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fokket
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What happens after we die? post #1  quote:



Are we just going to have no conciousness afterwards


OR


would we go under something like hell/heaven?

Also if you have some info. on NDE (Near Death Experience)

do tell me.

*Do animals have 'soul'?

*After reading that soul is nothing more than biochem reaction,
I feel depressed now.


Old Post 06-25-2003 10:18 AM
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esskay
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post #2  quote:

1) any text that describes a "soul" as a biochemical reaction has clearly no concept of a soul. A biochem reaction is just that and nothing more. A soul is intangible, non-quantifiable, impervious to mathematics and known sciences. It is the mystical thing within ourselves which must always remain a magical concept, never witnessed by a tunnelling, scanning electron microscope, nor recorded on instrumentation. Measuring the effects of the immediately perceptible 4-dimensional physical universe does not reveal a soul which does not exist in the "physical" universe - it is beyond.

2) According to the Bible, animals do not have souls, cannot be "saved" and will go to neither Heaven, nor Hell. They are incapable of good or evil. They simply exist, then decompose and cease to exist. The animals and plants were placed on the Earth to serve Man. If the concept of a soul came from the Bible, and you trust that souls exist, then you must also trust when the Bible says that animals do not have souls.

3) As I understand it, according to my Born Again Christian studies, in death we would remain in wait for the return of Christ at which time Judgement Day occurs and each would be judged and admitted to Heaven or cast to Hell according to judgement. What "Hell" is exactly remains to be seen - some believe that we are already in Hell - that life on Earth IS Hell and that there is no lower inferno with torture chambers and hideous demons and such. Others, of course, believe quite the opposite - that Hell is a separate place. It was explained to me that in death the passage of time has no meaning or perception and that a thousand thousand years could pass waiting for the return of Christ yet only be apparent as a moment of "time". I have heard many times that people think they go straight to heaven or hell after death, but that completely destroys the concept of there being a Judgement Day. If JD is truth, then there must be some waiting period.


Old Post 06-26-2003 12:13 AM
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Jennifer8079
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post #3  quote:

Sean Kelly,

And any other Christian and Catholic religious persons...

This is what I hate about being so religious: there is only one set view and so you block out all the other posibilities just because it doesn't go with what you believe.

I, for one, believe in so many posibilities. Reancarnation is one. Becoming a lost soul is another. Nothing happens after death, just loss of consciousness, maybe. Heaven or Hell, possibly.

But the one I believe in the most is reincarnation. The world is a never ending cirlce of life. We die to keep the circle going.


Old Post 06-28-2003 09:00 PM
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bitwiz44
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Cool post #4  quote:

quote:
Originally posted by Jennifer8079
Sean Kelly,

And any other Christian and Catholic religious persons...

This is what I hate about being so religious: there is only one set view and so you block out all the other posibilities just because it doesn't go with what you believe.

I, for one, believe in so many posibilities. Reancarnation is one. Becoming a lost soul is another. Nothing happens after death, just loss of consciousness, maybe. Heaven or Hell, possibly.

But the one I believe in the most is reincarnation . The world is a never ending cirlce of life. We die to keep the circle going.


Re-incarnation...From many indications of many religions this is the most plusable. Except Christian. There have been much indicating the removel of Re-incarnation from the bible. The reason i think is if man knew he/she would get re-cycled...the 'Fear" of god would not carry weight. Is there a difference between rising from the dead and Re-incarnation? Maybe that was Gods message by example of Jesus. Re-incarnation is what Happens.


Old Post 06-30-2003 03:14 PM
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redraider4x4
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post #5  quote:

I love how when people get in a conversation like this they start thinking so far outside of logic. Things like..."I don't have any real reason for believing this, but I like to because it sounds cool to me and you can't prove that it isn't true." Bitwiz, you still haven't given me any good evidence for the conspiracy theory you are always espousing about things having been removed from the Bible. I know that it is a popular theory, but there is no evidence for it. The reason people find it so convinvcing is because they look at it with the reverse logic of "The Christians can't prove thing were removed, so there must have been some ancient conspiracy to remove the material that we now consider controversial." And Jennifer, I still haven't seen you give any supporting evidence for any of your opinions.

A good deep conversation needs two things: opposing views and evidence. You can only have a very shallow discussion when everyone agrees or is simply spouting opinion. Try to defend what you believe. If you can't defend it why believe it?


Old Post 06-30-2003 07:31 PM
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bitwiz44
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Cool Yes ..its true post #6  quote:

quote:
Originally posted by redraider4x4
I love how when people get in a conversation like this they start thinking so far outside of logic. Things like..."I don't have any real reason for believing this, but I like to because it sounds cool to me and you can't prove that it isn't true." Bitwiz, you still haven't given me any good evidence for the conspiracy theory you are always espousing about things having been removed from the Bible. I know that it is a popular theory, but there is no evidence for it. The reason people find it so convinvcing is because they look at it with the reverse logic of "The Christians can't prove thing were removed, so there must have been some ancient conspiracy to remove the material that we now consider controversial." And Jennifer, I still haven't seen you give any supporting evidence for any of your opinions.

A good deep conversation needs two things: opposing views and evidence. You can only have a very shallow discussion when everyone agrees or is simply spouting opinion. Try to defend what you believe. If you can't defend it why believe it?


Your correct RedRaider...I have been Lazy. A little of it is you not around as much as i would like you to be.

So....Whats your opinion on Re-incarnation?


Old Post 06-30-2003 08:47 PM
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Jennifer8079
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post #7  quote:

quote:
Originally posted by redraider4x4
I love how when people get in a conversation like this they start thinking so far outside of logic. Things like..."I don't have any real reason for believing this, but I like to because it sounds cool to me and you can't prove that it isn't true." Bitwiz, you still haven't given me any good evidence for the conspiracy theory you are always espousing about things having been removed from the Bible. I know that it is a popular theory, but there is no evidence for it. The reason people find it so convinvcing is because they look at it with the reverse logic of "The Christians can't prove thing were removed, so there must have been some ancient conspiracy to remove the material that we now consider controversial." And Jennifer, I still haven't seen you give any supporting evidence for any of your opinions.

A good deep conversation needs two things: opposing views and evidence. You can only have a very shallow discussion when everyone agrees or is simply spouting opinion. Try to defend what you believe. If you can't defend it why believe it?



Very true, but I have no evidence. Because, in reality, there will never be evidence when it comes to beliefs. I just approach the Buddhist religion very seriously. I do believe that one can reach self-enlightenment and all that stuff that comes with life should mean nothing. I do not attach myself to anything and anyone... well maybe my cat (I just love that critter so goshdarn much). But if you want evidence, sorry, I cannot give it to you. All I can do is copy and paste things down from Buddhist sites. But I choose not to do so because you can do that yourself.


I just like that fact that I can believe in it, you know?

Reincarnation is a beautiful thing in my eyes. I would love to die and come back as something else, regardless if it is a tree or a stone. And then comes the belief of knowing one's past life. I don't know if I quite believe in that.

I was told I was an Egyptian whore.


Last edited by Jennifer8079 on 06-30-2003 at 09:31 PM |
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fokket
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post #8  quote:

Jenny, who told you that you were an Egyptian whore..

what would I be?


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Jennifer8079
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post #9  quote:

Hehe,

I knew this guy who was so into Wicca, but I think he took it a little too seriously if you know what I mean...

But he claimed that he knew what I was in *one* of my past lives. He said I was an Egyption whore.

Sorry Fokket, I don't know what you were, if I were to guess.... maybe a dolphin!


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esskay
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post #10  quote:

quote:
Originally posted by Jennifer8079
Sean Kelly,

And any other Christian and Catholic religious persons...

This is what I hate about being so religious: there is only one set view and so you block out all the other posibilities just because it doesn't go with what you believe.


Mind you, I carefully chose my words. In fact those are not my personal beliefs, just my personal experiences that I have to draw upon - try not to get too fired up over closed-mindedness


Old Post 07-01-2003 05:04 AM
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Jennifer8079
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post #11  quote:

You're right... sorry. *hug*

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redraider4x4
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post #12  quote:

Bitwiz: Sorry I haven't been around very often. Life seems to rush by at an ever increasing rate. I'm glad you recognize the lack of evidence. You usually tend to try to offer some pretty good specifics. As for my opinion on re-incarnation, I don't tend to view it as such a beautiful thing as Jennifer does. Don't get me wrong, I live a very happy and fulfilling life, but the thought of carrying on the toils of survival in general forever seems tiring to me. More important than my opinion on how nice it sounds, however, is that while I haven't seen any sound evidence for re-incarnation, I do have a belief system that I arrived at through reason and that I can believe in with all my heart, soul, and (importantly to me) mind. I'll leave that discussion to the "Faith, God, and Science" thread, though.

Jennifer: If you don't believe you can approach your beliefs with some sort of logic, read the "Faith, God, and Science" thread and tell me were I messed up. You seem like a kind person, so I can't imagine you saying that it is alright to have whatever beliefs feel good to you just because you like them. What would you think of someone who says they believe in little orange monkeys that ran around in their head and who would take them to heaven if they killed everyone they saw. By your logic that would be a perfectly acceptable belief system.


Old Post 07-01-2003 07:01 AM
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fokket
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post #13  quote:

Jenny, I was told that I was a soldier/warrior and nice guy.
True to certain extent, I like anything that invloves combat.


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Jennifer8079
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post #14  quote:

quote:
Originally posted by redraider4x4
Jennifer: If you don't believe you can approach your beliefs with some sort of logic, read the "Faith, God, and Science" thread and tell me were I messed up. You seem like a kind person, so I can't imagine you saying that it is alright to have whatever beliefs feel good to you just because you like them. What would you think of someone who says they believe in little orange monkeys that ran around in their head and who would take them to heaven if they killed everyone they saw. By your logic that would be a perfectly acceptable belief system.


Haha, so true. But whatever that person truly believes in, then hey whatever. And orange monkeys sound like fun!

Seriously, people have their right to choose whatever religion they want to believe in. It doesn't necessarily mean it has to be a good, and not evil religion/belief. What about all those cults out there that commit a mass suicide just because their 'leader' decided to come to planet Earth? I say, whatever the believer wants to believe, let them believe.


Old Post 07-01-2003 06:41 PM
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helen55
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post #15  quote:

Are we talking about reincarnation as a life form, or as a spiritual form or entity?

If I drop dead in the desert, I know that very soon after that I would end up being "reincarnated" as a whole bunch of bugs, worms, maybe even as few coyote pups if I'm lucky. Then those bugs, worms, and pups would be further reincarnated as cacti, birds, mountain lions, etc. as it happens if you are part of the food chain.

So in my opinion, we intentionally prevent reincarnation as other life forms by cremation and other traditional burial methods.

If we are talking about the person's "spirit" or "soul" being reincarnated as a tree, or as another person, I have no logical reason or any knowledge to support that is what is happening. During mass extinctions (e.g. dinosaurs), or massive population explosions (e.g. humans) wouldn't there be a catastrophic chaos and crisis in the reincarnation system??

I believe that all life forms are inter-connected (everything being part of God) and we can nurture life or destroy it. But no, in a spiritual sense I cannot believe in reincarnation, it is hard enough to believe that we exist, are able to think about these things, are able to communicate our thoughts here, using computers, on this particular planet, in this vast universe.


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post #16  quote:

quote:
Originally posted by helen55

If we are talking about the person's "spirit" or "soul" being reincarnated as a tree, or as another person, I have no logical reason or any knowledge to support that is what is happening. During mass extinctions (e.g. dinosaurs), or massive population explosions (e.g. humans) wouldn't there be a catastrophic chaos and crisis in the reincarnation system??

I believe that all life forms are inter-connected (everything being part of God) and we can nurture life or destroy it. But no, in a spiritual sense I cannot believe in reincarnation, it is hard enough to believe that we exist, are able to think about these things, are able to communicate our thoughts here, using computers, on this particular planet, in this vast universe.


---------
Helen55, I love how you think. I have NEVER thought about the effects mass extinction or accelerated population growth would have on reincarnation (probably because I don't believe in it in the form it takes in other religions...). Great mind!

I have to say that I've always believed that once we die, we lie in 'sleep' or stasis until the time of Christ's 2nd coming as told in the bible. We will not experience anything during the time we are dead, and when we are RESSURECTED it will seem like we are waking up. Kind of like after being put under before an operation, and waking up after the procedure is complete. For me mentally, no time passed from the time I was anesthetized, to the time I was revived.


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post #17  quote:

quote:
Originally posted by Jennifer8079
Sean Kelly,

And any other Christian and Catholic religious persons...

This is what I hate about being so religious: there is only one set view and so you block out all the other posibilities just because it doesn't go with what you believe.

I, for one, believe in so many posibilities. Reancarnation is one. Becoming a lost soul is another. Nothing happens after death, just loss of consciousness, maybe. Heaven or Hell, possibly.

But the one I believe in the most is reincarnation. The world is a never ending cirlce of life. We die to keep the circle going.


I agree with you, Jennifer. Too many religions say that they are the ONLY true religion. BLECK!! Not for me. Never has been, never will be.
I had some mormon friends, and they said they they are the only ones that go to the "third level" in heaven... or something like that. Whatever. They said that if you aren't mormon, you haven't earned your way. PLEASE!!!
I'm not completely sure what I think about life after death... but I know that it's just more than the body passing. I think that we live many lives, learning things along the way.


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stin
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Re: What happens after we die? post #18  quote:

quote:
Originally posted by fokket


*After reading that soul is nothing more than biochem reaction,
I feel depressed now. [/B]


Don't, everyone doesn't share that apprehension. There are three main views on this (the human mind/consiousness/soul), that i've heard of:

Materialism-the depressing theory. Materialists claim that everything we feel and think is merely due to chemical reactions in our brains.

Idealism-the belief that nothing physical exists and that everything is an illusion created by our minds.

Dualism- the belief that the part of us that thinks and feels is separate from the physical brain.


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post #19  quote:

Actually the New Testament says... to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord....

I take that as with we are in our bodies living or we are absent from out bodies with Lord....in HEAVEN.... I am glad it doesn't say that....to be absent from the body is to be asleep and not knowing of anything until the Lord returns....

I like these threads....good thinking by all of you....see ya....


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1young11
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post #20  quote:

In reincarnation where do new lives come from? I mean if somone continues to live good lives they eventually pass into nirvanah right? So if those people are taken out of the reincarnation system, and placed into nirvanah, does a new life take their place? If so where does the new life come from, and if not wouldn't the population of the Earth continually decrease as more people enter into nirvanah?

Old Post 08-15-2003 05:32 PM
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Medina
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post #21  quote:

The reincarnation belief is actually a very depressing view if you really think about it...

Check this out: The belief in Karma usually goes along with the belief in reincarnation- so that means if you lived a bad life here on earth then you will pay for it in your next life...EVEN if you don't remember doing bad in your former life!

So if you abused your kids in your life you might be abused
(or go through some very horrible stuff above and beyond the normal amount of pains in life) to pay for that Karmadic debt you owe from the previous life you lived.....you keep going around and around until you have lived the perfect life.

So that means that the reincarnationist is NEVER sure of how they are doing in their present life....

when someone calls themselves a basically GOOD person, what is the standard they are measuring themselves to....Hitler or Mother Teresa? Both didn't live PERFECT lives although we know that Teresa lived a very good life in her adult years and gave up a wonderful job teaching to a wealthy family's children in order to serve the poor.

The Christian view of life and death is much much better.....

We believe that we can NEVER live the perfect life and it is by God's perfect love for us and His forgivness that allows us to live ONE LIFE, die and spend eternity with Him in love and peace....See? We only have to do life ONE time and then move on to something better that will BLOW our minds away and it's called HEAVEN!

See? It isn't hard to understand and it sounds much more loving than reincarnation doesn't it?

There is actually a God up there who cares about you as an individual. This God came down to live the perfect life in YOUR place so all you have to do is believe that He did this and TRUST Him with your heart...Acknowledge that your life and my life comes up far short of perfection and let him give us a NEW life while we are still living. He has a purpose for you AND a PLAN for your life right NOW!!! IT's not your decision...it's your DISCOVERY!!!AWESOME!!!!

We are not called by God to simply believe in a ho-hum way and say, "Well thats nice that He went to the cross for us and this "religion" seems cute with Christmas and Easter."

No, no...God has called all of us into an exciting relationship with Him to experience all that He has for us.

He wants us to learn to love people, forgive people, lift the hurting up and dust them off and help to make them whole again....God is in the business of giving people 2nd, 3rd and 4th chances....But we have to be sincere with Him just like we have to be sincere with our family and friends who we are in relationship with. We can't use God as a doormat and live the life that He has given us to serve our "pleasures". We have to use our life as a gift BACK to God and as a thankyou....

Ok ok...i'm done...would love to know what any of you have to say on this topic....thanks for reading....Chris


Old Post 08-15-2003 10:06 PM
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Marlene Newell
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post #22  quote:

quote:
Originally posted by KJPotter


I agree with you, Jennifer. Too many religions say that they are the ONLY true religion. BLECK!! Not for me. Never has been, never will be.
I had some mormon friends, and they said they they are the only ones that go to the "third level" in heaven... or something like that. Whatever. They said that if you aren't mormon, you haven't earned your way. PLEASE!!!
I'm not completely sure what I think about life after death... but I know that it's just more than the body passing. I think that we live many lives, learning things along the way.


Either your Mormon friends are misinformed, or you misunderstood.

You obviously know the Mormon belief about 3 degrees of glory (or heaven), and that the 3rd degree, the highest, is called the celestial kingdom. Only those persons who meet the requirements of this kingdom can enter into it. Those requirements are to receive the ordinances of the gospel. Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven.

If Mormons believed that only people who are Mormons could enter the Celestial Kingdom, believe me, they would not spend so much time and so much money doing proxy work for the dead--they would just say, too bad, so sad. The whole point of that massive program is to give EVERY person who has lived the opportunity to receive the ordinances that are necessary for the celestial kingdom.

Those who do not go to the Celestial Kingdom (and there are likely to be a fair share of Mormons among this group, cause to whom much is given, much is expected), there is the Terrestrial Kingdom and the Telestial Kingdom. The lowest, the Telestial Kingdom, is described as glorious beyond comprehension--and it's the lowest. The Telestial kingdom is likened to the stars in the heaven, and has many degrees of sub-kingdoms, as the variations in us mortals are quite plentiful. Heaven isn't a one-size fits all kind of place.

I don't understand why anyone is offended that God has set requirements for entering into his Heaven. It's his heaven, not ours. He can set whatever requirements he wants. And, he has made those requirements quite plain in the scriptures.

If you feel confident that you are meeting the requirements he has established, then why does what another religion preach concern you?


Old Post 08-18-2003 03:37 AM
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helen55
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post #23  quote:

I am concerned about someone confusing Mormons as Christians...there is only one heaven and you get there by the Grace of God who sent Christ for our salvation.

Christians do not believe in any manner of anyone being able to buy anyone's way into heaven...well, maybe the Catholics still do, but it is no longer the money machine it once used to be....

And for Christians there is only ONE Kingdom..and it is God's Kingdom and we can all become children of God thru the sacrifice of Christ.


Last edited by helen55 on 08-18-2003 at 05:11 AM |
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Edorion
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post #24  quote:

I hate to post this without being able to give references, but I was watching a special on TV that said early Christians believed in reincarnation and even that Jesus may have spoke of it in the Bible. Like I say, I don't have any evidence of this, but that is what I heard.

Old Post 08-28-2003 07:23 AM
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post #25  quote:

Man-made Gods
The way I see it is that the only way we know about God is through the Bible, or by word of mouth. Humans like you and I wrote the Bible. Humans are imperfect, and subject to irrational thoughts and behavior. Some people had a good idea. They called this idea God and wrote a book about it. If I wrote a book today and claimed voices told me what to write, that a burning bush spoke to me or that I found a stone tablet with laws written by a spirit, I would be wearing a straight jacket in a padded room. The point I'm trying to make is that when you say you believe in God, you're putting your faith in the men who wrote the bible, hoping they weren't just lonely people searching for answers like we are. It all boils down to whether or not those people knew what they were talking about. Are you going to model your entire life after a book written by humans who, by the way, didn't know near as much as we do today? Personally I think it's crazy.


Old Post 08-28-2003 07:36 AM
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post #26  quote:

quote:
Originally posted by Edorion
Man-made Gods
The way I see it is that the only way we know about God is through the Bible, or by word of mouth. Humans like you and I wrote the Bible. Humans are imperfect, and subject to irrational thoughts and behavior. Some people had a good idea. They called this idea God and wrote a book about it. If I wrote a book today and claimed voices told me what to write, that a burning bush spoke to me or that I found a stone tablet with laws written by a spirit, I would be wearing a straight jacket in a padded room. The point I'm trying to make is that when you say you believe in God, you're putting your faith in the men who wrote the bible, hoping they weren't just lonely people searching for answers like we are. It all boils down to whether or not those people knew what they were talking about. Are you going to model your entire life after a book written by humans who, by the way, didn't know near as much as we do today? Personally I think it's crazy.


Grazy is good...you are just starting to think if you think something is grazy...it's like breaking MACH1 ... or daring to think that the earth is not the center of the universe or it's not flat.....

and when you get free from all of your man made concepts, you leave all the grazy stuff behind and come into this very calm place that feels like your true home (not talking about buildings here, sorry...no photos available)..... and you will start to understand that there is a God, one God, and He wants to know you at a personal level, so when you drop down to reality you can read a book written by other men who have been to such a place before and you can understand them....sounds grazy? but it is so much better than good


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post #27  quote:

I can understand where you're coming from. I really can. I was raised Baptist, and haven't always followed this way of thinking. But, as I got older and smarter, I realized that I had no idea what I was putting my faith in. Does having a book written about something make it true? That was rhetorical, of course it doesn't. The human imagination is surpassed only by human ignorance. By ignorance of course I mean to not know better. You hear others talk about this "place" you speak of, and it's not hard to take yourself there. It sounds good; it even feels good, but that doesn't make it real either. Please reply; I like your point of view.

Old Post 08-28-2003 08:49 AM
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post #28  quote:

quote:
Originally posted by Edorion
I can understand where you're coming from. I really can. I was raised Baptist, and haven't always followed this way of thinking. But, as I got older and smarter, I realized that I had no idea what I was putting my faith in. Does having a book written about something make it true? That was rhetorical, of course it doesn't. The human imagination is surpassed only by human ignorance. By ignorance of course I mean to not know better. You hear others talk about this "place" you speak of, and it's not hard to take yourself there. It sounds good; it even feels good, but that doesn't make it real either. Please reply; I like your point of view.


1st nothing can possibly surpass my imagination...lol

I was ignorant for about 35 years....and I knew better but at the time thought it was better and more fun to remain ignorant ...

It was extremely hard for me to find that "place" and to get to it -I think of it as my private place anyway, I found it by myself with some higher power who turned out to be God... it's my holy place while I have a body on earth...

To get there however, I had to go thru a messy divorce after 20 years of marriage, had to become completely bedridden and so weak that I could not lift my hand for 2 years...I was left with nothing but my mind...so I was forced to deal with it all alone ...with my mind that is...and thank God for all that free time I had I found that place of mine while laying in bed for 2 years ....

So I found out where I came from and where I'm going... and in the mean time life here is just wonderful, good and grazy...who said a Christian can't have fun??


Old Post 08-28-2003 09:06 AM
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post #29  quote:

I hate to hear that you had to go through all that. During those two years I imagine you did a lot of soul-searching, and if the Christian God is what you found, who am I to tell you you're wrong. Everyone is entitled to their beliefs. My apologies. So, how are you doing now?

Old Post 08-28-2003 09:29 AM
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post #30  quote:

quote:
Originally posted by Edorion
I hate to hear that you had to go through all that. During those two years I imagine you did a lot of soul-searching, and if the Christian God is what you found, who am I to tell you you're wrong. Everyone is entitled to their beliefs. My apologies. So, how are you doing now?


Just great! I'm walking and talking, but no longer into active sports which I miss. But don't feel sorry for me at all ... I thank God this illness happened before I died. Else I could have missed the whole purpose of this trip on earth...I was just over my head into the material goodies of this world before I was "born again" of the spirit


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