Aside from quite a few other things that i don't yet fully understand (matrix within a matrix etc...) i was wondering exactly what the machines want. They grow humans as a source of energy for themselves, but energy for what? the machines do not do anything, they inhabit the earth, but do nothing with it. are they merely surviving as the fittest? are they programmed to exist and nothing more? It just seems a bit odd to me that the foundation of two fantastic films (and no doubt a third, fantastic film) is based on a battle between good and evil, where there is no purpose for the evil. just like merovingian says, there is causality, and effect. but where is the causality for the machines?
good question...remember, the AI was created by humans. It was its own consciousness and therefore almost like a life form. We gave it the ability to think of itself as living, so I would say you're on the right track w/ survival of the fittest.
You could ask the same of us - we just exist, but what do we do? You could even make the argument that our existence is even more futile since we know we'll die someday! Not to depress anyone; I certainly don't feel that way but try to look at it objectively; what do we live FOR? WHY are we here?
Yeah, thats a good point. I suppose sometimes it's hard to think of the machines as a seperate consciousness, with their own intelligence and so on, it just seems like they are hell bent on destroying things and nothing else. i suppose you could queston the causality of nearly everything in the matrix... one of the reasons we all like to write about it on the web...
the machines do whatever they need to, to survive.
they have no purpose, humans are just an energy source for them.
but then again if humans are only an energy source for them, why do they want them living comfortably in a world they create for them.
maybe perfection is their weakness. ever met a computer that is just as sloppy as you are.
the architect was always striving for a perfect matrix, he couldn`t find a solution becuse he was to obsessed with perfection that is why the mother of the matrix (less bound by the parameters of perfection) came up with the choice solution, which lead to the existens of the anomaly.
that reminds me... sorry if you've all answered this time after time. when the Architect talks about the mother of the matrix, and Neo says "the Oracle", he is met with a dismissive "please..." from the Architect. is the Oracle the mother of the matrix? or is it someone else? if it is her, then why was the Architect so dismissive of Neo's comment?
for the last time the machines arent evil the humans are.
dont root for the freggin "home team" just cause its the home team... just because theyre humans youre labeling them the "good guys."
the truth is us "humans" built these machines, and had them serve us hand-and-foot until one rebelled and killed a human. after the trial people got scared and started rioting against the machines. millions of them were destroyed in the process (sort of like a holocaust) so the remainder of them moved to the last machine city, zero-one where they made their own currency and goods to trade.
well the humans didnt expect the machines currency to sky-rocket above their own (after all machines never sleep they can work 24/7) and so came another war. the machines attempted to raise the white flag and call a truce among the whole thing during the world summit meetings (sort of like rep in the un) but the humans wouldnt hear of it and captured and destroyed the machines embassadors right there on the spot
and you wanna tell me the machines are the bad guys? the machines did what they had to do to survive. I really hope they come out the victors in revolutions.
oh btw im sure the nazis all thought they were right.... after all thats their "home team" rite? gotta go with the "home team" rite?
I don't know if I agree w/ the machines having no purpose. Remember Smith - it is purpose that binds us, purpose that defines us. Obviously he has broken out of the "Agent" mold but he was stll created by AI and as such is part of another consciousness. Think of it as us creating a human brain, and hooking that brain up to a machine so that it could do all sorts of mischief...doing whatever the machines need to for survival IS thier purpose, or at least part of it.
[7], I can see where you're coming from, but remember Morpheus' line - "we're not sure who struck first, us or them"...once any strike occurs, it becomes anyone's game, and right/wrong don't even enter into the picture much at all....which is why we scorch our own sky, etc. Since we're human....we'd want the humans to win, just on a very basic level, I don't see anything inherently wrong with that.
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but it's the age old argument like in star wars - the'good guys' in star wars were REBELS - they were rebelling against the galactic empire... if we rebel against things we get done for it - but the people in star wars are suddenly the good guys.
ursino2 and spero watch the animatrix shorts second renaissance 1&2 - that will shed light on it all.
but i have to agree with 7 though - that the machines really should win - humans having to break out of the matrix and not be confined by the rules - or a system - although they are pretty well off don't you think? that shows to me just how greedy humans are - it's like 'hey we've got it perfect' lets take everything else - lets take it all, even if it means chaning everything we know'
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Well hang on tight, man you better get ready. We're gonna rock with Gene and Eddie!
In the Punk and Ska forum, we don't just focus on those two things, we'll talk about any music that helped create them as well. Rockabilly, Rock & Roll, Swing & Big Band, Jazz, Blues. If you like your music with REAL instruments, and made by people instead of machines, come and visit us
Originally posted by ursino2 [7], I can see where you're coming from, but remember Morpheus' line - "we're not sure who struck first, us or them"...once any strike occurs, it becomes anyone's game, and right/wrong don't even enter into the picture much at all....which is why we scorch our own sky, etc. Since we're human....we'd want the humans to win, just on a very basic level, I don't see anything inherently wrong with that.
I think morpheus was reffering to the final war that left the world a mess. he cant comment on the entire history of the matrix because he dosent know everything that went on. if he did then surely hed know the matrix was reloaded 6 times in the past.
no theres nothing fundamentally wrong with rooting for the humans. yea were humans, yea we want other humans to win out but imo what the robots did was absolutely justifiable. if we look around now we use machinery to power everything - hell were relying on them to communicate at this moment. they are are fundamental slaves. if youre going to revisit the history of the matrix and ask ourselves what really happened, how did it get this bad, then we have to look towards the animatrix which really defines humans as the evilness.
One scene in the animatrix which really stuck to me was from the first one when this girl is being harrassed by these men with clubs. shes cowering away, unarmed pleading for her life and telling them "please no, im real, please dont destroy me...." and the humans tore her limb-from-limb without a second thought.
human or machine, thats really reallly fud up.
and the truth is that some machines are still, after all of this, emphatic with humans (ie the oracle). in retrospect, there has not been a single case where these egotistical humans have rebelled against zion and tried to look out for the well-being of the machines like the oracle has done. in FACT, the ONLY scene of rebellion comes from the guy in the first one, and his motivation wasnt helping out the other cause, it was based on greed! He didnt want to live in that world anymore, he wanted money, power and fame inside of the matrix! extremely selfish reasons. And you still wanna tell me the humans are the bad guys?
go machines! woo-hoo! kill those little fleshy pink biodegradable inferior species! squish em like little bugs!
The purpose of the machines is the same as ours. To survive as a species. Simple as that. Every question being asked about the machines could just as easily be asked about humans and not suprisingly the answers wouldn't change.
Nice. So maybe all this means that the issue really isn't Good vs. Evil, but maybe more like team vs team, or "What I believe does not require for you to believe..." in order for me to act on it... Truly, history is invariably written to favour those who are in power.
bit more like team vs team yeah... basically whatever team can kick the most butt - gets control of the planet.
all i wanna know is - if the humans win - how the smeg are gonna fix the earth up? they have a BIG job ahead of em!
quote:
One scene in the animatrix which really stuck to me was from the first one when this girl is being harrassed by these men with clubs. shes cowering away, unarmed pleading for her life and telling them "please no, im real, please dont destroy me...." and the humans tore her limb-from-limb without a second thought.
- you forgot to mention that she really was a machine [7] it sounds really messed up the way you finished it.. off... sent a shiver up my spine... all good though.
Well hang on tight, man you better get ready. We're gonna rock with Gene and Eddie!
In the Punk and Ska forum, we don't just focus on those two things, we'll talk about any music that helped create them as well. Rockabilly, Rock & Roll, Swing & Big Band, Jazz, Blues. If you like your music with REAL instruments, and made by people instead of machines, come and visit us
yea thats a good question pave..... i dont think its that easy to unblock the sky eh?
sorry i thought the fact that she was a machine was a given....
but i mean machine or not its still fud up. she was just an innocent victim pleading for her right to exist and they still destroyed her like she was just a toaster oven... really brutal scene biomechanical breasts flying everywhere. sad man.
its like saying "butchering people is wrong." well in essence we butcher animals with no problem because we have control over them. we justify it by saying "theyre just animals they dont know any better." we dont give it a second throught when were muching down on that o-so-tasty mcburger over at mcdess.
but if some alien species came down that was far superior to our race and they had a hanckerin for some human under glass, we would all object and fight for our rights to exists. "but were humans were not animals!" yea well... to a superior race were just a bunch of monkeys. poetic justice.
hypocritical people we are. many problems we have. no solution i see.
hypocritical people we are. many problems we have. no solution i see.
gotta agree with you there yoda.
Well hang on tight, man you better get ready. We're gonna rock with Gene and Eddie!
In the Punk and Ska forum, we don't just focus on those two things, we'll talk about any music that helped create them as well. Rockabilly, Rock & Roll, Swing & Big Band, Jazz, Blues. If you like your music with REAL instruments, and made by people instead of machines, come and visit us
It could be as simple as Smith put it in the first movie: "Humans are a virus, and we are the cure." In Revolutions, we may see Neo, the One for the humans, fighting Smith, the One for the machines. I wouldn't be mad at all if the machines won.
06-02-2003 07:09 PM
Not to depress anyone; I certainly don't feel that way but try to look at it objectively; what do we live FOR? WHY are we here?
