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Dreamzwalker
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Registered: Feb 2003
Local time: 11:22 PM
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MONTGOMERY, Ala. (Reuters) - Plaintiffs seeking to remove a display of the Ten Commandments at the center of an Alabama showdown over the separation of church and state said on Friday they would not seek contempt charges against the state's top judge, who has defied an order to move it.
A federal judge ordered the two-ton granite monument removed from the state judicial building this week because it violated a clause in the U.S. Constitution which bars the government from promoting religion.
Alabama Chief Justice Roy Moore, who had the display installed in 2001, has ignored that order, saying he will ask the U.S. Supreme Court to decide the case.
On Friday, U.S. District Judge Myron Thompson, who set the removal deadline, spoke with plaintiffs and state Attorney General Bill Pryor, who represented eight associate justices who overruled Moore on Thursday and issued their own order to move the display.
Morris Dees, a founder of the Southern Poverty Law Center, one of the civil liberties groups that sued Moore, said the plaintiffs agreed to halt their efforts to hold Moore in contempt in light of plans to move the monument.
Dees told Reuters that details on how or when the monument might be moved had not been discussed.
"My prediction is it will be moved to a non-public room somewhere" in the judicial building, Dees said. "Moore is not going to get his stand in the courthouse door trying to block it to keep the monument from coming out."
Dees said another conference had been set with the judge for next Friday. "We think by then it will be over with," he said.
Moore has been fighting for two years to keep the display depicting the Judeo-Christian Ten Commandments in the court building in Montgomery, Alabama's capital. He lost a last-ditch appeal this week, when the nation's highest court refused to block Thompson's order.
Meanwhile, about 100 of Moore's supporters attended a mock court ceremony staged in front of the U.S. courthouse in Montgomery where Thompson works.
During the ceremony, participants burned copies of six U.S. Supreme Court decisions they said had dealt a setback to religion, including 1973's Roe vs. Wade, which legalized abortion, and the high court's decision earlier this year to strike down a Texas sodomy law.
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08-24-2003 01:34 AM
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Kookaburra
In the Now Guru
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| quote: |
Originally posted by Senator
Either that, or people who believe in separation of church & state.
The issue is less about the written words of the 10 commandments (although "god" is referencing several times in them, obviously relating to religion) and more about a religious icon on public display in a government building.
I'm suprised Moore didn't hang a crucifix over the front door. |
I think it's pretty strange people are so upset over God. They have no problem with sorcery being taught in your children's school... they have no problem with the Koran being put in schools... they have no problem with erotic dance clubs with half naked women on the billboards... they have no problem with satanic movies, violent movies, and other evil movies and TV shows in public display. Hmmmmm... they only want God removed.
Oh I remember the story now... let's see. The Pharisees wanted to keep a thief instead of an innocent man who proved He was God's Son. In today's time, they want to keep what is evil and ban what is good. Nothing has changed in a few thousand years.
You know what this tells me? People who want God removed just can't stand the holiness that He represents. They can't stand His ways, or what He represents. They can't stand it that something of light shines in their dark evil way.
They can't bear to give up their wrondoings, and have guilty sick feelings if something makes them look bad.
Isn't it something that of all the things going on in this world, they want God removed?
Anyone who is offended by God, or anything that gives glory to Him just can't stand to even hear about His name. They cringe. Even athiest who say they don't believe in God can't help themselves but think about Him. They sure spend a lot of time trying to prove He doesn't exist... and have failed. His lack of existence is only in their own reasoning, and in their own thoughts of putting Him in a box. Hey... watcha gonna do when the sky splits and the One you spent a life time trying to prove didn't exist, requires you to give an account?
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08-27-2003 03:31 AM
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Kookaburra
In the Now Guru
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| quote: |
Originally posted by @dam
They don't teach sorcery in schools, except maybe as fantasy. They don't force kids to read the koran, unless maybe they choose to take a comparative religions class, and there are parts of the bible more risque' and violent than dance clubs and movies (but people don't pretend them to be truth).
Oh really? My neice was sent home with witchcraft homework for Holloween. My sister pulled her from the public school and has been homeschooling her. This is from a public school system who removed prayer and Bibles.
They don't force kids to read the Koran, yet it is allowed to exist. Kids were not forced to read a Bible or say a prayer, yet those have been removed.
I'm aware of the stories in the Bible that are violent. It teaches us about the results of sin.
If lobby groups want to remove everything about God, then they need to also attack everything not of God. The problem with this approach is that we are suppose to be living in a free country. Freedom for who? Freedom only for those that don't want God around. The rest of us are not allowed to publically display our God, yet all of you who want Him removed can display anything you want. While we are on the subject, let's start with bumper car stickers that are offensive and degrading. Let's just take away freedom of speech. You want public representation of God removed, then let's start removing everything to take away your public rights too. Where shall we start? What hits your nerve? What would you fight to keep if someone were to file a lawsuit to remove your rights from it?
How could somebody "not stand the holiness"? That makes no sense at all!
Then explain why they are offended at the presense of anything that has to do with God, but are not offended by bumper stickers with 666 on them, or profanity, or porn... in fact.. they aren't fighting to take the filfthy magazines off the grocery store racks where children walk by every day. So you tell me why God, and why not offensive things?
And this doesn't even have to do with some generic supreme being- it is the God of a particular religion.
So what! Last I knew, the Constitution allowed us to worship the God of Abraham (or a particular religion if you insist on calling God a religion). We are not in violation of anyone's rights to have public display of our God. Don't look at Him if you can't stand it. We have to look away at offensive bumpter stickers and billboard signs, and books on the shelves in our public places. Let's start with the libraries. Let's remove all the books from there that have trash in them. You see where this is going? There are many things we have to look away in order to not see what is PUBLICALLY displayed and offensive to us. So, why don't you just look away too? Why take away our rights?
If people thought there was any holiness to be withstood, they wouldn't complain. You just have a real Christian supremisist attitude, and think that everyone who doesn't had the same views as you had them at one time and nolonger have them just to be bad or something.
That's the beauty of what Jesus did. We all have the same access to salvation. Once we accept Christ as our Savior, everything we did before has been forgiven. The Bible clearly states we are all sinners and have fallen short of the glory of God. I don't deny the fact that I'm a sinner before I accepted Christ, and after. I am forgiven if I repent and turn away from my sins. I don't have the same views today as I did before I was saved. I don't even have the same views of yesterday because as I get closer to the Lord, He changes me.
And what do you mean by "remove God". Is your god not omnipotent? Or does he reside in your granite idol? Either way, you have a problem. If he is omnipotant, removing the monument won't do anything. If you believe he somehow resides in the monument, you arent a christian anyway, so what are you complaining about?.
Of course you can't remove God. That's not the point of the monument dispute. The point is, certain groups of people want public displays removed. There is even talk on this forum that they want "In God we Trust" removed from our money. It's on our state flag and they want that removed too. The battle is not that we believe God goes away with the monument. The battle is our fight for freedom of speech, just like you expect to get the same right. Don't even go there on trying to turn this into an idol worship type dispute. It has to do with our Constitutional rights.
I don't believe anyone here has said they believe God resides in the monument. Boy you sure don't read your Bible do you? Do you even have one? If you read it, you would see it's not a sin for us to have monuments. You would see that memorials were used throughout the Bible. You would also see that God set up signs and wonders for us (such as the stars) but we don't worship them. They are simply reminders.
What am I complaining about? I'm complaining about the fact that groups of people want our rights to be violated, but they want to display whatever they choose, whether it be on their car bumpers, on magazine stands, in schools, and anywhere else they see fit to display their "unique selves" or beliefs.
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Last edited by Kookaburra on 08-27-2003 at 05:11 PM |
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08-27-2003 05:03 PM
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Senator
Veteran
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Registered: May 2003
Local time: 09:22 PM
Location:
Posts: 252
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| quote: |
Originally posted by @dam
They don't teach sorcery in schools, except maybe as fantasy. They don't force kids to read the koran, unless maybe they choose to take a comparative religions class, and there are parts of the bible more risque' and violent than dance clubs and movies (but people don't pretend them to be truth).
How could somebody "not stand the holiness"? That makes no sense at all! And this doesn't even have to do with some generic supreme being- it is the God of a particular religion. If people thought there was any holiness to be withstood, they wouldn't complain. You just have a real Christian supremisist attitude, and think that everyone who doesn't had the same views as you had them at one time and nolonger have them just to be bad or something.
And what do you mean by "remove God". Is your god not omnipotent? Or does he reside in your granite idol? Either way, you have a problem. If he is omnipotant, removing the monument won't do anything. If you believe he somehow resides in the monument, you arent a christian anyway, so what are you complaining about?. |
 Another good read!
Also, isn't god supposed to be in peoples hearts? Isn't that what happens when they accept him, they let him into their hearts? If thats the case then god cannot be removed from the people and if they require a statue (or any monument anywhere) to practice their religion, they haven't accepted god in the first place.
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08-27-2003 05:34 PM
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Senator
Veteran
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Registered: May 2003
Local time: 09:22 PM
Location:
Posts: 252
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| quote: |
Originally posted by Kukabeara
My neice was sent home with witchcraft homework for Holloween. My sister pulled her from the public school and has been homeschooling her. This is from a public school system who removed prayer and Bibles. |
Although holloween is a far descendant of a religious ritual, most people don't consider holloween to be or pratice it as religious event. I don't know what you mean by "witchcraft homework", could you please elaborate on that? Also, prayer and the bible wern't removed from the public school system. Kids are no longer forced to say christian prayer and the bible was relocated from classrooms to the library.
| quote: |
| They don't force kids to read the Koran, yet it is allowed to exist. Kids were not forced to read a Bible or say a prayer, yet those have been removed. |
As I said, the bible can be found in the library. And yes, kids used to be forced to say christian prayer. I, along with every other kid in my elementary school was forced to do so and punished if we didn't comply.
| quote: |
| If lobby groups want to remove everything about God, then they need to also attack everything not of God. The problem with this approach is that we are suppose to be living in a free country. Freedom for who? Freedom only for those that don't want God around. The rest of us are not allowed to publically display our God, yet all of you who want Him removed can display anything you want. |
Remove everything about god? What are you talking about? Nobody is arguing to outlaw bibles and demolish churches!. I see public displays of 'god' every single day and I've never known anyone to has been told to remove their 'Jesus Loves You' bumper sticker off their car, or their holy cross necklace from around their neck. The public is allowed to display whatever they want, our government isn't and shouldn't be. You could put that 10 commandments statue in your front yard or even nail a big huge velvet painting of jesus on the side of your house if you like.
| quote: |
| While we are on the subject, let's start with bumper car stickers that are offensive and degrading. Let's just take away freedom of speech. You want public representation of God removed, then let's start removing everything to take away your public rights too. Where shall we start? What hits your nerve? What would you fight to keep if someone were to file a lawsuit to remove your rights from it? |
Public represenation of god BY GOVERNMENT. What do you not understand about the "BY GOVERNMENT" part? I personally could care less if you tattooed the 10 commandments on your face and stared at me all day. However, a judge doing that in a courtroom is unacceptable.
| quote: |
| Then explain why they are offended at the presense of anything that has to do with God, but are not offended by bumper stickers with 666 on them, or profanity, or porn... in fact.. they aren't fighting to take the filfthy magazines off the grocery store racks where children walk by every day. So you tell me why God, and why not offensive things? |
Not be sound rude but if you're pay attention and comprehend what people are really saying, you wouldn't need someone to explain it to you. It's not exactly rocket science.
| quote: |
| So what! Last I knew, the Constitution allowed us to worship the God of Abraham (or a particular religion if you insist on calling God a religion). We are not in violation of anyone's rights to have public display of our God. Don't look at Him if you can't stand it. We have to look away at offensive bumpter stickers and billboard signs, and books on the shelves in our public places. Let's start with the libraries. Let's remove all the books from there that have trash in them. You see where this is going? There are many things we have to look away in order to not see what is PUBLICALLY displayed and offensive to us. So, why don't you just look away too? Why take away our rights? |
Nobody is taking YOUR rights away. You can litter your car with "Jesus Loves You" stickers. You can pass out flyers promoting your religious beliefs to anyone who will take one. YOU can have all the public display of god you want, but the GOVERNMENT CAN NOT. Why is this so hard for you to grasp?
| quote: |
| Of course you can't remove God. That's not the point of the monument dispute. The point is, certain groups of people want public displays removed. There is even talk on this forum that they want "In God we Trust" removed from our money. It's on our state flag and they want that removed too. The battle is not that we believe God goes away with the monument. The battle is our fight for freedom of speech, just like you expect to get the same right. Don't even go there on trying to turn this into an idol worship type dispute. It has to do with our Constitutional rights. |
So the first amendment gives the government the right to put "In God We Trust" on our countries money right? If thats true then they also have the right to change it to "In Allah We Trust" or "In Satan We Trust". For that matter, why not "In Peter Pan We Trust". It's all FREEDOM OF SPEECH right?
| quote: |
| What am I complaining about? I'm complaining about the fact that groups of people want our rights to be violated, but they want to display whatever they choose, whether it be on their car bumpers, on magazine stands, in schools, and anywhere else they see fit to display their "unique selves" or beliefs. |
As I have pointed out over & over, your rights arn't being violated. The problem isn't with the PUBLIC's display of god or religious icons, it's with the GOVERNMENT's display of it, which is forbidden by our constitution. Separation of church and state' means church and state are to be separated. There is NO MENTION of church and PUBLIC. You, Kukabeara, are the PUBLIC, not the government.
It's common sense to know that a statue of the 10 commandments on display in a government building is in violation of the constitution. Why do you think every single judge in every single court that has addressed this issue has been in favor of the removal of the statue. Let me guess, they must all be anti-christian. 
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08-27-2003 06:18 PM
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