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fuscia is Away
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9th circut court in CA says Pledge unconstitutional post #1  quote:



SAN FRANCISCO, California (AP) -- A federal judge declared Wednesday that the reciting of the Pledge of Allegiance in public schools is unconstitutional, a decision that could potentially put the divisive issue back before the U.S. Supreme Court.

The case was brought by the same atheist whose previous battle against the words "under God" was rejected last year by the Supreme Court on procedural grounds.

U.S. District Judge Lawrence Karlton ruled that the pledge's reference to one nation "under God" violates school children's right to be "free from a coercive requirement to affirm God."

Karlton said he was bound by precedent of the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals, which in 2002 ruled in favor of Sacramento atheist Michael Newdow that the pledge is unconstitutional when recited in public schools.

The Supreme Court dismissed the case last year, saying Newdow lacked standing because he did not have custody of his elementary school daughter he sued on behalf of.

Newdow, an attorney and a medical doctor, filed an identical case on behalf of three unnamed parents and their children. Karlton said those families have the right to sue.

"Imagine every morning if the teachers had the children stand up, place their hands over their hearts, and say, 'We are one nation that denies God exists,"' Newdow said in an interview with AP Radio after the ruling.

"I think that everybody would not be sitting here saying, 'Oh, what harm is that.' They'd be furious. And that's exactly what goes on against atheists. And it shouldn't."

Karlton, ruling in Sacramento, said he would sign a restraining order preventing the recitation of the pledge at the Elk Grove Unified, Rio Linda and Elverta Joint Elementary school districts in Sacramento County, where the plaintiffs' children attend.

The order would not extend beyond those districts unless it is affirmed by the 9th Circuit, in which case it could apply to nine western states, or the Supreme Court, which would apply to all states.

The decision sets up another showdown over the pledge in schools, at a time when the the makeup of the Supreme Court is in flux.


Old Post 09-14-2005 11:13 PM
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post #2  quote:

I dont' see why they don't just let the ones who do not want to say the God part,

skip that part,

make them say the whole thing, but when it comes to that line about God,

let the atheists, other religions, etc. skip it, then pick it back up, on "with liberty and justice for all".


It would be easy to skip, and if they are OFFENDED because the other % of the class says "under God",

it will be good for them,

and teach them maturity, as they move on into the world and learn that everyone thinks different,

and yes, some peeps do believe in a God, and it's their country too.

Likewise, the God fearing right winger/left winger Christians, who do say, "under God",

will hear the silence of the atheists/other religions, etc. and learn maturity, and realize that other Americans do not see it like they do.


Everyone wins!!!


Old Post 09-15-2005 01:23 AM
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nikiTa
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post #3  quote:

If I were an elementary kid in school, or had a job that required this "Pledge,"
I wouldn't recite it, no way, no how.

Scripture states we aren't to take oaths.
My allegiance is to Yahweh and Him only, not to a country, not to a school, not to anything or anyone else.

It's that serious. I say the entire Pledge of Allegiance is unconstitutional because it goes against my Biblical beliefs.

But above all, my brethren, do not swear, either by heaven or by earth or with any other oath; but your yes is to be yes, and your no, no, so that you may not fall under judgment -- James 5:12


Old Post 09-15-2005 01:33 AM
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post #4  quote:

I am with Widden on this one if you want to levae the god bit out then that should be your choice.

Can I ask what is the big deal about taking this pledge does it make you fell more patriotic or something?


Old Post 09-15-2005 01:41 AM
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post #5  quote:

quote:
lodgebo said this in post #4 :
I am with Widden on this one if you want to levae the god bit out then that should be your choice.

Can I ask what is the big deal about taking this pledge does it make you fell more patriotic or something?


eh, we all did it as kids, and our parents and grandparents did it too,

so it's ingrained into us from our first moments in Kindergarten at the age of 4 or 5 and stays with us till 12 grade at the age of 17 or 18.


It is started at such an early age, and we said it everyday, we never thought about it, we didn't even understand the words,

but like spanking or Halloween or hearing lamo nursery rhymes as a child, it's so ingrained into our mind, that we defend it with vigor.

(I don't keep halloween, but most Americans do)


Old Post 09-15-2005 02:02 AM
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post #6  quote:

It's probably just easier to change the pledge the way it used to be, pre-1950's, without the reference to God at all.

Old Post 09-15-2005 02:19 AM
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post #7  quote:

Kids are allowed to opt out for religious reasons. They always have been able to do this.

The pledge is a patriotic thing to do.


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post #8  quote:

lodgebo,

The Pledge of Allegiance is a form of mind control in that we are indoctrinated at a young age to believe that the United States of America is the most special of nations and to hold nationalism at the forefront of our impressionable minds.

That way, when the government calls the teenagers into unconstitutional wars, they will go...because in the back of their minds is this unconscionable desire to fulill a "duty" to nationalistic ideals.

I am not a Jehovah's witness, Amish, or Quaker....but I find it crazy to uphold nationalistic tendencies indoctrinated into us as very young children above my belief in God.

And the phrase "under God" does not cinch it for me either way.


Old Post 09-15-2005 04:06 AM
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post #9  quote:

I've always thought the exact same thing that you've just said SWTT.

Old Post 09-15-2005 04:35 AM
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post #10  quote:

gaboman,

Is there a similar "pledge" or "oath" in Australia for the kids?


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post #11  quote:

Nothing even remotely close. We sometimes have a school song, and we may sing the national anthem, like, once a week (I think perhaps some schools have school pledges also), but nothing even remotely close to pledging an allegance to the supreme overlord of the Great Island Nation of Australia (I like to call her Gina).


I do remember we had a topic about something similar before... I don't really remember when or where though.


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post #12  quote:

I used to say the pledge when I was little, just cuz I was little and I was told to do it.

As soon as I was old enough to realize what was happening, I stopped. I don't think I've said the Pledge of Allegience in over ten years.

I don't plan on it.

I am not pledging my allegience to a lifeless piece of cloth. Forget it. It's idoltry.

I don't even place my hand over my heart during it. I do sometimes during the National Anthem, cuz I actually believe in the Revolution, but I will not acknowledge the Pledge of Idoltry.


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post #13  quote:

Thanks for you all filling me in on the pledge. Are there any other countries that have pledges of Allegiance? I know Gaboman says Australia does not have one and we don't have on In the UK except for whn you join the military.

Old Post 09-15-2005 12:55 PM
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post #14  quote:

I don't say the pledge of allegiance, simply for the fact that no one owns me, and I don't feel the need to speak words, about anything, that I don't "Believe" in. In one sense, I agree with SWTT.... brainwashing to make people have this, in the back of their minds. It isn't about religion for me... its about trying to get people to speak a recited verse that isn't true, or really followed. *shrugs* Just not my thing...

Old Post 09-15-2005 01:18 PM
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post #15  quote:

duty schmuty, i don't even know the national anthem. I do say the pledge at school though, but in all honesty, it doesn't really mean anything to me

Old Post 09-15-2005 10:53 PM
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post #16  quote:

If I had not been literally thrown out of Johns Hopkins University. I would be in a much better postion to discuss this matter.

If they will let me back, I will say anything they wish me to say..


On bended knee while chewing on wafers.


Old Post 09-15-2005 11:02 PM
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post #17  quote:

If you don't like the pledge, don't say it. If you don't like the idealogy that the country was built on, leave. Pretty simple to me.
We would NOT be the country we are without those ideals. If you feel the country is somehow lesser today, think about the political correctness and ACLU and the left. Then ask yourself, is this better now or was it better before?
I think the above are destroying the ideals this country was founded on and we will become cowering idiots before it's all over. Affraid to do this or say that because someone might get upset.


Old Post 09-16-2005 08:29 PM
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Back to reality...smelling the coffee post #18  quote:

quote:
We are seeing the emergence of the NeoCon's new Amerika, a land in which our rights and our very constitution are outdated ideals of a naive time long since passed. We are told that we have no need for our weapons because there is no government threatening our existence. We're told we are safe because our overgrown extremely distant government is protecting us from the unseen threat, having failed in bringing us hope, they have given us fear. But this fear is astract, it is not directed towards a given country or people, rather we must be ever vigilant because lurking around every corner is a "terrorist" seeking to demolish the American way of life. Before the terrorists it was the "bomb throwing anarchists" then the "red menace" and soon our enemy will be our neighbors, families and friends as we are asked to turn them in. In the new Amerika a citizen will not be defined by his place of birth or his legal alien status but by his level of loyalty to the government. You will be a citizen at nightfall, a "domestic insurgant" by morning and turned in by your neighbors come lunch time.


Welcome soon to 1984 on steroids.

(Seems some of our posters already maintain the above mentality...surprising??... )


Old Post 09-17-2005 12:15 AM
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post #19  quote:

For clarification purposes, my above post where I have quoted an opinion....

I agree with it to the extent that it's happening and will get worse, however,
I will not blame this on "neocons" alone. That would make me sound like some kind of liberal, which I am not....

I think there are many groups involved in the nonsense going on, the brainwashing, it holds no political lines or alliances...it's basically sold by the highest bidder.


Old Post 09-17-2005 04:08 AM
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post #20  quote:

quote:
USA1 said this in post #17 :
If you don't like the pledge, don't say it. If you don't like the idealogy that the country was built on, leave. Pretty simple to me.
We would NOT be the country we are without those ideals. If you feel the country is somehow lesser today, think about the political correctness and ACLU and the left. Then ask yourself, is this better now or was it better before?
I think the above are destroying the ideals this country was founded on and we will become cowering idiots before it's all over. Affraid to do this or say that because someone might get upset.


I love the ideology our country was built on.

therefore, I do not say the Pledge of Idoltry.


Old Post 09-17-2005 06:47 AM
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post #21  quote:

I think of the pledge as a patriotic thing to do. Many of our ancestors fought and died for the liberty we now enjoy. I look at it as an acknowledgment of their sacrifice. If people do not want to say the pledge, then they do not have to say it.

There is also a Christian flag with a pledge.


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post #22  quote:

All this talk of patriotism, ideals, and foundations that the pledge of allegiance is said to be built on would make sense if the pledge were not changed from what it was originally. If you are so for the foundation of the pledge, then you realize it's foolish to try and turn this into a thing of "the ACLU and the left" considering the pledge was created by a Christian socialist. He even wanted to add 'equality' to the pledge, but realized that wouldn't fly due to the ill will towards equality for women and blacks.

Here is a link on the history of the Pledge of Allegiance, very informative:
The Pledge of Allegiance: A Short History


Old Post 09-17-2005 10:27 PM
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