I would like to tackle the issue I found most interesting in either film. Forgive me if this has been hashed out before, but I find this so interesting. I was literally thinking about it for days after I saw Reloaded.
We/ You have discussed the possibility of the "Real World" being just another level of Matrix, to control those who will not accept the program, and let them believe they are truly in the real world, when infact they are still in pods.
BUT
Lets flip this idea on its head (infact the film did it for us.) There was a point in Reloaded when one of the Generals in Zion said something along the lines of "Those of you who believe in Matrices can think what you like, but we have a war to fight."
Suggesting that believing in the Matrix is nothing more than a religion. Some of you might have seen it as a throwaway line, and I may completely be interpreting it wrong, but I saw it as the essence of the film.
The connection to modern organized religion is fascinating. If you're a human born in Zion, the "real world" is all you know. Its like our real world for us, its all we know. It sort of puts a spin on people who say they have "seen God," or anything along those lines. Are there ever people who are plugged into the Matrix who "can't see it?" Are there people who are freed from the Pods who remember nothing, and never experienced the Matrix. Now I'm just rambling, but didn't the rave scene sort of remind you of Mecca or the Western Wall? (Morpheus as the high priest of sorts.)With all the ravers not just being people in Zion, but belonging to "Matrixism" or "Neoism" or whatever as their "religion."
I found this theme to be deeply moving, Illustrating very well the need of almost all people to believe in something.
So I guess what I'm saying/asking is this:
Forget about what Neo can do within the Matrix, and all the technical stuff about how many times its been reloaded, the Oracle, the spoon, the Merovingian, Persephone, and what role the architecht has etc etc..
I do not think the movie/plot accepts the existence of the Matrix as fact.
Is this plausable? Tell me where I'm wrong so I can sleep at night. I was prompted to write this after reading Fokket's fabulous post.
Damn - that got kinda crazy for a first post. I feel like I need a brain massage after that. Or at least a Gatorade.
i believe this could be the dialogue you're refering to.
Lock: I don't want to hear that ****! I don't care about Oracles or prophecies or Messiahs. I care about one thing: stopping that army from destroying this city, and to do that I need soldiers to obey my orders.
Morpheus: With all due respect, Commander, there is only one way to save our city.
Lock: How?
Morpheus: Neo.
Lock: Goddamnit, Morpheus! Not everyone believes what you believe!
Morpheus: My beliefs do not require them to.
you have a good theory. i've never really thought of this before, but after reading your post and doing some thinking i feel its more than just "is there really a matrix?" i believe that most of those in zion accept that there is a matrix. i feel that the conflict between locke and morpheus is from their belief in the role of the one as the salvation of zion and those in the matrix.
Hey, Electricbannana! If you stick around, you'll see that many of us are all about the spirituality of the Matrix movies. It is interesting to see in Reloaded how Morpheus' beliefs are shown to be a sort of minority view in Zion (or at least not a universal belief). Now, folks on the Neb believe because they have seen what he can do. But "blessed are those who have not seen, and yet believe": all the Zion born and all those who know only what they are told, who yet believe. All those who await his blessings and ask for him to watch over his loved ones. How would Zion born know about the matrix, what its like, what Neo can do? Yet they (some) believe in him.
Who will believe that he has powers in the "real world" too?
Originally posted by hejimony Hey, Electricbannana! If you stick around, you'll see that many of us are all about the spirituality of the Matrix movies. It is interesting to see in Reloaded how Morpheus' beliefs are shown to be a sort of minority view in Zion (or at least not a universal belief). Now, folks on the Neb believe because they have seen what he can do. But "blessed are those who have not seen, and yet believe": all the Zion born and all those who know only what they are told, who yet believe. All those who await his blessings and ask for him to watch over his loved ones. How would Zion born know about the matrix, what its like, what Neo can do? Yet they (some) believe in him.
Who will believe that he has powers in the "real world" too?
Hejimony, i just had a feeling you would jump in here with this one. well said. i'm glad hamman is a believer even though locke's not. morpheus to locke: "then i am grateful that it is not up to you." it would have been too star trek III if locke had more authority and could have kept to neb in drydock and morpheus and crew had to break into the neb and out of zion.
So does Lock believe in the Matrix (or maybe even already have experienced it), yet believe it is not the way to free all minds? Or does he think its a myth altogether?
(btw: if Lock is his name, the similarities to John Locke are striking.)
Electric welcome my friend! Great post! This is a new angle for us I think... I think you've underscored a really central theme here. Your post made me think of Smith's "unplugged-ness" - he has no purpose, and at every opportunity attacks Neo, for taking it away from him. Similarly, Morpheus is blinded by purpose, by his belief in finding a Messiah, outside of himself.
Yes, the Lock/Morpheus conversation (posted by Larke2000) highlights the difference in perception. While Morpheus believes in the Prophesy (side point - does anyone know why he went to the Oracle in the first place? Before M1, to start looking for The One? He didn't know about the cycle of destruction/rebuilding, so why did he go?) Lock does not. Lock's world is 3D only - 250,000 sentinals, 6 hours until they hit the main line, x amount of ships, captains... it's all numbers, logistics, probabilities (almost machine calculations). While Morpheus displays human qualities of hope and belief in something bigger than himself.
I agree with what you are saying - maybe both men are bound - but in opposite ways. Maybe Niobe's relationship with Lock will give us some clues with this...
Also - another excellent post here prompted me to think - for those born free, in Zion, having never experienced the Matrix, do you wonder if sometimes they think it's not true? Is there racism that goes on, do you think? A caste, those who've been freed, those who were born free? I think for someone who's only experience EVER has been in Zion, to try and imagine what being - and living, unaware - in the Matrix would be very difficult.
This is where the earth/heaven and matrix/zion parallel breaks down. Almost everyone (I assume -?) in heaven, has been on earth - or maybe not?
welcome, crazy banana dude w.
Well, Lock does believe in the matrix - never says he doesn't - he simply doesn't believe in Oracles, or prophecies, or messiahs. He basically believes that placing hope in Neo is ridiculous, because he doesn't believe in miracles, just in military strategy.
That's an interesting notion, writinggirl. I agree with unreal that everyone accepts the existence of the matrix. But some (zion born) will never have seen it ("Steak? Really? What's it like? and Cars? What are those?)
Others born there but released may not have returned to it in years, for whom it may be just a fading memory. (those who don't want to risk getting caught simply to refresh their memories).
Only a few would have ongoing business in the matrix, mostly rebels who free others or need to go there to pursue the war efforts.
Quite a range of different levels of exposure, but the notion that that might set up some class differences (like Dr. Seuss' sneetches, with stars upon thars?) is interesting. We see a bit of that pride in Tank in M1.
When he typed "you idiot," I think what Hani meant to say was: Great question!
Morpheus asks a similar one: What is real? On one level, of course the Matrix exists--we can see it, touch it, feel it when inside. On another level it exists: as code within a machine somehwhere, plugged into brains in vats.
But at some level, we say, it isn't "really real".
Hence Morpheus' question: What is real?
Many of us have the feeling that some things are 'more real' than others. What is the most real? What only "seems" real? This is a very important question, fundamental to the movie and its message, and it ties in very much to the question of religion.
07-05-2003 09:44 PM
well said. i'm glad hamman is a believer even though locke's not. morpheus to locke: "then i am grateful that it is not up to you." it would have been too star trek III if locke had more authority and could have kept to neb in drydock and morpheus and crew had to break into the neb and out of zion. 
welcome my friend! Great post! This is a new angle for us I think... I think you've underscored a really central theme here. Your post made me think of Smith's "unplugged-ness" - he has no purpose, and at every opportunity attacks Neo, for taking it away from him. Similarly, Morpheus is blinded by purpose, by his belief in finding a Messiah, outside of himself.
w.
curt and rude. way to show off those under-developed social skills, Hani_2.
