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devildog
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post #181  quote:

With Hollywood assaulting the tradition of Marriage , it has already "cheapen" this institution. This is dangerous Chel. Maybe you aren't able to see it, but it does. Any further assualt could be crippling. With 70 % of blacks being born out of wedlock you can't suggest this has no affect on US. Britney Spears in a sense recently demonstrated that if you want you can get married on a whim....then annull it. No big deal!! Marriage can't sustain any more!! This is not a Gay thing. It's a marriage thing.I look out for the country and you are focussed on yourself or anyone else who wants no moral foundation and fear any kind of control over their sexual proclivaties. I don't expect you to "get" it so we can just disagree. Deal?
And I haven't heard anyone pipe in about this question:

Lets say that a law is passed that grants all rights to a civil union as the same as traditional Marriage. Benefits from work,Hospital rights etc.
Is this good enough?? Or do you have to have the word Marriage? I would like everyone to post their opinions. Thanks


Old Post 02-19-2004 06:34 PM
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Lawless
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post #182  quote:

What I want to know, devildog, is something that I asked you last night...
What diffference will it make, to you, if we have marriages, but it's called something else? How does that make it different?
And, let me tell you, it's people, straight couples, who cheapen marriage.
What Heidi and I want isn't going to cheapen it. We have been together 5 years, and are very commited to one another.
We aren't Britney Spears. We aren't having children and leaving them.
We are two people who LOVE one another. Two people who are DEVOTED to each other, and to our relationship.

Anyway... like I said last night, changing the name of it tells me that you, and others still feel that we, homosexuals, aren't first class that we deserve something less. That's where I stand.


Old Post 02-19-2004 06:40 PM
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chelktty
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post #183  quote:

Honestly Devil, I wouldn't complain if civil unions were considered as an equivilant to marriage. But I'm not gay, so I can't speak for the first gay couple that was able to wed after spending over half a century devoted to each other. I don't know, I'm sure that gays and lesbians have lifelong dreams of weddings just like heterosexuals.

I can understand your point about Hollywood marriages dampering the sanctity of marriage. But I don't see what relevance "70% of blacks being born out of wedlock" has to do with gay marriage. What about the dedicated homosexual couples who've been faithful to each other for decades? Don't you think that their dedication would do more to reaffirm the faith in marriage than Britney Spears' 5 hour honeymoon? Don't you think that that lesbian couple who have been together for 50 + years will show more for the sanctity of a dedicated and monogamous marriage than Billy Bob in Bartow County Florida marrying his 16 year old first cousin?
Maybe celebrities should be restricted to civil unions because of their track records with it. But people won't allow that. People don't care how much the sanctity of marriage is destroyed, as long as it's man and woman doing it....right?
Hmmm I dunno Devil, flimsy argument. Come on, I know you have more than just that.


Old Post 02-19-2004 07:35 PM
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devildog
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post #184  quote:

I agree with most of KJ's and Chel's post.
So one gay peson has entered their opinion. That is that it is not good enough to have equal "rights" with a civil union. I thought that was what it is all about KJ.

Anyway... like I said last night, changing the name of it tells me that you, and others still feel that we, homosexuals, aren't first class that we deserve something less.

Something less??? I said IF everything was the EXACT same except the word Marriage. Not enough you say.This makes me believe that it is perhaps about something more than same options afforded to Married couples. Marriage has been define as such since the beginning of time KJ. So it seems to me that you won't be happy until we redefine the term Marriage. Unreal. Rights have nothing to do with it. You want to be embraced and accepted, as far as I can tell. Sorry, but that won't happen anytime soon. Wrong? Perhaps. But as I posted before, life isn't fair and anyone who comes from a poor background can attest. So can fat people, people with acne, people with glasses. A piece of paper will not stop the hazing. Take the Civil Union thing w/ all the same bennies as the rest of us and run with it, I say.
And the 70% of kids born without a mother and father in the black community should be self evident but I guess not. Do you think these children have the same opportunities/chances as a child that comes from a stable home has?? Do you need stats to tell you the answer to this common sense equation? They are instantly put in a situation, without their control , that puts them behind the eight ball from birth. This is common sense. Just like when a teenager has a child,the chances of them being economically challenged for the rest of their life goes up dramatically. They will more than likely be poor for their entire life. Perhaps if they knew this than they might think twice. How many Kids in your school were pregnant? We had 1 girl,and she was looked upon as a pariah. Now girls walk around high school like it is no big deal. My niece is a senior in High School and the number of teenage pregnancies are jaw dropping. I see the moral underpinnings of this Country being destroyed,and I don't like it. Again this is not a gay thing as I agree that Hetero's do quite enough to dampen the institution of Marriage. This is because they already see Marriage as a joke. It is portrayed as such everywhere I look. It has to stop. This country needs guidance, this country needs leadership, this country needs respectable clergy again, Authority figures here need to be held in high esteem instead of disrespected, this country needs to teach our children right from wrong, this country needs an enema.


Old Post 02-19-2004 08:36 PM
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post #185  quote:

but unfortunately, the only way to enforce that is through tyranny.

so now we're back to square one.


Old Post 02-19-2004 08:40 PM
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post #186  quote:

No, I don't think that I would be 'unhappy', devildog. It's just a hard pill to swallow. Sure, having all the same exact rights, privledges, etc... would make me very happy. And, it won't change the fact that it is STILL a marriage.

So, here's what I want to know... if it's all the same thing, just a different term, what does it matter? Because it is the same thing. It is a marriage, whether you would choose to acknowledge that or not. She would STILL be my wife, and I hers. So, where is the difference?


Old Post 02-19-2004 08:45 PM
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devildog
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post #187  quote:

I disagree, an oppressive Government of 1 would do nothing to put us on the right path.

Virginia is the most beautiful state in the union in my opinion by the way and you are lucky to live there. I lived in Quantico (30 miles south of DC) for 3 years and miss it tremendously. How 'bout we switch homes for a few months a year ?


Old Post 02-19-2004 08:50 PM
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devildog
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post #188  quote:

quote:
KJ said this in post #186 :
No, I don't think that I would be 'unhappy', devildog. It's just a hard pill to swallow. Sure, having all the same exact rights, privledges, etc... would make me very happy. And, it won't change the fact that it is STILL a marriage.

So, here's what I want to know... if it's all the same thing, just a different term, what does it matter? Because it is the same thing. It is a marriage, whether you would choose to acknowledge that or not. She would STILL be my wife, and I hers. So, where is the difference?


I thought I have been answering that question for quite some time now KJ. And yes I would acknowledge it.


Old Post 02-19-2004 08:55 PM
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post #189  quote:

well I'm from right around there in Manassas.

but now I live in the friggin cold, windy, miserable mountains. So maybe you might wanna stay in sunny Florida


Old Post 02-19-2004 08:58 PM
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post #190  quote:

Well, I guess that I was confused by your answers. Was just trying to see where you fell in that scheme of things.

Okay, so, if you acknowlege it, how does that make it matter whether it's called a marriage or a union? I guess that I'm just confused on this. And if others feel the same way, then why isn't a "Union" with ALL the exact benefits, rights, privledges being passed into law?


Old Post 02-19-2004 09:00 PM
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devildog
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post #191  quote:

I feel it will soon be passed KJ.

Those same windy,cold,mountains that you dread Dekka, are desired by many, proving that human nature is to never be happy with what ya got. Ever notice a man fishing from a boat trying to cast as close to shore/sea wall as they can? Well right next to him is a man fishing from shore that wants to cast out as far as they can.


Old Post 02-19-2004 09:13 PM
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post #192  quote:

quote:
KJ said this in post #190 :
.. why isn't a "Union" with ALL the exact benefits, rights, privledges being passed into law?


Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think it's even square with hetero marriages yet. Law (because marriage in the U.S. does form some sort of legal obligations and status recognition) tends to favor women in some situations and men in others when it comes to divorce and such. Law would have to be changed to favor neither gender over the other for any reason what so ever in hetro unions before it would be in such a state as to be effectively applied to same-sex marriages.

Maybe my understanding is old-hat, but I just have horror stories in my head about how the woman leaves with the house, the car, the kids, etc in a bitter break-up leaving the man completely screwed - doesn't it take two to tango? Why should a failed relationship favor one or the other in a break-up? I think it USED to be that this was designed to protect women who were considered incapable of supporting themselves, earning their way, and were no longer of age to score a new husband to take care of them and so they were set up by the court. I don't think this should apply AT ALL today.


Old Post 02-19-2004 09:38 PM
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post #193  quote:

The point KJ and I are trying to make is, YES we want the same legal rights as anyone else. The Exact Same rights.

The difference between the wording of "Union" and "Marriage" is, people will still discriminate against you if you use the term Union. That immediately fingerprints you as GAY. And it still terms you as "less than". See where the trouble starts? Suddenly we have rights (with a union) but you still get to peg us as less than. Seperate but equal.

It is very heterosexist to want to have all of the privledges.

And let's just say that Civil Unions do pass with 100% equal rights. Do you seriously think we and our cool straight friends are going to use that term? No. And over time, the word Marriage will be applied and accepted, not Civil Union.


Old Post 02-20-2004 02:52 AM
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post #194  quote:

Oh, I see what you mean... like Jewish people wearing stars, just more subtle

Old Post 02-20-2004 03:38 AM
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post #195  quote:

Gaboman, did you mean the stars of the holocaust? Or the star of david.

Old Post 02-20-2004 03:45 AM
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chelktty
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post #196  quote:

quote:
outsider said this in post #193 :
The point KJ and I are trying to make is, YES we want the same legal rights as anyone else. The Exact Same rights.

The difference between the wording of "Union" and "Marriage" is, people will still discriminate against you if you use the term Union. That immediately fingerprints you as GAY. And it still terms you as "less than". See where the trouble starts? Suddenly we have rights (with a union) but you still get to peg us as less than. Seperate but equal.

It is very heterosexist to want to have all of the privledges.

And let's just say that Civil Unions do pass with 100% equal rights. Do you seriously think we and our cool straight friends are going to use that term? No. And over time, the word Marriage will be applied and accepted, not Civil Union.

Outsider,

This is the shortest and most simple phrasing about this argument that you've used so far, yet it speaks the most volume of what most of us are trying to say.

I can't add more to your comment, i't says enough by itself.

RIGHT ON!




Old Post 02-20-2004 03:58 AM
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devildog
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post #197  quote:

outsider said this in post #193 :
The point KJ and I are trying to make is, YES we want the same legal rights as anyone else. The Exact Same rights.

The difference between the wording of "Union" and "Marriage" is, people will still discriminate against you if you use the term Union. That immediately fingerprints you as GAY. And it still terms you as "less than". See where the trouble starts? Suddenly we have rights (with a union) but you still get to peg us as less than. Seperate but equal.

You really think that a piece of paper with "marriage" on it rather than "union" will solve that problem? I say this, people who think you are "less than" right now....will never feel any different. To quote Metallica? Sad but true.

And let's just say that Civil Unions do pass with 100% equal rights. Do you seriously think we and our cool straight friends are going to use that term? No. And over time, the word Marriage will be applied and accepted, not Civil Union.

I have never thought of that! Sounds very logical to me.


Old Post 02-20-2004 04:06 AM
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outsider
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post #198  quote:

Personally, a piece of paper to me is a piece of paper. But to answer your question, yes. I think it will make a difference.

Old Post 02-20-2004 04:19 AM
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