that sued.

HA!!!! I'm still laughing.

I hope this case goes nation-wide exposure, because I have a feeling there are more small businesses out there going through the same thing. ... I can bet it's through the same corrupt corporations I'm suing.

Stay tuned!


Old Post 11-10-2003 04:24 PM
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Wolf_eyes
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post #28  quote:

Right on, sister. Fight the good fight, lord knows someone needs to. Let me know if I can help. I may be poor and not well connected, but I do have some friends in law schools (yale and cornell) and I talk a good game....


As to solutions...thats a toughie. What can we do? I often feel helpless and disconnected from whats happening to the society I live in. It frightens me to the point of not wanting to have children. I think, for myself, one of the most important aspects is education. The more people that know about what is happening, the better off we are. Thus, my job as a teacher. Further, my habit of spouting political beliefs at a computer screen. This forum might not have any real political wieght, but each time we discuss, debate, and seek solutions to the problems presented here, we take a step in the right direction. What's more, if we take it together, we come closer to unity with diversity, two very important things to a healthy democracy. By separating ourselves into groups and sections, labels, we gain only distance. You may call me "liberal" or "leftist", but in my mine, I'm just someone looking for solutions and pointing out problems as I see them. I'm not the smartest person in the world, but i can recognize that even my political adversaries are pretty much trying to do the same thing. therefore, I empathize, even if i disagree....

time for another class....more later


Old Post 11-10-2003 05:34 PM
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MrJukoVette
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post #29  quote:

Corrupt corporations having ties with certain governmental departments is a problem in the USA, no doubt. What you have to understand is perfection is not possible, corruption cant be fully liquidated - USA is an example for most of other countries (except for few EU states with lower rates of corruption - still not 100% honest). And corruption has nothing to do with capitalism, quite opposite capitalism brings corruption down to lower levels when compared to socialism. Huge moneys under government's control always cause different government officers to grant contracts in such way to get something in return, stealing money directly from treasury, etc. Different levels of corruption, however, are to blame on different people's mentality - Finland has 9.9 out of 10 rating of "cleanliness" - though it's system is welfare capitalism. There are many more factors... Anyways, coming back to USA, corruption has to be fought. Same in Canada - there are so many needless offices and departments, so many contracts and expenses which government spends without looking back at tax payers... Even though Canada is an example of socialism.

Old Post 11-10-2003 10:07 PM
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Sayzak
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post #30  quote:

I dislike how society breeds human beings to become tools. The money I make will go towards paying for my parent's retirement. Only, there aren't enough people in America to do that, so someone's going to have to make a LOT of money. When it comes down to it, I think CEO's and other people who "live the life" will be pressured intensely to donate money so we don't have to raise taxes another 30%. Some will scoff. Some will help. That's ebfore even thinking about what we're going to do with the national debt. American's are often way too clouded with their busy lives to know what's going on in the world. I've always been one of the "dislocated" children in America. I look for truths and problems. I try to fix things. My home is dysfunctional and dirty and perfect for making someone insane. Irf it were up to me, if I made the money, I would flip that hosue around in one week and everything would be different. I've analyzed it, practiced it, and executed it before. However, my very small voice, and general antisocial attitude thwart my efforts.

I personally do not care to make money. I don't need it or want it. If I won 30 billion dollars I would GIVE 29 billion of it away, and strategically spend the last Billion doing things good for the community, working with the good side of the government, and working to exploit the evils of our corrupt society. If I died doing it, oh well. I'd rather die making the world a better place than be miserable cattle in a world progressively getting worse.

I wonder how the world would react if everyone were as open to the truth, and to new ideas as we are in this forum? Would change happen right away? I think the emediate effects would be devistating. It would create a storm which would wipe a lot of jobs off the table. Maybe that is what has to happen? Maybe a major re-constructing is over due?

I'd like to see a new style of government which monitors large corporations and the government. CEO's have no boss when they have money. I think society it's self should be a CEO's boss, not the government (and I don't think the government should be anyone's boss). The government is supposed to do things for and at the will of the people. There should be a vote as there are in elections to determin laws. It shouldn't go through congress or the senate, it should go through each of the 6 billion citizens hands and be voted upon. Then, and only then, would the "people" actually have the power in the United states to monitor large companies -- and the government -- at the same time. Also, lets do away with some of the "federal" power, and break it up a bit so the money made in, say, Minnesota, fixes problems in Minnesota. I don't want the weak states to carry the strong states. I don't want the strong states to carry the weak states. I want each state, like each person, to carry themself. More individualism. No Special Interest. No corruption. No Political Correctness. No Affirmative Action. Everyone is exactly as free as they were before, only they have MUCH more opportunities with that freedom, and they actually KNOW where their money is going (because they chose where to put it).

We could call it: Sovereignacy

That's my dream solution. It could work. But it will probably never happen.


Old Post 11-10-2003 11:14 PM
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