he received a call from a middle easterner who has lived in the u.s. for many years, about 30, if i recall. he said that he has a lot of family in iraq and communicates with them weekly via the internet. he was told that, to date, there have been about 120,000 iraqi civilians killed since the u.s. invasion, and that, although that fact is well known throughout the mideast, it is not disclosed in the united states. his relatives said that the u.s. has taken a region that posed no threat to the united states and turned it into a region that will pose a terrorist threat to us from here on out.
editorializing, I call it brilliant judgment by a brilliant leader. that's exactly what most republicans never understood and never will, until it's too late.
meanwhile, back at the ranch, the cost of the war is soaring out of sight, as is our deficit, and our presidential aides are resigning.
That 120,000 figure has been discussed elsewhere on the board here and most agreed that 40,000 was a more reasonable estimate. I seem to recall the 120,000 number being "casualties" rather than deaths.
Sean Kelly said this in post #2 : That 120,000 figure has been discussed elsewhere on the board here and most agreed that 40,000 was a more reasonable estimate. I seem to recall the 120,000 number being "casualties" rather than deaths.
be it 120,000 or 20,000, we got ourselves into a helluva mess. and bin Laden roams free.
i'd venture to guess that the families of those 40,000 (or 20,000, or whatever) would rather have their loved ones back even if it meant saddam was back as well.
Tell me my firend, of the 20,000 or 120,000, how many of those are innocent and how many are the enemy? 1,200 enemy just in Fallujah alone last week.
Break it down for us all to see if you dare.
While it is certain that many of the enemy are Iraqi Bathists and Zaquawi drug induced Iraqi death squads. It seems worthy of showing how many innocent people have been killed and not just throw out a number as if America or the Coalition bombed or shot all of these 'innocent' people.
Show the number of Iraqi Police, NG and Army that are included in the 20,000 or 120,000.
Show the number of children and their mothers blown up at random.
Show the number of people killed by random mortar and rocket fire from the enemy.
When you are done with that task, add on another 300,000 Iraqis found in the mass graves while you are at it.
Although, I do agree that one dead Iraqi or one dead American soldier is too many for the profit of Islam. We are too good to die for that religion. We Americans will however, volunteer and die for the people of Iraq.
I believe that the true martyrs aren't these enemy, they are the innocents murdered by them and those fighting to help them.
When you allow those who murder children 30 at a time or policemen 50 at a time a chance to get your sympathy. They have won you over with terrorism.
So when you dump your accusations out, don't be like CNN or the Times, break it down so we see a real picture and not one you are personally trying to paint for us.
"Those who know nothing of Islam pretend that Islam counsels against war. Those who say this are witless." ~Ayatollah Khomeini
USA1 said this in post #4 : Tell me my firend, of the 20,000 or 120,000, how many of those are innocent and how many are the enemy?
it doesn't matter. it simply doesn't matter. the fact is that innocent iraqi citizens (be it 1,000 or 10,000) are seeing their loved ones die, by the thousands since we invaded their country and stirred up the giant hornets nest. they don't want us there. they felt safer taking their chances with saddam. monster that he was, he was iraq's problem, not ours. how many ways can you say 'we aren't the world's policemen?' if we are, we're in big trouble, because we next have to 'liberate' (ha!) any number of other countries.
our warring activities should be restricted to those that attack us and those that develop wmd's and refuse to cooperate with world bodies. iraq did neither.
h@ts said this in post #6 :
The Republicans and their backers have pulled off a historically remarkable achievement in getting many Americans to think on this level.
let's have them think on this! bush's well kept secret.
Iraqi Civilian Deaths Increase Dramatically After Invasion
Civilian deaths have risen dramatically in Iraq since the country was invaded in March 2003, according to a survey conducted by researchers from the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health, Columbia University School of Nursing and Al-Mustansiriya University in Baghdad. The researchers found that the majority of deaths were attributed to violence, which were primarily the result of military actions by Coalition forces. Most of those killed by Coalition forces were women and children. However, the researchers stressed that they found no evidence of improper conduct by the Coalition soldiers.
The survey is the first countrywide attempt to calculate the number of civilian deaths in Iraq since the war began. The United States military does not keep records on civilian deaths and record keeping by the Iraq Ministry of Health is limited. The study is published in the October 29, 2004, online edition of The Lancet.
“Our findings need to be independently verified with a larger sample group. However, I think our survey demonstrates the importance of collecting civilian casualty information during a war and that it can be done,” said lead author Les Roberts, PhD, an associate with the Bloomberg School of Public Health’s Center for International Emergency, Disaster and Refugee Studies.
The researchers conducted their survey in September 2004. They randomly selected 33 neighborhoods of 30 homes from across Iraq and interviewed the residents about the number and ages of the people living in each home. Over 7,800 Iraqis were included. Residents were questioned about the number of births and deaths that occurred in the household since January 2002. Information was also collected about the causes and circumstances of each death. When possible, the deaths were verified with a death certificate or other documentation.
The researchers compared the mortality rate among civilians in Iraq during the 14.6 months prior to the March 2003 invasion with the 17.8 month period following the invasion. The sample group reported 46 deaths prior to the March 2003 and 142 deaths following the invasion. The results were calculated twice, both with and without information from the city of Falluja. The researchers felt the excessive violence from combat in Falluja could skew the overall mortality rates. Excluding information from Falluja, they estimate that 100,000 more Iraqis died than would have been expected had the invasion not occurred. Eighty-four percent of the deaths were reported to be caused by the actions of Coalition forces and 95 percent of those deaths were due to air strikes and artillery.
“There is a real necessity for accurate monitoring of civilian deaths during combat situations. Otherwise it is impossible to know the extent of the problems civilians may be facing or how to protect them,” explained study co-author Gilbert Burnham, MD, associate professor of International Health at the Bloomberg School of Public Health and director of the Center for International, Disaster and Refugee Studies.
“Mortality before and after the 2003 invasion of Iraq: cluster sample survey” was written by Les Roberts, Riyadh Lafta, Richard Garfield, Jamal Khudhairi and Gilbert Burnham. Roberts and Burham are with the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health. Lafta and Khudhairi are with the College of Medicine at Al-Mustansiriya University in Baghdad. Garfield is with the Columbia University School of Nursing.
The study was funded by the Center for International Emergency, Disaster and Refugee Studies at the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health and the Small Arms Survey in Geneva, Switzerland.
As our President has said on many occasions. All they have to do is tell us to leave. We will. Sounds simple huh?
The problem is, you only post from people or sources who share your opinion.
I have to do the same. I hear the same thing every day. The people do not want us to leave until they have their goverment functioning in a way that allows them to decide their future.
When the Election is over and they want us to leave, I believe we will.
"Those who know nothing of Islam pretend that Islam counsels against war. Those who say this are witless." ~Ayatollah Khomeini
USA1 said this in post #8 : As our President has said on many occasions. All they have to do is tell us to leave. We will. Sounds simple huh?
Bush says all kinds of meaningless things to confuse and mislead his followers. Who are "they" that can tell the US military to leave? Members of Allawi's government are being assassinated inside Iraq.
USA1 said this in post #9 : Well kept secret? That's a joke right? You did get this off the internet did you not?
of course i did! the point is that bush won't talk about it, and didn't talk about it, especially before the election.
nevertheless, there's enough blame to go around. kerry should have exploited it and shouted it from the rooftops. that, and a lot of other things he didn't do. i earnestly believe that he thought the american public would see through a lot of things that they never bothered to even look at, and to this very day are unaware of.
American public? Aren't YOU American public? What makes you think that there aren't any Americans smarter than you or that you are the ONLY American to see what ever it is you see?
Come on... get a grip.
"Those who know nothing of Islam pretend that Islam counsels against war. Those who say this are witless." ~Ayatollah Khomeini
USA1 said this in post #13 : American public? Aren't YOU American public? What makes you think that there aren't any Americans smarter than you or that you are the ONLY American to see what ever it is you see?
Come on... get a grip.
gotta grip, 1. not everyone, like you and i, read the papers every day, watch the news every day, browse the Net every day, and listen to talk shows every day. they just know that their brother is voting this way or that, or that 'my family has always voted republican', and just plain avoid politics altogether. i know lots and lots of people like that, don't you? i'd venture to guess that at least 40% to 50% of the country could care less about political matters, at least not enough to be aware of many of the controversial matters that get debated on this message board on a daily basis. they turn out to vote (that's the problem) but are not fully informed enough to make well reasoned decisions.
the proof is in the pudding. a scientific poll before the election revealed that something over 40% of the people believed that there were WMDs in iraq and that we were attacked by saddam hussein. that fact speaks for itself!
11-18-2004 10:30 PM
