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The Snape Poll-don't look unless you have read the book
He is on Voldemort's side
He was loyal to Dumbledore and followed his orders
He was on Dumbledore's side, but went back to Voldemort
he is on his own side
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Nion
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post #16  quote:

I think that Snape is on the Order's side.There are many things that make me believe that Snape is loyal to the Order.


1.He is a very good mind reader.I think that Dumbledore opened his mind sending a messege to Snape pleading to kill.If Snape wouldn't have killed him,another Death Eater would have.
2.The Vow that he made.I think that the mission that Malfoy had was to kill Dumbledore,not to find a way into Hogwarts.Snape Vowed to help Draco in his mission.
3."Blocked again and again and again until you learn to keep your mouth shut and your mind closed, Potter!".What he meant by this,I think is that Harry should practice his mind blocking because The Dark Lord could never be defeated by Harry if he could read his every move like Snape did.
4.J.K.R. is a master in double truths.She would make you think one thing for 90% of the book and then you would see the opposite.It's too obvios that Snape kille Dumby,there must another truth.
(sorry fot the grammar,it's been a long time since i last wrote in english)


Old Post 07-19-2005 09:34 AM
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V. S. Black
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post #17  quote:

These are all very good points Nion.

I agree that if he hadn't, another D.E. would have finished the job for Draco and Snape. But I also have begun to wonder if the vow perhaps compelled Snape to finish what Draco wasn't "able" to as well. I think the key to understanding what really happened would be knowing what an Unbreakable Vow really does to someone who has agreed to take one.

Draco's task was to first find a way around Dumbledore's wards, and second was to kill him.

I also agree with you about the "keep you mouth shut and you mind closed" point. Harry, with all of his anger for Snape, couldn't even get one spell past his defenses. It's like Snape's last lesson to Harry, that this is what will happen if he faces Voldemort if he doesn't perfect these two things.

-----

Another thing I'd like to bring up is the second chapter of the book, Spinner's End. When Narcissa, Bella and Snape are talking to each other about the task, no one actually says anything specific about what Draco must accomplish. Except that no one has ever managed it before, and that according to Snape "If Draco succeeds, he will be honored above all others." But if Voldemort has set an impossible task, Snape probably realized an openning and was just guessing with that comment. Also we know that Snape says that Voldemort "intend for me to do it in the end, I think " if Draco failed. If Voldemort did indeed tell Snape of the plan, wouldn't he have already instructed him to take Draco's place if need be? It sounds more like some more crafty guess work to me.

Snape... he says he already knew of the plan from Voldemort, but the whole time he is talking the Narcissa, it's like he trying to gather information from her about it.

Go ahead and read the second chapter over. I'm telling you, the whole time he is talking to Bella and "Cissy" he is minipulating them and playing with their emotions. He takes his time gaining Bella's trust, and still yet bragging how he is closer to Voldemort than her, because of her misshap at the ministry in book 5.

When Snape agrees to take the vow, Bella is completely shocked, and going through with it has probably taken some susspision off Snape now.

The point is: I don't think Snape knew anything of the plan at all, which is why he hesitated on the last part of the vow. The only problem is that he would not know what he would making a vow for. He would be walking into it completely blind.


Old Post 07-19-2005 05:34 PM
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post #18  quote:

I think he read one of Bella or "Cissy"'s mind. He hesitated in the end because he knew that that ment he would proberly have to kill Dumbledore.

Old Post 07-19-2005 06:20 PM
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V. S. Black
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post #19  quote:

I think you're probably right about that one, there is a good chance he used Legilimency on Narcissa. I have more to think on now... hmm.

Can a person always tell if Legilimency is being used against them? Does anyone know?

I know Snape never tried to hide the fact that he was using it against harry, and Draco noticed when he tried to use it when they were talking in his office. Is it possible Narcissa maybe didn't notice him using it?

If you can't use it without someone knowing, then he wouldn't have used it to find out about the plan, risking his possition within the D.E., otherwise he would have used it.


Old Post 07-19-2005 07:35 PM
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fuscia is Away
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post #20  quote:

I agree with Nion. When I read the part with Snape telling Harry that he had to learn to control his thoughts and close his mind, it was like a parting shot of information to him.

If Voldemort intended for Snape to do it in the end, then it was the final test of loyalty. Still, I can't help but think that Dumbledore knew he was right to trust Snape. Dumbledore came to Snape with the injured hand, and could have died, but Snape saved him. There was a chance to let him die, and then Voldemort would have honored him, yet he didn't let it happen. I think he stuck to his unbreakable vow only because Dumbledore wanted him too. I still think that Dumbledore made Snape make an unbreakable vow reguarding Harry when he came into the order.


Old Post 07-19-2005 07:36 PM
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post #21  quote:

I wonder if you can go against an Unbreakable Vow at all... What if Snape was compelled by the bond made by the vow to finish the task?

Old Post 07-19-2005 07:40 PM
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post #22  quote:

Ron said that you die if you don't fulfill the vow. You have a choice, do it or die.

Old Post 07-19-2005 07:43 PM
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post #23  quote:

Do you remember what chapter or page number that was on? I'd like to know how he worded that.

Old Post 07-19-2005 07:49 PM
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post #24  quote:

Chapter 16 on page 325+326

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post #25  quote:

quote:
fuscia said this in post #20 :
I agree with Nion. When I read the part with Snape telling Harry that he had to learn to control his thoughts and close his mind, it was like a parting shot of information to him.

If Voldemort intended for Snape to do it in the end, then it was the final test of loyalty. Still, I can't help but think that Dumbledore knew he was right to trust Snape. Dumbledore came to Snape with the injured hand, and could have died, but Snape saved him. There was a chance to let him die, and then Voldemort would have honored him, yet he didn't let it happen. I think he stuck to his unbreakable vow only because Dumbledore wanted him too. I still think that Dumbledore made Snape make an unbreakable vow reguarding Harry when he came into the order.


I think Snape knew he had to kill him at some point, but Dumbledore had undoubtable saved his life before, so he owed him something, so saving his life with the hand thing ment he was able to kill him later. (Did snape ow James a life debt that he couldn't forfil?)


Old Post 07-19-2005 07:58 PM
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post #26  quote:

Brilliant! yes saving another Wizard's life creates a bond. James prevented Snape from coming across a transformed Lupin thus saving his life.
A debt so to speak, sooooo maybe the debt is that he can't kill James' son.


Old Post 07-19-2005 08:01 PM
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post #27  quote:

quote:
fuscia said this in post #24 :
Chapter 16 on page 325+326


Thanks.

Okay then, you die if you can't complete the vow, but how could you break it if it was unbreakable....lol.


Old Post 07-19-2005 08:01 PM
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post #28  quote:

Well you break the vow, and it breaks you!

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post #29  quote:

quote:
fuscia said this in post #26 :
Brilliant! yes saving another Wizard's life creates a bond. James prevented Snape from coming across a transformed Lupin thus saving his life.
A debt so to speak, sooooo maybe the debt is that he can't kill James' son.


Like the fidilus charm i dont think it can be passed on, i dont think snape wanted another unforfillable debt, he cant save James (as hes dead), and didnt want to have that with dumbledore as well


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post #30  quote:

Dumbledore showed absolute trust in Snape, and I have to say, I have absolute trust in Dumbledore. Therefore, I have to assume that D was encouraging Snape to kill him, thus allowing Snape to remain in the trust of Voldemort and the DEs. Dumbledore sacrificed himself in order to spark some sort of feeling in Harry, just like the chain if events he described to Harry when he discussed how the prophecy comes true. Concurrently, Snape must play an important role in Harry's future. On a side note, won't Harry be able to talk to Dumbledore through the portrait in the headmaster's office?

Old Post 07-20-2005 08:59 PM
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