I have recently taken an interest in the American Civil War.
Mainly, it has to be said, because of a history channel documentory of the war that I watched which saw the USA General Chase the CSA General across Verginia and failing to catch him or out-manouver the CSA General until he had total numerical superiority.
It seems to me that the American Civil war can be described, in the Military sense, by four names, Ulysses .S. Grant, Abraham Lincoln, Robert .E. Lee and Thomas .J. 'Stonewall' Jackson.
Allow me to explain. Abraham Lincoln was the man who started the war. His hand was forced by the Northern States who would not stand for secession or the creation of the Confederate States of America and they would not allow the Slave trade to run it's course in the South so the only alternative was War.
Lincoln was responsible for the appointment of the Commanders of the Army of the Patomac. He however failed to find an able and adventurous leader of that Army until Ulysses .S. Grant. Instead he had cautious Generals who were good at organising but bad at commanding.
Next Ulysses .S. Grant. General Grant was the Northern States best commander and basically wasted his talents in the West when he could have locked horns with Robert .E. Lee in the East. He eventually managed to nullify the threat of Robert .E. Lee's Army of North Virginia but could not manage it until he totally outnumbered Lee's Army. That is not to take away the fact that Grant's defeat of Lee was efectively the end of the War.
Robert .E. Lee was undoubtably the best military minded General in the whole of America at the time. He made mistakes yes but he was also let down by his subordinates, 'Jeb' Stuart in patricular. Robert .E. Lee is the greatest General that America ever produced not to be widely known about in Europe. He was, at the time, the most respected officer in America and proved to be the best stratagist of the war. His name is linked with lost causes and honor and galantry in defeat.
However despite these three men's influence of the war what the outcome hinged on was Thomas .J. 'Stonewall' Jackson.
'Stonewall' Jackson was the best field commander of the entire war and perhap the best field commander in American History. He was adventurous, audatious, cunning, excentric and most importantly quick to act. He was the only Confederate commander capable of following General Lee's orders to the letter and the only Confederate Commander capable of winning the war except for Lee.
General Lee on his own was formidable, Jackson and Lee together were unbeatable.
Had 'Stonewall' Jackson not died at Chancellorsville than I have no doubt that the war would have had a different outcome. You see, as good as General Longstreet was, nobody could have replace 'Stonewall' Jackson.
However what I have failed to understand while reshearching the American Civil War is why the Confederacy is more appealing to a neutral than the USA.
I know that I am naturally drawn to the better military side, and that was definately the confederacy. But I still dont understand why most people are drawn to the Confederacy rather than the USA.
Could somebody explain this for me?
"there's only one way to win a war: shout, shout, and shout again!" - The Duke of Wellington ((Blackadder - Stephen Fry))
I don't know that Americans are more drawn to the Confederacy. There is more sympathy and regard in southern states but I believe the country as a whole doesn't hold the Confederacy in high regard.
Well really America isn't a neutral party is it? It was the battle feild. What I meant was the Europeans and what not.
I mean Bernard Cornwell for instance. A British Author living in America, Author of the 'Sharpe' series, has written four novels of the Civil war and he choose to write it from the confederacy's point of view. There were movies made about the American Civil war, called 'Gettysburg' and 'Gods and Generals' both are mainly of the confederacy but also have bits of the union.
The Confederacy appeals to foreign neutral country more than America itself. I don't know why. Perhaps some Americans still resent that they had to go to war to change the south, perhaps some of the humiliation still remains from some of the humiliating defeats the south enforced on the north.
What ever the reason is I don't know but it seems that neutral parties have a fondness to the south over the north.
Is it the fact that the Confederacy was the underdog facing the industrial might of the north? is it the way in which the military conducted itself against superior numbers and better weapons? or is it just the Stonewall Jackson Factor ?
((P.S. was my summary of the four important men in the war in my first post in this thread alright or was it completely off? I'd like to know.))
"there's only one way to win a war: shout, shout, and shout again!" - The Duke of Wellington ((Blackadder - Stephen Fry))
I am not a Civil War authority although I am a huge history enthusiast. Initially I would figure European nations would be more interested in the Confederacy because of historical irony perhaps. The United States were British Colonies less than a century before and now it was torn apart. Or it could be one of those 'what-if' factors. Surely the world as we know it would be radically different if the South had won or a foreign country intervened.
I'd have to give the four names you mentioned some thought, but you have to add President of the Conderate States Jefferson Davis as sure as you have President Lincoln. As for the generals, it was Grant vs. Lee and everyone else. But you were pretty right on though in who you mentioned. Jackson was brilliant, but friendly fire ended his life something like halfway through the war. If he had lived who knows how everything would have gone down.
I lived in "Lee county", in Florida, named after the General. And I had a great great Ancestor, I think he was a great great grandfather, or a brother of a grandfather, a Whidden, that fought in the Civil War for the South.
If you talk about the civil war in the South, it was not about Slavery, but about how the North wanted to control the South unfairly.
(Which is partially true, but partially false.)
Like W.T. said above, the war was about both. Slavery and the North wanting to preserve the Union.
If I went back in time, I would have to fight for the Union. But I do have a certain "romanticism for the South." Lee was an excellent General, and they all believed they were on the right side of a cause. It would have been a horrible time to be alive, as it was truly "brother against brother". Not all people in the South fought for the South, and not all the North fought for the North. Some joined the opposite sides army. It was a sad time for everyone.
In hindsight, with the benefit of history, I'm glad the North won, as many Southerners will admit. But we still like the Rebel Flag, and the fact we are Southern, it's one of those heritage things.
It is worth mentioning that had Britain interveened, despite the USA's warnings, the USA's navy would have been blasted out of the water by the biggest and most powerfull navy in the world at the time and the Confederacy would have gotten money, weapons, suplies and perhaps the aid of a European superpower.
France I believe attempted to do something to help the confederacy but were stopped in Mexico.
These two European superpowers could have interveened becuase of the shortage of cotton from the south. However Britain didn't need cotton to keep it's industry rolling becuase she was as she is now the biggest trade country in the world.
France however relied heavily on American cotton for it's industry so they were more inclined to help the Confederacy than Britain.
It is also worth noting, just for the hell of it, that Virginia produced the greatest generals in American history up to that time. George Washington, Robert . E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson.
I think, in the long run, Jefferson Davis' biggest impact on the war was replacing the injured General Johnston with Robert .E. Lee as commander of the Army of North Virginia. Other than that he was rarely invovled in Confederacy Military matters. I believe that alot people in the confederacy states of America didn't like Davis anyway.
I would like to name a few Generals in the American Civil war for your concideration as to their importance to the war.
Confederacy:
P.G.T Beauregard
Braxton Bragg
Joe Johnston
James Longstreet
John Bell Hood
A.P. Hill
JEB Stuart
U.S.A:
George .B. McClellan
Irvin McDowell
John Pope
Ambrose .E. Burnside
George Meade
Joseph Hooker
"there's only one way to win a war: shout, shout, and shout again!" - The Duke of Wellington ((Blackadder - Stephen Fry))
Sadly, I have never really researched it. I don't know who was a good general and who was not. I know Lee is still well regarded in the South, as is Stonewall Jackson.
They are considered hero's of old, in a "nostalgic" way. The other generals, I dont' think most know of them, unless they are civil war buffs, and all into the minutia of the whole thing.
I can't speak for every Southerner, there are still some pissed off we lost the war, but most I had contact with, including myself, love the U.S. of A., and see the civil war as something so long ago and far away, it's just fun to take pride in the Southern heritage and fly the Rebel Flag, and talk "rebel", but it's in no way serious.
The serious people who are all bent out of shape about the war still, are mostly racists, and weirdo's.
I know that Sean Kelly once called my thoughts on the rebel flag "disgusting". But I don't think he understood the Southern way of thinking, how the rebel flag and southern heritage are more of a fun nostalgic trip than a form of racism and bigotry.
I'm English born and raised but given the opportunity I would far rather be a Scotsman in William Wallace or Robert the Bruces' army, or a Welsh man fighting with Owain Glendower. I am also, however, an Imperialist and a royalist and am proud of Britains old Empire.
I feel that Britain moved too quickly away from it's empire, became ashamed of it and severed too many ties at once. We still have a large commonwealth but it's not the same.
In some way I can connect with the South as they thought that the north was trying to control them and move them away from their prefered way of life. Regardless of whether the South had slave industry or not what mattered in this war was that the North thought themselves to be better than the South and thus wanted to South to concede to Northern rule.
Occaisonally, when looking back at History, something stirs inside you that make you long for those old days. Even in war you occaisonally want to go back to the honorable time when two armies face each other across a battle field. At least then you knew who you were killing or hurting rather than now when war can be fought over hundred of miles away.
A nostalgia comes over you when you see old things. For exaple Flags. I long to see the Union Jack fly proudly, fluttering in the wind over a finely tuned battlion in an Army. A proud army marching into a honorable war. I am not a war monger but I a proud of my herritage.
No doubt these a some feelings that the Southerners of America feel when they see the Rebel Flag. Songs are another thing that makes you long for older times. For exaple the Confedercy version of the song 'Tramp!Tramp!Tramp':
"In my prison cell I sit,
thinking, Mother, dear, of you,
and my happy Southern home so far away;
and my eyes they fill with tears
'spite of all that I can do,
though I try to cheer my comrades and be gay.
Tramp! Tramp! Tramp!
The boys are marching;
cheer up, comrades, they will come.
And beneath the stars and bars
we shall breathe the air again
of freemen in our own beloved home..
In the battle front we stood
when their fiercest charge they made,
and our soldiers by the thousands sank to die;
but before they reached our lines,
they were driven back dismayed,
and the "Rebel yell"went upward to the sky.
Tramp! Tramp! Tramp!
The boys are marching;
cheer up, comrades, they will come.
And beneath the stars and bars
we shall breathe the air again
of freemen in our own beloved home..
Now our great commander Lee
crosses broad potomac's stream,
and his legions marching Northward take their way.
On pennsylvania's roads
will their trusty muskets gleam,
and her iron hills shall echo to the fray.
Tramp! Tramp! Tramp!
The boys are marching;
cheer up, comrades, they will come.
And beneath the stars and bars
we shall breathe the air again
of freemen in our own beloved home..
In the cruel stockade-pen
dying slowly day by day,
for weary months we've waited all in vain;
but if God will speed the way
of our gallant boys in gray,
I shall see your face, dear Mother, yet again.
Tramp! Tramp! Tramp!
The boys are marching;
cheer up, comrades, they will come.
And beneath the stars and bars
we shall breathe the air again
of freemen in our own beloved home..
When I close my eyes in sleep,
all the dear ones 'round me come,
at night my little sister to me calls;
and mocking visions bring
all the warm delights of home,
while we freeze and starve in Northern prison walls.
Tramp! Tramp! Tramp!
The boys are marching;
cheer up, comrades, they will come.
And beneath the stars and bars
we shall breathe the air again
of freemen in our own beloved home..
So the weary days go by,
and we wonder as we sigh,
if with sight of home we'll never more be blessed.
Our hearts within us sink,
and we murmur, though we try
to leave it all with him who knowest best"
Such fanfare and glory and pride is throw into these songs that it draws you wanting to be in the army that marches to this song.
At least that is the feeling I get.
"there's only one way to win a war: shout, shout, and shout again!" - The Duke of Wellington ((Blackadder - Stephen Fry))
Aye. As long as it's a long time ago, and no one you know from real life was involved or hurt or maimed, it does become kind of nostalgic and glorious to imagine the battles and the heroism and the honor of it.
I went to Stonewall Jackson High School but you weren't allowed to wear a Rebel Flag there
for some odd reason, while the word "Ganya" was still just a thought-dropping in my head, I thought it'd only be four letters. But apparently it's five. yep.
Whidden said this in post #5 : If you talk about the civil war in the South, it was not about Slavery, but about how the North wanted to control the South unfairly.
See, I've always thought it may be something like this. Of course now that the North won and you guys have your United States and everything, that people will simply say "we did it for the slaves", but I find it hard to believe it was as simple (or altruistic) as that. That's why, though it's probably totally over-the-top in it's "Mussah, I'm so happy working fa' ya'" attitude, Gone With The Wind did give you a pretty good idea how some folk in the South were bound to be feeling.
"I'm for it so we can put Nuclear power plants up there, and then beam the power back to earth on a laser beam." ~ Whidden
The Civil War came down to power and money. Everything else is smoke and mirrors. There are facets of those two factors, of course, but you can truly break it down that way.
Growing up in Cali I can't speak to any Rebel angst over a war that happened about a century and a half ago. My suggestion to them would be to let it go, buy some Lincoln Logs and build a fort to hide your sorrows in.
My grandfather said he traced his ancestory to Robert E. Lee. He also drank a lot.
I have found, perhaps, a reason as to why Europeans look more kindly on the confederacy than the Union from the Civil war times.
When the Union invaded Virginia with John Pope's army, Pope gave his men free reign over the Virginians. His men could legally, as far as Washington was concerned, steal, rape plunder and pillage any southern Town or building. In this campaign the Shenandoah Valley was burnt
When Ulysses .S. Grant's forces advanced on Richmond they attacked towns that had mostly civilians and few soldiers, they destroyed these towns. They were ruthless but effective.
Robert .E. Lee's army however behaved like Gentlemen for the most part.
When they invaded the north before the battle of Antietam they did take supplies and equipment from the local towns but they payed for these things with what they could and did not try to hurt or steal from the locals.
It was a similar story when he invaded the north for the second time before Gettysburg.
Also, did you know that there was a cult of Lee in North America and Britain at the time?
"there's only one way to win a war: shout, shout, and shout again!" - The Duke of Wellington ((Blackadder - Stephen Fry))
07-27-2006 08:17 PM
