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adityamahesh
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post #91  quote:

quote:
Tvee said this in post #91 :



Well, atheism does not acknowledge God's existence. My use of "grey material" is a figure of speech denoting confusion. Whereas those who believe in God would need to consider so many other questions as monotheism (one God - Muslims and Christians agree on), another is divine personality (oh, this is complicated for muslims and even protestants and catholics disagree - plenty of "correct" answers).

Many are lost (confused) but the few who persevere till the end attain true wisdom and understanding of the real God. I think discussing God is really futile because it would be a personal thing for true knowledge to enlighten individuals.

It won't be religion but a personal commitment (relationship-partnership-friendship) with God that would matter more to finish the race. In this regard, the holy, humble and unassuming faithful fare better than the proud and "educated" pharisees and high priests. Poor knowledge is a heavy baggage to carry around and prevents many to reach the final goal of redemption.


I know you meant 'gray material' as a figure of speech, I just wasn't sure you were defining atheism as fuzzy or religion as fuzzy.

Although I don't believe in christian God or the christian idea of redemption, I agree that religion should be a personal experience unhindered by any organization. You might appreciate this quote from a great Indian spiritual leader Swami Vivekananda: "Let the number of religions multiply till every person in this World has their own."

M.


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Sierradaddy
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post #92  quote:

quote:
sowhatsthetruth said this in post #92 :
Redemption isn't the final goal, redemption is the beginning of relationship with Yahweh. The redeemed are the only ones who can enter into His presence.


What's the final goal?


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post #93  quote:

adityamahesh,

Just asking , just to ask.

I am not sure....you say you are not atheist, and you do not believe in Yahweh, and you are from India....

Would it be safe to conclude you are of the Hindu religion.....???

Again, just asking.


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post #94  quote:

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Sierradaddy said this in post #94 :


What's the final goal?


The ultimate goal is assured for the redeemed.....eternal life communing with Yahweh....in ways we really do not understand in this physical body.
Adam and his help mete communed with Yahweh until the fall.....

However, you are probably asking what is the final goal while on this earth.....

You first have to realize that humans only see time as beginning to end...start to goal.....
This is not how Yahweh sees us....
He is concerned about maintaining a constant dialogue with Him, loving Him, trusting Him for body/mind/spirit needs, trusting Him to work through us....not work FOR Him.

The closer you commune with Yahweh on this Earth, the closer you will commune with Him in eternity. Relationship....it's about relationship....healthy loving relationship....

He brings back the prodigal sons and daughters into His fold (I was one), He is the Daddy I could never have on this Earth....., I am my Beloved's and He is mine....I am betrothed to Him....He is my All in all.

So the final result I am looking for is the marriage to the Lamb, (Messiah Yahshua) to be a part of His bride. ... Revelation 19:9

The Bible teaches that Yahshua is the head of the church and the church is the body.

I want to be the rib portion of the body....like Adam's mate was to Adam....close to His heart.


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post #95  quote:

I've always felt that it was selfish to have the ultimate final goal to be heaven... I guess that for me, it's like looking at the reward instead of the reward-giver, and appreciating the reward MORE than the reward-giver. I don't think that is a good thing to do.

I think you're right about what He's looking for from us. A constant, honorable relationship. I think that for those who have THAT as their only goal, heaven begins on earth for them, and they experience what Steven experienced the day of his stoning.


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post #96  quote:

Yes, I think it must really cause Him grief to see so many of His redeemed asking for prosperity and things and influence and power.
Once we see like the apostle Paul that Yahshua is our reward....it all falls into place.

And that is why, no matter what I have been through, whatever I am going through, and whatever I go through in the future.....I see Him parting through the clouds of darkness....and I KNOW I can make it through....
He's there in the fire, He's there in the stonings, He's there in unemployment....nothing can separate me from His love. Nothing.


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adityamahesh
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post #97  quote:

quote:
sowhatsthetruth said this in post #95 :
adityamahesh,

Just asking , just to ask.

I am not sure....you say you are not atheist, and you do not believe in Yahweh, and you are from India....

Would it be safe to conclude you are of the Hindu religion.....???

Again, just asking.


To answer your question, technically and legally I am a Hindu, yes, so I am heathen par excellence, and I love it. However, I do not belong to any particular school of Hindu thought or belief.

M.


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post #98  quote:

adityamahesh
Please answer my ignorent questions if you feel led to.....

Where do Hare Krishnas fall into the Hindu religion? I used to eat at their center once a week because they served the most incredible curried food.
Do you believe in Brahma, Shiva, or Krishna?
Do you know who Krishnamurti is and if so, what do you think of him?
Same as above for Paramahansa Yogananda...
Do you have a guru? Would you like to be a guru?
Have you read the Bhagavad Gita? If so, what do you think of it?
Do you burn incense on a regular basis?
Do you meditate?
What do you think about Deepak Chopra? Hindu lite? Guru? Have you read any of his books?
Tantric yoga...is this a derivative ot the Hindu religion?
What do you think of Kundalini yoga? Ever practiced it?
What are the 7 chakras and their significance?


Just a few questions if you feel so inclined. Thanks.


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post #99  quote:

i have a question too

at Taco Bell, Indians rarely order beef. They always substitute beans. Sometimes they'll eat chicken.

But they often order the Chilli & Cheese Burritos.

Do you think it is because they do not realize that chilli has beef in it?


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adityamahesh
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post #100  quote:

quote:
sowhatsthetruth said this in post #100 :
adityamahesh
Please answer my ignorent questions if you feel led to.....

Where do Hare Krishnas fall into the Hindu religion? I used to eat at their center once a week because they served the most incredible curried food.
Do you believe in Brahma, Shiva, or Krishna?

The Hare Krishna movement follows the bhakti marga. In Hindu philosophy there are two ways to achieve nirvana (freedom of soul from life and death cycle) and company of God: Bhakti (devotion) and Gyana (knowledge) marga (path). Hare Krishna followers have Krishna/Vishnu as their primary diety. Brahma (the creator), Vishnu (the preserver) and Shiva (the destroyer) are just three aspects of the same God. My family worships all Gods and Godesses equally but I have forsaken idol worship and see the different Gods as different manifestations of the supreme deity. You might find this surprising, but Brahma has only one temple, I repeat one temple devoted to him in India. Supposedly his worship was prohibited by the other two deities in a mythological tale.

Do you know who Krishnamurti is and if so, what do you think of him?
Same as above for Paramahansa Yogananda...

I don't know who Krisnamurthi is, but I have heard a bit about Paramahansa Yogananda. He was a great yogi and spiritual leader.

Do you have a guru? Would you like to be a guru?

I don't have a guru but I consider Swami Vivekananda, Maharashi Dayananda Saraswati and Sri Aurobindo Ghosh to be great commentators and authors and above all supremely spiritual beings who helped my country rejuvenate from its destitute morale.

Have you read the Bhagavad Gita? If so, what do you think of it?

I have read parts of Bhagvad Gita, atleast the parts that have not been tampered with. Over the milliennia a lot of things have been added to it by unscrupulous people. In its purest form it is a great text on how humans should conduct themselves and the nature of the World.

Do you burn incense on a regular basis?

I don't but most regular worshippers do. I would but I don't want to cause the smoke alarm to go off. Plus they are quite expensive here.

What do you think about Deepak Chopra? Hindu lite? Guru? Have you read any of his books?

I have not read his work but from what I know he combines some good stuff with a lot of nonsense and is fully capitalising on his popularity trying to make as much money as he can. Plus I doubt I need his books when I have the wisdom of Vivekananda, Maharashi Saraswati and Sri Aurobindo to ponder over.

Tantric yoga...is this a derivative ot the Hindu religion?
What do you think of Kundalini yoga? Ever practiced it?

Tantrik and Kundalini yoga are forms of yoga just like Hatha yoga and Raja yoga are. They are just more maligned because of their association with exotic sex and Kama Sutra. Yoga literally means Union (with the Supreme Spirit/Nature/Energy). It consists of two parts, physical and mental/spiritual. Physical yoga is necessary first because mental and spiritual health cannot be gained without the body being fit and tuned. That is what most people do when they talk about 'doing yoga'. They never proceed to the mental/spiritual level because quite frankly there aren't that many teachers who can properly teach it. I doubt many of them even know yoga as something other than an exotic excercise that seems to produce better results. Physical attunement alone can take many years, mental/spiritual much longer than that. It all requires iron resolve (including celibacy for the first few years) which quite frankly most people don't have, myself included. I am trying to improve myself though.

What are the 7 chakras and their significance?

Once I did deep research into the chakras and I believe I only scratched the surface. The seven chakras are in essence powerhouses of mental and spiritual energy that once tapped can result in extraordinary mental and spiritual energy and physical energy as well. Some people have more active chakras than others and as a result they are by nature more energetic, powerful and magnetic. I haven't read about chakras in a while, time to refresh myself I think.

Just a few questions if you feel so inclined. Thanks.


I don't mind answering questions at all.

M.


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adityamahesh
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post #101  quote:

quote:
Dekka00 said this in post #101 :
i have a question too

at Taco Bell, Indians rarely order beef. They always substitute beans. Sometimes they'll eat chicken.

But they often order the Chilli & Cheese Burritos.

Do you think it is because they do not realize that chilli has beef in it?


I eat all kinds of meat so I don't know what they are thinking but from my observations I think that they do not know that chilli contains beef, atleast not at first. With chilli being spicy and containing beans, it is the closest they can have to Indian food.

M.


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post #102  quote:

Ga?al/redeem is an awesome word. It describes a very specific form of salvation?that of paying the price to liberate someone from captivity, death, and destruction.

Webster says:
ga?al/redeem is: ?to buy back, to release from blame or debt, to free from the consequence of sin, to extricate and liberate from captivity, distress, and death by the payment of a ransom, to repair, reform, and restore.?

Lexicons say:
(ga?al ? relative who is my Savior, the One whose blood releases, sets free, and restores, the kinsman and close relative who restores, those who have been ransomed by the act of a kinsman redeemer)


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post #103  quote:

quote:
Tvee said this in post #104 :


Satan obviously had a relationship but did it last? The way was established by our master & teacher. All he asks is for us to follow him.



There is HUGE error in this statement.
Satan is an archangel....a fallen archangel at that.

Humans are made in Yahweh's image, angels are not. -- Genesis 1:26

Humans can be redeemed, angels cannot.

Angels cannot marry, humans can be established in close relationship with Yahweh and have the ability to be in the bride of Yahshua.

No, He doesn't only ask us to follow Him, He asks us to love Yahweh with our entire being...our hearts, souls, minds, and strength....and to love our neighbours as ourselves.

All WILL NOT be saved....all who reject God's love and way of salvation through Yahshua's sacrifice on the cross will be judged to the lake of fire.

Christians will also enter a judgment separate from the White throne judgment. It is called the Bema (judgment) seat of Christ. This is where our works of the flesh will burn as wood, hay, and stubble, and the works of the Spirit will be tried in the fire as gold, silver, and precious stones. There are rewards (crowns) in heaven...eternal life is a sure thing. -- 1 Corinthians 3:12-15

By the way, there is no divorce in the divine relationship with Yahweh...from either side.....
Again, you cannot work your way to heaven.....you have either been redeemed or you have not been redeemed. (see devildog's last post)


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adityamahesh
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post #104  quote:

quote:
sowhatsthetruth said this in post #106 :
By the way, there is no divorce in the divine relationship with Yahweh...from either side.....
Again, you cannot work your way to heaven.....you have either been redeemed or you have not been redeemed.


This reminds me of the movie Constantine where John Constantine tries to buy his way into heaven.

M.


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post #105  quote:

By the way, Adity, thanks for answering my questions.

In my previous life, I practiced Kundalini yoga not for the sexual properties, but for the awakening of all the chakras...which would include the sexual/creative center, but also the other six as well.

I've been meaning to watch Constantine....


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adityamahesh
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post #106  quote:

Awakening the Kundalini is extremely difficult and dangerous. First the Ida and Pingala nerves have to be be made strong and balanced. If not done properly it can result in irreparable damage, but its rewards are great as well. I am by no means an expert on yoga though.

Constantine is a cool film. Although I am not a Christian I appreciated it's message that only by self-sacrifice could Constantine redeem himself. Plus I like Keanu Reeves. And Rachel Weisz is so hot.

M.


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post #107  quote:

Hmmmm self-sacrifice Constantine redeemed himself Hmmmmm

sounds like a mixture of Hinduism, Buddhism and Christianity..... in a word "newage" ?? -- but then again, Keanu Reeves is making a career of portraying newage "Christ" figures.

Kundalini yoga is hugely dangerous, I agree.


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post #108  quote:

Oh no, the movie was purely Christian I assure you. Nothing new age about it. Constantine is a guy who can see and communicate with entities from both Heaven and Hell who exist on different planes in this World and there is a delicate balance between good and evil which is about to be disturbed. You should definitely see it. I am sure you will disagree with some of its parts but you might end up enjoying it.

There is a scene where he has a Christ-like pose though. But he is also flipping off the Devil in the same scene.

M.


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post #109  quote:

Still I will have to see this...as much as I enjoy film and as much as this has been recommended to me by several people....

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post #110  quote:

The film is spiritually lost, T. The movie was enjoyable, I guess, but don't think for a second that the makers had a clue. I just had to laugh at it, and enjoy it for what it is. I wonder why they don't make one about the real Constantine

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post #111  quote:

quote:
sowhatsthetruth said this in post #106 :


There is HUGE error in this statement.
Satan is an archangel....a fallen archangel at that.


What was the error in the statement? Seems to me that as an angel, and an archangel at that, he had an extremely close relationship with God, more real in many ways than we can have at this point with God, wouldn't you agree?

quote:
Humans are made in Yahweh's image, angels are not. -- Genesis 1:26

Humans can be redeemed, angels cannot.


I'm not 100% sure on that. I believe that God would forgive and redeem an angel if they truly repented. God would work another miracle similar to The Cross for any angel that wanted to be redeemed. He loves them just as much as He loves us. And in a sense, angels are also made in God's image; the image of a spiritual being.

quote:
Angels cannot marry, humans can be established in close relationship with Yahweh and have the ability to be in the bride of Yahshua.


But that doesn't represent the redemption. That represents a marriage ceremony whereby we are symbollically linked, "that were I am, there ye may be also" At least, that's how I see the bride metaphor.

quote:
No, He doesn't only ask us to follow Him, He asks us to love Yahweh with our entire being...our hearts, souls, minds, and strength....and to love our neighbours as ourselves.

All WILL NOT be saved....all who reject God's love and way of salvation through Yahshua's sacrifice on the cross will be judged to the lake of fire.

Christians will also enter a judgment separate from the White throne judgment. It is called the Bema (judgment) seat of Christ. This is where our works of the flesh will burn as wood, hay, and stubble, and the works of the Spirit will be tried in the fire as gold, silver, and precious stones. There are rewards (crowns) in heaven...eternal life is a sure thing. -- 1 Corinthians 3:12-15

By the way, there is no divorce in the divine relationship with Yahweh...from either side.....
Again, you cannot work your way to heaven.....you have either been redeemed or you have not been redeemed. (see devildog's last post)


A rather interesting line of thinking, is it not? I think that tvee was basically saying much the same thing as SWTT, but I've become accustomed to tvee's use of language. I think I can usually get the gist of what he's saying, and glean much of his meaning from it.


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post #112  quote:

quote:
devildog said this in post #113 :
The film is spiritually lost, T. The movie was enjoyable, I guess, but don't think for a second that the makers had a clue. I just had to laugh at it, and enjoy it for what it is. I wonder why they don't make one about the real Constantine


Yes, devildog, in fact I am reading this book you gave me and got to the part about Constantine and thought about what I had posted above....
Plus, I called the library and I am #294 on the wait list, so it's not a huge priority.

By the way, I just read about Isaiah 17 and 18 and its reference to America....
it's funny in one of my Bible versions, NIV, it lists Isaiah 17 as Yahweh talking about Damascus and Isaiah 18 as talking about Cush....
when in fact it is talking about the land to the west across the sea from Cush (Africa)...and what nation praytell would that be???

I will be sharing this bit of Truth with some of my fellow Israeli-Yahudi loving friends....in fact the one man had been telling me all along that oil & guns were the reasons for the Iraqi war....

He may already know about the Isaiah 17 & 18 references, but I know they will enjoy reading this Truth.


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post #113  quote:

No, Sierradaddy,
Tvee and I come from two completely different perspectives...unless tvee has changed in 8 months....


Concerning angels:

For it is written: ? He shall give His angels charge over you, To keep you,? -- Luke 4:10

Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life? -- 1 Corinthians 6:3

Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, -- Colossians 2:18

For indeed He does not give aid to angels, but He does give aid to the seed of Abraham. -- Hebrews 2:16

And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; -- Jude 1:6

Yahshua did not die on the cross for the angels, he died for the redemption of mankind.
The angels have already shown or denied allegiance to God...even before the 7 days of creation.

Yahweh created mankind to have a relationship....obviously the angels had not served this purpose, or He would not needed to have created man in His own image for relationship.....never in the Word does it state that angels were created in the image of Him, nor does it state that He "loves" them.
In fact:
For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. -- Romans 8:38-39

We will judge the angels....what more needs to be said about that?


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post #114  quote:

I think that just because we (the righteous) will judge angels, that doesn't mean that if an angel turned away from sin, or if God knew that even one angel WOULD repent, He would choose not to make a way for that angel to be redeemed just like He did for mankind. Also, it would be rather strange for God not to love his angels. They live in constant connection with him, they exist on the spiritual plane in his very presence. If that isn't priviledge, I don't know what is, and if it IS priviledge, then one could expect that it would be out of love, right?

And the bible wasn't written to reveal all things, but it was inspired to reveal that which is necessary for mankind to perservere and find redemption from sin and eternal death. Our overall knowledge of angels is rather limited in comparison with all that the bible reveals about god's character and Jesus, wouldn't you agree?

More to come, gotta get back to work...


Old Post 08-04-2005 10:49 PM
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post #115  quote:

For Yahweh so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

I really and truly do not have any more desire to talk about angels.


Old Post 08-04-2005 11:13 PM
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post #116  quote:

Ok, then let's get off the limited subject of angels and talk about what God's love encompasses.

Do you believe it's limited to mankind? What about all the rest of God's creation? Or is it limited to those who practice the Hebrew faith? Do you think that if it were another of God's 'sheep that are not of this fold' that had fallen, say another race on another planet, that God wouldn't have executed a plan of redemption for them?

I ask these questions because I've grown to accept the opinion that God loves EVERYTHING that He creates, because he's put his hands into creating them. But I also ask about the Jewish religion because we follow the bible, which speaks of God as a hebrew god; the god of Abraham and Isaac. You yourself, SWTT, tend to use the Hebrew names, as if they are the original and authentic names.

I also ask these questions, because we tend to think of ourselves as somehow 'special' to God, above all others He's created, which in a way almost gives us the right to be redeemed. It's like the people of the rennaissance, who were totally astonished by anyone who claimed that the earth wasn't the centre of the universe, because mankind HAD to be important enough to God for Him to place us at the centre of His creation. We don't often tend to look at our 'reward' as a gift from God for us having to endure a sinful world and a less-than-perfect situation due to Satan and sin that had invaded our world. It's like a parent who has, say, 3 kids. One kid gets into an accident and breaks her arm, and the parents have to divert attention from the other kids a bit and focus on the kid with the busted arm. The kid feels special a bit, because of the attention she's getting, but in reality, the parents were forced into that, because they had to nurse their child back to health. Same thing with our situation and what god is doing, IMO.

We're obviously different than the angels, but not in the regard that God loves us more than them. I don't believe that, and there's no evidence to support anything more than an INTERPRETATION to that effect. Nothing definitive...

I've never thought that God's love was limited to us, or that it was greater for us than for any of his other creations. Other creations may have more limited abilities and as such, how god DEALS with them might be different, but I never considered the possiblity that He might not love them as much, or try as hard for them if they were to sin and then repent and seek forgiveness...


Old Post 08-04-2005 11:38 PM
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post #117  quote:

quote:
Sierradaddy said this in post #119 :
Ok, then let's get off the limited subject of angels and talk about what God's love encompasses.

Do you believe it's limited to mankind? What about all the rest of God's creation?

Yes, because the only creation that Yahweh made in His image was man. All other forms of life serve us or declare His glory. (like the stars and the beautiful songbirds)

Or is it limited to those who practice the Hebrew faith?

Hebrew faith?

Do you think that if it were another of God's 'sheep that are not of this fold' that had fallen, say another race on another planet, that God wouldn't have executed a plan of redemption for them?

It's not our place to give hypothetical responses to conjectured possibilities....in other words:
If it ain't on the page, it ain't on the stage. -- an old theatre saying


I ask these questions because I've grown to accept the opinion that God loves EVERYTHING that He creates, because he's put his hands into creating them.

So, do you think Yahweh is intent on having a relationship with Fido???

But I also ask about the Jewish religion because we follow the bible, which speaks of God as a hebrew god; the god of Abraham and Isaac. You yourself, SWTT, tend to use the Hebrew names, as if they are the original and authentic names.

When I am in a love relationship with someone, I believe it important to be on a first-name basis with that person, don't you? And since the name YHWH is used 6,828 times in the OT....it's pretty safe to know that YHWH IS his first name.

I also ask these questions, because we tend to think of ourselves as somehow 'special' to God, above all others He's created, which in a way almost gives us the right to be redeemed. It's like the people of the rennaissance, who were totally astonished by anyone who claimed that the earth wasn't the centre of the universe, because mankind HAD to be important enough to God for Him to place us at the centre of His creation. We don't often tend to look at our 'reward' as a gift from God for us having to endure a sinful world and a less-than-perfect situation due to Satan and sin that had invaded our world. It's like a parent who has, say, 3 kids. One kid gets into an accident and breaks her arm, and the parents have to divert attention from the other kids a bit and focus on the kid with the busted arm. The kid feels special a bit, because of the attention she's getting, but in reality, the parents were forced into that, because they had to nurse their child back to health. Same thing with our situation and what god is doing, IMO.

I have no idea how you came to these conclusions.

We're obviously different than the angels, but not in the regard that God loves us more than them. I don't believe that, and there's no evidence to support anything more than an INTERPRETATION to that effect. Nothing definitive...

Again, if it ain't on the page, it ain't on the stage.

I will add that the Bible never states that He loves the angels, yet it states that He loves the humans numerous times. Since Yahweh is Love....it's really not a stretch to say that He loves everything he has created....but does He enter into communal love relationship with every created thing? No, he does not.


I've never thought that God's love was limited to us, or that it was greater for us than for any of his other creations. Other creations may have more limited abilities and as such, how god DEALS with them might be different, but I never considered the possiblity that He might not love them as much, or try as hard for them if they were to sin and then repent and seek forgiveness...

Third times a doozie...
If it ain't on the page, it ain't on the stage.

I will also add that I, in my heart of hearts, do NOT think Yahweh enters into relationship or fellowship with dogs, camels, horses, sheep, or any other such creation other than human.




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Old Post 08-05-2005 12:03 AM
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post #118  quote:

quote:
sowhatsthetruth said this in post #120 :
Ok, then let's get off the limited subject of angels and talk about what God's love encompasses.

Do you believe it's limited to mankind? What about all the rest of God's creation?

Yes, because the only creation that Yahweh made in His image was man. All other forms of life serve us or declare His glory. (like the stars and the beautiful songbirds)

Correction: the only creation the Bible clearly says that God made in His image was man. All other forms of life ON EARTH serve us or declare His glory. Angels are a form of life that do not exist on earth, yet they are found here because they serve God, and He has commanded them to protect us. They won't keep that up when we're in heaven, so they don't serve us.

Or is it limited to those who practice the Hebrew faith?

Hebrew faith?

You know what I meant. Jewish.

Do you think that if it were another of God's 'sheep that are not of this fold' that had fallen, say another race on another planet, that God wouldn't have executed a plan of redemption for them?

It's not our place to give hypothetical responses to conjectured possibilities....in other words:
If it ain't on the page, it ain't on the stage. -- an old theatre saying


Maybe not, but it is a question that goes to the heart of God's character, and that character IS readily and amply displayed for us in the Bible. Based on the insight that we have been given regarding God's character, do we think that we're more special than the angels, even though the bible says that we were made 'a little lower than the angels'? I think that's something important to consider, whether we're talking about angels or our own place as humankind in God's heart. Not to mention, if we really feel like we have a true personal relationship with God, and we know Him based on His word and the revelations of Him that we get in our daily walk with Him, shouldn't we feel confident in answering questions like these, not boasting, but having a solid understanding of Him?

I ask these questions because I've grown to accept the opinion that God loves EVERYTHING that He creates, because he's put his hands into creating them.

So, do you think Yahweh is intent on having a relationship with Fido???

I wasn't referring to animals, or even to earth. I'm referring to the total creation, and all intelligent beings that come under that umbrella. Whether God considers dogs among that crowd isn't my question. It was whether we think that we have a more special relationship than others.

But I also ask about the Jewish religion because we follow the bible, which speaks of God as a hebrew god; the god of Abraham and Isaac. You yourself, SWTT, tend to use the Hebrew names, as if they are the original and authentic names.

When I am in a love relationship with someone, I believe it important to be on a first-name basis with that person, don't you? And since the name YHWH is used 6,828 times in the OT....it's pretty safe to know that YHWH IS his first name.

I guess my question is going more to the semantics of language regarding names than anything else. I'll drop it.

I also ask these questions, because we tend to think of ourselves as somehow 'special' to God, above all others He's created, which in a way almost gives us the right to be redeemed. It's like the people of the rennaissance, who were totally astonished by anyone who claimed that the earth wasn't the centre of the universe, because mankind HAD to be important enough to God for Him to place us at the centre of His creation. We don't often tend to look at our 'reward' as a gift from God for us having to endure a sinful world and a less-than-perfect situation due to Satan and sin that had invaded our world. It's like a parent who has, say, 3 kids. One kid gets into an accident and breaks her arm, and the parents have to divert attention from the other kids a bit and focus on the kid with the busted arm. The kid feels special a bit, because of the attention she's getting, but in reality, the parents were forced into that, because they had to nurse their child back to health. Same thing with our situation and what god is doing, IMO.

I have no idea how you came to these conclusions.

The bible, for one. Reading it, talking about it, looking at it as a whole, seeing the stories about even things like the lost sheep and the 99 in the fold, etc... We're a sick child that God is pampering like any loving parent would, but we're getting the wrong idea if we think that the pampering means he loves us more than any of his other 'kids' (I'm referring to intelligent beings here... Other sheep not of this fold...). That's how I see it, and to me, that's a better way of looking at it. It keeps me from being too proud, which would be an issue for me if I saw it another way...

We're obviously different than the angels, but not in the regard that God loves us more than them. I don't believe that, and there's no evidence to support anything more than an INTERPRETATION to that effect. Nothing definitive...

Again, if it ain't on the page, it ain't on the stage.


I will add that the Bible never states that He loves the angels, yet it states that He loves the humans numerous times.

And again, the angels serve man and they serve Him...the entire universe exists for humans....not angels.


Right, if it ain't on the page, it ain't on the stage. The bible hasn't specifically stated that Angels aren't loved. It just hasn't explicitly stated that they ARE loved. But the book isn't about God's love for angels, it's about his love for us, and it's about our redemption plan and his sacrifice, etc.


I've never thought that God's love was limited to us, or that it was greater for us than for any of his other creations. Other creations may have more limited abilities and as such, how god DEALS with them might be different, but I never considered the possiblity that He might not love them as much, or try as hard for them if they were to sin and then repent and seek forgiveness...

Third times a doozie...
If it ain't on the page, it ain't on the stage.

I will also add that I, in my heart of hearts, do NOT think Yahweh enters into relationship or fellowship with dogs, camels, horses, sheep, or any other such creation other than human.


I'll agree with you about who is able to have a relationship with God, on earth. But I'm also not naive enough to believe that we are his only created intelligent beings, and as a result, I don't think that the universe was only created for us. I don't think that we are the only ones 'tuned in' to the Great Controversy between God and Satan, and therefore I don't get the idea that we are somehow more 'special' to God than the other races on other planets, or other universes, whatever... It might only vaguely be in the bible (other sheep not of this fold), but I interpret it to be alluding to that, and to me, it makes a lot of sense.



Old Post 08-05-2005 12:47 AM
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post #119  quote:

I only have time for this one:

You said:
Correction: the only creation the Bible clearly says that God made in His image was man. All other forms of life ON EARTH serve us or declare His glory. Angels are a form of life that do not exist on earth, yet they are found here because they serve God, and He has commanded them to protect us. They won't keep that up when we're in heaven, so they don't serve us.
________________________________

And you don't think that is significant? (the only creation the Bible clearly says that God made in His image was man)

And are the moon and the stars and the heavens ON THE EARTH? No. And they were part of the creation. And were they made in His image? No.

Again, why did Yahweh feel the need to create? Obviously angels had been there before the creation....why did He feel the need to create a being in His own image? He wanted someone to commune with. It's simple.


Old Post 08-05-2005 01:11 AM
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post #120  quote:

That's strange to me. I can't see that as being the reason why He created us. The angels are a little higher than us in ability and intelligence, so He would find more of a communion with them, because they could have a better understanding of Him. Also, they are always in his presence. Besides, He doesn't REQUIRE communion, He would only DESIRE it. But I can't see Him desiring it so much that He'd create us JUST so that we could commune with Him. To me, it's not quite that simple.

To me, the angels have everything that we have, except for dominion over other created beings and the ability to reproduce, or at least that's what I assume. The book of Enoch says otherwise (fallen angels taking human form and having children, creating the Nephilim...), and it was the basis for everything that Moses knew about God, other than Moses' own relationship with Him. But I digress. The angels are more intelligent and learned than we are, their home is on the spiritual plane as they are spiritual beings, they have free will as proven by Satan and the 1/3 who sided with him, and in a sense, those who left God obviously were partially annoyed that they DIDN'T get to have dominion over anything, because now they work to have dominion over us.

I kinda digressed again... Ah, that's what happens when I try to offer up a reasonably coherent post while taking calls at work...

Anyways, I think I've explained a bit about why I think that God didn't create us for HIS benefit (to commune with), and why I think that all intelligent creatures He made, especially those who have many attributes that outweigh our own, should and would receive the same love from God as we do. Not because of their attributes, really, but more because of God's attributes. If His love is so strong for us, what makes us think that He's limited to only loving US like that? Obviously the bible refers only to his love for us, because the book was MEANT for us. It wasn't meant for the angels, and expressing love for the angels might cause to be jealous, cuz that's how we are.


Old Post 08-05-2005 02:03 AM
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