Just saw Rev, randomly caught the last half hour on HBO tonight.
I noticed something that may or may not have been noticed on here before - probably the former
When Smith finally overtakes Neo, he overtakes him just like anyone else. Yes, the Oracle was taken over by THAT Smith and she undoubtedly had a hand in the ending, but woudln't Smith, given the conditions in which tehy were fighting, just punched Neo's head right off? If Smith hadn't overtaken Neo, but he had just killed him through the physical torture of fighting, it's a whole new ball game - Neo fails and Smith wins. The point is in how Neo is "killed" and how Smith does the killing.
It reminds me a lot of Lord of the Rings ending - ultimately, the way in which the ring is destroyed reflects its nature which is also its own ultimate doom - Frodo and Gollum fighting over the ring and Frodo's finger having to be broken right off with Gollum attached to it, falling into the lava.
Also reminds me of The Talisman by Stephen King and P. Straub - at the end, Sloat can't just destroy Jack normally or kill him by strangling him; he raises his arms with his staff in the air and points it directly at THE TALISMAN to destroy IT instead of Jack, and the power reflects back into Sloat and destroys him instead; same idea.
Because Smith feels the need to OVERTAKE Neo like he has with all the others, instead of just killing him like he would have in the train scene in Matrix I toward the end (before he became Smith Unplugged), Neo takes him over from the inside AGAIN, just like in Matrix I.
Just a thought before sleep, and haven't posted here in a while!
Well, I think that it didn't matter how Neo got defeated. As long as Neo was out of the equation it mad it 'unbalanced.' Neo finally realized that they are both equals in power. Just that Smith is a program and cannot get tired or exhausted. Neo, on the other hand... is human. So he cannot possibly continue and fight forever. Neo realizes this and just succumbs to Smith. Smith didn’t have a chat with The Architect, so he doesn’t know about this whole equation thing and that they need each other to live. I think if Smith knew that he needed Neo to stay alive in order to win then he would have captured (not killed) Neo and make his way to 01 and destroy the Machine City, which were his intentions in the first place and that is what Neo used as a bargaining device with the Deuce Ex Machine. Neo had some inside information from the Architect…. Um wow. I just remembered that The Architect is from 01 so The Architect knew Smith’s plans of utter domination before it happened and knew about Smiths and Neo’s connection to he used Neo to save his own ass basically.
My question is: Why didn’t the machines just reload the matrix after Smith took everyone over? Why did Smith have to be destroyed first?
Sorry if I strayed off topic but I was just typing whatever came to my head at the moment.
chodder said this in post #2 : Well, I think that it didn't matter how Neo got defeated. As long as Neo was out of the equation it mad it 'unbalanced.' Neo finally realized that they are both equals in power. Just that Smith is a program and cannot get tired or exhausted. Neo, on the other hand... is human. So he cannot possibly continue and fight forever. Neo realizes this and just succumbs to Smith. Smith didn’t have a chat with The Architect, so he doesn’t know about this whole equation thing and that they need each other to live. I think if Smith knew that he needed Neo to stay alive in order to win then he would have captured (not killed) Neo and make his way to 01 and destroy the Machine City, which were his intentions in the first place and that is what Neo used as a bargaining device with the Deuce Ex Machine. Neo had some inside information from the Architect…. Um wow. I just remembered that The Architect is from 01 so The Architect knew Smith’s plans of utter domination before it happened and knew about Smiths and Neo’s connection to he used Neo to save his own ass basically.
My question is: Why didn’t the machines just reload the matrix after Smith took everyone over? Why did Smith have to be destroyed first?
Sorry if I strayed off topic but I was just typing whatever came to my head at the moment.
Yeah, you took that in a direction other than what I was getting at - I understand Smith is a program and wouldn't get tired, for example, but Neo destroyed him in Matrix I and Smith was supposed to go back to the source and didn't, which is what got us to that point.
Neo doesn't succumb to Smith...I don't call it succumbing and it's not because he was tired. I think neo could have continued fighting until both were dead or disabled enough that the Matrix just crumbled, Neo failed, and Zion got destroyed. The Matrix can't reload with a horrible virus inside - that's like uninstalling and reinstalling a program in an OS when a virus has infected the OS itself. What Neo realized is not that he couldn't fight forever, but that the only way to win was to sarcifice himself for a greater good - a good that he couldn't have seen if Trinity was right by his side in the real world awaiting his return. She needed to die so he could see past love, past Zion, past everything and just achieve the state of Nirvana ("peace") that he achieves in the end. That's why he's able to lay down the proverbial sword and allow his enemy to destroy himself THROUGH Neo.
In any case, I like the assumption about the architect and how he may have also been in on the setup to get Neo to defend the machines (and Zion) at the same time - good call; I can't really find anything that would dispute that other than the Oracle's assertion that "that man can't see past any choice". Plus, he says "YOU played a dangerous game" at the end, not "WE"...minor details? W/ the Wachowskis, there are none
Anyway, just saying that I liked the ending, was totally satisfeid with it, and it reminded me of other tales where the "bad guy" becomes overly zealous and tries to kill a fly with a machine gun instead of just trying to win or achieve some sort of goal. "What do all men with power want - more power!"
He did not want to be Neo. He just wanted revenge. He wanted to destroy Neo because Neo had destroyed him when he was an Agent. As he said in Reloaded, "We are here to take from you what you tried to take from us: Purpose."
M.
"Every positive integer is one of Ramanujan's personal friends."—J. E. Littlewood.
I think both of you are right. Smith took The Oracle over because he wanted to be her. He wanted the eyes of The Oracle. So, he wanted to take Neo over so there was no longer a competition of who is the best. He knows Neo as some crazy ass skill. So if Smith can gain control of Neo then he will be unstoppable.
Smith lost purpose as an Agent - he defied the will of the system to go back to the source and be deleted; therefore he was left without purpose. He was a "vampire/wolf" like you heard Persephone talk about in Reloaded. The only thing he COULD do at that point was expand like a virus, exactly what he said about humans....in losing purpose, he became what he despised.
Smith is hard to figure out, a very complex character.
In M1, he is cool, calm, collected, like the other agents. Then we see under the surface, he is totally insane with hate, and wants to escape.
The logic breaks down some for me, I can't find his motivation with reloaded and revolutions.
We find out about the other 5 to 8 matrix's before this one. So Agent Smith has been in here a long time it looks like.
So, in theory, he would know about the reloads, and finding the codes to Zion in M1 seems like a moot point.
The only thing I can figure is that Smith is like the Merovingian, he lived a life somewhere else in Zero One before "coming" to the Matrix.
The Merovingian could have been a program at zero one, or a machine himself who transferred himself into the matrix and left his body, or he could have been a former one.
At any rate, Smith could have done the same thing and been in this Matrix alone.
The only problem with that theory, is he says it's happening as before, well not exactly.
And he knows about the "first matrix, where none suffered and everyone was happy".
So, he seems to know something.
I never have found a good answer to why Smith wants the codes in M1, and why the agents try to kill the keymaker in Reloaded.
Why are the agents fighting against the will of the Architect?
I thought archie wants the one to reach the room, so the Matrix can reboot.
Mabye Smith in m1, tired of reboots, wants the zion mainframe, so he can kill them all, and stop the cycle.
Still don't make sense, Archie can still release some pods and start Zion all over again.
I don't know, I wish someone could explain Smiths motivation in m1 to me that ties all the loose ends together, and explain what the agents in reloaded motivation is.
In reloaded, Smith wants everything dead cause he lost purpose, yes, but he was already insane in M1.
He wants to take over Neo, not to be the one and reboot the matrix, but to have his powers, so it will be easier for him to take over zero one.
(the ones powers extend to the source, the machine mainframe)
I think that basically, Smith was doing his job, but also expressed his own desire to leave the Matrix.
I think that during M1, Smith was putting pressure on the One (Neo). It turns out that the pressure was enough to get Neo to begin to realize what he could do (the helicopter scene where Neo is prepared to try to hold up the chopper to save Trinity, also when he stands against an Agent). If the Agents HAD acquired the access codes, then they may have jumped into action early, but it really would've just forced Neo to realize his potential sooner. Basically, it was a blitz by the agents. If they capture the One, then they could bring him to the Architect...
I guess that the machines wipe out all of Zion anyways during a regular reload, so getting the mainframe codes will make that process less casualty-heavy for the machines. Still, why Smith thinks he can get out of the Matrix by doing that, I'm not sure.... Maybe Agents have incentive-laden contracts?
why does Smith want the codes in M1? well it's impossible to look at each movie as a separate entity, but suspend disbelief for a second and pretend there was no reloaded or revolutions made.
smith will have fulfilled his purpose and be left with NO purpose had he provided the access codes to zion. a program who is obsolete gets deleted...a program who has damaged code is deleted...but what happens to a program who goes above and beyond and does something great for 01/the system? probably gets some kind of place in 01, no? all we can do is theorize. but the point is that Smith figures his purpose will be fulfilled if he can provide access codes to zion mainframe to his "higher ups". all the other agents just appear to try to kill the anomalies/rebels...they simply don't know any better than that one mission. smith wasn't insane in m1, he was just...ambitious
why does smith want to kill everyone in zion and stop the cycle? if we look at neo and smith as two parts of one whole, even before they "joined" at the end of M1, smith wants the opposite of neo - smith wants everyone in zion destroyed, neo wants the machines in 01 destroyed, or at least a peace. smith wants power, neo wants peace. i guess they were just setting the stage for reloaded and rev...?
when smith says "it's happening just as before", my understanding is that he's talking about himself hunting down neo...but instead of 1 smith vs. 1 neo, we have thousands of smiths vs. one neo. i didn't read into it any more than that...smith has come back, not as an agent of the system but as an entity without purpose, to finish the job from M1.
Noticed this thread only just now. Guess I should visit the Matrix forum more often, there still seems to be stuff happening here.
Now, to me the reason Smith overtook Neo instead of just killing him seems to be simple. It's the same reason only one Smith fought Neo: he saw it would happen that way. What really bakes my noodle is would it have happened that way if Smith hadn't overtaken the Oracle and known beforehand how it was going to be.
quote:
I never have found a good answer to why Smith wants the codes in M1, and why the agents try to kill the keymaker in Reloaded.
Why are the agents fighting against the will of the Architect?
I think Sierra got it right with the codes thing. They were going to destroy Zion anyway and the codes would make it easier.
The keymaker thing is a bit more complicated but I have a theory. It goes like this: At some point during the course of Reloaded the Architect found out about Smith duplicating himself and realised that he'd need Neo to stop Smith. He needs Neo to stay in the Matrix. So he sends agents to get the keymaker. Being like he is he can't just let Neo come to him and have to admit that he needs help from the humans.
So when the agents fail to stop Neo he needs another plan. He has to persuade Neo to stay in the Matrix and not reload it without telling him the real reason. For that he needs Trinity. That explains why the agents- who during the chase for the keymaker totally ignored Trinity saying "she's meaningless" or something to that effect- suddenly are very interested in her, tryíng to kill her. The whole deal, first with the keymaker then with Trinity, was just so that Neo would stay in the Matrix and fight Smith.
Or perhaps not. It's been a long time since I came up with that and I haven't really thought about how it fits in with the trilogy as a whole. But there you have it, anyway.
If you're robbing a bank and your pants fall down, I think it's okay to laugh and to let the hostages laugh too, because, come on, life is funny.
i think it's all about balance. neo is the one. smith is (according to the oracle) neo's opposite (his negative, [-1?]). neo can't defeat smith and smith can't overcome neo. neo must embrace smith to balance the equation. kind of like matter and anti-matter except that in the place of annihilation we have rejuvenation.
02-25-2005 03:27 AM
