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Senator
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Should the monument stay? Yes or no. post #1  quote:



No, the monument should not stay.

America prides itself on being the 'melting pot' of the world. I've never seen "In Buddah We Trust" or "In Allah We Trust". No "In Ra We Trust"... No "In The Life Spirit We Trust"...

"In God We Trust" should come off the money too.


Old Post 08-25-2003 06:49 PM
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Kookaburra
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post #2  quote:

Yes, it should stay.

America prides itself on being founded by our forefathers who took Biblical principles and made a country under God's direction.

Buddah was not there when our Constitution was signed.

Allah was not there when our Constitution was signed.

Ra was not there when our Constitution was signed.

GOD was there! He was there in the hearts of the people who decided to make Him the God of this country. His Commandments were written in stone for all of mankind, not just America. For those offended by the Commandments, we can sure see where your heart is, and it's certainly not to obey God. Anyone who can reject anything given to us by God does not love God. He says; "If you love me, keep my commandments"

What's happening is a whole lot of people are being sorted out, and it looks like the tares are being distinquished from the wheat. Perhaps God has begun His separation of the churches and is forming His Body of Christ... one church made up of God's children. There will be no mistaking who belongs to God and who doesn't.

So what if we are a melting pot of the world. We aren't of this world, we just live here for now. Just because we let every ethnic group in our country does not give us permission from God to adopt their ways.

As for the public display of the Commandments being against the Constitution... define separation of church and state. That does not mean God has to be taken out of the public. It meant the state could not interfere with who we serve as our God, and what church we go to. By forcing us to remove God from public places IS INTERFERING! So, who is at fault here? Certainly not Moore. He's not violating the Constitution. People have twisted the Constitution to read in such a way that eliminates God.

I say keep the monument where it is. In fact... put the same kind of monument in front of ALL courts, nation wide. After all, aren't we required to take an oath to tell the truth "so help me God"? Is there a hard hearted person or lobby group out there that's going to try to abolish that oath from the courts too?

So help YOU God.. all of you who are trying to abolish God's name from our country. You're going to need His help.


Old Post 08-25-2003 07:33 PM
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post #3  quote:

quote:
Originally posted by Kukabeara
America prides itself on being founded by our forefathers who took Biblical principles and made a country under God's direction.
Would that be the same forefathers who raped and slaughtered the native americans (who happened to occupy this land long before a european ever knew America existed)? They broke atleast the 6-10th commandments when they came here. How ironic.

quote:
For those offended by the Commandments, we can sure see where your heart is, and it's certainly not to obey God. Anyone who can reject anything given to us by God does not love God.
I haven't come across anyone actually claiming to be offended by the ten commandments. While some of it sounds more like control in the form of threats, most of it is what I'ld call general decency towards others. I've never known a person to be offended by decency.

The issue at hand isn't about the words of the ten commandments anyway, it's about what the monument represents which is an entire religious belief system.

As far as the 'obeying god'. If god told any of you to carve your eyeballs out to prove your ...loyalty, or committment..or whatever I guess... to him, raise your hand if you would obey and we'll tally it up. *all those in favor of keeping the monument where it is, better have their hands up!*

quote:
As for the public display of the Commandments being against the Constitution... define separation of church and state. That does not mean God has to be taken out of the public. It meant the state could not interfere with who we serve as our God, and what church we go to. By forcing us to remove God from public places IS INTERFERING! So, who is at fault here? Certainly not Moore. He's not violating the Constitution. People have twisted the Constitution to read in such a way that eliminates God.
So far, every judge in every court who has addressed this, has disagreed with yours & Moore's shared view on the matter. As a matter of fact, all 8 of his fellow judges voted unanomously that the monument must be removed. All of them people took the exact same oath Moore did. You would think atleast one of these people would agree with him.. So far, not a single one.

quote:
I say keep the monument where it is. In fact... put the same kind of monument in front of ALL courts, nation wide. After all, aren't we required to take an oath to tell the truth "so help me God"? Is there a hard hearted person or lobby group out there that's going to try to abolish that oath from the courts too?
The oath to tell the truth remains. However, the words "so help you god" has been eliminated from it. This was a huge issue several years ago. God lost.

quote:
So help YOU God.. all of you who are trying to abolish God's name from our country. You're going to need His help.
People can choose to believe in any, if any, religion they wish. The best thing in the constitution is the ability to ammend it. Giving the people of this country the ability to choose hot its ran is the one thing the forefathers did right. Atleast they understood that future generations might have different ideas and belief systems than they did and for that they all get a cookie for that. The majority seems to think that god is fine....as long as it's kept in the church.

*NOTE: I have not stated what religious beliefs, if any, I have. Accusations and ignorant personal comments may be directed to your nearest recycle bin.


Old Post 08-25-2003 09:49 PM
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post #4  quote:

quote:
Originally posted by Senator
Would that be the same forefathers who raped and slaughtered the native americans (who happened to occupy this land long before a european ever knew America existed)? They broke atleast the 6-10th commandments when they came here. How ironic.

I don't condone the wrongs of our forefathers, and neither does God. We weren't there when it took place, so we don't know all the circumstances behind the history books. I don't like it that God wiped out entire nations back in the Old Testemant days either, but I am not God, and I am not perfect, and I don't know why God chose to do that. He just did, and maybe some day we'll understand.

I can't answer for forefathers who raped and slaughtered people. I'm sure God has punishment for them, just like any other rapist or murderer. I think if you read your Bible, you'll see where natives of a land did not matter. If someone went in and conquered a land, it was a very high price to pay for the defeated inhabitants of the land. It is no different from various governments of this day to go in and take over land, either through war or some other means. I don't recall God ever saying, other than the Israelites, that certain land belongs to certain people, beyond the 12 tribes of Israel. He clearly marked out their land. As for the rest of the world, God didn't exactly set boundries.

It's a terrible thing when anyone loses their propery, but that doesn't mean God was or was not behind the founding of America. We do know He's the one that authorizes governments to be established for His plans. Since America was established, I would have to say He authorized it. Just because men/women sin in the process of setting up something, such as a government, does not mean God was behind the sin. God is holy and doesn't sin, and He does not condone sin either.



I haven't come across anyone actually claiming to be offended by the ten commandments. While some of it sounds more like control in the form of threats, most of it is what I'ld call general decency towards others. I've never known a person to be offended by decency.

Have you read the reasons why people want the monument to be removed? Have you read the reasons why they want God taken out of public places? Don't tell me it's not because they aren't offended. That's the only reason behind all this. They are offended. It isn't just America this is happening in. All over the world people are being known for where their hearts are. They are either for or against God. There is nothing in between. The Lord said Himself there is no lukewarm.

The issue at hand isn't about the words of the ten commandments anyway, it's about what the monument represents which is an entire religious belief system.

A religious system? And what might that system be? It happens to be about God and His commandments to the world. It's the world rejecting God, His Son, and those who obey and love Him. The Ten Commandments are not a religious system unless you consider God to be religious. Jesus despised religion. It was man who set up religion, not God. The Ten Commandments do represent God as opposed to another god, but then in order for anyone to be offended by that monument, they would have to be offended by God's existence. If the people of this country are offended by the God of Abraham being established as our God, then one of two things need to take place:

1. Accept the fact that our forefathers established our Constitution according to Bible principles, and get over it. Stop trying to take our God given rights away from us. We have to drive by disgusting signs of things that represent Satan and his evil ways. Our Bibles were taken out of our schools but the Koran is there, and Harry Potter is there.

2. Overthrow the government and the Constitution, and erect a new government that makes it illegal for God to be mentioned, or displayed publically. That would require a war in our own country, amonsts those for God, and those against Him. Americans fighting against Americans (again). How sad that anyone would even hate God so much that they want Him completely removed from an entire country who was founded on God's laws.

I for one am honored to be a citizen of this country. We have a president, that although makes many mistakes, he prays to God. And he publically shows his belief in God. I pray for our government.

If those lobbists are even considering trying to get rid of the Constitution than they have a tremondous fight on their hands. I find it strange that all the while they are fighting to remove God from everything our country stands for, they are not fighting to remove anything contrary to God, such as satanic cults, Harry Potter, Muslim places of worship, and anything else that displeases God. They are only intent on removing God. Doesn't that tell you something?


As far as the 'obeying god'. If god told any of you to carve your eyeballs out to prove your ...loyalty, or committment..or whatever I guess... to him, raise your hand if you would obey and we'll tally it up. *all those in favor of keeping the monument where it is, better have their hands up!*

He tested Abraham to sacrifice his only son. It's already been done, and Abraham had to choose between his own flesh and God. He chose God, and God spared both of them.

It isn't a matter of that monument being taken away from us because it's holy or necessary in our faith. It's the principle of why it's being asked to be remove. We are fighting because people are not going to stop here. You want to see a pathetic example of what happens when you take God out of someplace? Look at our school systems. Oh yeah... your ways are better than God huh? Now we have generations of kids with no moral values and they shoot each other.

You want to take God off our money? Let's see what happens to the financial system of our country. You want to take God out of public view... don't be surprised if we end up a dust bowl like the Middle East. There's a prime example of what happens when a country removes God. They are taken out of His protection.


So far, every judge in every court who has addressed this, has disagreed with yours & Moore's shared view on the matter. As a matter of fact, all 8 of his fellow judges voted unanomously that the monument must be removed. All of them people took the exact same oath Moore did. You would think atleast one of these people would agree with him.. So far, not a single one.

Then we can add another 8 people to the list who do not fear God. The majority rejected Christ too, but we all know the story. God would have sent Jesus for even just one person. Jesus would have died even if only one person out of billions would have been saved. So what, eight more people showed their true colors. I'm sure there will be more.

The oath to tell the truth remains. However, the words "so help you god" has been eliminated from it. This was a huge issue several years ago. God lost.

God hasn't lost anything. The end is yet to come.

People can choose to believe in any, if any, religion they wish. The best thing in the constitution is the ability to ammend it. Giving the people of this country the ability to choose hot its ran is the one thing the forefathers did right. Atleast they understood that future generations might have different ideas and belief systems than they did and for that they all get a cookie for that. The majority seems to think that god is fine....as long as it's kept in the church.

Don't think that by removing God, any of you can erect anything you want. If God is removed from the public, no one better dare erect anything in His place. You can count on a revolt in this nation. You think you can put out other gods and not be in violation of OUR rights? You remove one faith, then you have to remove ALL. It is a matter of time before God's Body of Christ is assembled. You can't get rid of God, and He has not lost.


*NOTE: I have not stated what religious beliefs, if any, I have. Accusations and ignorant personal comments may be directed to your nearest recycle bin.


I can certainly tell what you aren't. You are not a child of God. If you were, you wouldn't be behaving like this. There is only one true faith, and one true way to eternal life with Christ. That's through Christ Himself. Any other way you chose will cause you to lose in the end. You not stating what faith/religion you are does not matter to me. I can tell what you arent.


Old Post 08-26-2003 12:15 AM
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post #5  quote:

OK...first of all, God can do just fine on his own. he doesn't need public help, and he doesn't want you praying at some idol, like a statue of the 10 commandments (hey...isn't that one of the commandments?) God doesn't need you fighting over some stupid monument. For his followers, worshiping him is supposed to be its own reward.

Next, those are the wrong 10 commandments. Moses destroyed those tablets, and God offered a revised edition (Exodus 34:14-24). Make sure you celebrate the appropriate feasts and sacrifice your goats in the appropriate manner.

Then, Jesus sort of did away with the commandments persay, and just wanted us to love one another and God (to paraphrase). Why not leave it at that.

Fourth, only two of the commandments represent secular laws: the ones about killing and stealing. Those laws will stand just fine weather the commandments are displayed in the rotunda or not, and would also be just fine if the commandments didn't even exist. The first four commandments are purely religious in nature. The remaining four, while not necessarily religious, are just nice-to-haves and don't have much to do with law.

Fifitly, there are about 600 other obscure commandments in the old testament. Do you obey them all? How about the slave trading rules? How do you get to pick which ones? I'll bet you don't even obey the 10 in question! Lets see...
2) Graven images: our churches are filled with them, from crosses to crucifixes to tabernacles to ambreys to icons to stations of the cross. This commandment is GROSSLY violated, and I'd wager YOU are among the violators. God says he will punish your GREAT GRANDCHILDREN for this discression. Ahhh...what a just and loving god
3) Lords name in vain: Have you EVER done this?
4) Not working on the Sabath: I'm sure you've never worked on this day . This also includes having people work for you (e.g. all the church-goers being waited on at Sunday brunch). This includes "kindling a fire". Ever heat your house on the Sabath? Mow your lawn? Study? Change your oil? Oh...and by the way- the sabath is technically Saturday. Do you honor the sabath at ALL? Be thankful God doesn't violate his own commandment and KILL YOU for this anymore, as he used to.

I could go on and on, but I'll just stick with the religious ones for now. There you go- I'll bet you violate 3 of the 4 religious commandments on a regular basis!

The carved rock in the Rotunda does not make the court more effective or moral. It also implies that the eyes of justice are not blindfolded, which I'm sure is true with judge moore. The monument offends some people, violates the constitution, violetes a federal court order, and serves no purpose! God wouldn't want it there. The court is secular!


Old Post 08-26-2003 01:37 AM
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Re: Should the monument stay? Yes or no. post #6  quote:

quote:
Originally posted by Senator
No, the monument should not stay.

America prides itself on being the 'melting pot' of the world. I've never seen "In Buddah We Trust" or "In Allah We Trust". No "In Ra We Trust"... No "In The Life Spirit We Trust"...

"In God We Trust" should come off the money too.



I disagree. As much as we are a "melting pot" now, why should we have to rid ourselves of everything that our forefathers put together because a few people do not like it? I dont see any other country willing to erase their heritage because a few people dont like it.

Would that be the same forefathers who raped and slaughtered the native americans (who happened to occupy this land long before a european ever knew America existed)? They broke atleast the 6-10th commandments when they came here. How ironic.

Im gonna stand on what Kuka said about this also....Americans dont have to pride itself on alot of things we did back in the past....some are very bad errors, but they are just that, errors...every country has them, but it doesnt make them less proud of their country, nor does it erase the sacrifice people made to make our country what it is today. I certainly would never go to a country where they believe in Allah, or Buddah and have them try to take away everything their country stands for....thats BS. If you move there, there are traditions that should be accepted. Just because the monuments stands, doesnt mean people have to live by it, or be offended by it. They still have the right to leave and go to temple, or wherever else they go to practice their religion.

No...its time this country back back some morality, and people started getting off their high horse and started accepting that America ia great based on past events that unfolded and shaped it the way it is now.....isnt that the reason people move here?....because of the greatness of this country?

Just a thought.


Old Post 08-26-2003 07:39 AM
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post #7  quote:

we are not "getting rid of our heritage". The 10 commandments weren't even in the rotunda until Moore installed them two years ago! We are only keeping our religious and secular heritage seperate, as they should be.

Old Post 08-26-2003 04:43 PM
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post #8  quote:

quote:
Originally posted by @dam
we are not "getting rid of our heritage". The 10 commandments weren't even in the rotunda until Moore installed them two years ago! We are only keeping our religious and secular heritage seperate, as they should be.


I guess I dont look at the ten commandments as such a religious aspect as I do a moral code, in which I believe people should follow as a society. If these codes offend people....well I find that odd of sorts.

Thou shalt not steal, kill, commit adultery, bear false witness, honor thy neighbor, honor thy mother and father, etc......

Hmmm....I didnt realize that these things were so religious and offensive to people.


Last edited by mystic on 08-26-2003 at 05:02 PM |
Old Post 08-26-2003 04:59 PM
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post #9  quote:

For the life of me I can not understand why so many people in this country are so intimidated by God and religion that they want to remove any reference to him? Why is there such a big push to remove God from everything? God created the earth and all that is within it. How then can we ban God from the things man created (ie buildings and government?). I hear people say that God should be kept in the church. This is insane, God is not an entity that we keep in a box only to reveal when it's convenient. I have always wondered how America in some 200 years of existence became the worlds mightiest country. My personal belief is it that our success as a country is directly linked to the forefathers making the foundation of this country built upon the belief in God. I fear what will happen to our country as the foundation is slowly chipped away. The removal of the 10 commandments is just another chip in that foundation. My .02cents.

Old Post 08-26-2003 05:55 PM
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post #10  quote:

You forgot the first four, which are purely religious in nature.

Not killing and stealing is fine (but wait- doesn't Alabama have capitol punishment?)

Honoring parents: That is nice, but I can understand some cases where it wouldn't be a good idea (e.g. abusive parents). And even so, it isn't against the law.

Adultry: Yes- adultry is bad, but it isn't against the law

Coveting: Not a particularly redeeming quality, but most people want something they don't have and someone else does. I personally don't consider it sinful, unless you act on it and break one of the other commandments like stealing or adultry. Also NOT AGAINST THE LAW!

Lieing: yeah...also not good, but most people tell at least little white lies now and then to make others feel better (oh no honey- that dress doesn't make you look fat). Again, unless you are under oath or contract, NOT AGAINST THE LAW.

And you say our laws are based upon these commandments?

Flapbreaker: not everyone believes as you. How would you feel if there was a monument in there with instructions on how to worship Zeus?

It is funny- I have exactly the opposite opinion as you. I think that our great success as a country is due in large part BECAUSE we seperate religious and secular matters. Look how successful theocracies like Iran are or Afghanistan was, or the old quasi-theocracies of medieval Europe.


Old Post 08-26-2003 06:05 PM
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post #11  quote:

quote:
Originally posted by @dam


Flapbreaker: not everyone believes as you. How would you feel if there was a monument in there with instructions on how to worship Zeus?

It is funny- I have exactly the opposite opinion as you. I think that our great success as a country is due in large part BECAUSE we seperate religious and secular matters. Look how successful theocracies like Iran are or Afghanistan was, or the old quasi-theocracies of medieval Europe.


Of course not everyone agrees with me but you cannot deny the fact that the USA is a country founded on Christian values not those of theology, geneology ect. The ironic thing is people are free to practice which ever religion they want. If people are actually offended by references to God then they are overly sensitive.

I can't believe you think Iran and Afghanistan are succesful. My only point with America's success was that with a basic belief in God, our country was able to grow to be more succesful and powerful than countries that have been around for 1,000's of years.

I guess I just think that people have taken the whole "seperation of church and state" too far.


Old Post 08-26-2003 07:14 PM
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post #12  quote:

I believe it should stay - if other religions can keep their beliefs on the walls of schools - then that should be authorized to remain in that room.
If the minority has the ability to have more rights then the majority, what is our country?
Equality?
no!

I am impressed with this though - there is talk to bring prayer back into the schools in my area.


Old Post 08-26-2003 07:28 PM
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post #13  quote:

quote:
Originally posted by flapbreaker


I guess I just think that people have taken the whole "seperation of church and state" too far.



Most people do not have a clue of what that seperation of church and state is. It was designed to protect the church from the state, not the state from the church.

Long ago - people were forced by the state to ATTEND the church closest to them - and pay taxes to that church.
in other words.... Cathlics had to attend the church closest and pay taxes even if that wasn't a cathlic church. Sucks huh?
Anyways - that was the reason for the creation of church and state when the colonists came to america - freedom of religion.
Not being told what church to attend or what to believe.

Not the government tears down land marks in the name of "seperation of church and state," when that land mark means nothing to the state and everything to the church.
My how horrible and corrupt this nation has become in 200 years.

Truly sad that rights of the miniority outway the marjority anymore.
Special taxes, less taxes, special treatment. The Equality that the founders started out with is GONE.
They would be ashamed of this country and what it has become.


Old Post 08-26-2003 07:33 PM
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post #14  quote:

quote:
Originally posted by flapbreaker
For the life of me I can not understand why so many people in this country are so intimidated by God and religion that they want to remove any reference to him? Why is there such a big push to remove God from everything? God created the earth and all that is within it. How then can we ban God from the things man created (ie buildings and government?). I hear people say that God should be kept in the church. This is insane, God is not an entity that we keep in a box only to reveal when it's convenient. I have always wondered how America in some 200 years of existence became the worlds mightiest country. My personal belief is it that our success as a country is directly linked to the forefathers making the foundation of this country built upon the belief in God. I fear what will happen to our country as the foundation is slowly chipped away. The removal of the 10 commandments is just another chip in that foundation. My .02cents.


Ditto for me! Well said.

People want to put God in a box because they want to control their own lives, and the destiny of this world. It's called power, greed, and lust.

They apparently have no concept of the fact that it is by God's breath in their lungs that they are allowed to remain alive. If He withdraws His breath, they sease to exist and their dead bodies become worm infested.

They are like ostriches. If they put their heads in the ground, they think no one can see them. If people put God in a box and remove His name, they think God is powerless over them and can't be seen.

Oh are you ever in for a rude awakening. Have you even considered the massiveness of this universe? You are like a grain of sand in perspective to all God created. One little speck on a planet, in a solar system that goes so far beyond our imaginations that we can't even map it. Everywhere in that vast space is the God you are trying to put in a box. Sure you don't want to reconsider what you are trying to do before it's too late for you?


Old Post 08-26-2003 08:31 PM
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post #15  quote:

quote:
Originally posted by flapbreaker


I can't believe you think Iran and Afghanistan are succesful.


Uhhh....I think that one went right over your head. My point was that they AREN'T very succesful


quote:
My only point with America's success was that with a basic belief in God, our country was able to grow to be more succesful and powerful than countries that have been around for 1,000's of years.


America was one of the earliest large countries (that I know of) to officially seperat church from state. Are you saying we became so succesful in spite of that? I'd like to think it was because of it.


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Re: Re: Should the monument stay? Yes or no. post #16  quote:

quote:
Originally posted by mystic
As much as we are a "melting pot" now, why should we have to rid ourselves of everything that our forefathers put together because a few people do not like it? I dont see any other country willing to erase their heritage because a few people dont like it.
The first thing the europeans did when they got here was steal the native americans heritage and erased nearly their entire race & culture. Based on actual historical events, like the founding of this country, our forefathers ignored more commandments than they obeyed. How ironic that "god" is mentioned anywhere in our constitution. And the pledge of alligance is an insult to the people of this country.

quote:
Americans dont have to pride itself on alot of things we did back in the past....some are very bad errors, but they are just that, errors...every country has them, but it doesnt make them less proud of their country, nor does it erase the sacrifice people made to make our country what it is today.
I don't know. Seems like 'america' has done a decent job of erasing the sacrafices forced upon the Native Americans. We seem more concerned with making sure theres a black person in every television commercial.

quote:
I certainly would never go to a country where they believe in Allah, or Buddah and have them try to take away everything their country stands for....thats BS. If you move there, there are traditions that should be accepted.
America doesn't stand for god and religion. America supposedly stands for freedom and the peoples right to choose what they believe. Neither god nor religion is required for either of those.

quote:
Just because the monuments stands, doesnt mean people have to live by it, or be offended by it. They still have the right to leave and go to temple, or wherever else they go to practice their religion.
Now this is truely ironic. Considering the 10 commandments are gods word and a religious icon, how about the monument be moved into a church, where it belongs, and then people can go there if they want to look at it?

quote:
No...its time this country back back some morality, and people started getting off their high horse and started accepting that America ia great based on past events that unfolded and shaped it the way it is now.....isnt that the reason people move here?....because of the greatness of this country?
I'm sure some people think america IS great while others think of america as a 'lesser evil' than where ever they are originally from.

I agree that good morals need to make a comeback. God, the 10 commandments and religion, all are not required.


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post #17  quote:

quote:
Originally posted by mystic
I guess I dont look at the ten commandments as such a religious aspect as I do a moral code, in which I believe people should follow as a society. If these codes offend people....well I find that odd of sorts.

Thou shalt not steal, kill, commit adultery, bear false witness, honor thy neighbor, honor thy mother and father, etc......

Hmmm....I didnt realize that these things were so religious and offensive to people.
"God" is used in the first 5 commandments. I don't know how you don't see that as being religious.


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post #18  quote:

quote:
Originally posted by @dam
You forgot the first four, which are purely religious in nature.

Not killing and stealing is fine (but wait- doesn't Alabama have capitol punishment?)

Honoring parents: That is nice, but I can understand some cases where it wouldn't be a good idea (e.g. abusive parents). And even so, it isn't against the law.

Adultry: Yes- adultry is bad, but it isn't against the law

Coveting: Not a particularly redeeming quality, but most people want something they don't have and someone else does. I personally don't consider it sinful, unless you act on it and break one of the other commandments like stealing or adultry. Also NOT AGAINST THE LAW!

Lieing: yeah...also not good, but most people tell at least little white lies now and then to make others feel better (oh no honey- that dress doesn't make you look fat). Again, unless you are under oath or contract, NOT AGAINST THE LAW.

And you say our laws are based upon these commandments?

Flapbreaker: not everyone believes as you. How would you feel if there was a monument in there with instructions on how to worship Zeus?

It is funny- I have exactly the opposite opinion as you. I think that our great success as a country is due in large part BECAUSE we seperate religious and secular matters. Look how successful theocracies like Iran are or Afghanistan was, or the old quasi-theocracies of medieval Europe.
It was a great relief to read this! Someones paying attention, I love it!


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post #19  quote:

quote:
Originally posted by @dam


Uhhh....I think that one went right over your head. My point was that they AREN'T very succesful




America was one of the earliest large countries (that I know of) to officially seperat church from state. Are you saying we became so succesful in spite of that? I'd like to think it was because of it.


Ok I missed the sarcasm in that one.

I am saying that in the beginning the seperation was of a different nature than what people are trying to do today. Another poster said it best, the seperation was to protect the church from the government not to shield the government or it's people from the church. But somehow now people take it to mean "remove" the church from everything public so not to offend. Again I think our success is partly due to the fact that our forefathers recognized that there was a God and that some basic christian beliefs were used in the forming of our government.


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post #20  quote:

quote:
Originally posted by flapbreaker

Another poster said it best, the seperation was to protect the church from the government not to shield the government or it's people from the church.


And you base that on what? The seperation is MUTUALLY beneficial to both church and state. The churches are free to take care of religious matters, unencumbered by political concerns, and the government is free to tend to secular issues, unencumbered by religious dogma.

It is a two-way street...a win/win situation. What is shocking is that it wasn't very common before!

I'd still like to hear how our government and laws are based on the 10 commandments, in light of my comments in the post senator just quoted.

Even if this were just a free speech issue and not a speration of church and state issue, it is still a can of worms that we don't need to open. If it is Moore's freedom of speech and religious expression to put a religious monument on public property, what is to stop me from, say, building a pyramid (that consumes the entire floor of course) or placing a statue of Zeus in the rotunda? The courthouse is not a bulletin board to advertise religion.


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post #21  quote:

@dam,
it was to pretect the church from the state and the people of the CHURCH from the state.
(See my other posts about seperation of church and state...as well as go back 400 years in history)


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post #22  quote:

1) Prove it
2) the constitution isn't anywhere near 400 years old


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post #23  quote:

quote:
Originally posted by @dam


And you base that on what? The seperation is MUTUALLY beneficial to both church and state. The churches are free to take care of religious matters, unencumbered by political concerns, and the government is free to tend to secular issues, unencumbered by religious dogma.




I am not going to pretend to be an expert on law or anything but I based my opinion on the fact that the forefathers were very religious and frequently spoke of God. Since they came up with the constition in the first place I can only assume that they did not mean for God or any reference there of be removed from every public place but rather didn't want their government interfering with their religion.


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post #24  quote:

quote:
Originally posted by @dam
1) Prove it
2) the constitution isn't anywhere near 400 years old


1 OKAY

The desire for religious freedom was a main reason for the settlement of America by Europeans. The Church ruled the State and dictated what people were to believe, to what church pay taxes etc. (History books and Encyclopedia etc)
The CHURCH OF ENGLAND RULED. PLAIN AND SIMPLE.
People believe that Church and state are separate?
This in itself is a fallacy of ignorance and an uneducated mind. The nation?s motto is In God We Trust, Sessions of Congress open in prayer, Judges and witnesses swear oaths on the Bible ( a religious monument like the 10 commandments).

?Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or PROHIBITING THE FREE EXERCISE THEREOF; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. ?


Removing the ability to display an article Could Be Prohibiting the free exercise thereof AND removing the freedom of speech.
Just as hanging the 10 commandments on the wall of a teachers room states what that person believes, but they are told to remove it ? is removing freedom of speech?We can teach Darwinism and scientology (yes, those are religions) in our schools, but not have a teacher hang a picture up?
Does that not prevent freedom of speech and expression? Yes it does ? to the fullest degree.

A judge placing the 10 commands is the same principle. It explains what that person believes in?

The LAW prevents students to hold prayer (up until meet you at the pole). What did this do?
Prohibited the RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE TO PEACEABLY ASSEMBLE - and exercise their belief. But wait - that?s government land? So - Homosexuals can stand on Government property stating ?God is gay? is okay, but students who believe in God cannot assemble?
Although God condemns homosexual actions (no offense to anyone intended), these people are still authorized to stand around and state their peace - but a student body cannot? They are no different then the JUDGE stating what he believes.
But they get away with it, and he cannot?


2.) I never said that it was 400 years old - to put words in my mouth is to be one of a closed mind.
I say it again.
Go back 400 years and study history until the Civil war.

Seperation of church and state goes back at least 400 years (not the creation but the reason. Understand why i said 400 years now?)

I truly hope you plan on getting a higher education - this stuff i'm speaking of is coming from General Education in College.

(THIS IS A REPOST I KNOW)


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post #25  quote:

Actually, the state world the church. The church of England was founded by a king, because he wasn't happy with one of the rules in the Catholic church (he wanted a divorce or something).

Also, just because it happened a long time ago, it doesn't necessarily mean that all the founding fathers were died-in-the-wool Christians. Many were diests. I've gone through the list of commandments. Only about two and a half of them are laws.

P.S. I've taken several theology and philosophy classes in college- at a Catholic university no less.


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post #26  quote:

Nice - I was homeschooled/private and if you have any information on what we learn - its the same although the religion aspect differs in many areas. (friend who went to Catholic uni told me about his - each ones different though)
hmm 2 1/2...
1.) Thou shalt not kill
2.)Thou shalt not steal
3.) Thou shalt not bear false witness (lying to cops, court, etc is illegal and that person can be processed).
4.)Thou shalt not commit adultery (used to hang people for this one in PA..although that really wasn't the correct action.)

I'd say 3 1/2, but close enough


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post #27  quote:

Law Enforcement Code of Ethics

Im not gonna type the entire code....but I will put the last paragraph in.........

"I recognize the badge of my office as a symbol of public faith, and I accept it as a public trust to be held so long as I am true to the ethics of the public service. I will constantly strive to achieve these objectives and ideals, dedicating myself before God to my chosen profession - law enforcement."


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post #28  quote:

^ ....for now. One thing at a time.

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post #29  quote:

Senator ^ ....for now. One thing at a time.

Why one thing at a time? I mean really...when is enough, enough?

Why is it that people get so damn offended so easily? This whole thing is ridiculous....next thing you know we wont be able to say "United We Stand" because it will offend legless people.

Geez!


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post #30  quote:

Or we won't be able to place our hand on our hearts in front of the flag because the Armless will be offended.

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