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dvader
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The Morality of Oil in Iraq post #1  quote:



One cannot help but wonder where the morality lies within the current handling of Iraq's oil fields.

Currently, the oil is sold on the world market with the proceeds going, I believe, into a fund managed by the U.N. (or some horsesh*it agency) and then, eventually, back to Iraq (Last time I checked, anyway).

The question, then, that begs an answer.... is this moral?

Gas prices in the U.S. are rather high right now. I believe that the oil from Iraq should be pumped directly into U.S. refineries to alleviate the high cost of gasoline, and relieve the Americans who had paid with their tax-dollars to liberate that barren land.

While it's true that in some parts of Iraq that there is resistance to liberation by a faction of radical Allah-seekers, we must not forget that those in question can now wail and scream in the streets with freedom... freedom from fear... rather than under the fearsome clutches of Saddam Hussein and his two bastard sons.


Old Post 01-14-2005 09:55 PM
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JY_French
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post #2  quote:

Saddam Hussein and his henchmen were bastards for sure. As for the Americans tax-dollars being used for this war ... noone, and certainly not the UN, asked for them to be employed to wage such a war. This is a decision taken by the US administration, so why should the Iraqi oil be pumped straight to the american refineries to compensate something that is from the US' sole decision and responsibility ?

Old Post 01-15-2005 09:29 PM
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nikiTa
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post #3  quote:

To the winner go the spoils----war has been like that for thousands of years.

That fact just isn't popular in "politically correct" societies anymore.


Old Post 01-16-2005 02:07 AM
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JY_French
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post #4  quote:

Yes - but isn't it this "political correctness" that has been supposedly driving the Bush admin foreign policy for the past couple of years, according to those people's claims ? Don't we hear right wingers on this board blaming the decadent europeans for their supposed procrastination, while the US would play the moral high ground ?
Sowhat I know about your lucidity on all these concerns. Personaly I am fed up with those dishonest individuals spewing their propaganda over here. It is not a question of difference of nationality, to the contrary of what those people conveniently claim to justify their looking down at us. We are just talking about intellectual honesty.


Old Post 01-16-2005 11:03 AM
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nikiTa
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post #5  quote:

How can anyone fight a war these days AND be honest....?
how can countries use MI5, MI6, CIA and all the rest....and rely on truthful information when these agencies are ALL about subterfuge and disinformation.....?

Most people do rely on what comes out of a politicians mouth as honesty and truth....when in reality their statements feed into this disinformation and propaganda.

I have said it before on this forum that I would have more respect for the Bush administration if they did come out and explain their true reasons for invading Iraq....but the problem is....maybe some of these people caught up in the propaganda would have opposed their reasons......but I am not so sure IF they would have opposed these actions given most can't think past the TV screen.


Old Post 01-16-2005 10:30 PM
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asantana
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post #6  quote:

so it is the oil after all, not WMD, not Saddam, not freedom. Oil Oil Oil

Old Post 01-17-2005 12:03 AM
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nikiTa
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post #7  quote:

That's not the reason.....oil is just one of the spoils of war....and in Arabic Middle Eastern countries....that's about the only spoil ya got.

Nations don't go to war for the spoils.
If that were the case the USA would have gone after Venezuela and some African countries too.


Old Post 01-17-2005 04:13 AM
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h@ts
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post #8  quote:

quote:
sowhatsthetruth said this in post #7 :
That's not the reason.....oil is just one of the spoils of war....and in Arabic Middle Eastern countries....that's about the only spoil ya got.

Nations don't go to war for the spoils.
If that were the case the USA would have gone after Venezuela and some African countries too.


War itself is a spoil. War is hugely profitable. America is the biggest arms dealer in the world. The UK is the second biggest dealer. And then there's reconstruction. Someone always profiteers from war.

And coutries go to war all the time. They just don't necessarily send their own troops. But they do send weapons, training and intelligence to whoever they support. For this help not surprisingly they expect in return some reward and it's usually something to do with trade benefits.


Old Post 01-17-2005 09:38 AM
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nikiTa
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post #9  quote:

The war machine isn't a spoil in itself. It's a system that ensures self-preservation.

President Dwight D Eisenhower warned the American people about the militaryindustrial complex...
"In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the militaryindustrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist."

entire speech
http://coursesa.matrix.msu.edu/~hst...nts/indust.html


Old Post 01-17-2005 04:12 PM
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USA1
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post #10  quote:

I beg to differ. I for one feel the oil needs to go back into the Iraqi economy. If they want to SELL us oil, so be it. I am sure we can oblidge them. I would rather buy the oil from Iraq than Saudi.
They don't owe us a favor of oil. If you feel this way then you also must believe this war was for an oil benefit or scheme alone. I for one don't believe it.

I also don't envision any direct benifit from Iraqi oil in the US unless it is purchased through investing oil companies.


Old Post 01-17-2005 07:44 PM
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nikiTa
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post #11  quote:

USA1:I for one feel the oil needs to go back into the Iraqi economy."

SWTT: What Iraqi economy?

USA1: I would rather buy the oil from Iraq than Saudi.

SWTT: Saudi is just as guilty about supporting Islamic Jihad as any of the other Islamic countries. We should not be doing business with them. Period.

USA1: They don't owe us a favor of oil.

SWTT: You are right....we owe the Iraqi people bigtime for allowing us to use their country as a battleground.

USA1: If you feel this way then you also must believe this war was for an oil benefit or scheme alone. I for one don't believe it.

SWTT: That's faulty logic....spoils are different than reasons to go to war.


Old Post 01-18-2005 01:51 AM
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oneofpeace
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post #12  quote:

Oil is the resource to many avenues of revenue in Iraq. Some of you are very short sighted to simply believe that it's about pumping oil onto ships bound for the US.

This is a fact. Had Saddam never invaded Kuwait, he'd still be on the US ally list and if Saddam's regime were never found to be sitting on such a large surplus of oil, the US would not be in Iraq today.

Oil is a means to revenue gentlemen not the end to it. Surely you must see this by now or (pardon the pun) you're just burying your heads in the sand.


Old Post 01-19-2005 04:07 PM
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JY_French
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post #13  quote:

All western countries have been playing such a tricky game for years, manipulating third world countries as they saw fit their own interest. The height of cynism however consists in painting one's actions with moral colours. In such a way the Bush admin has been very good, particularly domestically, ripping off the american public by scaring it the hell out.

Old Post 01-22-2005 02:31 PM
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USA1
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post #14  quote:

FWIW-Dvader was just joking.

Besides, if we were willing to die for their oil, we would have it all by now.


Old Post 01-22-2005 09:33 PM
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oneofpeace
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post #15  quote:

USA, you're just simply missing the puzzle. Maybe you should buy yourself a vowel.

But of course. Saddam was a great threat to the nation with his phatom tons of WMD that we needed to go over there, take him out, and protect their oil structures. After the dog and pony show at the UN declaring everything seen from a few hundred miles above earth was proof positive, I can see how you have the utmost confidence that we were justified.


Old Post 01-23-2005 06:04 AM
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USA1
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post #16  quote:

oneofspin,
get over it.


Old Post 01-26-2005 06:46 PM
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USA1
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post #17  quote:

Chirac's Saddam Connection
By Thomas W. Murphy

French President Jacques Chirac's special relationship with Saddam Hussein goes back almost 30 years. As the French Prime Minister in 1974, Chirac was instrumental in boosting France's diplomatic and economic ties with oil-rich Iraq. Chirac called Saddam Hussein "a personal friend" after Chirac and Hussein finalized the agreement for the construction of a French-built nuclear reactor near Baghdad; the reactor that was later bombed by Israel.

Chirac's long-standing relationship with Saddam Hussein and France's vast financial interests with the current Iraqi Government goes a long way in explaining France's seemingly inexplicable passion to keep Saddam Hussein in power.

France has historically been Iraq's best friend in the West. The French-Iraqi connection started shortly after France pulled out of NATO in 1966.

Prior to the Arab-Israeli war of 1967, France was the chief supplier of military equipment to Israel. In fact, France helped Israel build its nuclear reactor at Dimona, supplied Israel with enriched uranium, and actively helped Israel develop nuclear weapons.

In the days leading up to the Arab-Israeli War, France abandoned Israel and threw its hat in with the Arabs nations. De Gaulle doubted the Israeli's could defeat the combined Arab nations and saw the coming war as an opportunity to extend French influence and cultivate relationships with the oil-rich Arab nations.

By the end of the 1970s France was second only to the Soviet Union as a supplier of both military and civilian equipment to the Iraqis. The trend continued throughout the 1980s. France strongly backed Iraq during its war with Iran. Unlike other western governments who gave minimal help to Iraq hoping to stave off an Iraqi defeat and maintain the status quo; France supplied Iraq with Mirage Fighters, Super Etendard aircraft with Exocet missiles, and sophisticated munitions.

The Gulf War of 1991 provided little more than a hiccup in French-Iraqi relations. By 1994, France was calling for a loosening of UN sanctions and along with Russia attempting to short-circuit UNSCOM at every step. France pushed to allow Iraq to sell more oil. When the U.S. and Britain demanded tough controls to ensure the increased oil revenues would not be used to buy arms, the French objected saying such controls would undermine Iraqi sovereignty. From 1997 on, France fought to get the UN sanctions lifted entirely.

Last year, under intense pressure from France and Russia, the UN loosened restrictions on high-tech equipment, enabling Iraq to obtain a broad range of equipment with potential military applications; ranging from agricultural sprayers that can be used to disperse chemical and biological weapons to neutron generators that can be used as crude nuclear triggers and are compatible with a known Iraqi design for a gun-implosion type nuclear device.

Hundreds of French firms do business with Iraq. France sold $1.5 billion worth of goods to Iraq last year under the oil-for-food program; the most of any nation. French giants Alcatel and Renault do a booming business in Iraq, and French oil firms hold contracts with Saddam Hussein's government estimated at over $60 billion for oil exploration and development; oil contracts that cannot be worked until UN sanctions are lifted.

In light of France's financial interests and longstanding ties to Saddam Hussein's Iraq, its hardly surprising that France opposes military action to depose Saddam Hussein. A new Iraqi government might not be inclined to honor oil contracts with Saddam's old buddies.

And then again, as one U.S. intelligence expert somewhat facetiously put it, "France will jump on board with the U.S. the minute their agents in Baghdad get done shredding all evidence of their illicit arms sales to Iraq."


Old Post 01-26-2005 06:47 PM
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JY_French
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post #18  quote:

How surprising on behalf of you. Interesting anyway, but could you be as objective as to post the same account about the US links with Iraq ? Oh and by the way - what has become this "broad range of equipment with potential military applications" massively sold by France to Iraq ? WMDs ?

Old Post 01-26-2005 09:03 PM
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