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Caroleeena
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Widespread Voter Fraud 2004 post #1  quote:



Over the course of this election, I followed the dirty tricks all over the country to disenfranchise voters. I heard of so many, in fact, that I started recording them and doing a little research of my own and I found some patterns. Check out how many of these are in swing states, the voters they affect and the party affiliation of the people who have resigned in the cases where blame was actually assigned and, especially, check out what happened to the folks who got cold busted!

Florida ? Broward County - 58,000 voters in largely Democratic Broward County Florida never received their absentee ballots. The US Postal Service says they were delivered to the elections office but does not know what happened to them after that.

Florida ? Manatee County and other counties all over Florida ? People claiming to be "election officials" are turning up on the doorsteps of voters who requested absentee ballots, offering to collect and turn in their ballots. One Pasco woman said she was led to believe they were from the elections office and that she told the strangers she hadn't completed the ballot, but they took it anyway. The woman had voted for Kerry but election officials were unable to find a record of her vote ever being turned in. "We've had a bunch of them - 100 at least," said Bob Sweat, elections supervisor for Manatee County. "It's probably going on all over the state of Florida."

Florida - Florida's secretary of state ruled that voter registrations would be deemed incomplete if those registering failed to check a box affirming their citizenship, even if they had signed an oath saying the same thing elsewhere on the form. Whose applications get rejected? A Washington Post examination of rejected applications in Duval County found three times as many were from Democrats, compared with Republicans. It also found a strong tilt toward rejection of blacks' registrations.

Florida - The case of Florida's felon list - used by state officials in 2000 to wrongly disenfranchise thousands of blacks - has been widely reported. Less widely reported has been overwhelming evidence that the errors were deliberate and continue. In an article coming next week in Harper's, Greg Palast, reveals that few of those wrongly purged are back on the voter lists. State officials have imposed Kafkaesque hurdles for voters trying to get back on the rolls. Depending on the county, those attempting to get their votes back have been required to seek clemency for crimes committed by others, or to go through quasi-judicial proceedings to prove that they are not felons with similar names.

Florida - Officials appear to be doing their best to make voting difficult for blacks who do manage to register to vote. Florida law requires local election officials provide polling places where voters can cast early ballots. Duval County is providing only one such location, while other counties with similar voting populations are providing multiple sites. And in Duval and other counties the early voting sites are miles away from precincts with black majorities.

Nevada and Oregon - Earlier this week former employees of Sproul & Associates (operating under the name Voters Outreach of America), a firm hired by the Republican National Committee to register voters, told a Nevada TV station that their supervisors systematically tore up Democratic registrations. The accusations are backed by physical evidence in the form of thousands of discarded Democratic registration forms. Officials have begun a criminal investigation into reports of similar actions by Sproul in Oregon.

Ohio - Ohio's secretary of state, J. Kenneth Blackwell, a Republican, tried to use an archaic rule about paper quality to invalidate thousands of new, heavily Democratic registrations. He said the paper was not thick enough. In this case, the courts stepped in and stopped him.

Ohio - A caller interrupting a Columbus couple's dinner earlier this week said he was from the Franklin County Board of Elections and told the elderly woman that her voting site had changed and that on Nov. 2 she and her husband should cast their ballots at a South Side precinct. This precinct is far from the elderly couple's (who are life long Democrats) home. When the woman called the Board of Elections to question the move, she was told no move had been made but that the Board of Elections had receive dozens of similar phone calls. The elections director, Matt Damschroder, said there are two scams going on that cause him concern: The caller tells voters their precincts have changed or the caller offers to pick up an absentee-ballot application, deliver the ballot to the voter and return the completed ballot to the elections office.

Wisconsin - A Republican county executive insists that this year, when everyone expects a record turnout, Milwaukee will receive fewer ballots than it got in 2000 or 2002 - a recipe for chaos at polling places serving urban, mainly Democratic voters.

South Dakota ? Six Republican staffers and campaign workers have resigned for filling out absentee ballots in the names of student registering to vote Republican and discarding the absentee ballots of voters registering to vote Democratic. Chief among the staffers was Larry Russell, head of the South Dakota GOP's get-out-the-vote operation, the Republican Victory Program. In a statement, party executive director Jason Glodt says, "The South Dakota Republican Party has a zero tolerance policy regarding such matters, and on Friday and Saturday of last week accepted the resignations of the four independent contractors who were involved in the handling of absentee ballot requests." They also accepted the resignation of Russell. Today comes news, however, that Russell -- still under investigation in South Dakota -- has been reassigned to run President Bush's get-out-the-vote operation in Ohio. And Russell's bringing along with him to Ohio three of the five other GOP staffers who had to resign in South Dakota and who are also under investigation in that state.

New Hampshire ? In February, the Executive Director of the New Hampshire Republican party, Chuck McGee, resigned when it was revealed that the state party had hired a telemarketing firm to jam the phone lines of the Democratic get-out-the-vote operation. At that time, McGee fingered Jim Tobin, the New England regional director of the Bush-Cheney campaign, as one of his accomplices. Tobin, however, did not resign from the Bush-Cheney position until last Friday, months after the voter fraud charges were filed.

Pennsylvania ? Bush/Cheney campaign staff submitted last-minute requests on Friday in Philadelphia to relocate 63 polling places. Of the 63 requests for changes, 53 are in political divisions where the population of white voters is less than 10 percent.

That?s what happened BEFORE the election. Here?s what happened the day OF the election:

Ohio - An error with an electronic voting system gave President Bush 3,893 extra votes in suburban Columbus, according to elections officials in Franklin County. Franklin County's unofficial results had Bush receiving 4,258 votes to Democrat John Kerry's 260 votes in a precinct in Gahanna. Records show only 638 voters cast ballots in that precinct. Bush actually received only 365 votes in the precinct, according to Matthew Damschroder, director of the Franklin County Board of Elections.

South Dakota - Massive voter intimidation was reported in South Dakota where, on November 2nd, white men walked behind the back bumper of every vehicle belonging to a Native American Indian who'd come to vote and recorded their license plate number.

North Carolina - And then is the case of the 4,500 votes ?accidentally lost? by voting machines in largely Democratic Carteret County right here in North Carolina. Apparently the machines only held 3,000 votes instead of the 10,000 each the election officials ?thought? they held.

Ohio - Finally, there was the last minute, state-sanctioned intimidation of voters in Ohio, where Republican pollsters were allowed to harass voters in the polling places about their right to vote.

In Youngstown, Ohio, and South Florida, numerous voters complained that when they tried to cast votes for Kerry, the machines instead recorded their votes for Bush.

President Jimmy Carter citing the experience of his Carter Center in monitoring international elections, said "some basic international requirements for a fair election are missing in Florida." Most significant, he said, were requirements that a nonpartisan electoral commission or official organize and conduct the electoral process and that voting procedures be uniform for all citizens. He said Florida's top election official in 2000, Secretary of State Katherine Harris, was "highly partisan" and that Harris' successor, Glenda Hood, has shown "the same strong bias." He said Gov. Jeb Bush, the president's brother, had done little to "correct these departures from principles of fair and equal treatment."

Now, it was my purpose to investigate ALL voter fraud. I didn't overlook or fail to report incidents by Democrats or other partys. I simply didn't find any.

The abuses I did find, though, are not aberrations. They're the inevitable result of a Republican Party culture in which dirty tricks that distort the vote are rewarded, not punished. It's a culture that will persist until voters - whose will still does count, if expressed strongly enough - hold that party accountable.

All in all, more than 30,000 complaints have been gathered from across the country related to election day voting. In the midst of such turmoil, it's crucial that an independent authoritative investigation be undertaken to sort this all out.

I am saying it out loud now -- I think George Bush stole this election. AGAIN!


Old Post 11-11-2004 01:42 AM
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esskay
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post #2  quote:

Caroleena - did you compile this or was it authored by someone else?

Old Post 11-11-2004 01:46 AM
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Caroleeena
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post #3  quote:

No, I compiled it myself. I did it because I was afraid this information would be lost and I think it's important to document who, what, when, where and why about this whole thing.

Old Post 11-11-2004 02:03 AM
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esskay
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post #4  quote:

good stuff - thank you for collecting all this up and posting it! I'm moving the thread to the election forum..

Old Post 11-11-2004 03:21 AM
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Jim Nasium
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post #5  quote:

it's interesting to note that the exit polling in the states expected to go to bush parallelled the actual vote for bush. the exit polling in the battleground states that were leaning toward kerry and which showed kerry projected as the winner, actually went for bush.

granted, not every voter tells the truth about his vote when polled, but the margin of error in statistical samples allows for that. historically, exit polls have been very accurate. this one, mysteriously, was inaccurate, but only in favor of bush in the critical states. makes one wonder - how many democratic voters did not get to vote for one reason or another and how many of those that did vote had their votes not counted. we've heard a lot of horror stories. caroleeena articulated some of them.


Old Post 11-11-2004 03:38 AM
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Caroleeena
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post #6  quote:

quote:
Jim Nasium said this in post #5 :
the exit polling in the battleground states that were leaning toward kerry and which showed kerry projected as the winner, actually went for bush.


That IS interesting to note.

I'm sure these are not the only such incidents; they are just the incidents I documented as this process went along. I'm sure we'll be hearing about more and more...


Old Post 11-11-2004 03:56 AM
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post #7  quote:

Still going on over the election being stolen??

Is this gonna be the same argument everytime a Democrat doesnt get voted in...

Its like Peter crying Wolf...eventually people just dont believe it anymore...


Old Post 11-11-2004 03:33 PM
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Caroleeena
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post #8  quote:

I knew when I logged on to post the data I'd been accruing that some people would ridicule me. It's mean spirited but I expected it and if I backed down because of it, I would be doing a disservice to our country.

If these voting irregularities affected the person you had voted for, perhaps you would feel differently. That's a pretty selfish "it's not my problem" kind of attitude. But the truth is, it IS your problem. It's all our problem.

As you ridicule me and others franticly try to assure me that I should just ignore the mounting evidence of voter fraud and "move on" or "get over it", the outcry continues to mount. The foreign press (not being almost exclusively owned by rich Republicans) has been quicker to pick up this story but MSNBC is now starting to cover the issue as eivdence mounts and more and more Congressmen are joining the list of those calling for a investigation. Considering how Bush tried to block the 9/11 investigation and only gave in because of public outcry, this investigation could also be quashed unless enough people speak out.

We deserve to know whether or not our election system has been corrupted. We deserve better than a voting system that allows administrations and political machines to push through highly unpopular agendas because they cannot be removed by a ballot driven backlash. One day that unpopular agenda may be one YOU don't agree with either.

I will continue to push for the investigation. I encourage you to also. Write to the editor, email your Congressional Representatives, don't let it drop until we get some real and honest answers.


Old Post 11-11-2004 03:49 PM
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USA1
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post #9  quote:

I had an exit poller ask me when I finished. I lied. Ha, that'll show 'em to stick their nose in my private business.
I voted for Bush.


Old Post 11-11-2004 03:53 PM
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Caroleeena
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post #10  quote:

I don't really have an opinion one way or the other about exit polls. Do you think exit polls are bad? If so, why?

I can see one benefit to exit polls I guess -- it lets us know when their is a major discrepency between how people "say" they voted and the actual votes that were tabulated. I have heard anecdotal reports about exit polls in Florida. I am told that the places expected to go to Bush also indicated via exit polling that Bush had won them and then, in turn, the count indicated that Bush had won them. I am told also though that SOME places expected to go to Kerry also indicated via exit polling that Kerry had won in those locations but then the vote counts indicated Bush had won. That certainly gives me pause but I need to know more about it before I'm willing to speculate about it.


Old Post 11-11-2004 04:06 PM
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esskay
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post #11  quote:

quote:
mystic said this in post #7 :
Still going on over the election being stolen??

Is this gonna be the same argument everytime a Democrat doesnt get voted in...

Its like Peter crying Wolf...eventually people just dont believe it anymore...



quote:
Caroleeena said this in post #8 :
I knew when I logged on to post the data I'd been accruing that some people would ridicule me. It's mean spirited but I expected it and if I backed down because of it, I would be doing a disservice to our country.

If these voting irregularities affected the person you had voted for, perhaps you would feel differently. That's a pretty selfish "it's not my problem" kind of attitude. But the truth is, it IS your problem. It's all our problem.



I agree with Caroleena's comments and expected this reaction to some extent as well. There's simply no reason to attempt blasting discussions like this out of the sky with simplistic objections just because you don't want to hear it or wish people would shut up about it.

Personally, if there is fraud in play - I bloody well want to know about it; why wouldn't you? Even if it's a "little fraud" that doesn't change the results of the election itself. People need to know when & where politicians are being dirty, rotten crooks.


Old Post 11-11-2004 05:39 PM
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Jim Nasium
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post #12  quote:

to listen to a couple of people on this forum, hundreds, if not thousands, of voters in ohio & florida would have had to intentionally lie to exit pollers for the same devious reason these two people did, in order to skew the results. i highly doubt it happened in such proportions.

Old Post 11-11-2004 06:04 PM
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Edward Teach
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post #13  quote:

Maybe getting the whole story is important

quote:
Caroleeena said this in post #1 :
Over the course of this election, I followed the dirty tricks all over the country to disenfranchise voters. I heard of so many, in fact, that I started recording them and doing a little research of my own and I found some patterns. Check out how many of these are in swing states, the voters they affect and the party affiliation of the people who have resigned in the cases where blame was actually assigned and, especially, check out what happened to the folks who got cold busted!

Florida ? Broward County - 58,000 voters in largely Democratic Broward County Florida never received their absentee ballots. The US Postal Service says they were delivered to the elections office but does not know what happened to them after that.

``We have employees that we assign to handle the absentee ballots that come in,'' said Enola C. Rice, a Postal Service spokeswoman in South Florida. ``So all the absentee ballots that are received by the Postal Service are processed and delivered immediately.''

Absentee voters who did not receive a ballot can request another, which officials said would be sent by overnight mail.

Democratic lawmakers called on Palm Beach elections supervisor Theresa LePore to take out newspaper ads informing voters of their options if they request but don't receive absentee ballots. They said they have been inundated with calls from voters who are confused about the process, or who haven't received ballots.

LePore also blamed the postal service. She said her office had mailed more than 128,000 ballots by early this week, and another 7,000 go out daily.
Sorry forgot to get the source on this one.
quote:



Florida ? Manatee County and other counties all over Florida ? People claiming to be "election officials" are turning up on the doorsteps of voters who requested absentee ballots, offering to collect and turn in their ballots. One Pasco woman said she was led to believe they were from the elections office and that she told the strangers she hadn't completed the ballot, but they took it anyway. The woman had voted for Kerry but election officials were unable to find a record of her vote ever being turned in. "We've had a bunch of them - 100 at least," said Bob Sweat, elections supervisor for Manatee County. "It's probably going on all over the state of Florida."
This one is mysterious in that it is not known if this actually happened, no one has be caught and no one has been accused. Only one person has made the claim.
Source: http://www.sptimes.com/2004/10/22/P...ef_warns_.shtml
quote:


Florida - Florida's secretary of state ruled that voter registrations would be deemed incomplete if those registering failed to check a box affirming their citizenship, even if they had signed an oath saying the same thing elsewhere on the form. Whose applications get rejected? A Washington Post examination of rejected applications in Duval County found three times as many were from Democrats, compared with Republicans. It also found a strong tilt toward rejection of blacks' registrations.
By LAW Only Citizen of the United States are allowed to vote. Three of the state's largest counties -- Miami-Dade, Orange and Leon -- have decided to ignore the box if the voters affirm their citizenship with their signatures.

Secretary of State Glenda Hood, Florida's chief elections officer, said her office cannot make them change their minds. But she told the other 64 counties that state law requires voters to check the citizenship box, and if they didn't they are disqualified from voting.

There are also plans by state law enforcement and the U.S. Justice Department to investigate the strategies of third-party groups.

Hood said those concerns came from reports involving party registrations being switched after forms were filled out. There were also allegations that people made up names and that photocopies of forms were being sent in instead of the originals.

The citizenship-box dispute came to light with a memo by Hood's general counsel, Richard A. Perez, that was sent to the state's 67 county elections supervisors Friday.

It said voter-registration forms should be deemed incomplete if applicants did not check the box and sign the oath.

Opponents argue that state law merely calls for "an indication that the applicant is a citizen of the United States."

Hood counters that [b]THE LAW STATES that the form must be filled out in its entirety.

Elections officials including Hood and Division of Elections Director Dawn K. Roberts said the fault lies with many of the groups gathering registration applications that have been sloppy with their methods.

Jenny Nash, a spokeswoman for the Division of Elections, said state and federal law are specific on the matter.

She said the application states that Items Nos. 2-8 are required, and the citizenship box is No. 2.

"Federal law says the state must provide 'yes' and 'no' boxes," she said.

Florida laws also demands voters to check the box and says if the applicant answers "no," the form says they should not complete the form.
quote:



Florida - The case of Florida's felon list - used by state officials in 2000 to wrongly disenfranchise thousands of blacks - has been widely reported. Less widely reported has been overwhelming evidence that the errors were deliberate and continue. In an article coming next week in Harper's, Greg Palast, reveals that few of those wrongly purged are back on the voter lists. State officials have imposed Kafkaesque hurdles for voters trying to get back on the rolls. Depending on the county, those attempting to get their votes back have been required to seek clemency for crimes committed by others, or to go through quasi-judicial proceedings to prove that they are not felons with similar names.
Florida scraps felon vote list
The list of 47,000 people is too flawed to be used to strike felons from voting rolls. County election supervisors express relief.
By MATTHEW WAITE, Times Staff Writer
Published July 11, 2004

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Nine days after making the names of more than 47,000 potential felon voters public, state officials have scrapped the entire list, saying it was too flawed to be trusted.
Source:http://www.sptimes.com/2004/07/11/S...ps_felon_.shtml
quote:


Florida - Officials appear to be doing their best to make voting difficult for blacks who do manage to register to vote. Florida law requires local election officials provide polling places where voters can cast early ballots. Duval County is providing only one such location, while other counties with similar voting populations are providing multiple sites. And in Duval and other counties the early voting sites are miles away from precincts with black majorities.
Seems African American voters are praising the voting in this election according to http://www.blackvoternetwork.com/blackvote.htm. And as it turns out Bush has at least doubled the black votes voting Republican in this election.
quote:


Nevada and Oregon - Earlier this week former employees of Sproul & Associates (operating under the name Voters Outreach of America), a firm hired by the Republican National Committee to register voters, told a Nevada TV station that their supervisors systematically tore up Democratic registrations. The accusations are backed by physical evidence in the form of thousands of discarded Democratic registration forms. Officials have begun a criminal investigation into reports of similar actions by Sproul in Oregon.
Yes there were some bad apples. This is still under investigation by the FBI
quote:


Ohio - Ohio's secretary of state, J. Kenneth Blackwell, a Republican, tried to use an archaic rule about paper quality to invalidate thousands of new, heavily Democratic registrations. He said the paper was not thick enough. In this case, the courts stepped in and stopped him.
Blackwell's office has given the Cuyahoga board a special dispensation to accept the newsprint registration forms. The requirement is because the forms are designed to be mailed like post-cards and must be thick enough to survive mechanical sorters at the U.S. Post Office, according to Blackwell's spokesman Carlo LoParo.

"Our directive stands and it is specifically in place to protect new registrants to make sure the forms are not destroyed," LoParo said.
Source: http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/092904W.shtml
quote:



Ohio - A caller interrupting a Columbus couple's dinner earlier this week said he was from the Franklin County Board of Elections and told the elderly woman that her voting site had changed and that on Nov. 2 she and her husband should cast their ballots at a South Side precinct. This precinct is far from the elderly couple's (who are life long Democrats) home. When the woman called the Board of Elections to question the move, she was told no move had been made but that the Board of Elections had receive dozens of similar phone calls. The elections director, Matt Damschroder, said there are two scams going on that cause him concern: The caller tells voters their precincts have changed or the caller offers to pick up an absentee-ballot application, deliver the ballot to the voter and return the completed ballot to the elections office.
I have not been able to find an article on this. Can you provide a link?
quote:


Wisconsin - A Republican county executive insists that this year, when everyone expects a record turnout, Milwaukee will receive fewer ballots than it got in 2000 or 2002 - a recipe for chaos at polling places serving urban, mainly Democratic voters.
The city of Milwaukee requested approximately 2,500 ballots per ward for November 2004. The county has agreed to print approximately 1,600 per ward. This is less than the 2000 ballots per ward in 2002 and even less than the 1,700 ballots per ward in the previous presidential election, November 2000.

Using one yardstick to measure just how high turnout could be, Mayor Barrett said that in the 2002 election, 8,000 in total voted absentee. By comparison, 12,000 people have already voted absentee this election, and 19 days remain.
Source: http://actforvictory.org/act.php/tr...ction_officials
[b]The question here is "Did they run out of ballots or did they print more?

Project Vote, a voter registration group, is under investigation amid allegations of illegally signing up people in Racine and Milwaukee to vote. The organization's actions have outraged Republicans who accuse the group, which targets Democratic areas, of attempting to influence the Nov. 2 presidential election.
Source: http://www.journaltimes.com/article.../iq_3138370.txt[quote]


Old Post 11-11-2004 06:12 PM
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Edward Teach
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post #14  quote:

South Dakota ? Six Republican staffers and campaign workers have resigned for filling out absentee ballots in the names of student registering to vote Republican and discarding the absentee ballots of voters registering to vote Democratic. Chief among the staffers was Larry Russell, head of the South Dakota GOP's get-out-the-vote operation, the Republican Victory Program. In a statement, party executive director Jason Glodt says, "The South Dakota Republican Party has a zero tolerance policy regarding such matters, and on Friday and Saturday of last week accepted the resignations of the four independent contractors who were involved in the handling of absentee ballot requests." They also accepted the resignation of Russell. Today comes news, however, that Russell -- still under investigation in South Dakota -- has been reassigned to run President Bush's get-out-the-vote operation in Ohio. And Russell's bringing along with him to Ohio three of the five other GOP staffers who had to resign in South Dakota and who are also under investigation in that state. [/quote]Still under investigation
quote:


New Hampshire ? In February, the Executive Director of the New Hampshire Republican party, Chuck McGee, resigned when it was revealed that the state party had hired a telemarketing firm to jam the phone lines of the Democratic get-out-the-vote operation. At that time, McGee fingered Jim Tobin, the New England regional director of the Bush-Cheney campaign, as one of his accomplices. Tobin, however, did not resign from the Bush-Cheney position until last Friday, months after the voter fraud charges were filed.
This was a 2002 election problem not a 2004 problem.
CONCORD, N.H. - The former executive director of the state Republican Party has been charged with conspiring to jam six Democratic phone banks on Election Day 2002.
Source: http://www.timesdispatch.com/servle...776605120&path=!news!vaapwire&s=1045855935241
quote:


Pennsylvania ? Bush/Cheney campaign staff submitted last-minute requests on Friday in Philadelphia to relocate 63 polling places. Of the 63 requests for changes, 53 are in political divisions where the population of white voters is less than 10 percent.
Here are the voting places the Republican wanted changed

One of the polling places is in a district office of state Sen. Vince Fumo, a Democrat. Two are in local bars, 43 are allegedly inaccessible to the handicapped and 17 are in businesses or homes where voters could be intimidated, according to the requests.

"We're more concerned about people's comfort," said Williams, an African-American whose name is on 28 requests. "This is not about creating some stir in the election or denying anyone the right to vote."
There is a lot more to the story
Source: http://www.independent-media.tv/ite...=Under+Reported
quote:


That?s what happened BEFORE the election. Here?s what happened the day OF the election:

Ohio - An error with an electronic voting system gave President Bush 3,893 extra votes in suburban Columbus, according to elections officials in Franklin County. Franklin County's unofficial results had Bush receiving 4,258 votes to Democrat John Kerry's 260 votes in a precinct in Gahanna. Records show only 638 voters cast ballots in that precinct. Bush actually received only 365 votes in the precinct, according to Matthew Damschroder, director of the Franklin County Board of Elections.
Gahanna Precinct 1B has three voting machines. After the polling station closed, the cartridges were taken to a computerized reading station.

When one of the cartridges from the precinct was plugged into a reader, it generated the faulty number.

The reader also recorded zero votes in the race between Arlene Shoemaker and Paula Brooks for county commissioner.

Damschroder said the cartridge was retested yesterday and there were no problems. He couldn?t explain why the computer reader malfunctioned.

When workers checked the cartridge against memory banks in the voting machine yesterday, each showed that 115 people voted for Bush on that machine. With the other two machines, the total for Bush in the precinct added up to 365 votes.

So far, Damschroder said, no other problems have surfaced.

When election workers do the official canvass, all cartridges from voting machines are rechecked.
Source: http://www.dispatch.com/election/el...1105-A6-01.html
quote:


South Dakota - Massive voter intimidation was reported in South Dakota where, on November 2nd, white men walked behind the back bumper of every vehicle belonging to a Native American Indian who'd come to vote and recorded their license plate number.
Not sure where this happened because I can't seem to find an article. I did however find this article: PINE RIDGE -- Despite allegations of both Democrats and Republicans unfairly influencing reservation voters in pre-election voting, Election Day 2004 went off seemingly without a hitch on the Pine Ridge Indian Reservation.
Under close scrutiny from Republican and Democratic poll-watchers, reservation residents turned out in record numbers Tuesday to cast their ballots in state, national and tribal elections. But observers and voters alike said they had heard no reports of voters being intimidated, bribed, or wrongly turned away from the polls.
Source: http://www.rapidcityjournal.com/art.../top/news01.prt
Oh found this article: http://slate.msn.com/id/2109096/fr/rss/
quote:


North Carolina - And then is the case of the 4,500 votes ?accidentally lost? by voting machines in largely Democratic Carteret County right here in North Carolina. Apparently the machines only held 3,000 votes instead of the 10,000 each the election officials ?thought? they held.
This was not voter fraud, it was a mistake which affected voters of both parties.
Source: More than 4,500 North Carolina votes lost because of mistake in voting machine capacity
quote:


Ohio - Finally, there was the last minute, state-sanctioned intimidation of voters in Ohio, where Republican pollsters were allowed to harass voters in the polling places about their right to vote.
Can't find an article on this either except this finding.
But in another decision today, the 6th Circuit Court of Appeals ruled that GOP poll watchers weren't intimidating Ohio voters by checking their names against a list of registered voters.
Source: http://slate.msn.com/id/2109096/fr/rss/
quote:


In Youngstown, Ohio, and South Florida, numerous voters complained that when they tried to cast votes for Kerry, the machines instead recorded their votes for Bush.
Can't find an article on this
quote:


President Jimmy Carter citing the experience of his Carter Center in monitoring international elections, said "some basic international requirements for a fair election are missing in Florida." Most significant, he said, were requirements that a nonpartisan electoral commission or official organize and conduct the electoral process and that voting procedures be uniform for all citizens. He said Florida's top election official in 2000, Secretary of State Katherine Harris, was "highly partisan" and that Harris' successor, Glenda Hood, has shown "the same strong bias." He said Gov. Jeb Bush, the president's brother, had done little to "correct these departures from principles of fair and equal treatment."

Now, it was my purpose to investigate ALL voter fraud. I didn't overlook or fail to report incidents by Democrats or other partys. I simply didn't find any.
You sure didn't look very hard
quote:


The abuses I did find, though, are not aberrations. They're the inevitable result of a Republican Party culture in which dirty tricks that distort the vote are rewarded, not punished. It's a culture that will persist until voters - whose will still does count, if expressed strongly enough - hold that party accountable.

All in all, more than 30,000 complaints have been gathered from across the country related to election day voting. In the midst of such turmoil, it's crucial that an independent authoritative investigation be undertaken to sort this all out.

I am saying it out loud now -- I think George Bush stole this election. AGAIN! [/B]

When you find these things you really need to look for the investigation around it or try to find some sort of findings concerning it. Understand that you will find lots of accusations on both sides and many of them unfounded or disproved or not valid.


Old Post 11-11-2004 06:12 PM
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post #15  quote:

quote:
Jim Nasium said this in post #12 :
to listen to a couple of people on this forum, hundreds, if not thousands, of voters in ohio & florida would have had to intentionally lie to exit pollers for the same devious reason these two people did, in order to skew the results. i highly doubt it happened in such proportions.
It's all dependent on how the poll is conducted, who is polled etc. If they polled all women then it would be skewed toward Kerry. This is under investigations and the media WILL find out the answer since they paid MILLIONS for this exit poll information.


Old Post 11-11-2004 06:15 PM
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post #16  quote:

quote:
USA1 said this in post #9 :
I had an exit poller ask me when I finished. I lied. Ha, that'll show 'em to stick their nose in my private business.
I voted for Bush.


My husband did the exact same thing...he told them he voted for Kerry, he didnt.

I really dont agree with these exit polls...I think its nosing into people's political views and I dont think its anyone's business.

I think many people lied just to spite them.


Old Post 11-11-2004 06:44 PM
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post #17  quote:

Here is another incident that I have just learned about. Apparently in Broward County, Florida, (another largely Democratic county) electronic voting machines counted backwards: as more people voted, the official vote count went down. Here is more information about this particular account: http://www.palmbeachpost.com/politi...WVOTE_1105.html

Six members of Congress are now demanding an investigation to answer questions about these issues. The decision on whether or not there will be an investigation could come as soon as Monday. Join us in supporting the call for one now, at:

http://www.moveon.org/investigatethevote/


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post #18  quote:

quote:
Sean Kelly said this in post #11 :






I agree with Caroleena's comments and expected this reaction to some extent as well. There's simply no reason to attempt blasting discussions like this out of the sky with simplistic objections just because you don't want to hear it or wish people would shut up about it.

Personally, if there is fraud in play - I bloody well want to know about it; why wouldn't you? Even if it's a "little fraud" that doesn't change the results of the election itself. People need to know when & where politicians are being dirty, rotten crooks.


Sean,

My intention was not to ridicule caroleena as she suggested. Nor was it to shut anyone up as you suggested. (Though I might suggest that you are wanting me to do so).

I am also not implying fraud doesnt happen in ANY election, whether it be dem or republican...

Certainly we have seen fraud on both sides for many many years...Im just not sure that there will ever be a "fix" to the situation.

Eventually though...the argument does get old.


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post #19  quote:

quote:
mystic said this in post #18 :

(Though I might suggest that you are wanting me to do so).


False. I am merely observing that a high percentage of your initial responses to controversial topics tends to be the equivalent of, "oh dear, not this again. give me a break, been there, done that, got the T-shirt, can we move on now?" If anything, this is what is tiresome when some people DO want to discuss the topic. If you don't want to discuss it, then don't! Even I (yes, opinionated me of all people) steer completely clear of certain topics that I just don't care to weigh in on - I try to lead by example like that.

quote:

Eventually though...the argument does get old.


I think it's old to you because you don't care.


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post #20  quote:

quote:
Sean Kelly said this in post #19 :


False. I am merely observing that a high percentage of your initial responses to controversial topics tends to be the equivalent of, "oh dear, not this again. give me a break, been there, done that, got the T-shirt, can we move on now?" If anything, this is what is tiresome when some people DO want to discuss the topic. If you don't want to discuss it, then don't! Even I (yes, opinionated me of all people) steer completely clear of certain topics that I just don't care to weigh in on - I try to lead by example like that.

Im sure you do think that I do that....though Ive gotten the same exact responses back when I have tried to say things...and funny, I never see you say those same things to others.


I think it's old to you because you don't care.

Again, you would assume that.



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post #21  quote:

And here's another issue I've just learned about. Yesterday, California settled an electronic voting suit against Diebold (a Republican-owned company that makes voting machines) for $2.6 million dollars for selling the state faulty voting equipment. This faulty equipment forced at least 6,000 of 316,000 voters in Alameda County, just east of San Francisco, to use backup paper ballots instead of the paperless voting terminals. And, in San Diego County, a power surge disabled the faulty machines and resulted in hundreds of touch-screens that wouldn't start when the polls opened, forcing election officials to turn voters away from the polls.

http://www.sacbee.com/state_wire/v-print/story/113


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post #22  quote:

quote:
Sean Kelly said this in post #19 :


False. I am merely observing that a high percentage of your initial responses to controversial topics tends to be the equivalent of, "oh dear, not this again. (...)"

Im sure you do think that I do that....though Ive gotten the same exact responses back when I have tried to say things...and funny, I never see you say those same things to others.


Think? No, I have observed that you do that. I can quote your responses directly from at least 5 recent threads. If you don't see me do that to other people, well I'm sorry, can't help you there. I don't single you out any more than I do anyone else. Further, there are a quarter million posts on this forum right now and if you think I personally read them all, I've got news for ya..


quote:

I think it's old to you because you don't care.

Again, you would assume that.


Well yes, I do think that - but what's your point? If you come into a discussion like this and your only comment is "bah humbug, this is a tired old topic!" what is one to conclude other than that you in fact do not care about the topic? I'm incredulous at how argumentative you've become in the last 6 months or so. Not that that's shunned in a debate forum, but you need to be prepared to take some flack for it.


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post #23  quote:

quote:
Caroleeena said this in post #21 :
.. Yesterday, California settled an electronic voting suit against Diebold (a Republican-owned company that makes voting machines) for $2.6 million dollars for selling the state faulty voting equipment. This faulty equipment forced at least 6,000 of 316,000 voters in Alameda County, just east of San Francisco, to use backup paper ballots instead of the paperless voting terminals. And, in San Diego County, a power surge disabled the faulty machines and resulted in hundreds of touch-screens that wouldn't start when the polls opened, forcing election officials to turn voters away from the polls.


How is a power-surge that damages unprotected equipment the fault of the equipment manufacturer, and how exactly does 6,000 legacy (paper) ballots equate to $2.6M in value? This sounds more than a little off..


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post #24  quote:

Just goes to show you, you can't believe EVERYTHING you read.

Kerry said today, "We are NOT disputing the election at all, we lost". Kerry's campaign advisor said, "We lost and we are not ivestigating any voter fraud, we are only looking for ways to improve the system now".

If Kerry is over it, so should we.
I also heard of a new syndrome. 'Post Election Stress Syndrome'. Apparently people wnat to move to Italy, Spain and Latin America because they feel the country is going in the wrong direction.
2 words. Good bye.


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post #25  quote:

I'm not interested in overturning election results any more than it would seem Kerry is. But I am still interested to know if there are fraudulent activities taking place - aren't you?

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post #26  quote:

I agree Sean.
The kinks need to be ironed out for upcoming elections.
Too bad this was a trial run with the electronic machines and had huge ramifications!

We need to DEMAND a paper trail for these computer "voting" machines.


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post #27  quote:

I don't care who won in the election, our election system needs an overhaul and letting private companies do the work has some obvious problems. I would be more in favor of some more nationalized standards for elections, but then you get into arguments over states' rights. But I think states' rights can take a back seat to this if we can get a comprehensve system that doesn't have so many problems.

As usual, people that lean towards Republicans don't like to see these stories and think that if it happens to a number of Republicans, then the problem is neutralized. The problem with this attitude is that the issue still remains, no one should lose their vote or be disenfranchised.

I think the reason you hear a lot of problems occuring in Democratic areas is because these problems with voting tend to happen in more densely populated areas, and if you look at the map based on counties, densely populated areas are usually Democratic. So problems with our voting system may tend to hurt those on the Democrat side more.

As for the lying on exit polling, I think that argument is a load of crap because you would see this to be more widespread if people were lying. The fact that you have near uniformity of exit polling in comparison to votes raises the idea that you have an anomaly just based on statistical analysis. If the entire country has accurate exit polling, and you have discrepancies in a few states, those states need to investigated for problems. To say that the reason is people lied on the exit polls is completely unscientific because you've done absolutely no analysis. But that tends to be an argument that people think is legitamite. When you really can't argue the opposing view with support, just say, "I lied on my ballot, so many others did too." As if that statement means anything. Pfft...


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post #28  quote:

I will return to address the other issues and questions you folks have asked me later tonight. I have to step out now. But I will answer the Diebold question before I go because I can lay my hands on that information quickly.

Diebold contributed $100,000 to the Republican National Convention in 2000 and another $25,000 to the RNC in 2001. Here's an article about that:

http://www.newsmeat.com/fec/bystate...20&last=DIEBOLD

I don't think a company making voting machines should be contributing to any political party. It just sets up a situation for mistrust from the get go.


Old Post 11-11-2004 10:18 PM
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post #29  quote:

quote:
Sean Kelly said this in post #22 :


Think? No, I have observed that you do that. I can quote your responses directly from at least 5 recent threads. If you don't see me do that to other people, well I'm sorry, can't help you there. I don't single you out any more than I do anyone else. Further, there are a quarter million posts on this forum right now and if you think I personally read them all, I've got news for ya..


But you seem to forget that many of these posts eventually repeat themselves...Im not saying that there are multiple threads...but the conversations have come up time and time again, and I dont think its wrong for others to come in and say that this is a tired old argument, considering its been stated in threads (whether it be the topic or not) more times than not.



Well yes, I do think that - but what's your point? If you come into a discussion like this and your only comment is "bah humbug, this is a tired old topic!" what is one to conclude other than that you in fact do not care about the topic? I'm incredulous at how argumentative you've become in the last 6 months or so. Not that that's shunned in a debate forum, but you need to be prepared to take some flack for it.


I have no problems taking flack for anything I say....Im used to that by now...as many in this place are..no matter what their opinion may be. Everyone takes flack from people that dont always agree....thats natural and I wouldnt expect anything less from people.

You think Ive become more argumentative in the last 6 months? Im no different than Ive ever been...when I feel strongly about something..am I suppose to just agree just to agree so that people dont feel Im argumentative?

I cant do that and feel right about myself....and lately I go on threads and pick out arguments I dont agree with...sometimes I pick out posts I do agree with...but many times I dont.

Like you said..debating is all about arguing a point...and Im not gonna shy away from posts when I dont agree with them just so people cant say Im an argumentative person.

How people take it then is something they take it as...not everyone is on here to make lifelong friends...sometimes its just fun to debate with people over different topics, and sometimes people (including myself) learn things they may not have known..

But I have been through this debate before, and I would agree more if it were more just in stating the truth on both sides...

See, this only the republicans committing frud just simply isnt true. When someone can come on and show a more fair-sided argument, then I would have no problem agreeing with them.

You see, I dont deny there were problems with republicans committing fraud, but Im not gonna sit down and listen to people that wont admit it happens on both ends....if they cant be open to the truth, then I say it becomes a tired argument.

Maybe that is more understandable to you...maybe not...I cant help how you feel about me though...but I guarantee that over 9,000 posts I have written that I have had many good things to say. (depending on how people view them of course).




Old Post 11-11-2004 10:36 PM
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post #30  quote:

quote:
Inner City Blue said this in post #27 :
I don't care who won in the election, our election system needs an overhaul and letting private companies do the work has some obvious problems. I would be more in favor of some more nationalized standards for elections, but then you get into arguments over states' rights. But I think states' rights can take a back seat to this if we can get a comprehensve system that doesn't have so many problems.

I said the same thing on another thread...that must have been overlooked by some, Im sure. Not said as good as you did, but I do agree, to make it more fair for everyone...it needs major overhaul!!


As usual, people that lean towards Republicans don't like to see these stories and think that if it happens to a number of Republicans, then the problem is neutralized. The problem with this attitude is that the issue still remains, no one should lose their vote or be disenfranchised.

Agreed on the last sentence, but I would argue your first comment, but I dont want to get in trouble.

I think the reason you hear a lot of problems occuring in Democratic areas is because these problems with voting tend to happen in more densely populated areas, and if you look at the map based on counties, densely populated areas are usually Democratic. So problems with our voting system may tend to hurt those on the Democrat side more.

Maybe, maybe not...but I think that comes down to what people think that election time. Im not saying everyone who are democrats voted republican, but I do know many dems that did vote Bush this year...my mom included. There really are many people that didnt agree with John Kerry or his policies and issues and didnt vote for him based on those, and his lack of telling people what exactly he was planning to do...many people are still unsure of what he really had planned.

As for the lying on exit polling, I think that argument is a load of crap because you would see this to be more widespread if people were lying.

But, what makes you think it wasnt? Do you know how many people were polled? was it all young people, women, men, old people? Its hard to argue when you dont know the answers to these questions. I can see why many would have a problem telling strangers who they were voting for in this election...either person you say, you could get slammed for it. I dont say..its none of their business as far as Im concerned.

Also....How do you know it wasnt more widespread, if you dont know they lied?? Its kind of hard to argue that when you really dont know..isnt it?



The fact that you have near uniformity of exit polling in comparison to votes raises the idea that you have an anomaly just based on statistical analysis. If the entire country has accurate exit polling, and you have discrepancies in a few states, those states need to investigated for problems. To say that the reason is people lied on the exit polls is completely unscientific because you've done absolutely no analysis.

Whats the analysis of the people polled? See, you can argue one side, but do you have the stats of those polled?

When you really can't argue the opposing view with support , just say, "I lied on my ballot, so many others did too." As if that statement means anything. Pfft...

Maybe Im confused...are you not doing the same thing? Where is your support for your stats?



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