Aight Nateq....I am willing to take that challenge...i dont think that I know everything about the Matrix and the trilogy...that is impossible....but I believe that I can make a pausible interpretation that help others to answer theirs...so let the debate begin ehh?
My first question for u Nateq
Who ultimatley controls the Matrix?
If you can answer me that...then do this one...
How, from the movies, do we know that Zion was truly destrpyed 5 times before the battle in Revolutions? The idea that there was multiple "ONES" and 5 Zions could be a method of control..how can we know that it is not just a ploy by the Architect and the Oracle....where is the physical evidence?
After Smith has assimilated all of the people in The Matrix...have the machines lost their human counterparts in the fields where they are kept?
If so, why didn't the machines attempt to do anything about this and doubt Neo when he reached the Machine City?
Enyalla, the ending is to help people understand what is going to happen under the peace contract between the humans and the machines. Those that want out will be freed, those who arent willing to be unplugged will stay in the matrix. Sati is a program that makes the sun rise in the matrix. She "made it for Neo." The Oracle and the Architect werent playing games, they had to meet, or coincidentally met and discussed the peace between humans and machines.
Isaih 54.16, The MACHINE CITY ultimately controls the Matrix. Simple as that. They had to turn human beings into a form of energy, so they created the Matrix to keep their body heat, etc.
To Understand what happend the 5 previous times before the Matrix was restarted, you have to undestand the Architect could be lying to Neo to get him to walk to the left door. (Trinity) No one is sure what door the Achitect wanted Neo to walk through, but as the Oracle said in Matrix 3, he is incapable of seeing past any decisions. He is just there to balance equations. There is no physical evidence, and if Neo asked for it, she couldnt show it to him and she wouldnt. She would tell him to "Make up his own damn mind."
The 5 previous ones chose the right door (Which chose to be Jesus then, without saving the human race. See Jesus sits on the right hand side of God. and He is the 6th "One" on the sixth day god created man.) Neo had a connection to the species just like the rest of them, but he was the only one that was able to love someone. There also definetely were five other "ones" because the Matrix made the one because it is a "Sum of a remainder of mathematical Precision" that the Architect cant terminate because of the Oracle unbalancing it. Good Question.
Mongist, after Smith took over the people in the Matrix, most of them they showed were programs. Not humans. So they are not in the bubble tubes made for energy for machines. There were humans taken over, and it never even closely explained what happens to them when they are taken over. Apparantly Smith knows their thoughts. "Cookies need love too." and also, if a human was taken over, their mind was taken over, therefore their body was still at the machine city. So it was irrelevant. They were still used for body heat. The didnt want to accept the real world anyways because Smith referred to it as "Something this weak was not intended to live." But if the Smith was killed, it is not certain what happends to the people he took over. Apparantly they are given back their lives and the Deja Vu cat comes and fixes everything. But that was only shown in the movie happening to programs, so this cannot be taken for a fact. It can only be interpretted and argued over. Just like Isaih 54.16 said, it is impossible to know everything about the Matrix.
The Merovengian is a dangerous computer program that cannot be trusted. That was all the background given to him. He could be interpretted as a previous "one", but that is just assuming. Even if he wasnt human, he could have chose to be in the Matrix. Like "Mr. Reagan." So that shouldnt be assumed either.
The didnt state what his purpose was, but he somehow came into power. If your confused about his purpose, go look up The Names of the characters and what they symbolise. Persephone, Trinity, Neo, Morpheus, Merovingian, they all have sympolism to their names.
Ok, Nateg, I have this one:
Why did the machines go through all the trouble and create thuis huge, complicated, and, most definitely, ENERGY CONSUMMING, thing called 'matrix' just to feed up on humans? Wouldn't it be more straightforward and efficient to just take their energy while unconsciouss? Doesn't keeping the matrix up take at least as much energy as the machines take from the humans? Even if the keeping the matrix running took 50% of the energy the machines get from the humans, that would be a big expenditure just to take energy from the humans in the first place. I've always thought that to be a sort of loophole in the whole plot of this trilogy... If they explain that, I must have missed it and apologize for my stupidity (or lack of attention, or whatever). The only way I can resolve is to assume that by keeping humans mentally stimulated, they generate more energy than if the weren't stimulated.. However, it wouldn't be very plausible, for brain stimulation EXPENDS, does *not* generates energy (e.g., keeping the sodium/potassium pumps working expends about 25% of the energy exogenically acquired by humans. I tend to think that the whole thermodynamics underlying the main plot is selfdefeating... But then again, it's just a movie, not a scholar physics (much less philosophical, mythological o theological) treatise...
Marcabru, no need to appologize, because you answered your own question. "But then again, its just a movie." Your right, they could have just kept them unconscience, but where would the fun of Keanu Reeves fighting be in that? The first one explains this when Morpheus is explaing to Neo "The Matrix is everywhere, it is all around us... speech." He states that the Matrix is used to turn a human being into a battery. (Energy) Thus he holds up the Energizer. They chose to give the peoplea reality, the Matrix, a reality so they would not revolt against the machines. But then again, they didnt expect Keanu to be such a badass. Dont think about the physics of how much energy they are waisting in using the Matrix, because as Morpheus simply put it... "(With Humans) They found all the energy they would ever need. They just basically said the Matrix is used to keep us IN CONTROL (from revolting) to turn us into energy. Simple as that.
But, wouldn't just harvesting them just unconscious do the trick? If the machines have the technology to build something like the matrix, I'm sure they have the technology to keeo humans just asleep.. no possibility of revolt there... and no need for the matrix...
Yes...but by keeping them in the matrix and keeping their brains active it produces a significantly greater source of power than for them just to be sleeping, whereas in sleep, the human body is resting and using the least amount of energy as possible, which would not be of maximum benefit to the machines, and the machines would of course proceed along the most efficient course they could find.
The humans *are* asleep, only that they are having these very elaborate and vivid dreams. Their bodies are not running around in the real world. Also, the functioning of the brain expends far more energy than the movement of the body (check any introductory textbook on neuroscience, if your don't believe me).
But more importantly to my point, human brains can be kept active by just randomly stimulating neurons. No need for the stimulation to be meaningful. Besides, I repeat, the thermodynamics of the whole thing is fundamentally flawed. Once again, take the sodium/potassium pumps (which are transmembrane proteins found in neurons). In order to do their job (to repolarize the membrane as quickly as possible, so that the neuron does not die due to the ionic external/internal imbalance involved in a significant depolarization), a chemical reaction (in charge of the mytochondria) that transforms ATP in ADP, produces energy. However, that energy MUST be used by the pump in order to function. If it is taken away by the machines, then the pump can't function, and the neuron dies. So, to be sure, the brain generates energy. However, the energy is needed by the brain to remain alive. Taking away the energy generated by the brain would kill the brain. It's as simple as that. The whole concept of the trilogy (machines sucking up brain energy) is scientifically flawed. Again, I'm not making this up. Check any neuroscience intro text if you are not convinced. Now, of course, it's just a movie, and I don't reject it because it is scientifically flawed. I'm a big fan of the trilogy (writing in these forums is ona symptom of that). I love this trilogy! The best one I've seen thus far. But still, it's imperfect... Perhaps philosophically, mythologically, theologically, well, there's a lot of room for discussion there. However, scientifically, the main concept is flawed (Is there a section for the science of matrix in this forum?)
Mongist and Macabru, I see the sides of both your oppinions, but as I said to you earlier Macabru, your right. you answered your own question. It's just a movie. I have not studied neuroscience, I'm still a senior in high school! But anyways, I totally agree with you that it is flawed scientifically. But, they wanted to make a movie that had people bend gravity and kick ass and what not, so thats why they came up with the Matrix. Matrix 1 just shortly describes that the Matrix is used to keep us under control, but they dont discuss why we are not just kept in comas. I agree with you Macabru, but I think that Mongist point is good too because that is why there is a Matrix instead of just a field of unconscience bodies.
Indeed... My whole point goes to those hyper-fans (and I have encountered a lot out there) who see the trilogy as flawless in *every single respect*... We humans tend to furiously defend what we like, and to take it as as perfect... Before anything else, The Matrix is a movie, and I'm perfectly clear that, in movies, one *must*, in one way or another, be implausible in order to make people have fun... Fun, more than plausibility, is what makes a great movie, well, great... Of course, it's far more complicated than that, for, more often than not, we take implausibility as a criterion for evaluating movies... Go figure...
11-13-2003 05:08 AM
