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Marlene Newell
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post #31  quote:

Mystic, I admire your support of gay rights -- they certainly must be provided all the rights under our Constitution. However, you are naive about the gay rights agenda, which may well be a minority in the movement, but is a reality nonetheless.

Old Post 09-14-2003 09:35 PM
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bitwiz44
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Cool post #32  quote:

quote:
Originally posted by Marlene Newell
Mystic, I admire your support of gay rights -- they certainly must be provided all the rights under our Constitution. However, you are naive about the gay rights agenda, which may well be a minority in the movement, but is a reality nonetheless.


So Am I..what agenda?..Like as in a "Hidden" agenda?


Old Post 09-14-2003 10:59 PM
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post #33  quote:

Why do you think the gays would be able to take a church to court if it refuses to provide a wedding ceremony to a gay couple? Which law would allow the couple to win its case?

Also, why cannot divorced Catholics sue their church since they also are excluded from the sacraments?


Old Post 09-14-2003 11:03 PM
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Marlene Newell
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post #34  quote:

Nothing hidden about it, Bit. Do some research on the internet.

A law that recognizes a marriage between gays as legal will be the basis for lawsuits against churches that refuse to recognize such unions, if that is the sole reason for refusing to perform the marriage.

Again, do some research on the internet. Lots of experts talking about this issue for years. Am I the only one who knows how to do a google search?


Old Post 09-14-2003 11:15 PM
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gay4life


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post #35  quote:

Googling brings up one aspect of gay agenda which you may have ignored:

?The tragedies of September 11th were a painful reminder of what discrimination in marriage means, as we watched gay and lesbian survivors being excluded from financial safety nets and other support because they weren?t married to their lost partners? said Ruth Harlow, legal director at Lambda. ?This was a cruel injustice and these plaintiffs sue to ensure that it doesn?t happen again, either in times of national tragedy or in day to day life."

?Civil marriage is the legal safety net that our society provides to support committed couples, and same-sex partners need the rights and responsibilities that come with it just as much as heterosexual couples,? said David Buckel, Lambda Senior Staff Attorney and lead attorney on the lawsuit. ?This case provides New Jersey with the opportunity to do what?s fair by providing legal equality to loving and committed same-sex couples across the State.?


Old Post 09-14-2003 11:53 PM
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bitwiz44
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Cool post #36  quote:

quote:
Originally posted by Marlene Newell
Nothing hidden about it, Bit. Do some research on the internet.

A law that recognizes a marriage between gays as legal will be the basis for lawsuits against churches that refuse to recognize such unions, if that is the sole reason for refusing to perform the marriage.

Again, do some research on the internet. Lots of experts talking about this issue for years. Am I the only one who knows how to do a google search?


Seriously?
Lets say you and I met..you fell for my charm, Eyes etc..And we wanted to be married..Ok..the mormon church would not...catholic would not..Jewish church would not..So we could Sue them? But why would we? To force the issue?
Gays could get married by a JP..right? Dont Chrches or "Religions have or adopted a 'Policy" on who gets married? So would it be the same For Gays. Policy states they cannot marry in this church...Ok..get married by a JP.


Old Post 09-15-2003 01:23 AM
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mysteriarche
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post #37  quote:

Mystic, all of those things i just mentioned involve consenting adults and are illegal in america. They are laws based on morality, which there is a movement now to do away with such laws. I just wanted to know what people think about incest, bestiality, prostitution, multiple spouses, ect. If we have laws against these things, why do people still insist that two consenting adults have a right to do whatever they want?

Old Post 09-16-2003 04:24 AM
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bitwiz44
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Cool post #38  quote:

quote:
Originally posted by mysteriarche
Mystic, all of those things i just mentioned involve consenting adults and are illegal in america. They are laws based on morality, which there is a movement now to do away with such laws. I just wanted to know what people think about incest, bestiality, prostitution, multiple spouses, ect. If we have laws against these things, why do people still insist that two consenting adults have a right to do whatever they want?

What post? Where is it?


Old Post 09-16-2003 04:05 PM
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jrkiv
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post #39  quote:

I posted this question earlier in this thread, mystic responded by asking how homosexual marriage had anything to do with those other things.

Old Post 09-16-2003 06:06 PM
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post #40  quote:

quote:
Originally posted by mysteriarche
Mystic, all of those things i just mentioned involve consenting adults and are illegal in america. They are laws based on morality, which there is a movement now to do away with such laws. I just wanted to know what people think about incest, bestiality, prostitution, multiple spouses, ect. If we have laws against these things, why do people still insist that two consenting adults have a right to do whatever they want?


Well...okay...I see what you are getting at.

But here is my problem with it...

Incest....well...I usually think of that in terms of a child and an adult...so not what I consider consenting.

Bestiality....is this really consenting? Did the dog consent? No seriously...I think that falls under cruelty to animals.

prostitution....well I think if they are gonna legalize it then regulate it....we dont need people spreading diseases...especially when many of these prostitutes are strictly doing it for drugs....are they drugs used with needles? Chances are good.

Multiple spouses......I dont necessarily disagree with that....if thats what people want...why should it matter....if the woman agree and the men agree...fine....now, on the other hand, I do have a problem with it if there is a child involved...kind of like what that guy was wanting with Elizabeth Smart....wanted to marry her...and thats wrong...so its hard because that can go either way...sometimes there are children (well teenagers) involved....and there is something wrong with a grown man wanting to marry a teenager.

All I know is that these particular things have nothing to do with two people of the same sex having a relationship....

?The tragedies of September 11th were a painful reminder of what discrimination in marriage means, as we watched gay and lesbian survivors being excluded from financial safety nets and other support because they weren?t married to their lost partners? said Ruth Harlow, legal director at Lambda. ?This was a cruel injustice and these plaintiffs sue to ensure that it doesn?t happen again, either in times of national tragedy or in day to day life."

?Civil marriage is the legal safety net that our society provides to support committed couples, and same-sex partners need the rights and responsibilities that come with it just as much as heterosexual couples,? said David Buckel, Lambda Senior Staff Attorney and lead attorney on the lawsuit. ?This case provides New Jersey with the opportunity to do what?s fair by providing legal equality to loving and committed same-sex couples across the State.?



Like I said before, which sums up what Ive been trying to say....was there some reason why these people should not have been able to have legal rights to the victim fund? Did they not lose their loved one? Their partner?

There is something wrong when we deprive them of the rights in which I think they deserve!

Great article gay4life !!! This is exactly the point I was trying to make!!!


Last edited by mystic on 09-16-2003 at 06:19 PM |
Old Post 09-16-2003 06:14 PM
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post #41  quote:

Mystic, do you think the US government should outlaw the consumption of meat. Since when does the consent of an animal mean anything in this society. Hell, we can have them put to sleep where presumably they wouldn't concent to it. WE kill them and eat them, and presumably they don't consent to that either.
As for incest, what happense when the child turns eighteen? Are you for incest then? What if the child genuinely consents even at a younger age, and was not forced to in any way commit a sexual act with, say her father. Or brother? What would you say then?
And how can you say there is something wrong with a grown man wanting to marry a teenager? If they both genuinely consent, by your reasoning the government should not restrict them from doing anything they want to do. Maybe her parents could sign a permission slip until she was 18?
As for prostitution and baligamy (sp), you have just gone on record as saying you want to live in a society that has those things.
Why can't you just admit that these laws are there because the acts are immoral, it isn't an issue of consent as i just illustrated.


Old Post 09-16-2003 06:25 PM
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post #42  quote:

Originally posted by jrkiv
[B]Mystic, do you think the US government should outlaw the consumption of meat. Since when does the consent of an animal mean anything in this society.

Hell, we can have them put to sleep where presumably they wouldn't concent to it. WE kill them and eat them, and presumably they don't consent to that either.

My consent thing about the dog was a joke....thats why I put a smilie face and followed it up by "no seriously..." But I do think bestiality is cruelty to animals....


As for incest, what happens when the child turns eighteen? Are you for incest then? What if the child genuinely consents even at a younger age, and was not forced to in any way commit a sexual act with, say her father. Or brother? What would you say then?

Id say if thats what they want to do....I mean if she wants it and no one forced her and she had never been molested before the age of eighteen and she was mentally capable of making that decision...its not my business to tell an adult what to do.


And how can you say there is something wrong with a grown man wanting to marry a teenager? If they both genuinely consent, by your reasoning the government should not restrict them from doing anything they want to do. Maybe her parents could sign a permission slip until she was 18?

Maybe they could.....thats up to her parents not me...but if they are having relations before she is of adult age...the law could simply come in and charge him with rape...they dont need the parents of the girl to do that...there are laws agains a man having relations with an underage woman, and vice versa...did we not see that with the mary Leturnno case? Thats fall into what the parents want and what the law decides to do....but if he has relations with her and she is 14 but the law says the legal consenting age is 16 then its rape...no matter how you slice it.


As for prostitution and baligamy (sp), you have just gone on record as saying you want to live in a society that has those things .


No not really, what I said is that if they DO legalize it, it should be regulated...it was legal for awhile in Nevada.....I dont condone paying someone for sexual activities...I said its too scary to think of what these people might pass around. But like I said, they legalized it in Nevada and got rid of it again....


Why can't you just admit that these laws are there because the acts are immoral, it isn't an issue of consent as i just illustrated

They are immoral....but again, what does this have to do with two people of the same sex loving one another....

easy....you think its immoral and I do not.

And thats your choice to think that, but not everyone thinks as you do...I think they should have rights like any other person.....

Look...this is just my thought on it...im not looking for an argument....I just dont think that these things you mentioned are on the same level as homosexuality.....

But again, thats my choice to think that.....if you think differently then so be it. Im not in a position to change your mind....Im just offering my view like everyone else.


Old Post 09-16-2003 07:29 PM
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post #43  quote:

People of the same sex are going to have relationships no matter what i say or do, but that doesn't mean the government should legally validate their union, the same way it doesn't let parents marry their children (unless you're woody allen). If people want to be homosexuals, i'm not saying we should put a crow bar between them. I'm saying that we cannot abandon the morality of the law, because once we do, it opens up all of these other possibilites that i've brought up. I DON'T want to live in a society where my next door neighbor is married to his little sister, my neighbor on the other side decided to marry his cat, and the man across the street has 10 wives, 5 of which are his daughters. The immediate impression is that this is a slippery slope, but legally recognizing marriage as something not strictly between a man and a woman but between any two, three, four consenting adults (and possibly animals) is the only precedent needed to legally permit and validate these other immoralties in our society.
Mystic, i respect your point of view, and i'm not suggesting we prosecute homosexuals. I'm only saying that if we turn our backs on the moral foundation of law, then we are only breaching the surface of the moral decay our society will undergo.


Old Post 09-16-2003 07:47 PM
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post #44  quote:

quote:
Originally posted by jrkiv
People of the same sex are going to have relationships no matter what i say or do, but that doesn't mean the government should legally validate their union, the same way it doesn't let parents marry their children (unless you're woody allen). If people want to be homosexuals, i'm not saying we should put a crow bar between them. I'm saying that we cannot abandon the morality of the law, because once we do, it opens up all of these other possibilites that i've brought up. I DON'T want to live in a society where my next door neighbor is married to his little sister, my neighbor on the other side decided to marry his cat, and the man across the street has 10 wives, 5 of which are his daughters. The immediate impression is that this is a slippery slope, but legally recognizing marriage as something not strictly between a man and a woman but between any two, three, four consenting adults (and possibly animals) is the only precedent needed to legally permit and validate these other immoralties in our society.
Mystic, i respect your point of view, and i'm not suggesting we prosecute homosexuals. I'm only saying that if we turn our backs on the moral foundation of law, then we are only breaching the surface of the moral decay our society will undergo.


And I respect yours also!

what moral foundation are you talking about? Im just curious to understand....


Old Post 09-17-2003 03:18 AM
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post #45  quote:

What i mean by moral foundation is the fact that those laws against incest, prostitution, baligamy (sp) are there because those acts are immoral.
There are a lot of people out there who do not wish any laws to be based on morality. What i'm saying is that if we abandon the moral aspect of the law, then there is no limit to how far our society can fall.
Sorry if that was a little vague...


Old Post 09-17-2003 04:37 AM
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post #46  quote:

quote:
Originally posted by jrkiv
What i mean by moral foundation is the fact that those laws against incest, prostitution, baligamy (sp) are there because those acts are immoral.
There are a lot of people out there who do not wish any laws to be based on morality. What i'm saying is that if we abandon the moral aspect of the law, then there is no limit to how far our society can fall.
Sorry if that was a little vague...



Okay I see what your saying.....but I guess Im trying to wonder how mutual love between two people falls in the same category as these other things you mentioned.

Of course I think that the things you mentioned are immoral...but how does homosexuality fit in that?

To me...(and this may be just me..) but to me, thats like comparing apples to oranges...

Bestiality and homosexuality?

Prostitution and homosexuality?

baligamy and homosexuality?

incest and homosexuality?

Where are the shared traits between each one mentioned?


Old Post 09-17-2003 06:57 AM
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post #47  quote:

Originally posted by mystic

Okay I see what your saying.....but I guess Im trying to wonder how mutual love between two people falls in the same category as these other things you mentioned.

Not mutual love but marriage. Marriage exists between man and woman, there cant be a marriage between man and a man! People marry to have kids - what do gays marry for? They shouldne be allowed to have children either - scientific research proves that inviduals grown up without MOTHER's AND FATHER's attention tend to lose their sexual identity.

Bestiality and homosexuality?

Prostitution and homosexuality?

baligamy and homosexuality?

incest and homosexuality?


Lets look at incest - i can say it's just fine. Nobody is offended, incest is amongst family's internal relations - why is it immoral? From your point of view a son should be allowed to marry his mom, since it's perfectly ok.
Give me one reason why incest is immoral.


Old Post 09-17-2003 04:41 PM
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post #48  quote:

But in the WEST, including US and Canada, France and Germany, morals are long time forgotten already... Why do we even bother disputing over gay marriages, if children sue their parents, if the same children easily see naked gays kissing on the street, if children see potheads smoking a joint - again, on the street, etc. etc. etc. - what morality are you talking about? If we want to bring morality back to our society, we should start with basics - disallow family members from sueing each others. That's one of the most immoral things i could ever imagine myself - and is accepted without a doubt in NAmerica, for example.

Old Post 09-17-2003 05:02 PM
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post #49  quote:

You would say that children who have been abused by their parents now can defend their rights. We could have a law protecting children from physical and/or sexual abuse, but if your 14yo daughter is going the wrong way - what would you do? Think 'the hell with her' or actually try to stop it? If you do try to stop her from breaking her YOUNG life, you eventually will run into a situation where you have to punish her - and there the law comes in. Just try to hit her once - and your child, brainwashed by their schools, will immediately call NINE ONE ONE! Unbelievable!
And you are talking about morality?


Old Post 09-17-2003 05:08 PM
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post #50  quote:

quote:
Originally posted by MrJukoVette
Originally posted by mystic

Okay I see what your saying.....but I guess Im trying to wonder how mutual love between two people falls in the same category as these other things you mentioned.

Not mutual love but marriage. Marriage exists between man and woman, there cant be a marriage between man and a man! People marry to have kids - what do gays marry for? They shouldne be allowed to have children either - scientific research proves that inviduals grown up without MOTHER's AND FATHER's attention tend to lose their sexual identity.

Bestiality and homosexuality?

Prostitution and homosexuality?

baligamy and homosexuality?

incest and homosexuality?


Lets look at incest - i can say it's just fine. Nobody is offended, incest is amongst family's internal relations - why is it immoral? From your point of view a son should be allowed to marry his mom, since it's perfectly ok.
Give me one reason why incest is immoral.



For one I didnt write a son should be allowed to marry his mom....

But like I said earlier on here...waht happens between an adult family is one thing...unless there has been molestation in that family prior

But when i think of incest...I tend to view it more as a child and an adult in the family....whereas that is not only immoral, but against the law.

And for the other comment that you dont think that gay people should be parent...well I disagree....the children raised in families like this are happy healthy fabulous children....who I am certain do not grow up with hate in their hearts.

I do think gays should be allowed to get married.....would a marriage between same sex couples affect YOUR life? Would they be taking something away from you personally?

My parents, even though they were divorced, raised me to never judge another person the way that homosexuals are being judged today....prejudiceness was not tolerated in my house....and Im very happy about that....I have friends of every color, sex, etc.....and I am so much better for it. My husband and I have gone out with friends of mine that are gay....and we have a great time with them.....

but I disagree people dont marry to have children....people marry because they want to have a relationship with only that one person for the rest of their lives...if children become a part of that...great.

lets say that a woman is infertile or a man, sterile...should they not be allowed to get married? I mean they cant have children....so what would be the point of them getting married then if the only reason is to have kids?

I always like hearing your view on alot of your posts Mr. Juko....but you need to do better than this one.....you are excluding a whole other set of people by your statement.

Help me to understand!!! Thanks!!


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post #51  quote:

quote:
Originally posted by MrJukoVette
But in the WEST, including US and Canada, France and Germany, morals are long time forgotten already... Why do we even bother disputing over gay marriages, if children sue their parents, if the same children easily see naked gays kissing on the street, if children see potheads smoking a joint - again, on the street, etc. etc. etc. - what morality are you talking about? If we want to bring morality back to our society, we should start with basics - disallow family members from sueing each others. That's one of the most immoral things i could ever imagine myself - and is accepted without a doubt in NAmerica, for example.



quote:
Originally posted by MrJukoVette
You would say that children who have been abused by their parents now can defend their rights. We could have a law protecting children from physical and/or sexual abuse, but if your 14yo daughter is going the wrong way - what would you do? Think 'the hell with her' or actually try to stop it? If you do try to stop her from breaking her YOUNG life, you eventually will run into a situation where you have to punish her - and there the law comes in. Just try to hit her once - and your child, brainwashed by their schools, will immediately call NINE ONE ONE! Unbelievable!
And you are talking about morality?




I'd comment...but I have no idea who you are talking to.

What does abused children and people suing their families have to do with gay marriages?

Im lost on your point here...but maybe thats because I have no idea who your talking to.


Old Post 09-17-2003 10:51 PM
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post #52  quote:

My point is judging gay marriages from point of view of morality is wrong - since morality was lost long time ago, or better to say different nations have different morals, especially in different periods.

For one I didnt write a son should be allowed to marry his mom....

But like I said earlier on here...waht happens between an adult family is one thing...unless there has been molestation in that family prior


So your point is it shouldnt be allowed, but it is just fine if family members who take part in the relationship are adults, like over 21. That sounds ridiculous. Do you think?

But when i think of incest...I tend to view it more as a child and an adult in the family....whereas that is not only immoral, but against the law.

Law is not a problem - gays aim at changing the federal law... And what is so immoral about it?

And for the other comment that you dont think that gay people should be parent...well I disagree....the children raised in families like this are happy healthy fabulous children....who I am certain do not grow up with hate in their hearts.

You cant know if they are happy and healthy and fabulous because i am sure you have never met a child who was grown up in a gay family. If we let gays marry and have children today, tomorrow we will have children with 2 dads, and the day after tomorrow... hell knows what else perverted human mind will come up with!

I do think gays should be allowed to get married.....would a marriage between same sex couples affect YOUR life? Would they be taking something away from you personally?

You ARE locked up inside yourself. Ofcourse if some gays marry i wont lose anything, but that's not why i stand up against it. I actually do care about my society, and we ALL lose some part of ourselves when another moral barrier is broken.

but I disagree people dont marry to have children....people marry because they want to have a relationship with only that one person for the rest of their lives...if children become a part of that...great.

Children are more important than everything else. Marriage is not fullfilled without children.

lets say that a woman is infertile or a man, sterile...should they not be allowed to get married? I mean they cant have children....so what would be the point of them getting married then if the only reason is to have kids?

They could adopt a child...

I always like hearing your view on alot of your posts Mr. Juko....but you need to do better than this one.....you are excluding a whole other set of people by your statement.

What other set of people are you talking about?


Old Post 09-18-2003 04:12 AM
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post #53  quote:

quote:
Originally posted by MrJukoVette
You cant know if they are happy and healthy and fabulous because i am sure you have never met a child who was grown up in a gay family. If we let gays marry and have children today, tomorrow we will have children with 2 dads, and the day after tomorrow... hell knows what else perverted human mind will come up with!


Juko... do YOU know gay couples with children? I know A LOT of them... and let me tell you, those kids who were raised by gay parents are STRAIGHT!!! You might know one or two, here and there... but I'm surrounded by them. I live IN the community. And these kids are straight. They date the opposite sex. There went that theory of yours, out the window! Just because someone is gay or straight doesn't mean that it will influence others. Ever single person is different.


Old Post 09-18-2003 04:33 AM
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post #54  quote:

KJ tell me where you live, so i know which places to AVOID going to, ok? Because i am disgusted by all this...

I am stupid to try to explain to a gay person that being gay sux.


Old Post 09-18-2003 04:42 AM
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post #55  quote:

You're right Juko... you shouldn't even bother trying to tell me that my life sucks... because it doesn't. Don't worry... if you're even planning on coming to San Diego... let me know and I will make sure that you know where to avoid. I wouldn't want you to be insulted.

And just for the record... I'm disgusted too... with attitudes like yours! We don't agree... with never have, and we never will. I posted in response to your post because you made a statement that wasn't backed up with facts... a statement that wasn't true.


Old Post 09-18-2003 04:46 AM
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post #56  quote:

quote:
Originally posted by MrJukoVette
KJ tell me where you live, so i know which places to AVOID going to, ok? Because i am disgusted by all this...

I am stupid to try to explain to a gay person that being gay sux.


Well...Im not gay....but your explanations leave me at a loss also Juko.

originally posted By MrJukovette
So your point is it shouldnt be allowed, but it is just fine if family members who take part in the relationship are adults, like over 21. That sounds ridiculous. Do you think?

No I dont think....to each their own....who am I to judge others in situations like that....do I think people should inbreed? NO....but thats not what we are talking about here...

My goodness....you CANNOT compare homosexuality to incest, bestiality, prostitution, baligamy.....they arent even in the same catergory...like I said...apples to oranges.

Whats ridiculous is the comparisons that are brought up.

You cant know if they are happy and healthy and fabulous because i am sure you have never met a child who was grown up in a gay family. If we let gays marry and have children today, tomorrow we will have children with 2 dads, and the day after tomorrow... hell knows what else perverted human mind will come up with!

Well you would be wrong.....I do know of a child that goes to my nieces school who has two parents of the same sex...and since she is a friend of my neice I have met her and she is the nicest girl....she is 12 years old, and extremely well adjusted, and very accepted by her peers at school.

Well...the perverted comment....thats your opinion of course...but I dont consider love between two people perverted...


You ARE locked up inside yourself. Ofcourse if some gays marry i wont lose anything, but that's not why i stand up against it. I actually do care about my society, and we ALL lose some part of ourselves when another moral barrier is broken

How am I locked up inside myself? Was that comment necessary?

YOU think its morally wrong...I do not....thats just the way it is.

Children are more important than everything else. Marriage is not fullfilled without children.

Sorry,,,,but there are plenty of married couples out in the world that do not have children, nor want to. To them, children are not something they want...its called having a choice.....and their marriages are pretty fulfilled without children....

Again....thats an opinion of yours, but not all people agree with that. Marriage isnt about children...its about loving the person you marry.

They could adopt a child...

So can gay couples....

now if a gay couple marries, and adopts a child.....will that satisfy your fulfillment scenario? I mean it should....it would fulfill your comments on heterosexuals...I mean fair is fair...right?

What other set of people are you talking about?


I was talking of infertile couples....and remember that adoption isnt an easy process...nor is it cheap...so...if a couple gets married and they cannot have children, nor can they not afford to adopt....is there marriage purposeless?

No...it isnt...and why you ask? Because they have each other...they love each other...thats what marriage is....your version of marriage is an opinion. Ask any person why they get married, and I guarantee you 90 percent or more, will answer because I love him/her and want to spend the rest of my life with him/her....Im pretty sure you wont get an answer like...because I want children.


Old Post 09-18-2003 07:15 AM
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Cool Agenda post #57  quote:

I was told to do some research, I did.

Observation is this Is scary to Many. If allowed to marry then next is raising kids that are programmed to 'Recruit". Your straight kid is at the mercy of the "Gay' kid. In school they share or have locker rooms. A straight kid could become a victim. Next would be the 'Peer pressure". This appears to many as a Marketing tactic, like Smoking etc, to recruit the next generation. Eventually its "Strength of numbers" because now Straights are the minority. The religious groups point to the bible and with some degree appear to be correct. Nothing against the bible to date has worked or benefited Man. They also point out its not so much how this affects them as an adult as much as it will their children and how the family will become even more divided.


Old Post 09-18-2003 02:41 PM
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post #58  quote:

Oh, so now we're recruiters?

Old Post 09-18-2003 02:50 PM
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MrJukoVette
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post #59  quote:

Originally posted by mystic

No I dont think....to each their own....who am I to judge others in situations like that....

Before you said that incest IS immoral, or did i get it wrong?

do I think people should inbreed? NO....but thats not what we are talking about here...

My goodness....you CANNOT compare homosexuality to incest, bestiality, prostitution, baligamy.....they arent even in the same catergory...like I said...apples to oranges.


Its not a comparison, rather a counter-example. Do you know how many people have had sex with their parents? What if they all start calling it 'love' and struggle thru courts, public, media, etc. to make it legal?

Well you would be wrong.....I do know of a child that goes to my nieces school who has two parents of the same sex...and since she is a friend of my neice I have met her and she is the nicest girl....she is 12 years old, and extremely well adjusted, and very accepted by her peers at school.

One child's case does not mean anything. I am sure that if this tendency of gay families adopting children spreads the result would be sad.

Well...the perverted comment....thats your opinion of course...but I dont consider love between two people perverted...

Again - not love but the idea of unnatural love between same-sex partners who want to make us used to it.

How am I locked up inside myself? Was that comment necessary?

Not you, i expressed myself wrong. I mean north american society as a whole - people are too locked up inside themselves.

Sorry,,,,but there are plenty of married couples out in the world that do not have children, nor want to. To them, children are not something they want...its called having a choice.....and their marriages are pretty fulfilled without children....

If you dont WANT to have children then it's different. Families who want children and can not have them usually become unhappy certain time after marriage.

So can gay couples....

NOT acceptable! A child needs a MOTHER and a FATHER, not FATHER and a FATHER. It's the tradition, the nature, and the religion - we spit in their faces by allowing gay couple marry and adopt kids. And we lose another moral barrier, another common sense - that everybody has a mom and a dad.

I was talking of infertile couples....and remember that adoption isnt an easy process...nor is it cheap...so...if a couple gets married and they cannot have children, nor can they not afford to adopt....is there marriage purposeless?

It's not purposeless, but usually becomes instable after certain period of time. Human instincts call us to have children, it's not a social matter.

No...it isnt...and why you ask? Because they have each other...they love each other...thats what marriage is....your version of marriage is an opinion. Ask any person why they get married, and I guarantee you 90 percent or more, will answer because I love him/her and want to spend the rest of my life with him/her....Im pretty sure you wont get an answer like...because I want children.

Not 90 but maybe 50 or 60%.


Old Post 09-18-2003 08:31 PM
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post #60  quote:

Originally posted by MrJukoVette
Before you said that incest IS immoral, or did i get it wrong? I said that children with adult incest is immoral and wrong...and against the law....what I said about adults the mutually agree is their business...not mine.

Its not a comparison, rather a counter-example. Do you know how many people have had sex with their parents? What if they all start calling it 'love' and struggle thru courts, public, media, etc. to make it legal

A counter example would be something along the same lines...not something out of its league.

No I dont know how many people have sex with their parents...and again, I do not think this is the same as one wanting to marry a parent....the odds are very low of this happening....

Sorry, I just cant buy this comparison


One child's case does not mean anything. I am sure that if this tendency of gay families adopting children spreads the result would be sad.

Really? How so? Because you wouldnt like it....

I hate to inform you but straight parents have gay children....and gay parents that adopt have straight kids...

Isnt that amazing how that works?

Studies comparing groups of children raised by homosexual and by heterosexual parents find no developmental differences between the two groups of children in their intelligence, psychological adjustment, social adjustment, popularity with friends, developmment of social sex role identity or development of sexual orientation.

Again - not love but the idea of unnatural love between same-sex partners who want to make us used to it.

Its not for you get used to it....to them its not unnatural...its quite natural. They arent forcing their lifestyle on you.....all they want is rights to have what we get with our marriages. J

ust like gay4life said...why is it that the women and men that lost their spouses on 9/11 got help but the people who had lifetime partners were not allowed that same respect. Its BS! They had every right to be cared for the same way others were. Its total discrimination, regardless of how you look at it.

Not you, i expressed myself wrong. I mean north american society as a whole - people are too locked up inside themselves.

Okay....then I will rephrase...how so? How are North Americans locked inside themselves?

You do know that you have homosexuals in Canada...I noticed earlier you didnt want to go into San Diego as to not run into homosexuals....so you not leave your house in Canada either?

Just curious

MARRIAGE REDEFINED: 'TWO PEOPLE'

In a move that shocked many Canadians, the Ontario Court of Appeal determined yesterday that Canada's long-standing definition of marriage is discriminatory and must be altered. The ruling took effect immediately, and sparked strong reactions across Canada.

The court ordered Toronto city clerks to begin issuing marriage licences immediately, and several couples reportedly held marriage ceremonies yesterday. If the ruling stands, Ontario will be the first jurisdiction in North America to legalize gay marriage.

"The existing common law definition of marriage violates the couple's equality rights on the basis of sexual orientation under (the Charter of Rights and Freedoms)," read the 61-page decision.

How did this turn out BTW?

If you dont WANT to have children then it's different. Families who want children and can not have them usually become unhappy certain time after marriage.

But see here you change your entire argument.....first you said that marriages are about children....now it changes to fit different view points like if they dont want them its different....well like I said that changes your argument...you said marriage was about children.

We werent talking about people who want children only to find out that they cannot have their own.....thats a totally different subject altogether......of course that might cause problems....nut that has nothing to do with the original subject in this thread.


NOT acceptable! A child needs a MOTHER and a FATHER, not FATHER and a FATHER. It's the tradition, the nature, and the religion - we spit in their faces by allowing gay couple marry and adopt kids. And we lose another moral barrier, another common sense - that everybody has a mom and a dad

Everyone has a mom and dad? HA! Tell that to my friend whose boyfriend walked out on her and left her with two sons, whose father doent even see them. They dont even know where he can be found. BS! Not everyone has a mom and dad, per say....many children have grown up without a mom and a dad.
Another moral barrier.....

What I think you need to do is look up facts about children raised in gay families, and you'll see how well adjusted they are....

And its you losing the moral barrier Juk.....some people dont feel that way....

As much as I respect you thoughts on this...well...we just dont agree on this subject.


It's not purposeless, but usually becomes instable after certain period of time. Human instincts call us to have children, it's not a social matter.

So you are saying that marriage is not a social matter? Marriage is instinct? I mean, you say marriage is about children, and having children is an instinct, therefore marriage is an instinct...

hmm....disagree...

what about woman who have children outside marriage...an accident caused by a "social matter?" (Sorry...could not help myself on that)

Evolution of marriage:

Notwithstanding the personality gulf between men and women, the sex urge is sufficient to insure their coming together for the reproduction of the species. This instinct operated effectively long before humans experienced much of what was later called love, devotion, and marital loyalty. Mating is an innate propensity, and marriage is its evolutionary social repercussion

It's not purposeless, but usually becomes instable after certain period of time. Human instincts call us to have children, it's not a social matter

Children are not instincts....mating (sexual gratification) is an instinct...and every human has that!

Not 90 but maybe 50 or 60%.

Your figures are WAY too low....if you are considering that 40-50 percent answer children....in fact, the stats might surprise you....they certainly surprised me...but Children had nothing to do with them either way.



I pulled the question...why do people get married:

This is what I got

Woman:

70 percent: money
35 percent: love
5 percent: security, pre-arrainged marriages

Men:

90 percent: Love (ages 17-23)
10 percent: (doesnt specify) (ages 17-23)
10 percent: Love (men over 30)
90 percent: (men over 30) Hard circumstances, such as legal residence needed


nothing in this survey even mentioned kids....

and looking at a few more...I never saw kids as a major reason to get married..

Anyways...I wont change your mind, and you certainly wont change mine....its just the way things are for us individually.

Have a good day!


Last edited by mystic on 09-18-2003 at 11:43 PM |
Old Post 09-18-2003 11:38 PM
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