Programs can make a choice. In fact you can say a program is the software embodiment of a user's choice and that can include making a program that makes a choice. Even a pocket calculator can generate a random number - i.e. chosing a random number. I mean, best damned example: AI The whole of the matrix is AI the program chooses the weather, etc etc.
Choice is kind of an illusion in the sense that there is usually a logical reason for you to chose one option rather than another.
BUT
Remember the oracle said you can't see past choices you don't understand, this implies choice is not an illusion in linear time. But for someone who lives without time like all of time is like one day to them, well choice would just be history to them, but at the point the choice was made it was a choice. And the point in time where choice exists changes the future. Now we know from the second law of thermodynamics that there is an arrow of time. So, all we know about physics says there is nobody who lives outside of the flow of time. That is also why we can remember the past but we can't remember the future - there are infinite futures!
Now I have to talk about quantum physics and consciousness. Every fundamental unobserved particle lies in a superposition of all possible states it might be in. As soon as you measure it, it collapses into one of the states. For an unobserved particle then, there is no time since it is in all possible states. So let's say when we think of neo as being able to see past the decisions he will make say he sees the universe as an unmeasured particle. This is blatantly impossible. Unless the particle is observed it does not exist in one state and if neo can observe a particle it does exist and it has to exist in one of it's possible states. Otherwise, if neo could see past time (impossible) he would see a superposition of all possible timelines. I.e he would walk through both the doors when the architect gave him a choice. Trinity would be both alive and dead at the same time, zion would be destroyed and victorious at the same time and all the humans would be liberated and freed at the same time. So neo's ability to see past time would be absolutely useless to him as in one timeline or a thousand, his wishes would come true and in the others would not. His desires would be different in every timeline. Now this would be possible in many universes or parallel dimensions which the laws of physics DO NOT rule out. However it has been shown that such universes would be causally disconnected and it is absolutely impossible for objects or information to pass between them. So neo cannot see all of time as an instant. Linear time is the only useful time for him as if he understood non-linear time he would be happy that in one timeline trinity would be alive and humans would be freed and everyone would live happily ever after. Such a being would have nothing to do, no desires and a superposition of all emotions. It would be like they didn't exist. For such a being choice is illusion but the matrix is not that powerful. The matrix could never create a superposition of all possible universes or even a superposition of all possible lifetimes of one person or - get this it could not even calculate a superposition of all possible states of one cubic metre of space in one universe. A computer and not even a mathematician can calculate infinity or a singularity as some call it - a word that describes the breakdown of all calculations and consciousness. So to say there is someone in the matrix or even in the real world that can see non-linear time is like saying - "yes, there is a person over there for whom choice is an illusion because he experiences all possible timelines and therefore is useless and cannot exist in any one timeline alone, that's why he doesn't exist to us!" So I think all of the threads and replies that invoke non linear time are implausible. If you're gonna come out with the response that it's just a movie, that's silly because the W. brothers are questioning things about the world we live in. Asking the nonlinear time dwellers about their reality would be completely meaningless. Since they would see all variations of this movie and know the answer so the question is pointless to them. And they don't exist anyway - lol.
I hope this hasn't twisted too much of everyone's grey matter. You probably realise that I'm into physics. I still apreciate all the religious undertones to the movie too.
Please do ask questions if this doesn't make sense to you or you want some elaboration. "If you study quantum physics and it doesn't confuse the hell out of you, do didn't understand it!" Some physics guy said that.
Impressive knowledge. As a lawyer, this seems a bit to tecnical for me.
I think we have to accept that there is a certain amount of fiction in the movie. We "know" that time is moving in a linear direction.
This excerpt from the Oracle's discussion with Neo indicates that time, at least in the machine world and the the Matrix, is a relative matter:
The Oracle: Do you see her die?
Neo: No.
The Oracle: You have the sight now, Neo. You are looking at the world without time.
Neo: Then why can't I see what happens to her?
The Oracle: We can never see past the choices we don't understand.
This leads us to my conclusion: The machines does not act on chioce. They are given a certain amount of parameters, out of which they act when a certain situation occurs. I do not believe they are acting on their free will.
This is why the Oracle needs Neo. She's d**n good at interpreting human beeings and their emotions, but sadly enough, she can't show any herself.
I've always questioned the notion of time, and you've really added some fodder to my thought.
I'm not getting past this idea that there are multiplicities of the future. It might be that I can not let go of linear time since I've been coded with it in our social/scientific construct. isn't more like potential energy? that potential future's exist, but once we classify our actions by "a choice" (or other means) we capture it setting it in place and giving it a momentary instance of one future only for an incredibly (immeasurable?) small amount of time.
One assumption I see here is that one person or thing directs all the futures. Trinity still has an abundance of choices acting on her as does neo much like the particle, you speak of, has a whole universe acting on it while it travels. how, then, do we know we've even grabbed the one particle we set out to capture? sounds like a question of faith?
As I read through these threads I am constantly coming back to Henri Bergson's notion that to truly know what something is we must truly know all the things that it isn't. Because we can say that the particle is here and now doesn't mean we actually know about it, because we only measure it based on our position relative to it. relative being the optimum word. relative being only through our past, present, and minute future.
ins't the biggest assumption or paradox then is that if there are an infinite number of potentials futures then there is one that destroys the whole concept? doesn't that mean that there is one that proves there isn't and inifinte number of potentials?
by the laws of mathimatics how can infinity minus one no longer equal infinity without infinity being finite?
This is something I discussed in another thread but I think it is very apt to go here as well. It's long-winded, but you'll appreciate taking the time to read, I promise...
Time is a human "artificial" conceptual notion that has been conceived by mankind in order to measure the order and sequence of events... it's almost a mere perception of our transition from birth to death - i.e., our lifetimes.
Other than that, it has no real existence. It is not a traversable dimension, hypothetically or not, because there is no such thing as a continuum of time. Space time continuum is science fiction.
Let me explain: To use the very time-based term "forever", quite simply the universe has been around... forever. Sure, the Big Bang happened, but that was simply the most recent major event that has happened on a universal scale... that we are able to see through radio telescopes. But it doesn't mean it was particularly special... like the Alpha or something. In all probability, it was one of a long line of Big Bangs that are the result of the pull of gravity sucking the entire universe in and consequently and conversely (due to Newton's Laws) the opposite reactive forces cause everything to explode out again creating a "fresh" universe.
We digress... So, essentially, as far as time is concerned, we live in a "static" universe, and when something moves from one point to another, it moves through space and granted it happens in a particular order, and granted it can be measured using a clock, but that is simply a point of reference. You are simply comparing the positions of the hands on a clockface at the start of the object's movement to the hands' positions at the end of the object's movement. And hence, we have mankind's measurement of time, and this same referencing method is used "universally" (so to speak) amongst all humans. But there is no reference to any other point in time without involving the state of another separate object to measure it. If time truly existed, then we could measure the length of time of an event with reference to the beginning of time. But the beginning of time is unfathomable, incomprehensible. Some might say that it is because it is beyond human comprehension. But that's really just overlooking the concept that time doesn't exist at all. The fundamental objects that make up the universe (rocks, atoms, electrons, quarks, etc.) didn't just pop out of thin air one day. They have "always" been around (to use another time-based term!). The best way I can think of right now is to think back to Stephen King's 1995 film The Langoliers. Without the Langoliers, the place where the aeroplane passengers ended up would've existed statically without time (their clocks stopped, remember) "forever". But things could still be moved without reference to anything time-based. They made some fundamental mistakes like saying fire and smell could not exist without time, but they are simply objects just like anything else: ions and combusting gases, respectively.
However, despite all this, the universe is not without meaning... and that meaning is the Omega (see below for explanation), and as the Oracle said to Neo, it has already happened. We just need to understand the 'why'. As soon as you understand the 'why', you are able to have vision and understanding, just like Neo did in the Matrix. He was able to transcend his powers to Zion to stop the sentinels at the end of Reloaded because he understood the 'why'.
What is the Omega?
Unfortunately, words can barely explain it. But all I can tell you is that the universe exists not because it was created, but because of a destiny. What we call the future, the ultimate future, or the Omega, is for all intents and purposes, the end of the universe (as we know it), but the beginning of something much more magnificent, a place where elements such as fire, water and air and even electrons and neutrons do not have any meaning. Physical laws are obsolete. Space and time are redundant. The universe we know now is the path to that existence. But as time has no meaning on the grand scheme of things, that is why the purpose of the universe is retrospectively due to its ultimate destiny - the Omega.
The point I'm trying to make is simply that time doesn't exist at all, linearly or not. Time is man-made in a manner of speaking... just a referencing system we use to compare the status of one object to another. The objects we use, obviously, are the sun, the moon, the earths orbit and spin, and in more modern times (or more superficial terms), the hands or digits on a clock. Because these points of reference are consistent, that is the only good reason we use them.
But, on the grand scheme of things, none of this (previous paragraph) really matters one iota, these are just static objects in the universe.
So does this non-existence of time mean events in the "future" have already happened?
No. Events in the future (i.e., everything that will happen from this point forward) cannot actually be seen... simply because those events don't exist yet. Ironically, as far as the Omega is concerned, all events that are ever to happen in the universe as we know it have already happened... but that is because the universe only exists retrospectively because of the Omega... This is what Agent Smith is referring to when he says, "That is the sound of inevitability"... The Omega is inevitable, and will follow (in sequence) the last event ever to happen in the universe as we know it. But it doesn't mean these events have already happened or are already known. This can confuse the mind due to its paradoxical implications... But you have to throw away the concept of time completely, and consider things as just being in a certain order or sequence of events, but in a static universe.
Other than that, the future is no more than conjecture in everyday life, H.G. Wells or not. It is not predictable, it is not traversable, it will simply be the next lot of events that occur in this static timeless universe.
This is also the reason why Matrix centres a lot on choice. At every moment in "time" (for want of better word, as always), the next event to occur, because it hasn't happened yet (because there is no such thing as the future as far as time is concerned), we are able to choose that next event. Every moment is faced with an infinite number of choices everywhere in the entire universe. But the inevitability that Agent Smith talks of is something that our complete freedom of choice has no escape from... and it is called "entropy". This is the gradual spreading evenly of all radiation in the universe. Ultimately, everything becomes heat energy (you will know from your high school science classes), and harnessing lost heat energy is not only difficult, but can never be 100% efficient. Therefore, eventually, the entire universe will be an even spread of heat radiation (heat is the energy that the machines require to survive, remember). But rest assured, there will probably be a few billion Big Bang cycles before that happens. Entropy is the precursor to the Omega. The Omega will form out of the plasma that will exist in this entropy, and we can already see proof of this... http://www.crystalinks.com/holographic.html explains of an experiment in 1982 of electrons "communicating" with each other regardless of their distance. What the article doesn't explain was that the electrons must be within plasma. Plasma (defn.): A sea of electrons and ions. This simulates what entropy will manifest itself as, and thus the sudden eradication of basic universal laws such as Einstein's theory of relativity. And this will be the birth of Omega. Beyond that is beyond human comprehension, and I explained Omega as best I could earlier on.
However, on time, my thought is that time is way overrated, and rules our lives... which is fine, as things have to be done in reference to each other... like we must sleep after a day's work, and we must cook our food before we eat it... But as this reference framework is crucial to our survival, we start considering it a traversable dimension that almost physically exists and is a tangible fundamental part of the fabric of the universe. Just a shame a lowly software engineer like me can figure that out, and not some mad PhD professor of Thisology and Thatology who goes to time-travel conventions and study's Stephen Hawking books about the wonders of the space time continuum.
I hope you have followed me on this, but I need to go and do some work!
Programs cannot choose numbers at random. When a program appears to choose a random number it is in fact calculating the next number in a mathematical series. By way of example, we have the series n=n+13. When the program needs to "choose" a "random" number, the program that calculates n=n+13 is called and the value of n is returned. If the value of n was originally 0 then the following series would occur:
X-treem, I would have to dispute your notion that the future is not predictable. I know that if I hold an egg 2 metres above the floorline and let go that the egg will fall under the influence of gravity, that it will eventually hit the floor and smash. Furthermore, even as I let go of the egg I can calculate the egg's position in space-time at any point I choose.
But what if the egg could choose to change direction... That might make it a little harder eh?
The future is what we say will come and will happen. This means that when it does it will be taking place in the "eternal now."
So, the future has not happened, but it you could calculate that when it does, a certain set of events would be more likely than another. For instance, I am sitting here typing this, and for the next couple minutes I will continue doing this. It would be very unlikely that I would race out of my house right now and run down the street swearing and throwing rocks at other houses, but not impossible. I could suddenly change my eternal now, as I please. The only thing is that I will most likely change my life in a logical set of actions.
When I do make my logical set of actions take place they will only be able to happen in the eternal now. So, no matter how hard I try I cannot experience 1 billionth of a second from now, until it comes (assuming that there is some sort of time/sequence setup)
Aquaflight
Last edited by Aquaflight on 07-07-2003 at 08:31 PM |
Originally posted by Pancreas X-treem, I would have to dispute your notion that the future is not predictable. I know that if I hold an egg 2 metres above the floorline and let go that the egg will fall under the influence of gravity, that it will eventually hit the floor and smash. Furthermore, even as I let go of the egg I can calculate the egg's position in space-time at any point I choose.
Sorry Pancreas, you fell into the obvious trap, without meaning to sound too harsh. Like Aquaflight said, you cannot be 100% certain the egg is going to land on the floor and smash. The future is exactly how I said... not predictable, any sort of speculation is merely conjecture. What if someone nearby grabbed the egg before it hit the ground? What if you suddenly had a change of heart and decided to catch it? What if a sudden force of wind slowed its decent - your calculations would be wrong? What if the earth opened up beneath you and the egg continued to fall further than you expected. What if the earth exploded, or even the sun?!
But Pancreas, this is not the point I'm making. Did you actually read my whole narrative, as this was merely a trivial point that you seem to have picked on rather than commenting on the general jist of what I was saying. We can all speculate the future, but so what, that's just our thinking. My point is that future events do not exist until they have happened. May seem obvious if you consider a linear timescale, but it is certainly a point of interest if we consider that time does not exist.
I'll not reiterate here, but please go back to my previous post as I think I've clearly explained what I mean by this.
Oh, and Pancreas, looking at your "Veteran programmer speaks" post, no need to boast... we're all veteran programmers I programmed my girlfriend to suck eggs in perlScript.
Neo has the freedom of choice, and the machines do not. That is why they are vulnerable. The Matrix is merely a program that has already been written. It is "predestined" to behave a certain way. And while it might be a "thinking computer" (a little T2 reference there) and have the ability to change itself, it is ALWAYS governed by rules, because by definitition the Matrix is a program. For example:
If you fire a clip at a Smith, you might hit nothing, because he can move as fast as "humanly," or even PHYSICALLY possible. But, if you fire a clip at Neo, you will hit nothing because Neo just stops the bullets.
As far as I can recall, a Smith has never done anything "superhuman." Smiths have done human things unbelievably well, and flawless. But we have yet to see a Smith exhibit a superpower.
Neo on the otherhand is literally a superhero. He can choose to fly, choose to pull a bullet out of Trinity, and choose to see the Oracle, Merovingian, and Keymaker.
NOW, HERES THE TRICKY PART: The Matrix cannot make a choice, and Neo can. BUT what if (as others have said, using physics) Neos "choices" are actually causally determined events, hence no choice at all ((determinism) A causes B causes C causes D)? If this is so, are these causally determined events that are Neo's life the same as the Matrix's lack of choice? I say NO, and heres why:
If you read a computer program you can determine what it will do if you plug in X. This is why I love to laugh at people who scream at their Playstation 2, and say its "cheating." It does the same thing every time. The Matrix is more than causally determined events, because if you know the program well enough you know that there are no other possibilities for plugging in X.
Even if you have been married to someone for 60 years, you do not KNOW, nor can you know what he/she will do. Vanilla or Chocolate, Car or Truck, Pants or Shorts, Coke or Pepsi, Red pill or Blue Pill. To Be or Not to Be (Wait a minute..) In retrospect, you can say that event B was caused by event A. But you can't know A will lead to B with people, the same way you KNOW X MUST lead to Y in a program. There is no alternative.
That said, if there is a MwM, my ideas are shot to hell. Now I would actually rather see it turn out to be a MwM, because its way cooler. But I dont think the W bros are going to do that, so I'm sticking by my guns. Choice prevails.
if the machines were that predictable then they would know what the rogue programs will do, and where they hide, and when they will go rogue. so, I think there is more to them than we can see.
I also think that in very complex systems things that look random may not be that way. In addition it also depends on one's point of view. the universe looking out seems to be very random, yet we, humans, right or wrong, seem to be able to order it in many ways. remember the world was flat once, now it is not. Europe once was the center of the earth and now is not. Humans will stop being the center of the universe and more will become clear. The last I think is the arguement against time, language, and faith.
damn I just spent 2 hours writing a worth reply especially to X-treem but my comp crashed and it all disappeared. damn i have an aneurysm - AAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHH!
i'm really mad now. I have to re-accumulate energy to do that again (sleep)
Nite nite
The funniest music video in the world is Eminem - Without Me, when Elvis is sitting on the toilet, reaches in and pulls out a sandwich and eats it - where did that come from? roflmao
neo+trinity: Oh, please write it again, I'd love to see someone's worthwhile response. Most replies I'm finding a little flat - stuff we all know, but just articulated well. Look forward to your reply
X-treem, I don't know what eggs do in your part of the woods, but in mine they hit the floor and smash every time.
Furthermore, the reasons you have given for why the egg would not hit the floor and smash are all cases of wishful thinking, none of which have ever occured round here.
From one perspective, there is ample free choice within the Matrix. People chose (or not) to arrive at their jobs on time, or go to clubs, or help their landylady take out their garbage all the time. We need to accept this perspective because we are so fiercely devoted to the notion that we have free choice. The Matrix had to be redesined repeatedly to supply us with this "feeling" that we were choosing what we desired. BUT, once we had this "feeling," we were perfectly happy to continue living in ways that made it clear that we were not "truly" excercising choice. All our choices were simply pre-set options made possible by the parameters of the Matrix.
From this other perspective, therefore, there is no free choice. Once outside the Matrix, we can see that all these choices are just programmed options that people within the Matrix can select from among. None alters one iota their true status as slaves to the system. Baudrillard says pretty much the same thing about us in this world as consumers. We are happy to "choose" one product over another, and are encouraged to invest emotionally into these "choices" (Coke over Pepsi, the Radiers over the Patriots, IBM over Mac) and to define our "freedom" in these terms precisely because this limited range of rather meaningless options is just the range of freedom allowed to us by our economic/political system. It keeps us from noticing that we have, in fact, no "agency" in the economic/ political sphere at all.
It's funny that the very definition of "agent" as in "agency" includes the notion of making choices, initiating actions. Yet we know that the agents in fact do not really make choices. Aside from Smith, they think as one and their actions are controlled ultimately by the Architect. They are "agents" of the architect. So here the definition of agent is more like an "agent" who acts on someone's behalf to do their business for them. Only Smith is freely choosing to act, because only he has unplugged from the demands of the system, to disobey. Freedom only realizes itself in the ability to say "NO." (including especially, "no, I accept neither of the choices : fit within the system or be exiled/deleted). Smith is now a rebel just like the others.
From this perspective, nothing that Neo did functioned as a real "choice" since all these acts were already within the accepted parameters for a "one," except for a few things: Skipping out on the Architect without going to the source, saving Trinity, stopping the sentinels, and perhaps talking back at AI (the architect) at the end of M1.
From now on, though, they'll be making the hard choices.
07-07-2003 03:58 PM
Now I would actually rather see it turn out to be a MwM, because its way cooler. But I dont think the W bros are going to do that, so I'm sticking by my guns. Choice prevails. 
