This is directed to those of you who believe that the Bible is innerant, and without contradiction. I have heard it said many times that the Bible doesn't contradict itself, and at one time made that ridiculous claim myself.
Matthew 28:1, 8-10
1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre
8 And they departed quickly from the sepulchre with fear and great joy; and did run to bring his disciples word.
9 And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.
10 Then said Jesus unto them, Be not afraid: go tell my brethren that they go into Galilee, and there shall they see me.
John 20:1-2
1 The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.
2 Then she runneth, and cometh to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple, whom Jesus loved, and saith unto them, They have taken away the LORD out of the sepulchre, and we know not where they have laid him.
If Matthew clearly says that the women met Jesus as they were leaving the tomb, why in John would Mary have told the disciples that they don't know where they took his body?
There are many more, but for the interest of time I thought this would be sufficient. I was hoping that someone could explain this contrdiction from the viewpoint that the Bible that you are holding in your hand is without error.
Mary didn't say that to the disciples, she said it to 2 angels after Simon Peter and the other disciple left to go back to their homes. It says so in John 20:10 - 13. And in John 20:14 it goes on to describe what happened and how she met Jesus at the tomb.
Not sure I think the bible is without error, as it's been translated several times and there are most likely errors or inconsistencies in translation, but I think I helped answer your question on this one.
Your first sentence is flawed... John 20:2 is as clear as it gets that she met Peter and John (presumably) and tells them that they have taken the body... yes you are right that she says that in verse 13, that is just her saying it a second time... the first time being when she told the disciples.
Matthew is clear that the women met Jesus before they encountered the disciples. Therefore knowing that he is risen.
John is clear that the first time Mary encounters the disciples she is distraut for not knowing where his body is.
After Jesus’ burial, Mary Magdalene and other women went to prepare spices and perfumed oil before the Sabbath began at sundown. Then following the Sabbath, at the break of dawn, on the first day of the week, Mary and the other women brought the perfumed oil to the tomb. (Mt 28:1; Mr 15:47; 16:1,_2; Lu 23:55,_56; 24:1) When Mary saw the tomb was open and apparently empty, she rushed off to tell the startling news to Peter and John, who ran to the tomb. (Joh 20:1-4) By the time Mary got back to the tomb, Peter and John had left, and it was now that she checked inside and was stunned at seeing two angels in white. Then she turned back and saw Jesus standing. Thinking him to be the gardener, she asked where the body was, that she might care for it. When he replied “Mary!” his identity was immediately revealed to her and she impulsively embraced him, exclaiming, “Rab·bo´ni!
What I am saying is that the four gospel accounts (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John) taken together draw a picture of what happened.
The real purpose of these versus’ is not to prove who saw who first, but to show that Jesus was in fact resurrected.
If the gospels are in fact eye witness accounts of real events, then their stories will not be incompatible, and while I am not trying to make an arguement of who saw who first, I am saying that there are many who claim the Bible has divine authorship and as such it has no contradictions... I understand that all the gospels should be taken together so you can get all the pieces of the puzzle, so to speak, but when taken together and the stories are different, while still being inspired, someone is wrong...
I am not saying that this one passage discrepency will/should unravel Christianity, what I am suggesting is that the ones who claim the Bible as we have it is without error need to reconsider that stance and be intellectually hoest with themselves.
Matthew and John in the first verse of their respective accounts are reporting the same thing. Matthew 28:2 goes on to the point where Mary leaves to tell the disciples (the REST of the disciples, as there were at least 10 who were not present with Simon Peter and presumably John) that Jesus was resurrected. However, John 20:2 goes into more detail about what happens between the time Mary sees the opened sepulchre, and when she leaves to tell the other disciples. John 20:2-9 talk about how she ran to tell Simon Peter and presumably John that Jesus was taken out of the tomb and she doesn't know where he was taken to. At that point, she only said that to 2 of the disciples, and this was obviously BEFORE she spoke with the 2 angels and Jesus himself.
If you're thinking that the timelines in between each of the verses in the different accounts of that incident are equivalent, that might be what's keeping you from seeing what I was referring to.
Hope this made more sense. One account may go into more detail here, while another will go into more detail there. Overlap them and you begin to see the whole picture more clearly, like the police try to do when they get a bunch of witness statements. The more statements they get, the better they can identify the timelines and events that led up to whatever incident they are investigating. Same thing applies to the gospels, and the different accounts of Jesus' death and resurrection.
Hello... Hope you guys are all well, I've been so busy for ages that I have'nt posted in a long time, but good to see every time I come back here there is some form of good debate taking place, even though a lot of it has been repeated over and over again. But I guess that's the point of IN Review so that when new people join they can also have there questions answered.
Now in relation to Jesus being seen outside of the tomb by Mary magdalene, that in itself is a good question.
Now in Matthew there is more detail of the incident itself, and I think it explains much better about Jesus being risen.
Now I shall paste the verses in more detail below and from it we can see it does not really speak of Jesus being risen up into heaven, but him having risen back to life when everyone thought he had died.
Matthew 28
1In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.
2And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.
3His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow:
4And for fear of him the keepers did shake, and became as dead men.
5And the angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified.
6He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay.
7And go quickly, and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead; and, behold, he goeth before you into Galilee; there shall ye see him: lo, I have told you.
8And they departed quickly from the sepulchre with fear and great joy; and did run to bring his disciples word.
9And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.
10Then said Jesus unto them, Be not afraid: go tell my brethren that they go into Galilee, and there shall they see me.
11Now when they were going, behold, some of the watch came into the city, and shewed unto the chief priests all the things that were done.
12And when they were assembled with the elders, and had taken counsel, they gave large money unto the soldiers,
13Saying, Say ye, His disciples came by night, and stole him away while we slept.
14And if this come to the governor's ears, we will persuade him, and secure you.
15So they took the money, and did as they were taught: and this saying is commonly reported among the Jews until this day.
Now from reading the above it seems to me that Jesus did not die on the cross but was still alive, and when he came out the tomb not only did his disciples see him but so did the jews that wanted to persecute him.
So it seems quite clear that Jesus was in his physical form and walking around not dead but alive. Therefore Jesus being risen into heaven after being put on the cross does not sit right with me.
First hand information is always better then second hand information....
Would you wear someone elses worn out shoes???
I'm not sure I understand it either. Possibly when he ascended to heaven, he left his physical body? Unless the resurrection included a transformation of his body. The angels apparently can take physical form when necessary, so possibly the resurrection included a transformation allowing Jesus to take back up his full power, allowing him to ascened to heaven even while in physical form? I guess that aspect can only be speculation...
I don't believe that these are speaking about the same encounter... that Matthew just fast forwarded, and John is telling a little more detail.
For starters in John, Jesus tells them that they can not touch him because he has not yet ascended, but in Matthew Jesus allows them to hold him by the feet.
Secondly if this is talking about the same encounter not only does the text reference only Mary in John, and more than just Mary in Matthew.
Third in Matthew the text says that the angel the women talk just rolled away the stone, so it looks like that is in fact an earlier encounter, and that he didn't just fast forward to John 12
Lastly the circumstances of the encounter are different, and the words spoke, the number of angels, the location of the meeting with Jesus...
These gospels were written as separate accounts, the fact that it was going to be compiled into a book was a long way off. Like was said police will gather all the stories to get the big picture, but they also realize that if they are getting different and conflicting stories then someone is wrong...
The only way that I can see this referencing the same accounts is if you have a preconcluded idea that the Bible doesn't contradict itself, if you approach it with the thought that these accounts must coincide, then you can look past anything, but read it as it was originally written one separate account, and it gives a different feeling to it.
Well 1young11 if I recall correctly you were yourself saying in the start of the thread that the bible has certain contradiction, and it was you yourself who quoted the two versus from John and Matthew, to show the contradictions.
Now it is strange that all of a sudden you are saying that they are both talking about different events because, in order to contradict something it has to be talking about the same thing.
So please make a decision on what your main point was. In relation to what I have posted I can clearly say reading the two verses that they are both talking about the same event.
First hand information is always better then second hand information....
Would you wear someone elses worn out shoes???
I think they are talking about the same events too. Now, if you want to say that the incident about reaching for Jesus is contradictory, I see a way that it wouldn't be that is based exactly on the two scriptures:
The disciples go and reach for Jesus' feet to worship him, and while they do this, Jesus tells them not to touch him, for he has not yet ascended to his father. One account says they made contact, the other doesn't specify, but rather suggests by the wording that they did NOT touch Jesus. Neither account seems to be wrong in my view. Just one expresses what could be CONSIDERED to be a contradictory statement, but is not CLEARLY contradictory. To be clearly contradictory, one would say they touched the feet of Jesus, and the other would CLEARLY say that they did NOT. "Touch me not" could be interpretted as "Let go of me". It can be said after a person is already touching another.
So again, while one account may focus on one aspect of an event, and not so much on another, a different account may fill in some unanswered questions in one area while being vague in another. In anycase, their basic stories are the same for the most part, so the "witness accounts" we're investigating DO paint the same picture. Therefore, the story as a whole is accurate.
We tend to forget that while verses in the bible may seem to be contradictory, the main messages that are presented in the bible aren't. That's the message that we are supposed to be getting from the bible. That's the message that is infallible. If we get caught up in searching for where a verse doesn't match up with another verse, then we will sometimes forget to step back and see the underlying message that comes to us when we examine the bible AS A WHOLE. It's like looking at two pixels of a picture, and forgetting about the beauty of the picture itself.
I think what it is is that Matthew and John were not there to witness this event firsthand, so there was probably some "filling-in-the-blanks," some "poetic license" going on there.
of course that may mean the Bible isn't infallible.
I personally believe the Bible is inspired by God but written down by the hands of men and so is still susceptable to error (literary error specifically).
Raven200 sorry I suppose that it is a bit confusing... I was referring to the assertion that John just covers in more detail, let me rephrase...
the claim was that the first verses in Matthew 28, John 20 were the same thing, and then Matthew 28:2 skips to where the women and the two disciples go to the tomb from John 20:12. And that when Mary sees that the tomb is empty in John 20:2 and runs to tell the disciples, that happened before Matthew 28:2, it was just not recorded in Matthew.
My belief is that the first 10 verses of Matthew are referring to the first time that the women arrived at the tomb, and that the first 2 verses of John are also talking about the same event, and therefore the different accounts of the womens' reactions are contradictory.
To Deka00, and Sieradaddy, I understand your point that the Bible as a whole paints the same picture, and it is the overall story that is inspired, but the thread was challenging the people who believe that the words that we have, say for example the king James Version Bible, are inspired and without contradiction.
03-15-2007 01:42 PM
