Accordind to classified documents obtained by the BBC (2006) under the [Freedom of Information Act] ,
Britain helped Isreal with its secret nuclear program in the 60s by supplying it with significant quantities of PLUTONIUM ( lodgebo you didn't give this reason) despite intellligence warnings.
This disclosure, along with revalations that Britain sold Israel heavy water ( a key substance in bulding a nuclear bomb) has cause concern that it tried to " cover up" its role in Israel's nuclear program.
Well thats not the whole stroy Malcolm oh and FYI the plutonium that we have talked about before is not this plutonium. Also heavy water is not radio active ( see link).
Ok here is the real story first of all Britainj did not sell the heavy water to Israel it was actually Norway so really it's thier problem. Yes the product was picked up in the UK and we only suspected that Isarel would make a bomb, the US had slightly more suspcion but intel sharing was not popular during the 60's even among allies. So the only real thing the UK is guilty of is letting the transaction happen on UK soil we can't exactly dictate who Norway sells to can we.
Anyway this story is more than two years old it's all been pretty much dealt with Howells was cleared of misleading the prliament and to my knowledge no action was taken against Norway and the IAEA have not found any wrong doing. It was basically a storm in a tea cup.
lodgebo01 said this in post #2 : Well thats not the whole stroy Malcolm oh and FYI the plutonium that we have talked about before is not this plutonium. Also heavy water is not radio active ( see link).
Ok here is the real story first of all Britainj did not sell the heavy water to Israel it was actually Norway so really it's thier problem. Yes the product was picked up in the UK and we only suspected that Isarel would make a bomb, the US had slightly more suspcion but intel sharing was not popular during the 60's even among allies. So the only real thing the UK is guilty of is letting the transaction happen on UK soil we can't exactly dictate who Norway sells to can we.
Anyway this story is more than two years old it's all been pretty much dealt with Howells was cleared of misleading the prliament and to my knowledge no action was taken against Norway and the IAEA have not found any wrong doing. It was basically a storm in a tea cup.
Classified documents through the Freedom of Info Act ( by BBC) disagrees with you and says "Britain sold Isreal heavy water" and doesn't mention Norway.
Are you telling us info from the doc are wrong and we should believe you for the "real" story? Are you accusing your gov of not telling the truth?
Whatever your story of Britain's role in developing nuclear program, doesn't it qualify as help? Did Britain Help in anyway? This is what the classified doc accusation against your home gov.
(Unless it can be drunk),
Hard water being a key component in developing nuclear weapons is all the info needed.
No your wrong again ( don't you get tired of that) look the fact is that Norway sold it the Norwegian government admits that, the IAEA acknowledges that, the EU acknowdledges that and that is all fact.
Now you provide this FOI document ( which I assume you have read in great detail seeing as you are an expert and all) go Malcolm time to put up or shut up show us the document.
Also you really are showing your lack of knowledge of Britain ( seriouly your embarresing yourself) The British government in London is my national government and the governemnt in Scotland is my home Governemnt unless you are saying the Scottish government supplied this water you are getting things mixed up.
lodgebo01 said this in post #4 : No your wrong again ( don't you get tired of that) look the fact is that Norway sold it the Norwegian government admits that, the IAEA acknowledges that, the EU acknowdledges that and that is all fact.
Now you provide this FOI document ( which I assume you have read in great detail seeing as you are an expert and all) go Malcolm time to put up or shut up show us the document.
Also you really are showing your lack of knowledge of Britain ( seriouly your embarresing yourself) The British government in London is my national government and the governemnt in Scotland is my home Governemnt unless you are saying the Scottish government supplied this water you are getting things mixed up.
Have you read the link that gives article with the headline only claiming Britain is guilty of helping Isreal deveelop its nuclear program.
I dont have the FOI document but a major British newspaper writes that the BBC used the FOI to get the info on it.
If you cannot except this as proof then its useless for anyone to try and provide proof of anything to (over patriotic people) such as you.
You criticize for not giving a link for my posts and now when I do, you say I need more.
Have you read thye stroy that says Britain was not involved?
BBC may very wll have used FoI to get this story but it never made the televised news or any paper I read becuse it's a NON STORY it might be of interest in Oslo but we really don't care who Norway trades with as long as they keep sending Edinburgh that nice Christmas tree every year being serious though the UK never directly profiited from this sale and had little to do with it because Norway can sell it to whomever they wish ( free trade you can't beat it). Actually there is also no proof this was used in a bomb none what so ever.
Look I don't want to get into whole my stories bigger then yours situation but I have quoted the IAEA, a British MP who was involved and the BBC you have got the Hindu times writing a story that basically is saying we heard from a friend of a friend that so and so did this honestly who has posted more credible links?
Just out of curiosity when can we expect you to ditch this story and move on to another non event? and I must congratulate you this is the first time /I have seen you post the words nuclear, FOI and bomb without sticking Scotland in thier somewhere
lodgebo01 said this in post #6 : Have you read thye stroy that says Britain was not involved?
BBC may very wll have used FoI to get this story but it never made the televised news or any paper I read becuse it's a NON STORY it might be of interest in Oslo but we really don't care who Norway trades with as long as they keep sending Edinburgh that nice Christmas tree every year being serious though the UK never directly profiited from this sale and had little to do with it because Norway can sell it to whomever they wish ( free trade you can't beat it). Actually there is also no proof this was used in a bomb none what so ever.
Look I don't want to get into whole my stories bigger then yours situation but I have quoted the IAEA, a British MP who was involved and the BBC you have got the Hindu times writing a story that basically is saying we heard from a friend of a friend that so and so did this honestly who has posted more credible links?
Just out of curiosity when can we expect you to ditch this story and move on to another non event? and I must congratulate you this is the first time /I have seen you post the words nuclear, FOI and bomb without sticking Scotland in thier somewhere
This isn't about the bigger story. Its just information revealing Britain's " dirty secret" of helping another country develop its nuclear program.
The Hindu Times did not write a Enqire type of article as you imply. They wrote a legit, professional and well research piece.
The article mentions "Records obtain under Informmation Act" and " According to classified documents obtain bt the BBC under the FOI Act " before giving its information :
- "Britain helped Isreal with its secret nuclear program in the 1960s by supplying it small but significant quantities of plutonium despite warnings that it would make a 'material contribution to an Israeli nuclear program"
- Britain sold Israel heavy water and tried to cover up its role
- Britain's Ministry of Technology made a (Iran contra) type of deal with Isreal despite opposition from Tony Benn
- The classified documents were push through by a senior servant Micheal Micheals
This is all we know. Should we not agree with information from clasified documents?
This isn't about the bigger story. Its just information revealing Britain's " dirty secret" of helping another country develop its nuclear program.
Not according to the EU or IAEA that sgould be good enough for you but of couse it won't be. ALso ths is just like the lsave trade you refuse to blame other or main players in this case Norway where is your sondemanrtion toward them? well where is it?. Lets be honest Malcolm if this deal had happend to say give Australia a nuke you would have been less outraged everyone here knows your view in Israel and that is where the problem lies.
The Hindu Times did not write a Enqire type of article as you imply. They wrote a legit, professional and well research piece.
They plagarised work that the BBC did it happens all the time in the media but that does not make it a legit piece of work and weel researched come on they went on the BBC website and used a story they found there .
The article mentions "Records obtain under Informmation Act" and " According to classified documents obtain bt the BBC under the FOI Act " before giving its information :
- "Britain helped Isreal with its secret nuclear program in the 1960s by supplying it small but significant quantities of plutonium despite warnings that it would make a 'material contribution to an Israeli nuclear program"
- Britain sold Israel heavy water and tried to cover up its role
- Britain's Ministry of Technology made a (Iran contra) type of deal with Isreal despite opposition from Tony Benn
- The classified documents were push through by a senior servant Micheal Micheals
This is all we know. Should we not agree with information from clasified documents?
Read the link I posted because all that is explained and I ano going back over it here.
Read the link I posted because all that is explained and I ano going back over it here.
My friends from Isreal would disagree with your Israeli OPINION (agenda) that you are trying to stick me with.
Its obvious your (over) patriotism is going to keep you "blind to the facts" and stay in denial of reality.
Lodgebo their is nothing wrong with changing your position on issues. We are not robots. Seeing things differently after seeing new informatin on an issue is a gift we have as humans.
My friends from Isreal would disagree with your Israeli OPINION (agenda) that you are trying to stick me with.
Really you have friends well maybe you should show some of your friends a few of your posts about Israel and see how friendly they are after that, start with the post about how you blamed Israel for the De Menezies shooting.
Its obvious your (over) patriotism is going to keep you "blind to the facts" and stay in denial of reality.
Ok like I said before on other isuues my country is not perfect and it has made mistakes and FYI when my country does something I disagree with I am one of the first ones to try and pull those concerned up on it.
This story however is a non issue that the UK had little involvement in ( you still have not criticised Norway yet, why is that?).
You can use the patriotic bulls**t arguement but it won't wash because it's not true if I was a patriot and the UK had been the main player then I would be angry.
The fact is that the population of the UK is nearly 70 million there aere many pressure groups about nuclear weapons and the situation in Israel, we have political parties that could have used this for point scoring, we are answerable to the UN, EU and IAEA and the outcry has been minimal you think if we had done something wrong in the past or the present there would have been some kind of outcry or backlash and there has not been by anyone or any group or organisation why do you think that is?
Lodgebo their is nothing wrong with changing your position on issues. We are not robots. Seeing things differently after seeing new informatin on an issue is a gift we have as humans.
Really seem like you were not born with that gift. I won't change my position on this story because I know what happend and I think I will stick with government and the IAEA on this isuue.
Really seem like you were not born with that gift. I won't change my position on this story because I know what happend and I think I will stick with government and the IAEA on this isuue.
Cause we don't live in the U.K. and we are not in a position to know "what (actually) happened" .
We will stick with a major newspaper article that has a the sentence " According to classified documents obtain from the FOI Act.." as source for this issue.
Norway or the IAEA is mention in the classified documents. This is new info you have discovered.
Its good you honor IAEA descions on nuclear issues
Thats why I posted the link to explain the Norways role. WE bought the hard water fromn Norway but never used it so we sold it back to Norway, Norway then sold it to Isarel before it could be sent back to Norway so the hard water left British ports as a Norwegian sale to Israel. We nevere profited fromthe sale between Norway and Israel.
To put it Simple this is the route of the hard water
Norway ---- Britain ------ Norway ----- Israel and when it got to Israel it went straight into that nice nuclear facility the French built for them.
lodgebo01 said this in post #12 : Thats why I posted the link to explain the Norways role. WE bought the hard water fromn Norway but never used it so we sold it back to Norway, Norway then sold it to Isarel before it could be sent back to Norway so the hard water left British ports as a Norwegian sale to Israel. We nevere profited fromthe sale between Norway and Israel.
To put it Simple this is the route of the hard water
Norway ---- Britain ------ Norway ----- Israel and when it got to Israel it went straight into that nice nuclear facility the French built for them.
Your link doesn't explain why Norway ( or any of your story) wasn't documented in an official CLASSIFIED DOCUMENT obtain by the BBC.
As you know, the only purpose of a classified document is to document FAcTs
As you know, Isreal can influence the media. So new info that the media now discovers that trys to change the story is not new and can be expected.
Well who knows why it is not in the FOI document either it wasn't deemed important enough to document not every country documents all sales especially amongst allies and this was not so much a sale as a buyback. Mayber the information is readily available and therefore not subject to FOI or maybe it's on another FOI file. The fact that the UK governemnt were willing to openly talk about the sale suggest to me that it is readily available info and that people have overlooked that.
Israel influences the media ooooooooooookkkk however saying they bought it from Norway or from the UK does not change the fact they got the heavy water does it? It's the same as the nuclear facility that they built with help from the French.
lodgebo01 said this in post #14 : Well who knows why it is not in the FOI document either it wasn't deemed important enough to document not every country documents all sales especially amongst allies and this was not so much a sale as a buyback. Mayber the information is readily available and therefore not subject to FOI or maybe it's on another FOI file. The fact that the UK governemnt were willing to openly talk about the sale suggest to me that it is readily available info and that people have overlooked that.
Israel influences the media ooooooooooookkkk however saying they bought it from Norway or from the UK does not change the fact they got the heavy water does it? It's the same as the nuclear facility that they built with help from the French.
No gov CLASSIFIED DOCUMENT ( not FOI file) would leave out Norway if they were this they were involve in scandel like you claim.
The article claims U.K. was involve in the building of Isreal's nuclear program and uses classfied documents obtain from BBC using FOI act.
Heavy water is not the issue as your trying to spin it to be.
Is the "dirty secret" true?Was U.K. invovled in building another country's nuclear program? [ can you answer questions base on info you know?]
11-17-2007 01:22 AM
well maybe you should show some of your friends a few of your posts about Israel and see how friendly they are after that, start with the post about how you blamed Israel for the De Menezies shooting. 
