Hamas fighters launched a fierce offensive on Gaza City Wednesday, firing mortars and rockets at Fatah's main security bases and the president's compound as the Islamic group appeared close to taking control of the entire Gaza Strip.
With fighting raging on rooftops and streets in nearly all corners of Gaza, residents huddled in fear in their homes….
….Fayez Abu Taha, 45, a businessman in the southern town of Rafah, said he was trapped in his apartment building with his family after Hamas fighters took over a nearby rooftop and Fatah responded by taking over the roof of his building.
"I don't know what they are battling for now," he said. "I can see the bullets flying from my windows. Coming and going."
At least 15 people were killed in fighting Wednesday, bringing the total in four days of infighting to nearly 60……
Governor Bush on Kosovo war exit strategy in 99 ” Victory means exit strategy, and it's important for the President to explain to us what the exit strategy is."
President Bush on Iraq war exit strategy from 2003 to 2008. “ “
They will kill each other for the right to kill Israelis. Sad
Governor Bush on Kosovo war exit strategy in 99 ” Victory means exit strategy, and it's important for the President to explain to us what the exit strategy is."
President Bush on Iraq war exit strategy from 2003 to 2008. “ “
Isn't what has happened in Gaza exactly what many people predicted?
If you squeeze the Palestinians in Gaza to breaking point, and just watch as the place starts to crumble, then don't even pretend to be surprised when the group that rises to the top of the squalid mess is worse than the one that was there before.
Similarly in Lebanon, which had been moving in a positive direction for years, Israel bomb the place, bringing chaos and destruction, with the ludicrous hope this will showhow lead to a positive outcome. What we get instead is even more violence, and the rise and strengthening of the very people the bombing was suppossed to destroy - Hezbollah.
And of course, then there's Iraq. Sprinkle in a little bit of "shock and awe", stand back, cross your fingers, and it won't be long before Iraq first, and then the whole of the Middle East is eating burgers, baseball caps, and wearing bluejeans.
Point taken but history says these very regions you’re blaming the US and Israel for bringing violence has always seen violence by those who are already there. Lebanon fought a brutal battle during the 70s & 80s between Christians and Muslims. Iraq and Iran fought a brutal war, not to mention the killings Saddam committed during his reign. No one has killed more Muslims than Muslims but it’s always justified by some absurd words of a lunatic.
While you can fault Israel for a bad decision, another could view it this way. As long as Hezbollah was running a country within a country where they could hurdle bombs into Israel unprovoked at will, things were fine. Now that there’s no refuge for these groups because of Israel’s campaign, violence ensues within. Same can be said about Iraq.
What we see in Lebanon is another prime examples of what I believe are the hypocrisies of the Arab/Muslim world. Again, the Palestinians are suffering directly because of their decisions by fighting within their camps.
Furthermore, Palestinians aren’t allow to seek jobs, go to schools nor seek medical attention within these same communities that claim Israel treats them so badly. They aren’t even allowed to marry outside of their own yet Hezbollah, Iran and others claim that their occasional attacks on Israel are because of their treatments of Palestinians.
Hamas will never give full recognition to Israel, ever. You throw an outfit like them in charge of your government and you’ll get exactly what we see today, chaos.
Governor Bush on Kosovo war exit strategy in 99 ” Victory means exit strategy, and it's important for the President to explain to us what the exit strategy is."
President Bush on Iraq war exit strategy from 2003 to 2008. “ “
The one guy I feel sorry for is Abbas, say what you want about him but he is a moderate and he is the preferred leader in the eyes of the international community ( including Israel) and he has tried to quell the infighting that has happend in Palestine in the past yet HAMAS always find ways of undermining him and wrecking any progress he makes. Take two recent incidents HAMAS have blamed Abbas, the US and of course Israel for the cuts in aid and it is because of them that aid has been stopped and then there is the kidnapping of Alan Johnston. Abbas, people in Fatah and prominent Palestinians have campaigned for his release if HAMAS does the same there is a greater chance that Mr Johnston would be released but so far they have failed.
Abbas must wake up every day and ask why he bothers to bang his head against the brick wall that is HAMAS, hell he has just a few hiours had to dissolve the Parliment because of these guys.
What I'm saying is that our interference in the region has, far from improving the situation, actually made it worse. Something is clearly wrong with a Middle Eastern policy that is strengthening the militant hold on power all over the region.
Ignoring Hamas and hoping they would go away has proved in such a short time to be a disastrous policy. I am not the least bit surprised.
The US must admit and take some blame for what's happened in Gaza. They armed and funded Fatah hoping they would wipe out the democratically elected party. Now what??
Well we should remember that Fatah needed to be armed because the democratically elected party was better armed that the security services and wanted ti wipe them out.
The fact is you can blame the US all you want but this would have kicked off regardless. Also the US and the international community as whole has not ignored HAMAS as such, this situation is HAMAS' own doing they want to be recognised and accepted then they know what they have to do and they won't do it. The ball is in thier court and if they want to keep playing then they know what the have to do.
The US only brought out the underlying. Hamas has been a disaster for the Palestinians and set back years of progress, no doubtedly urged on by the likes of those in Iran and Syria.
I just believe h@ts that everything that goes wrong in that region is blamed on the US and Israel. This was certainly done long before any attack on Iraq or Lebanon.
Abbas was the last hope for lasting peace although he had a pretty steep hill to climb. There are too many people in that region that will never accept peace and spew the rhetoric to support this claim.
Blaming the US & Israel is like the bank robber or murderer blaming the system for his own despicable actions. How anyone could have lent legitimacy to a Hamas led government defies logic. If anyone cannot see where the problems in that region lie right now, they are hopelessly nearsighted.
Governor Bush on Kosovo war exit strategy in 99 ” Victory means exit strategy, and it's important for the President to explain to us what the exit strategy is."
President Bush on Iraq war exit strategy from 2003 to 2008. “ “
lodgebo said this in post #8 :
Well we should remember that Fatah needed to be armed because the democratically elected party was better armed that the security services and wanted ti wipe them out.
We say we wanted democracy in the Middle East, but then refused to engage with the party the Palastinian's chose to lead them. Disaster. Hamas offered a truce. Again we ignored them - for what good, where has it got us? One place - Hamas' violent takeover of Gaza!
We sat back while Gaza spiraled out of control, economically and politicaly. Now Hamas control Gaza and are no doubt more entrenched, more militant, more angry and less willing to talk or offer anything BUT violence.
quote:
The fact is you can blame the US all you want but this would have kicked off regardless.
If you think things are that hopeless what are we actually doing there?
quote:
Also the US and the international community as whole has not ignored HAMAS as such, this situation is HAMAS' own doing they want to be recognised and accepted then they know what they have to do and they won't do it. The ball is in thier court and if they want to keep playing then they know what the have to do.
What you are saying is Israel, supported by the US, are going to be perpetually at war with the Palestinians because Hamas refuse to formally recognise a nation that has for decades oppressed and controlled them. You expect the impossible.
oneofpeace said this in post #9 :
The US only brought out the underlying. Hamas has been a disaster for the Palestinians and set back years of progress, no doubtedly urged on by the likes of those in Iran and Syria.
Disaster or not, Hamas were elected. We have not helped the situation. On the contrary, what we have done has made things worse, or even inevitable.
quote:
I just believe h@ts that everything that goes wrong in that region is blamed on the US and Israel. This was certainly done long before any attack on Iraq or Lebanon.
I keep hearing that the only country that can broker a peace deal in the middle east is the US. But Bush has done nothing, and is an absolute disaster in the Middle East, as he's been in so many other things.
quote:
There are too many people in that region that will never accept peace and spew the rhetoric to support this claim.
You're absolutely right, but these "many people" lie on both sides of the conflict.
quote:
How anyone could have lent legitimacy to a Hamas led government defies logic.
And no-one did, which in it's own way helped lead to what we see today.
quote:
If anyone cannot see where the problems in that region lie right now, they are hopelessly nearsighted.
Okay how about we continue with your "logical" plan of ignoring Hamas because clearly that's going to work
We say we wanted democracy in the Middle East, but then refused to engage with the party the Palastinian's chose to lead them.
HAMAS knew from the outset of the election that if they continued thier campaign to destroy Israel they would be shunned by the international community and they kept on the same path.
Of course the west would like democracy all over the world and yes we activley encourage it but that does not mean we have to engage with them does it? Look at the UK governemnt we won't deal with Mugabe and he's democratically elected ( maybe) hell Tony Blair will not engage with the Scottish first minister it's all down to morals and belifs and if you are against the destruction of the state of Israel you cannot seriously engage with a group that is for it.
Also I notice you are on your blame the US for everything campaign again it is worth noting that you will struggle to find a western government that supports Hamas let alone one that is still funding Palestine because of them so it's not soley a US thing here, maybe you should ask yourself why that is?
Disaster. Hamas offered a truce. Again we ignored them - for what good, where has it got us? One place - Hamas' violent takeover of Gaza!
It was no more a truce then I am a supermodel it was a weak non commital non long term piece of BS that was a waste of good ink. The fact is that HAMAS has to cease violnece against and respect Israels right to exsist. It has to permenent and non negotiable HAMAS have not yet done that
We sat back while Gaza spiraled out of control, economically and politicaly. Now Hamas control Gaza and are no doubt more entrenched, more militant, more angry and less willing to talk or offer anything BUT violence.
Oh come in it spiralled out of control because of HAMAS nothing we could have done would have changed that. They caused it nobody else with thier bigotry and Nazi like principles. You know the problem with HAMAS h@ts? it's in your post they want to blame everybody but themselves plain and simple.
If you think things are that hopeless what are we actually doing there?
Because there are good people in Palestine lots and lots of them who only want a life of peace, people like Abbas and his party people who are accepted by the world community and who does not want to destroy other nations. Has it ever occured to you that if Abbas was given a chance and could take full power he may be the key to peace in the ME.
What you are saying is Israel, supported by the US, are going to be perpetually at war with the Palestinians because Hamas refuse to formally recognise a nation that has for decades oppressed and controlled them. You expect the impossible.
Well if you live next to somebody that threatens your lfe day in day out what can you expect? I notice again this blame somebody else mentality, Israeal actions have been far from perfect there is little disagreement about that everywhere ( except the US) but in more recent times the attacks have been in retaliation and Isreal has a right to defend itself as any country does.
The fact is that all this oppresion you talk of is not right but a lot of it will go is the rocket and suicide attacks stop and that can only happen if the parties talk and that can only happen if HAMAS recognises Israels right to exsist and we know HAMAS won't do that so they are making life harder for the Palestinans.
lodgebo said this in post #12 :
Look at the UK governemnt we won't deal with Mugabe and he's democratically elected ( maybe) hell Tony Blair will not engage with the Scottish first minister
The MASSIVE difference is the world-wide consequences of allowing this particular decades old conflict to fester. We should either get out, or do something that might help the situation. At the moment we're doing neither.
quote:
It was no more a truce then I am a supermodel it was a weak non commital non long term piece of BS that was a waste of good ink.
Whatever kind of offer it was, it was ignored. If Hamas offer another cease fire are you going to say the same, and the next time and every time?
quote:
Because there are good people in Palestine lots and lots of them who only want a life of peace, people like Abbas and his party people who are accepted by the world community and who does not want to destroy other nations.
You seem to forget that it was these good people you talk about who voted for Hamas to lead them, and we stung them for it, using the same old tired rhetoric about the need for Hamas to "recognise" the very people who have been occupying them for decades. We know the answer before we even ask the question because Hamas will never use the terms we are telling them to use. It's a simple as that, and if you don't think there is ever going to be an alternative, then we might as well leave the region right now.
The TV network news that I have seen on this latest development almost seems to be treating it as a good thing. It is very hard to detect exactly what their take on it is.
The MASSIVE difference is the world-wide consequences of allowing this particular decades old conflict to fester. We should either get out, or do something that might help the situation. At the moment we're doing neither.
You know it will be extremly difficult to get out when we are not in. The fact is we can only do what every western country and some major ME players are doing and that is to condemm HAMAS and give support to Fatah the only thing that could help is the destruction of HAMAS and AL Axa Martyrs Brigade have said they are going to do that.
Whatever kind of offer it was, it was ignored. If Hamas offer another cease fire are you going to say the same, and the next time and every time?
You know why it was ingored because it did not meet the requirements. If HAMAS mett what most people consider to be simplr requirements then talks will begin but until such time they will be ignored. We cannot afford to waste everyones time with fake, time stalling half assed offers we need everything at once guarnteed.
You seem to forget that it was these good people you talk about who voted for Hamas to lead them, and we stung them for it, using the same old tired rhetoric about the need for Hamas to "recognise" the very people who have been occupying them for decades. We know the answer before we even ask the question because Hamas will never use the terms we are telling them to use. It's a simple as that, and if you don't think there is ever going to be an alternative, then we might as well leave the region right now.
HAMAS did not win by an massive majority in fact there are a lot of Fatah supporters out in Palestine who fear for thier lives so don't assume that HAMAS have 100% support in fact thier support may actually have dropped in the last few days.
H@ts what exactly is YOUR idea talk to and negotioate with a terror group that is intent on destroying a neighbour is that waht you think we should do? do you honestly think that talking to HAMAS will change thier position? what we do is support Fatah and Abbas and try and do somethinhg from that angle.
06-13-2007 09:19 PM
