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bitwiz44
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Cool post #61  quote:

quote:
Originally posted by Juko-vette

NOT acceptable! A child needs a MOTHER and a FATHER, not FATHER and a FATHER. It's the tradition, the nature, and the religion - we spit in their faces by allowing gay couple marry and adopt kids. And we lose another moral barrier, another common sense - that everybody has a mom and a dad.


Is it more about Masculinity and Femininity Interaction surrounding the child?

Father or male represents "Masculine . Mother Or woman represents Feminine. Can two of the same gender Supply this? If so how?


Old Post 09-19-2003 01:20 AM
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MrJukoVette
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post #62  quote:

Originally posted by mystic

I said that children with adult incest is immoral and wrong...and against the law....what I said about adults the mutually agree is their business...not mine.

We come back to your previous point stating that love is allowed if you are over 21, and not allowed if you are under-age. An adult having sex with children is wrong because it harms the child, and if that is the only reason you deny relatives' marriages...

A counter example would be something along the same lines...not something out of its league.

I dont see why is it 'out of it's league' - inappropriate sexual relationship, between untraditional types of partners... I think it is pretty along the same lines.

No I dont know how many people have sex with their parents...and again, I do not think this is the same as one wanting to marry a parent....the odds are very low of this happening....

100 years ago nobody would even imagine themselves than in 2003, man will marry a man.

Really? How so? Because you wouldnt like it....

NO! Because it's unnatural. Personally, i dont care.

OK whatever mystic.


Old Post 09-19-2003 02:46 PM
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MrJukoVette
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post #63  quote:

Originally posted by bitwiz44

Is it more about Masculinity and Femininity Interaction surrounding the child?

Father or male represents "Masculine . Mother Or woman represents Feminine. Can two of the same gender Supply this?


NO!


Old Post 09-19-2003 02:49 PM
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bitwiz44
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Cool post #64  quote:

quote:
Originally posted by MrJukoVette
Originally posted by bitwiz44

Is it more about Masculinity and Femininity Interaction surrounding the child?

Father or male represents "Masculine . Mother Or woman represents Feminine. Can two of the same gender Supply this?


NO!


No..to what Juko? Both statements? Why?


Old Post 09-19-2003 03:06 PM
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post #65  quote:

Originally posted by MrJukoVette



We come back to your previous point stating that love is allowed if you are over 21, and not allowed if you are under-age. An adult having sex with children is wrong because it harms the child, and if that is the only reason you deny relatives' marriages...

Its not allowed under-age Juko...we have laws here against adults having relations with children...okay...but adults are adults and fully capable of making their own choices in life...who I am to come in and say whats right and wrong if their life doesnt effect mine? I hardly see the difference between two people NOT FAMILY having a relationship.....and people who ARE family having one...its different okay.

People are who they are Juko....they were born to be a specific person, and I am in no way in a postition to judge their lives. We have to be able to accept people the way they are...if you cannot do that, then dont expect others to accept you the way you are.....


I dont see why is it 'out of it's league' - inappropriate sexual relationship, between untraditional types of partners... I think it is pretty along the same lines

You find it inappropriate....not everyone does...but okay...lets say for example you like to drink alcohol or smoke, and others find it inappropriate for people to do that....does it mean that its inappropriate to just them or both of you?

Well..since I assume that you (generally speaking of course) do these things, you do not find it inappropriate, although some diasagree and find it to be so...but to you its not wrong....or as you stated, inappropriate.



100 years ago nobody would even imagine themselves than in 2003, man will marry a man.


Maybe not marrying them, but homosexual activity is not new, and has been around for quite a long time Juko.....alot longer than 100 years.


Old Post 09-19-2003 08:55 PM
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post #66  quote:

"People are who they are Juko ... they were born to be a specific person and i am in no position to judge their lives. We have to be able to accept people the way they are ... if you cannot do that they don't expect anyone to accept the way you are ..."

Mystic,
First of all your theory that people are born a certain way will be debated until the end of the world. Psychologists, for all of their research, still cannot determine if it is nurture or nature that controls almost all of our behavior.
However, let's assume that people are born a certain way and that they should be accepted no matter what.
Do you think we should accept people who are unashamedly racist?
Should we accept and not punish criminals who were born violent?

Now you will probably dismiss these things as being learned, but you don't really know. There is a large following of psychologists who believe in a genetic crime theory, or in other words, criminals are born and not made. If this is the case, how can one justify any punitive action at all?

My point is simply this. Despite what mouse says in the matrix, "to deny our impulses is to deny what makes us human," what really makes us human IS our ability to deny our instincts. Every other creature on the planet can only do what its instincts tell it, humans however, have the capacity reason against their impulses, and not to do things that are wrong.
If people are born so that they are attracted to members of their own sex, they still have the capacity to choose not to act on that impulse. I personally believe homosexuality is immoral, the same way i think incest, baligamy and bestiality are. People with homosexual impulses are not homosexuals until they act on those impulses. The same way people who desire to kill somebody are not yet murderers. People fail to consider CHOICE with regard to this debate, because homosexuals do not want to be regarded as having a choice in this matter ... it absolves them from any guilt.
To make a long post short: everybody feels impulses that are immoral, that doesn't make one immoral until they act on it. I genuinely sympathise with people who lust after members of their own sex, but the argument that i must accept them 'as is' is not a very good one, humans have a choice in everything. The alternative is unacceptable.


Old Post 09-19-2003 09:19 PM
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post #67  quote:

quote:
Originally posted by jrkiv
"People are who they are Juko ... they were born to be a specific person and i am in no position to judge their lives. We have to be able to accept people the way they are ... if you cannot do that they don't expect anyone to accept the way you are ..."

Mystic,
First of all your theory that people are born a certain way will be debated until the end of the world. Psychologists, for all of their research, still cannot determine if it is nurture or nature that controls almost all of our behavior. However, let's assume that people are born a certain way and that they should be accepted no matter what. Do you think we should accept people who are unashamedly racist? People arent born racist...thats a learned behavior......straight parents do not nurture their children to be gay. And yes, I do know that is is a subject that is debated heavily, but from what I have read, everything to me suggests they are born that way .

Should we accept and not punish criminals who were born violent? Homosexuality is not murder...unless they are murderers themselves....therefore they should be in jail also. Some people are born with an "evil" mind, so to speak, but murder is different than having a relationship with the same sex. Again, I see this as not a way to compare.

Now you will probably dismiss these things as being learned, but you don't really know. There is a large following of psychologists who believe in a genetic crime theory, or in other words, criminals are born and not made. If this is the case, how can one justify any punitive action at all? You assume wrong. I am in the CJ/Chem field....(and a student again) I know what the studies are. But murder is murder, and hurting other innocent victims....did you become a "victim" because a couple have a homosexual relationship? I hardly think so.

My point is simply this. Despite what mouse says in the matrix, "to deny our impulses is to deny what makes us human," what really makes us human IS our ability to deny our instincts. Every other creature on the planet can only do what its instincts tell it, humans however, have the capacity reason against their impulses, and not to do things that are wrong.

If people are born so that they are attracted to members of their own sex, they still have the capacity to choose not to act on that impulse. I personally believe homosexuality is immoral, the same way i think incest, baligamy and bestiality are. People with homosexual impulses are not homosexuals until they act on those impulses. The same way people who desire to kill somebody are not yet murderers. People fail to consider CHOICE with regard to this debate, because homosexuals do not want to be regarded as having a choice in this matter ... it absolves them from any guilt.

To make a long post short: everybody feels impulses that are immoral, that doesn't make one immoral until they act on it. I genuinely sympathise with people who lust after members of their own sex, but the argument that i must accept them 'as is' is not a very good one, humans have a choice in everything. The alternative is unacceptable.


Like I said...we disagree on this subject....I fully understand your reasoning on this, but it isnt mine.....

I still look forward to posts of your in other areas jrkiv. Im certain that we will find we have other things we agree on.


Last edited by mystic on 09-20-2003 at 01:37 AM |
Old Post 09-20-2003 01:31 AM
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post #68  quote:

And i yours mystic=)

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MrJukoVette
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post #69  quote:

Originally posted by bitwiz44

No..to what Juko? Both statements? Why?

LOL Of course the last statement.

Originally posted by mystic

Its not allowed under-age Juko...we have laws here against adults having relations with children...okay...but adults are adults and fully capable of making their own choices in life...who I am to come in and say whats right and wrong if their life doesnt effect mine? I hardly see the difference between two people NOT FAMILY having a relationship.....and people who ARE family having one...its different okay.

We also have a law that says a marriage is considered to be between a man and a woman. This law reflects our morals and tradition. We cant let all of our traditions go away in the name of 'political correctness' or 'legacy'. That's how things have been for centuries, and now some minotiry of sexually mis-oriented individuals wants to change one of our BASIC common senses - each person has a mother and a father. You point on children who do not have parent(s) - well, these children are usually unhappy, but our society cant help them - nobody can force his/her mother or father to marry. Legalised and wide-spread acceptance of same-sex marriages and gay couples adoption will affect our youth thru sending the wrong message - some scientists say that 10% of population in most countries are homosexual. Since we can see much less of them, it means their majority tries to hide it from the public - or strict natural nurture keeps them from becoming gay, even without knowing about it. So it youth gets to know that being gay is just cool, and 10% of the population are homosexual... next thing a child would think is "Maybe, i am one of them?" Do you get my point?

You find it inappropriate....not everyone does...but okay...lets say for example you like to drink alcohol or smoke, and others find it inappropriate for people to do that....does it mean that its inappropriate to just them or both of you?

Drinking alcohol and smoking affects only me and nobody else. A lot of people drink sometimes - but nobody makes "Drunkard Pride" parades or tries to gain public's attention. Im not even talking about trying to change a law.

Maybe not marrying them, but homosexual activity is not new,

So is incest.


Old Post 09-20-2003 12:48 PM
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Cool post #70  quote:

quote:
Originally posted by MrJukoVette
Originally posted by bitwiz44

No..to what Juko? Both statements? Why?

LOL Of course the last statement.

This law reflects our morals and tradition. We cant let all of our traditions go away in the name of 'political correctness' or 'legacy'. That's how things have been for centuries, and now some minotiry of sexually mis-oriented individuals wants to change one of our BASIC common senses - each person has a mother and a father.
Its also the law of 'Nature". I cant remember seeing on the nature channel "Gay or lesbian "Mammals". Im also haveing a problem with the rasing of children. For example, Two women, Dont want a man in a relationship for their own reasons. So it they adopt a Female child, This child is programmed to view men as a "Negitive". Life is just fine without a man in it. In a gay Senerio they adopt a Male child, And Women are programmed into this child as a Negitive. I can easly see a child becomming Bias on sexual prefrence growing up in these "Relationships". I have to believe Men and women need each other...Not the opposite. Children tend to take on traits of the parents as they Mature. Yes there is a great many orphan children. But why condemed them to Being Gay or Lesbians because of their mis fortune?


Last edited by bitwiz44 on 09-20-2003 at 03:18 PM |
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post #71  quote:

quote:
Originally posted by MrJukoVette

Drinking alcohol and smoking affects only me and nobody else. A lot of people drink sometimes - but nobody makes "Drunkard Pride" parades or tries to gain public's attention. Im not even talking about trying to change a law.



I absolutely 100% disagree with the above statement. Drinking alcohol effects everyone who is in the way of the drunk behind the wheel. How can you say drinking alcohol only effects you? Perhaps if you're in your home, minding your own business, but that is not always the case.

As for smoking...ever gone to a restaraunt that allows smoking? They say they separate smokers from nonsmokers, but the smoke somehow manages to creep over to the nonsmoking side. We all know what second hand smoke does, so again, how can you say this doesn't effect anyone but you?


Old Post 09-20-2003 04:00 PM
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post #72  quote:

Originally posted by Kookaburra

I absolutely 100% disagree with the above statement. Drinking alcohol effects everyone who is in the way of the drunk behind the wheel.

Did i say 'drinking and driving' or 'drinking'? Do you even understand the difference between these two?

How can you say drinking alcohol only effects you? Perhaps if you're in your home, minding your own business, but that is not always the case.

Why do i have to drink ONLY at home?

As for smoking...ever gone to a restaraunt that allows smoking?

Yes, since i smoke and always look for smoking-allowed place.

They say they separate smokers from nonsmokers, but the smoke somehow manages to creep over to the nonsmoking side.

Did you take air samples and analyze them?

We all know what second hand smoke does,

I am not sure that second hand smoke is harmfull like it's described. A non-smoker breathes tobacco smoke very seldom comparing to a smoker, so if a smoker finishes up pack a day, non-smoker breathes in smoke from 1 or 2 cigs during a day or longer. So far i've seen only ONE case of a second-hand smoker, a waitress who worked in a restaurant for 20 years, has got lung cancer. Well, if you are STUPID and dont understand that breathing with tobacco smoke harms your health, and despite health officials warnings you keep working in the same place for 20 years... who's problem is it?

so again, how can you say this doesn't effect anyone but you?

You drive, dont you? Do you know how many people are affected by your exhaust, containing carbon monoxide and unburned gasoline? Why dont we ban cars from public roads, allowing them only on private property? I follow the same logic, do i not?
In Canada, i have seen one of the most restrictive rules affecting your personal life. You can not drink outside, and you can not smoke inside and in some places outside, and you HAVE to wear YOUR seatbelt, and you cant punish YOUR children, ... but you can smoke marijuana (remember: it is a DRUG), you can walk naked down the street, and you can marry a man. What kind of freedom is this?


Old Post 09-20-2003 08:18 PM
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post #73  quote:

Originally posted by bitwiz44

Its also the law of 'Nature".

Most important reason why i am against same-sex marriages are because they are unnatural.

I have to believe Men and women need each other...Not the opposite.

Exactly. Man needs a woman, and woman needs a man. If you have sexual disorientation, try to live with it... Nobody restricts you from having a same-sex 'fiance', there are gay clubs and bars... BUT WHY MARRY? WHY, FOR HELLS SAKE, WHAT FOR DO YOU WANT TO MARRY?

Children tend to take on traits of the parents as they Mature.

Children need an example - and their family with MOTHER and FATHER is what they see first.

Yes there is a great many orphan children. But why condemed them to Being Gay or Lesbians because of their mis fortune?

Who cares about the child? I cant even imagine myself how is son of 2 dads treated among his friends/schoolmates....
Also, even if the new law comes out, it still won't fit everybody. Maybe somebody wants to have more than 1 man-wife? For that case we have to allow marriages between any number of persons, not just 2.


Old Post 09-20-2003 08:32 PM
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bitwiz44
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Cool post #74  quote:

quote:
Originally posted by MrJukoVette
For that case we have to allow marriages between any number of persons, not just 2. [/B]


If man was allowed to have many wives, I tend to think this would clean up the 'lesbian issues". A woman who is "BI" is completely different than Lesbian. In the middle east I don't think there is Lesbians or gays. I think you are killed if you are. However the Harems may contain "BI" women.
After all the research I have done, thus far it appears women turn Lesbian over mental trauma. Example: The loss of the only man who could please her. Some Man she feel deeply in love with kicked her to the curb..now all men are dogs. physical Appearance was also a factor in many cases. Mental Issues like she never felt as an equal to a man or fails miserably at pleasing a man.


Last edited by bitwiz44 on 09-20-2003 at 10:27 PM |
Old Post 09-20-2003 10:24 PM
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post #75  quote:

It's men like you who have NO idea what you're talking about.
And, now we're "issues" Bit... I love how you treat gays and lesbians like second class, second rate citizens. Before you spew off crap... make sure that it's true. We turn to same sex because of traumatic issues? We have been hurt by a man? Sheesh... is that true? I guess that I just didn't know these things have happened to me, and that it is the reason! My goodness... can I be "cured" of my "issues," please?

What a load of crap


Old Post 09-21-2003 12:25 AM
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post #76  quote:

Exactly - i treat gay and lesbians just like ourselves. So if everybody is allowed to marry ONLY opposite sex, why should gays be allowed to have same-sex marriages? It's GAYS who want to raise themselves over the crowd.

Old Post 09-21-2003 02:22 PM
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post #77  quote:

Originally posted by bitwiz44

If man was allowed to have many wives, I tend to think this would clean up the 'lesbian issues". A woman who is "BI" is completely different than Lesbian. In the middle east I don't think there is Lesbians or gays. I think you are killed if you are. However the Harems may contain "BI" women.

There are lesbians and gays, but they hide there orientation - shariat says NO to any sex except for making kids. It's not that everybody obeys these rules....
Man having many wives... i dont know, it just sounds wrong to me.

After all the research I have done, thus far it appears women turn Lesbian over mental trauma. Example: The loss of the only man who could please her. Some Man she feel deeply in love with kicked her to the curb..now all men are dogs.

Exactly. A lot of lesbians are BI, and many women try lesbo sex, i dont even think there are born lesbos. If there are, they are the minority.

physical Appearance was also a factor in many cases. Mental Issues like she never felt as an equal to a man or fails miserably at pleasing a man.

Usually mental issues, unlike male gays where homosexuality turns the whole organism, genetics, mentality UPSIDE DOWN.


Old Post 09-21-2003 02:33 PM
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Cool Again..An Observation post #78  quote:

quote:
Originally posted by KJ
It's men like you who have NO idea what you're talking about.
And, now we're "issues" Bit... I love how you treat gays and lesbians like second class, second rate citizens. Before you spew off crap... make sure that it's true. We turn to same sex because of traumatic issues? We have been hurt by a man? Sheesh... is that true? I guess that I just didn't know these things have happened to me, and that it is the reason! My goodness... can I be "cured" of my "issues," please?

What a load of crap


I was told to do research. I also tried to get a "View' by opening a thread, how ever it was Bombed. Where is it stated this is about KJ? Where is it stated "Second class". If you do not have the same issues as "others" why include yourself? How do you Know that for example Some women did not have these reasons? Are all Lesbians "copies' of you? Do You "Hate' men? (and im not refering to Gay men either) If this relationshp fails that your in..Would you go back to men? And just How or why did you want to be Lesbian? Whats "better" about a Female lover verses a man to you? How come a man will never be able to Make you feel complete, Whole?

You dog me for going out and researching to come back and pick apart "what it appears to be". Yet you refuse to disscuss why is not really this way
What happen to your 'open' mind? Why react this way to me? Why not Juko? how come Im the target "again"?


Old Post 09-21-2003 02:35 PM
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Cool post #79  quote:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MrJukoVette


There are lesbians and gays, but they hide there orientation - shariat says NO to any sex except for making kids. It's not that everybody obeys these rules....
Man having many wives... i dont know, it just sounds wrong to me.



Since women out number men...This may have to be the answer. Its conceivable to "love" more than one equally. It would also Delete men cheating i think. Some of the "Greats" in the bible had many wifes. God was ok with it.

Question Juko....Do you think Gays and lesbians are the "anti christ"?


Old Post 09-21-2003 02:56 PM
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post #80  quote:

No, not at all. They are just human beings with sexual disorientation who think they can have whatever they want. Hiding behind anti-racism and anti-discrimination, they want to push new laws that simply says YES to all the sh!t we have today. Legal marijuana, legal gay marriages, ... what else?

Old Post 09-21-2003 03:37 PM
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Re: Again..An Observation post #81  quote:

Why react this way to me? Why not Juko? how come Im the target "again"?

I think he directed his statements to both of us. Also when someone puts you under fire, you have to defend yourself and NOT point at others.
Why do i have to tell you this?


Old Post 09-21-2003 03:42 PM
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bitwiz44
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Re: Re: Again..An Observation post #82  quote:

quote:
Originally posted by MrJukoVette
Why react this way to me? Why not Juko? how come Im the target "again"?

I think he directed his statements to both of us. Also when someone puts you under fire, you have to defend yourself and NOT point at others.
Why do i have to tell you this?

KJ is a woman Juko. And It was justa Question. Not pointing at you...BELIEVE me i dont want to see you have a target on your back like I have.


Old Post 09-21-2003 04:00 PM
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bitwiz44
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Cool post #83  quote:

quote:
Originally posted by MrJukoVette
No, not at all. They are just human beings with sexual disorientation who think they can have whatever they want. Hiding behind anti-racism and anti-discrimination, they want to push new laws that simply says YES to all the sh!t we have today. Legal marijuana, legal gay marriages, ... what else?

But the religious View point is this is against all of what God stands for...So is this not 'Anti christ"?


Old Post 09-21-2003 04:07 PM
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MrJukoVette
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post #84  quote:

It is against all of what religions stands for, and religion itself is a way to describe God. "Anti christ" are considered to be evil persons who commit crimes against humanity and who can be considered son of the devil. However, the idea of ignoring our traditions, nature and religion (i'm an atheist - though religion is the main factor for the majority), in the name of legacy and correctness, so called 'human rights', and the idea of accepting perversions despite opposition among population.... These ideas are not anti-christ... I dont even know a word for it.

Old Post 09-21-2003 04:21 PM
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post #85  quote:

bit... I'm just defending myslef with your statement. Unless you're gay, and people want to continuously talk in negative ways toward you, you don't understand. No, I KNOW that all gays and lesbians aren't included in that statement that you made, but it does tend to come across that way. You didn't say second class, second rate... but it comes across that way.
I don't hate men... I have friendships with many men, and about 95% of them are straight men. I go to church with them, I grew up with them, I spend time with them, their spouses, and children... just doing 'regular' things.
No, I wouldn't 'go back' to men, bit. That isn't me. Why do I want to be with a woman? Why do you want to be with a woman? Because that is where you attractions lay... in a woman. It's the same for me... no different.

I have 'argued with juko' as you've stated. We will never agree... and his posts and mine, back and forth to each other have made that clear. In his eyes, I'm a sicko, and I live somewhere that he never hopes to visit. And that's fine. With you... you and I banter back and forth, but we know where each other is coming from, if we have an issue, we work it out. We don't have to see eye to eye, but we can communicate.


Old Post 09-21-2003 04:27 PM
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MrJukoVette
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post #86  quote:

Again you got me wrong. I think that the PUBLIC appearance, support and popularization of gays and gay marriages and gay families with kids is SICKO. I understand that gays are gay no matter what happens - you have all the rights to enjoy your life. Why do you protest? Understand that you want something that you cant have. If you actually get it, it screws all of our lives up. Trust me.
One more stand where i support Bush: he is against gay marriages.
Note: against gay marriages, not against gays.


Last edited by MrJukoVette on 09-21-2003 at 04:42 PM |
Old Post 09-21-2003 04:35 PM
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post #87  quote:

Juko, I know where you stand... you know where I stand.
Basically, we're sicko's. Because no matter WHAT we do, you don't agree.
I don't want to argue or debate this with you. In my mind, on this board, it's a 'dead issue.'
Everyone has stated, all of us, over and over where we stand. What's the point?

And, I can't trust you about saying that you will alllllll be screwed up if we get gay marriage legalized. But, that's why we all have opinions.


Old Post 09-21-2003 04:38 PM
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Marlene Newell
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post #88  quote:

quote:
Originally posted by bitwiz44

But the religious View point is this is against all of what God stands for...So is this not 'Anti christ"?


I know this is for this thread, but I think your mention of the anti-Christ deserves an answer.

The term is used in two different ways. One in the very general way in which you used it, meaning anything that is opposed to Christ's teachings is anti-Christ. Simple enough. But, all of us, every single person, at one time or another, and often quite frequently, and sometimes for long periods of time, are anti-Christ. Is homosexual behavior itself against Christ's teachings? Yes, but so is fornication and a whole list of activities you repeatedly brag about in your posts. Maybe you are making up the activities, creating an alter-ego quite different from your real being, and you don't really engage in those activities in real life. But that itself is anti-Christ.

The other usage of the term refers to a specific individual who will be instrumental in turning much of the world away from God in the last days before armeggeddon. You can read about this anti-Christ in the Book of Revelations, and also in Daniel. KJ definitely is not this person.


Old Post 09-21-2003 04:44 PM
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post #89  quote:

Thank You, Marlene. If I'm an anti-Christ person, I would have to stop going to church, stop praying, stop a lot of things. But I definately don't "turn people away from God." Thank you.... I appreciate your comments.

Old Post 09-21-2003 04:50 PM
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bitwiz44
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Cool Observations post #90  quote:

quote:
Originally posted by KJ
bit... I'm just defending myslef with your statement. Unless you're gay, and people want to continuously talk in negative ways toward you, you don't understand. No, I KNOW that all gays and lesbians aren't included in that statement that you made, but it does tend to come across that way. You didn't say second class, second rate... but it comes across that way.
I don't hate men... I have friendships with many men, and about 95% of them are straight men. I go to church with them, I grew up with them, I spend time with them, their spouses, and children... just doing 'regular' things.
No, I wouldn't 'go back' to men, bit. That isn't me. Why do I want to be with a woman? Why do you want to be with a woman? Because that is where you attractions lay... in a woman. It's the same for me... no different.

I have 'argued with juko' as you've stated. We will never agree... and his posts and mine, back and forth to each other have made that clear. In his eyes, I'm a sicko, and I live somewhere that he never hopes to visit. And that's fine. With you... you and I banter back and forth, but we know where each other is coming from, if we have an issue, we work it out. We don't have to see eye to eye, but we can communicate.

No need to. Its not about you. however you can Separate facts from fiction. I do believe your not the "typical" stereo type that much is written about. You have the courage to stand for your needs. How ever there are many Gay and lesbians that are not on the same page as yourself.
Do you at least agree that in the gay and lesbian community there needs to be some changes to those who insist on making this concept into a circus?


Old Post 09-21-2003 04:53 PM
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