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Marc Flemming
Renovator
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Location: Santa Cruz
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Alabama Chief Justice Roy Moore was suspended Friday pending the outcome of an ethics complaint for defying a federal court order to move a Ten Commandments monument from the rotunda of the Alabama Supreme Court building.
The plaintiffs who sought the monument's removal -- Stephen Glassroth and Melinda Maddox -- filed the complaint with the state judicial board of inquiry, arguing that Moore is guilty of judicial misconduct for failing to carry out a court order.
The complaint charges that Moore, a Republican, failed "to respect and comply with the law" and "willfully failed to comply with an existing and binding court order directed at him."
It also said the chief justice failed "to uphold the integrity and independence of the judiciary," "failed to observe high standards of conduct" and "failed to avoid impropriety and the appearance of impropriety in his activities."
Tom Parker, Moore's spokesman, said the chief justice had not yet seen the complaint, nor had his lawyers.
"We'll see what we do from here," Parker said.
The case has been referred to an Alabama judicial court, which will hold a trial-like proceeding where evidence of alleged wrongdoing will be presented and Moore will have a chance to defend his actions. Should Moore be found guilty, the court has the power to punish him -- and even remove him from the bench.
During his suspension, Moore will continue to receive his salary but will be prohibited from carrying out his duties as a judge.
Moore's supporters prayed outside the state judicial building Friday evening.
Meanwhile, Alabama state officials have made plans to remove the 5,300-pound monument from the building, attorneys for those demanding the removal told CNN Friday.
U.S. District Judge Myron Thompson, who ordered the monument taken out, held a conference call Friday morning with both sides in the case that led to his ruling.
According to attorneys for the plaintiffs, State Attorney General Bill Pryor said during the call that removal plans are under way, but he gave no specifics.
The plaintiffs' attorneys said they were satisfied and planned another phone conference in a week.
They said they hope the monument will be removed by then. If it isn't, they said, they will revisit the possibility of pursuing contempt charges against the state -- which could trigger $5,000-a-day fines until the monument is removed.
On Friday, Moore stood near the monument as he talked to Judicial Building manager Graham George, who was told Thursday by the rest of the justices on the state's high court to carry out the removal, according to a report from The Associated Press. It wasn't known what was said.
In an interview Friday with CNN, Moore made it clear he would not back down.
"The issue is: Can the state acknowledge God?" he said. "If this state can't acknowledge God, then other states can't. ... And eventually, the United States of America ... will not be able to acknowledge the very source of our rights and liberties and the very source of our law. ...
"When a court order departs from the law and tells you what you can think and who you can believe in," he said, the judge issuing that order is "telling you to violate your oath. And he can't do that. Judges simply don't have that power."
Thompson, in his ruling, agreed with the plaintiffs that the massive monument, prominently displayed in the rotunda, violates the constitutional ban on government promotion of religion.
A federal appeals court refused to overturn the ruling. Moore has filed an appeal with the U.S. Supreme Court.
After the deadline to remove the monument expired at midnight Wednesday, the Alabama Supreme Court's eight associate justices ordered that the monument be removed "as soon as practicable."
"The refusal of officers of this court to obey a binding order of a federal court of competent jurisdiction would impair the authority and ability of all of the courts of this state to enforce their judgments," the justices ruled.
Pryor, a Republican who has been nominated for a federal judgeship, applauded the justices' order. "The rule of law means that no person, including the chief justice of Alabama, is above the law," he said.
Asked on CNN whether he would support an Islamic monument to the Koran in the rotunda of the federal building, Moore replied, "This nation was founded upon the laws of God, not upon the Koran. That's clear in the Declaration [of Independence], so it wouldn't fit history and it wouldn't fit law."
Moore installed the monument in August 2001 without consulting other justices. The lawsuit was filed shortly afterward.
Source: CNN
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08-23-2003 08:06 AM
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Idol2Fan
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| quote: |
Originally posted by Maja88
What a bunch of craps.
If America's culture was originately based on Christianity and its laws were founded upon the laws of God, then why shouldn't there be a monument showing that? Why should Americans be ashame of their own culture? |
America was not and is not based on Christianity and our laws were not founded upon the laws of God. It has nothing to do with being ashamed of our own culture, as you see it.
If the U.S. had based it's laws on God, we would never have had slavery. Indian's would exist in large numbers, as common citizens and U.S. governmental leaders. It would not have taken so long for blacks and women to be able to vote, as they would have been allowed from the beginning. Capitol punishment would not be, as it is only God's right to deliver the punishment of death. The list of where we are lacking in God, goes on and on.
The problem came in when the U.S. came up with the bright idea of keeping God and government separated. If we really acknowledged God and what he want's, we would not have the problems we have. Now, one man who is in the business of dictating and enforcing law upon us, comes along and thinks that he himself can ignore it. He should not get away with breaking any law. He should be abiding by the same laws that every man, woman and child are held accountable to. If he truly wanted to make a statement, he would be fighting for the integration of God and government, instead of trying to get away with creating his own.
He is taking the law into his own hands, instead of creating the proper channels, that are necessary, for changing the things that we don't like.
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08-23-2003 06:21 PM
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Mike James
The One... and the Two
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Local time: 01:51 AM
Location: Rice University
Posts: 1191
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Exactly, Dreamz... Separation of Church and State is designed to protect the Church from the State, not the other way around.
If the momunent had been of a Koran or Book of Mormon or something, I doubt anyone would have cared. This nation is going to hell (in more than one sense) because, it its drvie to create freedom of religion, religious freedom is being taken away from Christians, the faith that founded this nation. We are ONE NATION UNDER GOD, and IN GOD WE TRUST. That didn't come from nowhere. It's our heritage and our founding values.
The ten commandments are the base of all good character. EVERY religion around the world has their own version of the Ten, and NOTHING written by ANY religion has EVER contradicted any but the first one. Having a monument doesn't force you to become a Christian or follow the Ten. It's only a link to our past, a monument of our founding values, that urges all who go to the Alabama State Courthouse to think about who they are.
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08-23-2003 10:47 PM
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INVAR
[Why Pink?] [Ignore User]
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Registered: May 2003
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America was not and is not based on Christianity and our laws were not founded upon the laws of God.
Wrong.
Dead wrong.
Try reading the Declaration of Independence, the Federalist papers, the diary writings of Jefferson, Adams, Hamilton, Henry and Washington for starters.
Our entire foundation of law is based on scripture/the law of God as codified in the 10 Commandments. The Fouders and Framers themselves have said so.
Hamilton himself said that this Republic would only last as long as "the people were a moral and God-fearing people in respect to the laws of God".
Our entire bedrock of jurisprudence and Justice is based on the Law of God/10 Commandments. Western society's entire moral foundation and fabric is based on the law of God. We would have no understanding of morality, or what was considered moral without it.
If the U.S. had based it's laws on God, we would never have had slavery.
Non-sequiter and totally wrong. Scripture is REPLEAT with examples of slavery. There is nothing in scripture forbidding Slavery, and as a fact both in the Old and New Testaments, God instructs His people on how to be respectful and obediant slaves to whomever had authority over them.
We came to understand that true liberty and freedom could NOT be afforded just a select group of human beings, but ALL MEN as written in the Declaration.
Indian's would exist in large numbers, as common citizens and U.S. governmental leaders.
Irrelevant. Scripture itself details God instructing His people to completely wipe out by force of arms and death, entire tribes of people in order that they posess the lands He would give them in Canaan.
It would not have taken so long for blacks and women to be able to vote, as they would have been allowed from the beginning.
In scripture, only men were allowed to have a say in the civil affairs of their nation.
Capitol punishment would not be, as it is only God's right to deliver the punishment of death.
You are completely ignorant of scripture. God instructed His people to put to DEATH by stoning and other methods - those who broke the Law.
The problem came in when the U.S. came up with the bright idea of keeping God and government separated.
SHOW ME NOW, WHERE IN THE CONSTITUTION OR THE DECLARATION ARE THOSE WORDS ARE STATED.
You won't find them.
There is no such thing as 'separation of church and state' enshrined in the language and meaning you people give it in the Constitution or the Declaration.
If we really acknowledged God and what he want's, we would not have the problems we have.
True. We wouldn't be removing any mention or symbol or reminder of Him or His Laws from public view.
Now, one man who is in the business of dictating and enforcing law upon us, comes along and thinks that he himself can ignore it.
Firstoff, NO JUDGE CAN DICTATE LAW. That is TYRANNY. That is EXACTLY what the Federal Judge has done - DICTATE LAW.
SHOW ME THE LAW written in the Constitution that forbids the free exercize of religious belief? SHOW ME THE LAW that states no community can erect monuments to God in their public places.
There is no such law.
Just legal precedents based ont eh will and whim of Lawyers and Judges - WHO DO NOT MAKE LAW. They are there to ENFORCE and MEASURE CASES BASED on the LAW. Not create their own law.
King George the III didn't wield as much power as these Federal Judges have.
He should not get away with breaking any law.
SHOW ME THE LAW HE BROKE.
Go on...show me. Where is it? A federal Judge CANNOT MAKE LAW BY DECREE. This federal judge VIOLATED both the 10th and 1st Amendments of the United States Constitution.
He should be abiding by the same laws that every man, woman and child are held accountable to.
He is, it's called he's upholding his oath of office to the State of Alabama.
If he truly wanted to make a statement, he would be fighting for the integration of God and government, instead of trying to get away with creating his own.
What part of "Shall make no law.... or prohibit the FREE EXERCIZE THEROF" do you fail to understand?
He is taking the law into his own hands, instead of creating the proper channels, that are necessary, for changing the things that we don't like.
Hell no. If a federal Judge by Ruling, can MAKE LAW - then America is a Tyranny and the Constitution is dead and irrelevant. You have no Rights the government has to acknowledge because the government or a Judge can rule them irrelevant by the stroke of a gavel or pen. Our birthrights come from God - NOT MEN. If our Rights come from men, then they can be taken away by men - and that is something our Founders EXPRESSELY FORBID.
We are endowed with certain Rights BY OUR CREATOR, and as such are of a Higher Law that this government CANNOT TOUCH.
But this entire argument itself is just more proof that America is going the way of Rome - only a hell af alot quicker.
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08-24-2003 01:07 AM
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Dreamzwalker
Agent
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Registered: Feb 2003
Local time: 01:51 AM
Location: Out there Somewhere
Posts: 2428
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When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.--Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States.
Here's the part in the "The Declaration of Independence"
The other one I will have to post later.
Mention of God and "Creator."
No they are not talking about mother earth.
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08-24-2003 01:10 AM
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Kookaburra
In the Now Guru
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Registered: Jun 2003
Local time: 02:51 AM
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Posts: 2411
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| quote: |
| If we really acknowledged God and what he want's, we would not have the problems we have. |
| quote: |
Originally posted by INVAR
True. We wouldn't be removing any mention or symbol or reminder of Him or His Laws from public view.
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And we wouldn't create television shows that violate God's laws, and we wouldn't create forums that promote such shows. Although, I recognize no one claimed this forum to be God fearing, and they are exercising their right to freedom of speech. I'm here for the other forums, but would give anything to be able to turn off the forums such as Harry Potter and the discusting gay shows.
We wouldn't do a lot of things as a country, if we truly feared God and cared about His ways.
You are right... we are having a lot of problems, and I just learned on the news that when a Veteran's family receives the American flag, the presenter is not allowed to say; "God bless you".
When is enough going to be enough? You know what I hope happens? I hope those that fear God and serve Him will be given the opportunity Lot was given, and Noah was given. I hope when God has had enough with America, for going against our foundational truths which ARE based on Biblical principles, that He will let the rest of us escape His wrath.
I believe this country is in for a rude awakening for trying to remove God from everything. I really hope God steps in on behalf of all of us that DO NOT want Him removed.
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08-24-2003 05:27 AM
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Kookaburra
In the Now Guru
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| quote: |
Originally posted by Dreamzwalker
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --
I'm one of those being governed and I do not consent to the government removing God from anything!
That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.
I am safe and secure knowing I'm a child of God, and I am happiest when I'm allowed to publically display my Bible, pray in school, freely serve the God of my country, and worship my Creator whenever, and wherever I want.
And since the government is trying to take those rights away from us, do I read correctly that we the People can alter or abolish it and institue a new Government? I vote we institute a government that crowns the Lord as ruler over America, and let only those in government who do not violate our rights to obey God's laws. I vote we are allowed to conduct business and personal affairs according to the Biblical principles, and no one can sue us for saying God, or bringing a Bible to work, or telling us we can't pray before corporate meetings.
Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.
I am accustomed to serving the God of Abraham, which also happens to be the same God our founding fathers served when they wrote the laws for our country.
I find it funny that these people think they are abolishing God from our country. Don't they know He's everwhere? They can make whatever paper document law they want to, but that won't get rid of Him. He's here to stay, and if we have to break your pathetic laws and risk getting fined or going to prison, we will STILL SERVE OUR GOD 
But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.--
Hmmmm... when can this take place? I think we should vote them all off the island...  Oh wait.. wrong show.
Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States.
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GOD BLESS YOU !
Last edited by Kookaburra on 08-24-2003 at 06:00 AM |
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08-24-2003 05:51 AM
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Marlene Newell
No title, Just me
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Registered: Jul 2003
Local time: 11:51 PM
Location: Sunnyvale, California
Posts: 1010
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| quote: |
Originally posted by Mike James
Exactly, Dreamz... Separation of Church and State is designed to protect the Church from the State, not the other way around.
If the momunent had been of a Koran or Book of Mormon or something, I doubt anyone would have cared. This nation is going to hell (in more than one sense) because, it its drvie to create freedom of religion, religious freedom is being taken away from Christians, the faith that founded this nation. We are ONE NATION UNDER GOD, and IN GOD WE TRUST. That didn't come from nowhere. It's our heritage and our founding values.
The ten commandments are the base of all good character. EVERY religion around the world has their own version of the Ten, and NOTHING written by ANY religion has EVER contradicted any but the first one. Having a monument doesn't force you to become a Christian or follow the Ten. It's only a link to our past, a monument of our founding values, that urges all who go to the Alabama State Courthouse to think about who they are. |
Mike, I had to laugh at your quip about the Book of Mormon -- no one caring. I guess you are unaware that the Book of Mormon got the Mormons driven from Vermont to New York to Ohio to Missouri to Illinois to Utah -- with an extermination order in Missouri and the federal army sent to Utah on pretty much the same purpose.
No, my friend, if a monument to the Book of Mormon were put up, you would see Christians and atheists unite like you have never seen before.
Same goes for the Koran.
On the subject of the 10 commandments, any person who is offended by them -- well, you have my sympathy if you aren't willing to live such basic laws and to be reminded of them when you go into public places.
Think how much better this world would be if everyone just lived the 10 commandments. If they loved and honored their God (whomever it is), if they honored their parents, if they didn't lie or steal or bear false witness; and if they didn't commit adultery or murder. How many jail cells would be left empty? How many more resources could be devoted to feeding the hungry and clothing the naked? How many more familes would stay together and children raised in homes of love? How much less war?
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08-24-2003 08:42 AM
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INVAR
[Why Pink?] [Ignore User]
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One of the Ten Commandments says to not worship another idol before God and yet THAT is what these people (who want the monument to remain) are doing with this monument.
Ridiculous and utterly absurd! This is not an idol of worship - but a REMINDER of the Law of God. Why do you think God Himself WROTE THE LAW ON STONE? It was to be a monument to HIS LAW. The Israelites carried those stone monuments around with them. They were a continual reminder of the permanence and immovability of His Law.
While the Law of God itself is spiritual - the ongoing onslaught to REMOVE God from public view, mention or display is directly responsible for the debauchery and decay now permissible and protected by the backward laws of men.
God and the actual 10 commandments are way more important than this monument.
Sorry, our birthrights as bestowed by Our Creator and protected and enshrined by the Constitution are at stake here.
The Federal Judge has decreed that we have no right to freely exercize our religious convictions by this ruling - which in itself is unConstitutional. This judge VIOLATED the 10th Amendment to PROHIBIT the 1st, of which you say is Law by his ruling. Only Congress and the legislatures can make law - and the 1st specifically states "Congress SHALL MAKE NO LAW respecting the establishment of a religion or prohibit the free exercize therof. The Judge is out of his authority, and acting as a tyrant to squash our birthrights as he sees fit in his own personal interpretation.
If these people really cared about God and the 10 Commandments, they would want monument taken down to separate church and state.
Then we will have surrendered our birthrights to the State and the Rule of Men. As such we will no longer have Rights - but priveledges that can be rescinded by men whenever they decide to take away those priveledges.
It is the separation of Church and State that allows us to practice any religion we want in this country.
SHOW ME IN THE CONSTITUTION WHERE THE CLAUSE "SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE" IS WRITTEN!
You will not find it. It isn't there. It is only by the clever manipulation of lawyers and activism of Judges that created the myth that there is such a separation.
There is no such separation. Only the prohibition of the government to make a law respecting the ESTABLISHMENT of religion as was done in england and elsewhere.
It protects our right to choose our religion and practice it whenever we want.
It does NOT give authority for the Federal to PROHIBIT YOUR FREE EXERCIZE of your religious belief, conviction and display EITHER.
Move that monument to your backyard or to a church and bow to it all day if you want.
No can do. If we cannot acknowledge God in our public places, it will soon be prohibited in our private places - as is ALREADY HAPPENING with court orders for churches to REMOVE CROSSES, PROHIBIT MARQUEES FROM ANY BIBLICAL QUOTES and REMOVAL OF CROSS MARKERS FROM CEMETARIES.
This is about the removal of any acknowledgement of God within sight or earshot of the public PERIOD.
It is about our birthrights which are inalienable as they are from God - to be hijacked by the rule of men - and as such, become slaves to secular tyranny.
But we can't have the monument at a courthouse.
Yes we can. If we cannot, then the Liberty Bell must be removed because it contains a biblical verse, the Supreme Court must remove 2 Freizes and 2 sculptures adorning the building, the Pledge must be banned or rewritten, prayer before each Congressional session must be halted, bibles must be removed from courts for swearing-in etc., etc., etc.
By these actions, we remove God from our Laws, upon which the Founders laid our entire system of jurisprudence and monetary law - and we are ruled by the will and whim of men - beholden to any minority or majority agenda prevailing in the mind of those that rule.
King Geroge III dodn;t posess as much power or wield that kind of tyranny - yet here you are demanding we subject ourselves to it.
NO!
We Won't.
The courthouse must remain free of attachments to the church.
The courthouse is NOT attached to any church, our LAWS are attached to scripture - our birthrights are attached to God as revealed in scripture and codified in the 10 Commandments.
After all, the Ten Commandments has little to do with the law. Only a few of them are actual laws.
You are hopelessly ignorant of Scripture, the Constitution and the intents of the Founders who revered God in every aspect of their being, both personal and political and wrote about those intents vociferously in letters, diaries and the published words of the Federalist Papers.
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08-25-2003 07:00 PM
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Kookaburra
In the Now Guru
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| quote: |
Originally posted by auntgoldie
Invar. What is you're response to Moore calling for all good "Christians" to come forward. Why only Christians? This man's name begins with a "M" standing for Moron, Maniac, Manipulator. |
He was most likely asking Christians to come forward because he knows the heart of a true Christian is to obey God. He's looking for support from God's children, to take a stand.
The New Testaments refered to Christians as being followers of Christ. Moore is asking followers of Christ to step forward, be counted, and unashamed to fight for our birth rights and freedom to keep God as the God of our nation.
If there are others out there who do not call themselves Christians, but have accepted Christ as their Savior, and obey God, then he means them too. If they aren't calling themselves Christians, it may be because they don't understand what Christian means. It just means we are followers of Christ. There was not suppose to be a label put on a Christian, such as Baptist, Catholic, etc. I'm a Christian, but I don't have a label. I'm a follower of Christ, and I am willing to risk jail, fines, or even death to follow Christ.
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08-25-2003 07:55 PM
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