One of the most interesting narrative themes in the Matrix trilogy is the concept of using humans as the Machines' bioelectrical energy source. Although humans, like most vertebrate and invertebrate animals, do generate variable amounts of bioelectricity within various organs such as nerves, muscles, brain and so on, the harnessing of such energy for any practicable external use is still pure science fiction today. Even animals like the electric eel which have evolved in an odd fashion to be able to generate, store and discharge up to 500 volts of electricity from its body have not been studied nor used in any way to harness useful electricity.
As things stand, there are certainly more practical and viable ways of generating electricity, such as through kinetic (windmills or waterfalls), chemical (coal, diesel or gasoline) or nuclear powered generators which convert magnetic energy into electrical energy. Perhaps if the technology was available to harness such energy, even if the amount of electricity generated is relatively small, by having large numbers of humans generating such bioelectricity is sufficient to produce useful energy for the Machines. And Matrix 1 did allude to the fact that the Machines combined the electricity generated with a 'new form of fusion' to produce all the energy they ever needed.
However, in the spirit of exploring science fiction, does anyone have any thoughts or opinions on the exploitation of humans by the Machines for bioenergy? How valid is this concept, considering the fact that even in the realm of science fiction, concepts will still need to retain some sense of realism? What about the potential viability of using bioelectricity as a source of energy in the future? And what about harnessing different types of energy from humans, such as chemical energy contained within the chemical bonds of cells within our body? Another interesting idea which was brought up in an earlier thread prior to the release of Revolutions was the use of animals other than humans to generate bioelectricity. This does make sense in some ways, as the amount of bioelectricity from bigger animals such as cows or elephants are larger than the amount produced in humans. An intriguing answer to this question was that the Machines couldn't just annihilate every human on the planet, and to keep the humans docile and in check, they used the Matrix for this purpose and to harness bioelectricity.
Any thoughts on this topic will be very welcome.
The_Rebel
"The learning and knowledge that we have, is, at the most, but little compared with that of which we are ignorant" - Plato
Last edited by The_Rebel on 11-20-2003 at 01:14 PM |
I hope that Im not deviating here but once question sticks out for me - why have we NEVER seen any animals in the real world AND in the matrix - none in Zion, none on the surface of the earth - the closest we've come is to seeing the little 'possum' type thing in the Animatrix (cant remember the episode..)
Interesting question, Rebel. I am not well versed in the sciences that would give me enough knowledge to put in a realistic opinion about the bioelectricity being feasible enough to believe, but I do have 5 children and we have made many clocks that are powered by potatoes . . .
Rebel - Morpheus does say, "combined with a form of fusion". I would think if AI were to evolve say, today, then within days they would find a way to do this, since their thinking would far exceed ours in a matter of seconds and it would be constant processing all day long for them. Of course it's science fiction, just trying to play devil's advocate and support the argument
Good points everyone. Yes Ursino, my original post did mention about the 'electricity combined with a form of fusion'. It'd be interesting to hear from someone with knowledge or expertise in nuclear fusion, maybe a nuclear physicist or someone similar, to see if that's viable or logical.
Erewhon, potato-powered clocks? That's impressive, harnessing chemical energy from food sources. Very environment-friendly and ingenious! I've heard about this technology before but I don't know much about it though.
The_Rebel
"The learning and knowledge that we have, is, at the most, but little compared with that of which we are ignorant" - Plato
I was under the impression that the Machines were using our body heat, not voltage, to produce electricity.
for some odd reason, while the word "Ganya" was still just a thought-dropping in my head, I thought it'd only be four letters. But apparently it's five. yep.
Okay here we go:
Morpheus: "The human body generates more bioelectricity than a 120 V battery and over 25,000 btu's of heat. Combined with a form of fusion, the machines had found all the energy they'd ever need."
So they use bioelectricity, body heat, and fusion.
for some odd reason, while the word "Ganya" was still just a thought-dropping in my head, I thought it'd only be four letters. But apparently it's five. yep.
Heck, what Spock/Vulcan never pinch thingie? I'm more of a Next Generation and Voyager fan myself, but I'd like to know what Spock was able to do that others couldn't.
Dekka, thanks for pointing out the body heat reference. My original questions still stand though.
Maybe Coldfusion has some knowledge of the nuclear fusion reaction and how that process bears relevance to generating electricity.
The_Rebel
"The learning and knowledge that we have, is, at the most, but little compared with that of which we are ignorant" - Plato
The_Rebel: I have to say, nuclear power generators use the energy liberated from the splitting of an atomic nucleus which although small for each nucleus, adds up as in kg of nuclear fuel there are over 10^23 atoms. There is a mass defect between an unsplit atom and the resulting products and mass is converted to energy, e as e=m(C^2). This is the heart of why nuclear power can generate so much energy - the heat is used to heat water, generate steam and drive a turbine which uses a rotating magnet and stationary coils or rotating coils and a stationary magnet. Thus the fission of a nuclear fuel is the source of energy and the turbine generator is a common feature of also coal and gas fired power stations and a turbine generator (using a magnet ad coils of wire) is also used in windmills. Power stations convert the energy generated by a nuclear reaction or burning of coal or gas or crude oil. Didn't mean to blind you with science but I hope ppl aren't going around thinking the source of nuclear power is a rotating magnet and stationary coils (or vice versa - there has to be relative movement). It's conversion of mass defect to energy!
When Morpheus was talking about bioelectricity and thermal heat and "combined with a form of fusion" this is ambiguos. Did he mean [bioelectricity and thermal heat combined with a form of fusion-all combined] or did he mean [bioelectricity and thermal heat, combined with a form of fusion-three separate sources with fusion not conencted to the body].
I think the use of thermal heat and bioelectricity is fundamentally flawed as the energy does not come from nowhere - it cannot be created or destroyed only changed from one form to another. This is the first law of thermodynamics - a key law in physics. The food we eat gives us our energy. Whether meat or plants - animals had to eat plants or other animals so plants are the common denominator. Plants capture their energy from the sun - and use the soil so without the sun, a water cycle and soil the machines would have to use a lot of electricity to generate artificial light, soil and to circulate water which the immense power of the Sun normally provides. And after all that it has to be mushed and fed to the humans. all these processes involve wasted energy also so where do the machines get all this energy in the first place? even if they power humans with electricity directly, it is physically impossible to put in so much energy as electricity and get more out! This covers the bioelectricity and thermal heat - energy doesn't magically multiply itself. As for fusion, this could generate much energy and since the fuel is abundantly available from the sea and ice even without the sun the machines could harvest this. If the matrix was 100 years old then without the real sunshine as the sky was scorched (by massive nuclear explosions in the human machine war) much of the water on the earth would have frozen. Before developing fusion machines would need some heat and this could have initially have been gained from geothermal energy and fission.
My view is that machines were limited in number and preferred to keep their war prisoners in a matrix or for processing power or to learn about human strategies. Alternatively after the original war, they may have made a peace treaty and since humans could not easily live in a world without sunshine, the matrix was a way for them to peacefully co-exist.
The funniest music video in the world is Eminem - Without Me, when Elvis is sitting on the toilet, reaches in and pulls out a sandwich and eats it - where did that come from? roflmao
Last edited by neo+trinity on 03-19-2004 at 01:14 AM |
Yes, thanks for that Neo+Trinity. I thought I'd never see this thread again!
Now, elementary secondary school physics (what used to be called 'O'-levels in the UK) made it quite clear that nuclear power is harnessed from the fission reaction of uranium-235 which propagates via a chain reaction. I don't think this concept was ever in doubt in the present discussion. That energy is merely converted from one form to another (be it chemical, light, kinetic, electromagnetic, nuclear, etc.) was also not in dispute.
What was in dispute was the viability of using humans or animals to generate useful bioelectricity. I hope I've clarified that, as perhaps my earlier posts may not have been entirely clear.
As for food to maintain humans in their pods, Morpheus did allude to the fact that 'the dead were liquified and fed intravenously to the living'. This can be cyclical in nature. From the millions of people who died in the great war, the dead could have been used to nourish the first generation of pod-born humans, and likewise those from the first generation who died could then nourish those in the second generation, and so on. Hence there was no need for the growth of plants under artificial light. Knowing the Machines, they may even have genetically modified plants to grow in the absence of light if they wanted to grow plants.
To me, it all boils down to how viable and practical the energy generated via bioelectricity would have been. Heat could have been converted to electrical energy as well - as we do today via the burning of fuel such as coal or gasoline to generate heat which in turns generates steam from water to turn dynamos in turbines. The relevant question is whether the bioelectricity that is produced in humans can be somehow harnessed to generate large amounts of useful electricity (for example, via the 'new form of fusion' alluded to by Morpheus). But I think the analogy of the human body being able to generate up to 120V of electricity may have some truth in it.
The_Rebel
"The learning and knowledge that we have, is, at the most, but little compared with that of which we are ignorant" - Plato
Last edited by The_Rebel on 03-19-2004 at 01:33 AM |
The human bodies liquefied to feed the others only lasts so long - not enough food for the lifetime of a person. the matrix would have an ever decresing population if they relied on dead humans for food. If one body went to feed one human it would run out inlike 6 months as humans need about 3500 calories a day say a dead body weighs 140 pounds then that can sustain a human for only 140 days. [this is just a very approximate calculation, one pound of fat contains 3500 calories of energy and humans only have some fat. the bones etc could be recycled for the new/existing humans]. More food has to come from somewhere or the matrix would not last very long! the population would drop very quickly. Energy conservation cannot be violated - genetic engineering cannot produce an organism that generates more energy than it consumes.
BTW sorry if the nuclear fusion bit was rambly.
I do think concentrating humans would help the machines have a nice warm area where they could use a heat exchanger to concentrate heat or electrically as the energy required to start fusion is huge. I agree that the masses of bodies from the big war would give them a headstart but it would last for only so long. After fusion was started I seriously cannot believe that human heat was useful - humans are to so they can survive - although they generate so much heat they need that heat to survive. I agree that with genetic modification their heat requirements could be manipulated so most of it went to the machines. I suppose a little heat from each of 6billion people would be foolish to waste. The arrays or stacks of pods could be used to contribute to large batteries or capacitors. With the stored energy from 6 billion people for however long it has been accumulated could be combined for the huge enrgy required in a small interval of time to initiate fusion. I still think the simplest explanation is peaceful coexistance. The machines don't lose anything by letting humans live. The matrix is a symbiosys that enhances the machines' lives and the humans - better to have steak than goop huh?
Voltage is not as important as power as this is a measure of how much electrical energy is produced per second. A voltage can be transformed to any other voltage in a transformer at above 99% efficiency - the power output remains unchanged. I believe the 120V line was added to the movie since in the US, their mains electricity operates at 120V and this was like a trigger for the audience there to think - hey I could power my vaccum by plugging it in my ____ hahahaha what an amusing thought!
This is a good thread and I'm glad I came across it again.
The funniest music video in the world is Eminem - Without Me, when Elvis is sitting on the toilet, reaches in and pulls out a sandwich and eats it - where did that come from? roflmao
11-20-2003 01:11 PM
