Sowhatsthetruth..posted the following based on broadway tunes...
If someone, anyone sang "Memory" from the musical "Cats" who actually had some talent, I might actually watch this show.
But then again, someone like Barbara Streisand didn't need a "talent show" to launch her career...she just had talent.
I found it interesting and chose to expand upon it in a different way:
VERY interesting comment....which I think can be expanded on.
Babs does indeed have a natural talent, and back in the day (like when she was in Yentil, etc.) she wasnt exactly some little dolly that men just swooned over.
Has looks in this business taken over? Is this why natural talent has been overlooked because people think its more important to have someone like Britney Spears (who can really hardly carry a tune and is only mainly known for her looks)?
Is this again why women in this business are more apt to having to look perfect while the guys can be who they want?
Lets face it...how many female versions of the Ruben Studdard have been chosen for AI? Not necessarily to win...but to even participate...
Remember the triplets from St. Louis...Simon said they were too chunky...one season we had Ruben...this season, Scott. But THOSE girls were too chunky?
Makes me wonder...in today's society...would Barbra made it based on what she looked like when she first started?
Im not saying she is ugly...but would they have made her re-do her nose, etc...to fit into the hollywood perception of what a successful woman needs to look like?
Im not saying that many of the gals in AI dont belong...but how many were possibly better and were cut because of their image...and how many might have had that same natural talent that SWTT brought up because of their looks we are missing out on it because of a show like this or because Hollywood wont allow them to belong?
Kind of sexist is it not?
IMO there are obvious signs of sexism going on in thsi show...
Anyone up for discussion? If so...tell us your thoughts.
Of course thats just my opinion....I could be wrong. (Dennis Miller)
"You might be the toughest little whacker. . .but in my world, you're about as worrisome as a cloudy day." (Dutch Dooley)
Regarding the sexism of this show...I can only base it on the previous years because that's what I watched. I watched a little of it this year, but it was the men only.
It seems they are appealing to a younger group of people...which the music industry typically does because the average age of their consumer is like 13.
And this younger group of people typically enjoys different music than Broadway tunes. I like all kinds of music every genre, my only criteria is that it is done skillfully and it touches me in some way.
For instance, Streisand's "Memory" and "Papa Can you Hear Me" came out in the 1980's. Both of those songs rip my heart out when I hear them. I literally sob every time I hear them.
And since this music mostly appealed to the older folk (and my Dad and stepmom are operaholics and broadway tunaholics so this is how I was exposed to these songs.)
And older people (as I am becoming one myself) tend to not give a flying Miss Pitypat whether the singer is cute, sexy, ugly, fat, or slim. I listen to music, I don't watch it. But the MTV crowd buys music alot of times because of the videos...so sexuality and good looks play a part. MTV for me wasn't about how fine someone was, it was about how creative the video was.
But even so, in the 1980's the genre of new wave appealed to the younger crowd. In college I absolutely adored this song by Romeo Void --- Never say Never.
But, the singer was hefty, a big girl, and the record label did not want to show her on the album. They did all they could to keep this woman's picture out of the media.
This is what they ended up with, her lying belly down, as not not expose her heftiness:
And I think the reason for that is the genre. It was a party, let's have sex song, and the singer wasn't the typical "babe" they portrayed. So, this kind of sexism existed even back in the 80's.
What I don't understand is....if sex sells in certain genres, why in the world is it that the women have to be hot and the men don't....? I mean Kid Rock? A sex symbol? I enjoy some of his music, I think the song, "Forever" is spectacular...and I like his cocky attitude...but I don't think he's hot in any way shape or form.
And Marc Anthony was touted as the hottest latino singer. Blech. If hot is the credentials, why not Ricky Martin or Iglesias? I guess it's a preference thing, but Marc Anthony isn't really good looking, IMO.
And Ruben definitely was not the looker and the songs they gave him to sing on his album were a little creepy, stalker kind. And he really hasn't taken off like Clay has.
I think Clay can sing. I don't care to watch him sing because he does this thing with his eyelashes all the time that just trips me out. He kind of tilts his head and gives a sexy eyelash flicker...I don't find it sexy, it just annoys me.
Maybe the sexy boy toy fetish is only reserved for boy bands and when they go solo? Girls/Women like to have their man dancing together in groups of four or five? I don't know.
sowhatsthetruth said this in post #2 : Regarding the sexism of this show...I can only base it on the previous years because that's what I watched. I watched a little of it this year, but it was the men only.
It seems they are appealing to a younger group of people...which the music industry typically does because the average age of their consumer is like 13.
Is it that young? On the average its around 13? Hmm..thats interesting.
And this younger group of people typically enjoys different music than Broadway tunes. I like all kinds of music every genre, my only criteria is that it is done skillfully and it touches me in some way.
For instance, Streisand's "Memory" and "Papa Can you Hear Me" came out in the 1980's. Both of those songs rip my heart out when I hear them. I literally sob every time I hear them.
Memory is okay...I like it...but O M G...I love that other song...Papa Can You Hear Me (from Yentil)...I absolutely love that song!!!!!!
And since this music mostly appealed to the older folk (and my Dad and stepmom are operaholics and broadway tunaholics so this is how I was exposed to these songs.)
And older people (as I am becoming one myself) tend to not give a flying Miss Pitypat whether the singer is cute, sexy, ugly, fat, or slim. I listen to music, I don't watch it. But the MTV crowd buys music alot of times because of the videos...so sexuality and good looks play a part. MTV for me wasn't about how fine someone was, it was about how creative the video was.
Just out of curiousoty...does MTV generate alot of viewers like it did back when it started? I know that I waited all night waiting for Michael Jackson's thriller video to come on for the first time...
Do people still wait and watch music video's still? Somehow I guess I just assumed that music video's werent as big as they used to be...maybe this was a bad assumption on my part.
But even so, in the 1980's the genre of new wave appealed to the younger crowd. In college I absolutely adored this song by Romeo Void --- Never say Never.
But, the singer was hefty, a big girl, and the record label did not want to show her on the album. They did all they could to keep this woman's picture out of the media.
This is what they ended up with, her lying belly down, as not not expose her heftiness:
And I think the reason for that is the genre. It was a party, let's have sex song, and the singer wasn't the typical "babe" they portrayed. So, this kind of sexism existed even back in the 80's.
Hmm...very interesting the way she was placed on that picture. I also agree that Hollywood has been generalizing women for a long time and in the music industry as well...I remember when guys were flipped over Ann Wilson from Heart and the girls wanted her voice...now when people see her...they gross out...thats so strange to me...because she is still Ann Wilson with this AMAZING voice! (IMO)...
What I don't understand is....if sex sells in certain genres, why in the world is it that the women have to be hot and the men don't....? I mean Kid Rock? A sex symbol? I enjoy some of his music, I think the song, "Forever" is spectacular...and I like his cocky attitude...but I don't think he's hot in any way shape or form.
Thats just it! I mean if Kid Rock was just a normal guy walking down the street and had no fans...I doubt too many women would be turning their head for a second look.
And Marc Anthony was touted as the hottest latino singer. Blech. If hot is the credentials, why not Ricky Martin or Iglesias? I guess it's a preference thing, but Marc Anthony isn't really good looking, IMO.
And Ruben definitely was not the looker and the songs they gave him to sing on his album were a little creepy, stalker kind. And he really hasn't taken off like Clay has.
I think Clay can sing. I don't care to watch him sing because he does this thing with his eyelashes all the time that just trips me out. He kind of tilts his head and gives a sexy eyelash flicker...I don't find it sexy, it just annoys me.
Maybe the sexy boy toy fetish is only reserved for boy bands and when they go solo? Girls/Women like to have their man dancing together in groups of four or five? I don't know.
I think what I have found strange in American Idol...is that they want the women to be perfect looking.
Last season Diana got the slam about her weight...Kim had it the season before...
notice they both have lost the weight since...they seem to think that in order to make it in this business that they have to "fit" the part.
People like Ruben and Scott, whether they lose it or not dont really have to worry...its just accepted regardless.
here's one....How do you think Aretha Franklin would do if she tried out for American Idol today (and if she were the right age)...she certainly has the voice! Would America be stripped of that voice because she weighed more than they wanted?
Im sick of the Ruben's getting the "you are our velvet Teddy bear" whereas the women version of Ruben are getting the "you dont have the look to be an American Idol."
Of course thats just my opinion....I could be wrong. (Dennis Miller)
"You might be the toughest little whacker. . .but in my world, you're about as worrisome as a cloudy day." (Dutch Dooley)
Regarding my statement of the average age of a music consumer as 13....it was late and I couldn't find the right words...
What I should have said is that the demographic group they target is 13, because marketing studies have shown that this is the biggest age group who spends the most money on CD's and other musicabilia. (I know that when I was that age, that was all I spend my money on too).
MTV? They don't play music videos on MTV do they anymore?
And also VH1, it's mostly alot of lists of "best and worst of" and biographies of music stars.
Ann Wilson is my all time favorite female singer. I was absolutely "Crazy On" those girls in the 1980's. Followed them to their hotel after concerts, called their record companies to speak to them...I was out of my mind, but I was harmless.
Ann had surgery on her stomach and has lost a bit of weight, and now they have been doing tours for the past couple of years or so.
I have their DVD "Alive in Seattle" and it's wonderful.
I don't care about her weight, except for her health, but her voice is still the same...INCREDIBLE.
And I believe the AI sexist attitude of making women fit a mold and men...well, we just have to adjust to them..., well, this attitude is all throughout the entertainment industry. Largely, I believe because it is largely men calling the shots behind the scenes. Whether they are heterosexual or homosexual, it doesn't matter because this standard is prolific throughout and I don't think it has to do with sex appeal....it's more about our culture at large.
How many of these young women singers wind up marrying old men? Far too many, I could rattle off a bunch of names, but I just don't get it. It would be like marrying my grandfather. Blech.
And men like Sean Connery and Michael Douglas...one white haired, the other wrinkle pocked...they are considered sexy and get sexy roles, wheareas women that age are either put out to pasture or play grandmothers.
Yes, Aretha Franklin is another good example. Or Chaka Kahn, Patti LaBelle...they wouldn't play on AI either. And it's a shame, because if it's singing talent they are after...the big gals can belt them out better than most.
It's a double standard for sure. And it's just wrong. Sick and wrong.
What do you expect in a country where people are beginning to consider a woman who wears a size 12 a plus size! (I've heard it!!) And that results from clothing manufacturers who cater to stars and models vanity - they make them a dress and tell the star it is a size 4, 2 or even a 0. How can that be? I thought "0" meant nothing? And how can someone who has a chest of 36 and hips of 34, 35 or 36 be a size 2????? Dressmakers have just downsized their numbering to play to a celebrity's vanity. They now get to say they wear a size 2. It used to be 6-8 was small, 10-12 was medium, 14-16 was large, etc. The way clothing is sized now makes me sick. NO ONE WHO WEARS A SIZE 12 SHOULD BE CONSIDERED A PLUS SIZE! I've had my rant and I'm sorry I got off topic.
As far as AI is concerned, the powers that be want their women skinny because, for some reason, they've made up their mind that is the only acceptable way a woman should be. Why, I don't know. I saw a picture of Courtney Cox and Jennifer Aniston the other day. I thought, "how can anyone say they look good?" Their faces, neck and arms are too thin and haggard. Why is normal not good enough anymore? It has to be the lean look, or nothing.
I don't know, were any of these chubby tryouts good enough singers? Aside from Simon's comments about certain ones being too fat, I don't think even he could deny a larger girl a shot at the title if she was an exceptional singer.
That said, his comments about the size of the three sisters was out of line, but his role on the show IS to add the hard-line critique, and that includes overal presentation as well as vocal talent.
Clothing sizes drive me crazy. All those celebs with their DD silicone boobs. Sorry gals, but if you wear a D cup, you will never get them into a small or even medium. They only fit into a large.
I think Brittney Spear's career really led the industry down a slippery slope. Wait, Madonna was the first. Neither one has a great voice. They are all about image. The sad thing is that women are just as likely as men to tear down a contestant that is not underweight.
Ron Ackerman said this in post #8 : She was up against Dianna DeGarmo who Simon said needed to loose a few pounds.
By the way, she did and looks fantastic.
I didn't see anything wrong with Diana's weight and I'm pretty picky I'll admit. Either way Diana wasn't gorgeous but she is cute. Fantasia man I think I'd rather kiss a crawdad.
"The American Revolution was fought for a reason." ~~ Director of Clark County's board of elections
I didn't see anything wrong with Diana's weight and I'm pretty picky I'll admit. Either way Diana wasn't gorgeous but she is cute. Fantasia man I think I'd rather kiss a crawdad.
We all have our different versions of beauty, don't we?
04-25-2005 04:44 AM
