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devildog
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post #31  quote:

Speaking of changing the subject. You are so transparent. I can't wait to look at this web site.

Old Post 06-08-2004 08:31 PM
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post #32  quote:

devildog: Now, I'm not terribly knowledgable on the history of Arabic or Islam

however I do know a bit about linguistics:
it is possible that there is more than one word for God, just like God and god have two different meanings in English. Word for word translations don't necessarily mean anything.

For example: in Spanish there are two words for "to be" estar and ser. It is very hard for an English-speaker to learn when to use "estar" and when to use "ser." But they are two different words, with two different meanings, and they both translate into English as "is."


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devildog
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post #33  quote:

All throughtout the writtings Ilah is used Dekka. Did you see the fragments of the oldest surviving Quran with these words upon it? I supplied it. I also supplied "lessons in Arabic" from a web page. Moreover, the Qur?an itself uses ?Ilah? when Allah claims to be ?the God of Abraham?

Old Post 06-08-2004 08:38 PM
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raven200
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post #34  quote:

Devildog get a life --- how many times do I have to tell you in the Quran hundreds if not thousands of words are used to describe God, but it is the same god. We muslims only believe in one God.

LoL and you make me laugh ---- yeh you were giving arabic lessons. Sure you were.


Old Post 06-08-2004 08:40 PM
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post #35  quote:

I looked at the page, but it made me dizzy. I did put it in my Favorites so I could look at it later. Just alerting you to a fact about languages, how things often get lost in translation, just in case you didn't know

Old Post 06-08-2004 08:42 PM
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devildog
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post #36  quote:

You can try to explain it away all you want Raven, Thousands of words for God, huh? How convenient. I didn't give Arabic lessons you moron, I directed people to a web page. My opinion means nothing here. Just like yours doesn't. Do you have any evidence? Ohh of coarse not. The only reason you are so confused is because Mo was confused. He had no idea what god to worship nor did he have a name at first. Then it was lord, then Ar Rahman. Then he worshiped many gods. Need proof?

Old Post 06-08-2004 08:49 PM
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TWBR
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post #37  quote:

Raven, lets sit back, laugh at him, and start to feel sorry for him.

Old Post 06-08-2004 09:04 PM
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devildog
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post #38  quote:

You two are pathetic at best. Try imploying some facts

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TWBR
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post #39  quote:

The Quran saying in verse 2:163 :
"And your Allah is One Allah. There is no God but He, Most Gracious, Most Merciful."

Proves two of your stupid claims that Islam has more than one God, and that Allah is not the arabic word for God.

Calling me and Raven Pathetic is like calling Ariel Sharon a Muslim.


Old Post 06-09-2004 02:42 AM
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devildog
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post #40  quote:

quote:
TWBR said this in post #39 :
The Quran saying in verse 2:163 :
"And your Allah is One Allah. There is no God but He, Most Gracious, Most Merciful."

Proves two of your stupid claims that Islam has more than one God, and that Allah is not the arabic word for God.

Calling me and Raven Pathetic is like calling Ariel Sharon a Muslim.


Here are several translations to this verse. Notice how many times "God" is represented.
002:163
Pickthall- Your God is One God ; there is no God save Him, the Beneficent, the Merciful.
Yusuf Ali- And your God is One God : There is no god but He, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
Shakir- And your God is one God ! there is no god but He; He is the Beneficent, the Merciful.
Sher Ali- And your God is One God ; there is no God but HE, the Gracious, the Merciful.
Khalifa- Your god is one god ; there is no god but He, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
Palmer- Your God is one God ; there is no God but He, the merciful, the compassionate.
Sale- Your God is one God , there is no God but he, the most merciful.
Rodwell- Your God is one God : there is no God but He, the Compassionate, the Merciful.

Now here is the translated Arabic version : Wa-ilahu kum ilah un wahidun la ilaha illa huwa alrrahmanu alrraheemu

Now how many times did you see the word Allah?? Still think Allah is Arabic for "God"?

Now that we know (again) that it is just a name, and that "Allah"was just a Pagan Moon god and was worshipped way before Mo came along, we can now start talkin about Hubal , Ar Rahman, Al-Lat( female for Allah), Manat, and Al-Uzza. All Pagan idols worshipped by Mo........Oopps


Old Post 06-09-2004 04:06 AM
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post #41  quote:

I would like to return to the five pillars if I may. Since I do not think we will reach any agreement on the 'allah = god' debate.

So, devildogg posts that Qusayy made the five pillars with some quotes that support his claim. Raven, responded with a similar message but different quotes. Raven, the things that you posted seemed to show to me, that in fact Qusayy did have AT LEAST SOME parts of the five pillars in practise before Mohammeds time, would you agree?

Logan.

Let us drop the 'allah' word debate, I think that this if won either way will not lead us to any great conclusions, I see both sides point and have noticed this debate in many threads ... lets agree to disagree on this one.


Old Post 06-09-2004 07:04 AM
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post #42  quote:

What you have to understand is that Before the prophet, the people that worshipped in or around the Ka'ba worshipped 360 idols which had been placed within it.

Now Qusayy was also a beleiver of idol's.

So firstly he did not belive in one God.

Now in relation to pilgrims coming to the ka'ba they had been coming thier before the time of the prophet as the ka'ba had been a place of worship from much earlier. If you look at the link I gave you before, which I give again you can see the historical significance of the ka'ba:

http://www.nuradeen.com/Reflections...ageOfIslam2.htm

Many of the traditions that were followed their were from the time of the Prophet Abraham.
Now you would agree with me that Abraham was a man of God, if he had showed people how to pray to the one true god, then his method must be correct.

Now the thing about the arabs was, they prayed to the idols but they also belived that thier was Great god who was the most powerful of all. This was due to the fact that many hundreds of years before they all beleived in one God but as time went on they started worshipping other Idols as well.

This was like when the Jews started praying to a cow in the time of the Moses, the people had gone astray from the real faith.

This is what the prophet came to revive. That is why in the Quran, all the prophets are mentioned --- Islam is a complete religion that understands that all the teachings that were brought before were also correct, but as time went by people had changed the actual teachings.

Now Qusayy was following tradition passed down from before him.

The five pillars of Islam were set by the prophet because they were the five fundemental things a muslim was expected to do. Some of the pillars of Islam were layed down by prophets before the Holy prophet, because even before him God had told prophets similar importances in relation to faith and worship of God.

some of these Pillars were not unique to the Holy Prophet, they have been sent to other prophets before him, e.g worship one God only.
But what God did this time round was to enforce the pillars so that they could not be forgotten, they are emphasised in our religion because God told the prophet to do so, that we may never forget the importance of what we really are here for on this earth.

Some of the pillars that devildog gives Qusayy gratitude for, are not the same thing at all.
Qusayy was but a mere man following tradition, in relation to the tax he levied, that is something totally different from what muslims are expected to give in the name of God. His tax was based on pilgrims coming to Makkah and giving him money just on that basis.

Now the Zakat that muslims are expected to give in the name of God has set reasoning behind it and this is what it is:

ZAKAT: (Alms) The Zakat is a form of giving to those who are less fortunate. It is obligatory upon all Muslims to give 2.5 % of wealth and assets each year (in excess of what is required) to the poor. This is done before the beginning of the month of Muharram, the first of new year. Giving the Zakat is considered an act of worship because it is a form of offering thanks to God for the means of material well-being one has acquired.

Qusayy on the other hand was taking money for his own business purposes.

So i'm sure Logan you will be able to understand this better now about the 5 pillars of Islam.

I'm adding the five pillars of Islam again so you can see that Qusayy could have never have created them:

1. To bear witness that there is none worthy of worship save Allah and that Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) is the Messenger of Allah.

2. To observe Prayer (Salat).

3. To Pay Zakat (Alms giving)

4. To perform the Pilgrimage to the House of Allah (Hajj).


5. To Observe fasting during Ramadhan."


Last edited by raven200 on 06-09-2004 at 01:27 PM |
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devildog
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post #43  quote:

Hmmm, not one piece of scripture. I refuse to continue to post proof when it seems all I have to do is present my opinion. Abraham in Mecca, huh? Good grief.

Tabari II:69 ?After Ishmael and Isaac were born, Allah commanded Abraham to build a House for Him in which He would be worshipped and His name mentioned.? This must be the House that Allah didn?t build in heaven, that Adam didn?t build, that Seth didn?t build, that Noah didn?t circumnavigate after Allah didn?t raise it above the flood. ?Abraham did not know exactly where he was expected to build it, since Allah had not made this clear [nor anything else], and he felt uneasy in the matter. Some scholars say that Allah sent the Sakinah to him [a rip-off of the Hebrew Shekhinah?the presence of Yahweh] to show him where to build the House. The Sakinah went with Abraham, who was also accompanied by his wife Hagar [Hagar was never Abraham?s wife and Muslims know it.] and his son Ishmael, who was a small boy.?
The Tradition continues: ?A man came to Ali bin Talib [Muhammad?s adopted son, his son-in-law, future Caliph, and said, ?Will you tell me about the House?? He replied, ?It was the first built with the blessing of the standing-place of Abraham, and whoever enters it will be safe. If you wish, I will tell you how it was built. Allah said to Abraham, ?Build Me a House on earth!? Abraham felt uneasy, so He sent the Sakinah. The Sakinah is a gale-force wind with two heads, and one head followed the other until they reached Mecca and coiled up at the site of the House, the way a snake coils.??
There are some who suggest that Allah is Satan, the snake who tempted Adam. Using this metaphor to describe Allah?s presence supports that theory. But whether or not that is true, this passage is troubling. Mecca is nearly a thousand miles from Beersheba. These places are separated by rugged mountains and virtually impassible desert. There is no plausible way a hundred-year-old man, a slave girl, and a small child could have endured such a journey. And this may be why neither Muhammad nor Allah ever bothered to tell us how they accomplished the improbable voyage.
Tabari II:70 ?Abraham was commanded to build where the Sakinah had rested. When he had finished it except for one stone, [guess which one] the boy went away to build something else. But Abraham said, ?No, I still need one more stone, as I still order you.? So the boy went looking, and when he found one he brought it to Abraham. But Abraham had already set the Black Stone in place. He said, ?Father, who brought you this Stone?? Abraham answered, ?It was Gabriel who brought it to me from heaven.? Then the two of them finished it.? And I could have sworn that Muhammad told us that the stone was brought to earth by Adam. (Tabari I:298) Was he lying then, or now?

Version two follows. It is also from Ali: ?When he built it he went forth and left Hagar and Ishmael behind. Ishmael became very thirsty. Hagar climbed Safa to look for water but saw nothing. Then she went to Marwah, but the same thing happened. Then she returned to Safa and looked around, but could not find Ishmael. After looking seven times without success she said, ?Ishmael, you have died where I cannot see you.?? You may be wondering why she would look for water now and yet not have bothered during the three-month desert crossing. You may be wondering why she would look on the top of barren mountains rather than in a valley oasis. You may be wondering why she repeated the process seven times, endangering the life of her child. The answer is Islam. Muhammad needed to make the hajj rites religious. Even today Muslims are required to run between these mountains seven times. This explains why they do it.
However, there were problems. Abraham was supposed to be the father of Islam. In this Hadith, he didn?t perform any of the rites. He merely re-re-re-rebuilt the House and bailed. And the one who performed the Islamic ritual, Hagar, left Islam?s most important child alone in the desert (as did Muhammad?s mother, not so coincidentally).
The sacred Meccan well of Zamzam needed Biblical credibility too, so...
?The boy scraped the ground with his finger and the spring of Zamzam welled up. Hagar began to dam up the water, but Gabriel said, ?Leave it.??
?In the versions that follow, we?re told, ?Abraham and Ishmael set out for Mecca. They took pickaxes without knowing where the house was. So Allah sent a wind, which had two wings and a head of a snake. It swept the area around the Ka?aba clear for them to build the foundations of the original House.? Not on the foundations, nor to see the foundations, but to build the foundations of the original House. This was when Allah said, ?When We prepared for Abraham the place of the House.?? [Qur?an 22:26]
Since three contradictory versions were not enough: Tabari II:71 ?Allah commanded Abraham to build the House and to call on humanity to perform the pilgrimage. He left Syria with his son Ishmael and his mother Hagar. Allah sent the Sakinah which had the power of speech. Abraham followed it to Mecca. When it came to the place of the House, it spun round and round and said to Abraham, ?Build on me! Build on me!? [Allah?s House was built upon a snake.] Abraham laid the foundations and raised the House, working with Ishmael until they came to the cornerstone. Abraham said, ?O my little son, find me a stone which I can put here as a sign to the people.? He brought him a stone, but Abraham did not like it. When Ishmael came back the cornerstone had already been brought and put in place.? After failing math, science, and history, Islam is failing architecture. The cornerstone is the first rock laid, not the last. And cornerstones are big and rectangular. The Allah Stone is small and oval. But again, it wasn?t by accident. The Bible refers prophetically to Christ as ?the cornerstone? and you-know-who was desperate to be just like him.
How was Abraham supposed to call humanity to this place? The valley was uninhabited. It was in the middle of a foreboding desert. The first settlement wouldn?t be established for 2,500 years. Furthermore, the Islamic Abraham was piling un-hewn, un-mortared rocks in a desert ravine. The first heavy rain would have done it in.
Perhaps the fifth version of Abraham in Mecca will be more rational.
Tabari II:72 ?Sarah said, ?She will not live in the same town with me.? So Allah told Abraham to go to Mecca, where there was no House at the time. He took Hagar and her son and put them there.? Allah pointed out to Abraham the place to build the House [which would make Allah the snake]. ?. When they reached Mecca, there was nothing there but acacia trees.? If that is true, Muhammad?s earlier accounts must have been false. ?The House at the time was but a hill of red clay?. When he was done, Abraham headed back to Syria?. Gabriel dug out Zamzam with his heel for Ishmael.? All I can assume is that neither Muhammad nor Allah had a clue as to how the rock-pile got there. These wildly divergent explanations are preceded and followed by dozens more. It is as if Muslims think truth can be found in a pile of lies, if only the pile is big enough.
The Traditions move on to recount a variety of patriarchal Meccan visits. Never mind that Mecca didn?t exist. Muhammad wants us to believe in fairytales, in talking stones and trees:
Tabari II:78 ?And everything that heard him?stones, trees, hills, and dust said, ?Here I am, Allah, here I am.?? Continuing to give meaningless ritual religious meaning: Tabari II:81 ?Abraham took Ishmael with him on the day of Tarwiyah [the 8th day of the hajj] and stayed at Mina with the Muslims who were there. He prayed with them the prayers of midday, afternoon, sunset and late evening. He spent the night and prayed the dawn prayer with them. In the morning he went out to Arafat, and he spoke to them there until sunset drew near.? This Hadith goes on to detail all of the remaining hajj rituals, all of which are still performed by Muslims as if they were acting out Abraham?s example. ?He showed them the sacrifice-ground of Mina, then performed the sacrifice and shaved his head. From Mina he went into the crowd to show them how to perform the march around the Ka?aba. Then he took them back to Mina to show them how to throw the stones, until he had completed the pilgrimage and proclaimed it to mankind.?
Because the previous account was unbelievable for a myriad of reasons, not the least of which was that there were no Muslims in Mecca, Muhammad felt compelled to give it an angelic twist.
Tabari II:82 ?The Prophet said, ?Gabriel came to Abraham on the day of Tarwiyah and went with him to Mina, Arafat, back to Mina, threw stones, performed the sacrifice, shaved his head, and finally hurried to the House. Then Allah ordered Muhammad to ?follow the religion of Abraham.?? [16:123] That must mean that the religion of Abraham, Islam, can be defined as running between two desolate mountains, tossing stones at stones, shaving one?s head, and walking around a rock pile. And so it would be. Even today, Islam is known for its rites and rituals rather than for its righteousness or reason. Every turn you take, it is laden with lies. If one knows the context, the compounding factor is enormous.


Old Post 06-09-2004 05:51 PM
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raven200
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post #44  quote:

Your no longer in a debate with me Devildog ---- I'm only answering Logans as he knows how to make his point in a humanly manner....

I do not wish to discuss anything with you as you refuse to tell me anything about what faith you believe in and what exactly is your agenda.

You can shout and scream as much as you like, but no muslim brother will further respond to you ---- as of today.

TWBR do not respond to this foul character anylonger.
He has gone beyond his boundaries of lies. Do not bother to reply to any of his rubbish comments, the foul mouth of his will perish......


Old Post 06-09-2004 06:59 PM
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devildog
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post #45  quote:

quote:
raven200 said this in post #44 :
Your no longer in a debate with me Devildog ---- I'm only answering Logans as he knows how to make his point in a humanly manner....

I do not wish to discuss anything with you as you refuse to tell me anything about what faith you believe in and what exactly is your agenda.

You can shout and scream as much as you like, but no muslim brother will further respond to you ---- as of today.

TWBR do not respond to this foul character anylonger.
He has gone beyond his boundaries of lies. Do not bother to reply to any of his rubbish comments, the foul mouth of his will perish......



Oh the indignity of it all
How very typical of you. Run, Forest, run. The truth might hurt you. When you Muslims have no answer, it is always the same game. I am extremely familiar with it and soon everyone reading this will be also. If you ever need to know the truth about your religion, you know where I am. If you only had the courage. How very sad. See ya.

PS I told you my faith. I am not a "religious" person. As if this has any bearing on the subject. If these were my words, than you may be able to claim that I have an agenda, but as you blindly know, I am using the Oldest, most accurate and trusted sources of Islam known to man. Chew on it. Don't respond back and this can be finished.


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post #46  quote:

I put it to all the good people out thier, religion is the light to find your way to the truth, would you not agree with me.

Can all the God fearing people who believe in God respond to this!!!


Old Post 06-09-2004 08:01 PM
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post #47  quote:

Okay, I am going to try and break down what was siad in the last few posts:

Raven Said: "What you have to understand is that Before the prophet, the people that worshipped in or around the Ka'ba worshipped 360 idols which had been placed within it. Now Qusayy was also a beleiver of idol's. So firstly he did not belive in one God."

-But was the idol he whorshipped 'allah' the previous moon rock God that devil speaks of?

Raven said: "Now in relation to pilgrims coming to the ka'ba they had been coming thier before the time of the prophet as the ka'ba had been a place of worship from much earlier."

-So, then yes, Qussay did go to mecca on a yearly basis, which is one of the five pillars, known to Muslims as Hajj. Correct?

I agree that Abraham was a man of God.

Raven said: "The five pillars of Islam were set by the prophet because they were the five fundemental things a muslim was expected to do. Some of the pillars of Islam were layed down by prophets before the Holy prophet, because even before him God had told prophets similar importances in relation to faith and worship of God."

-I do not understand then why you cannot agree that Qusaay did practise some of the pillars before Mohammed since earlier practises were, in part, correct.


I do understand the pillars, just am trying to clarify thier origins. Which I think is both in the past, and also from Mohammed correct? I do understand how zakat is different from earlier times.

Devildogg said "Tabari II:70 ?Abraham was commanded to build where the Sakinah had rested. When he had finished it except for one stone, [guess which one] the boy went away to build something else. But Abraham said, ?No, I still need one more stone, as I still order you.? So the boy went looking, and when he found one he brought it to Abraham. But Abraham had already set the Black Stone in place. He said, ?Father, who brought you this Stone?? Abraham answered, ?It was Gabriel who brought it to me from heaven.? Then the two of them finished it.? And I could have sworn that Muhammad told us that the stone was brought to earth by Adam. (Tabari I:298) Was he lying then, or now?"

-Raven, I have seen this posted before does Mohammed tell of two origins of the stone?

devildogg said "Abraham laid the foundations and raised the House, working with Ishmael until they came to the cornerstone."

-Raven is this a translation error or a different construction style that devil is unaware of? I am not a builder myslef so I am unsure if it is true that corner stones are laid first not last.

Devildogg said: "Tabari II:72 ?Sarah said, ?She will not live in the same town with me.? So Allah told Abraham to go to Mecca, where there was no House at the time. He took Hagar and her son and put them there.? Allah pointed out to Abraham the place to build the House [which would make Allah the snake]. ?. When they reached Mecca, there was nothing there but acacia trees.? If that is true, Muhammad?s earlier accounts must have been false. ?The House at the time was but a hill of red clay?. When he was done, Abraham headed back to Syria?. Gabriel dug out Zamzam with his heel for Ishmael.?

-Raven, is this a true contridiction?

Devil or raven: Why did Mohammed shave his head in the hajj ritual, I have never heard of this?

Please let us stay and talk.
Logan.


Old Post 06-10-2004 04:35 AM
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raven200
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post #48  quote:

Logan = BLUE

Okay, I am going to try and break down what was siad in the last few posts:

Raven Said: "What you have to understand is that Before the prophet, the people that worshipped in or around the Ka'ba worshipped 360 idols which had been placed within it. Now Qusayy was also a beleiver of idol's. So firstly he did not belive in one God."

-But was the idol he whorshipped 'allah' the previous moon rock God that devil speaks of?


Ok ---- the blackstone, that you also call a moonrock, I have explained about in detail in the thread "Jesus in India".
The stone was part of the building the actual ka'ba itself, it has never been worshipped or prayed to. The 360 Idols were placed within the ka'ba by the idol worshippors they were worshipped by the arabs at that time.


Raven said: "Now in relation to pilgrims coming to the ka'ba they had been coming thier before the time of the prophet as the ka'ba had been a place of worship from much earlier."

-So, then yes, Qussay did go to mecca on a yearly basis, which is one of the five pillars, known to Muslims as Hajj. Correct?


If you had read the link I gave to you in my previous post you would understand, Qusayy was part of the quraish tribe of that time, he lived in mecca and had set a tax for the pilgrims that came to mecca, and also he organised the fod and water for the pilgrims.
Now the pilgrims that came to mecca before the time of the holy prophet, were not performing hajj, they were praying to the idols within the ka'ba, which is very different from the hajj we perform now.


I agree that Abraham was a man of God.

Raven said: "The five pillars of Islam were set by the prophet because they were the five fundemental things a muslim was expected to do. Some of the pillars of Islam were layed down by prophets before the Holy prophet, because even before him God had told prophets similar importances in relation to faith and worship of God."

-I do not understand then why you cannot agree that Qusaay did practise some of the pillars before Mohammed since earlier practises were, in part, correct.


Earliar practices that I talk of in relartion to the five pillars that I talked of were e.g. believing in one God, all prophets brought the same message to belive in the one God. See what you have to understand the five pillars were Gods way of telling his believers to follow the right way of life.
Qusayy never worshipped the one god, his pilgrimage was never for the one god, his tax was not for the poor and needy,he did'nt pray to one god and never did he fast.


Therefore Qusaay does not fit the equation at all.


I do understand the pillars, just am trying to clarify thier origins. Which I think is both in the past, and also from Mohammed correct? I do understand how zakat is different from earlier times.

Devildogg said "Tabari II:70 ?Abraham was commanded to build where the Sakinah had rested. When he had finished it except for one stone, [guess which one] the boy went away to build something else. But Abraham said, ?No, I still need one more stone, as I still order you.? So the boy went looking, and when he found one he brought it to Abraham. But Abraham had already set the Black Stone in place. He said, ?Father, who brought you this Stone?? Abraham answered, ?It was Gabriel who brought it to me from heaven.? Then the two of them finished it.? And I could have sworn that Muhammad told us that the stone was brought to earth by Adam. (Tabari I:298) Was he lying then, or now?"

-Raven, I have seen this posted before does Mohammed tell of two origins of the stone?


The ka'ba was rebuilt by abraham, it is said to be the first place of worship built, this goes back to the time of Adam he originally built the first place of worship. The exact origin of the stone are not known, but we do know from old scriptures that adam had initially built the the first place of worship and that the stone was used in the building of the place of worship. From research it is now thought the black stone is part of a meteorite that fell many thousands of years ago. Again if you read the thread "jesus in india" in it I have explained about the black stone in detail. The prophet mohammed does tell that the ka'ba was rebuilt by abraham.

devildogg said "Abraham laid the foundations and raised the House, working with Ishmael until they came to the cornerstone."

-Raven is this a translation error or a different construction style that devil is unaware of? I am not a builder myslef so I am unsure if it is true that corner stones are laid first not last.

It is common sense that the stone could not have been put in last, now for the quote that is given by DD but i don't know where from, which is:

"Abraham laid the foundations and raised the House, working with Ishmael until they came to the cornerstone."

Also a building has four corners at the bottom and four corners at the top, it does therefore not mean that the stone was laid in the bottom corner of the building, if the rest of the building had been raised.


Devildogg said: "Tabari II:72 ?Sarah said, ?She will not live in the same town with me.? So Allah told Abraham to go to Mecca, where there was no House at the time. He took Hagar and her son and put them there.? Allah pointed out to Abraham the place to build the House [which would make Allah the snake]. ?. When they reached Mecca, there was nothing there but acacia trees.? If that is true, Muhammad?s earlier accounts must have been false. ?The House at the time was but a hill of red clay?. When he was done, Abraham headed back to Syria?. Gabriel dug out Zamzam with his heel for Ishmael.?

-Raven, is this a true contridiction?

Now a mound of red clay really is nothing, a tree is an object that stands out, a mound of red clay is part of the land, you have to construct something on a mound to make it something!! Therefore thier is no contridiction.!!!

Building the Ka?bah

Before building the Ka?bah, Abraham visited his son Ishmael in Makkah on several occasions. When God took the covenant with him, which included the circumcision of all males, Ishmael was also circumcised. The Qur`an mentions Abraham?s vision, in which he was ordered to sacrifice Ishmael:

O my son! surely I have seen in a dream that I should sacrifice you; consider then what you see. He said: O my father, do what you are commanded; if Allah please, you will find me of the patient ones. So when they both submitted and he threw him down upon his side, and We called out to him saying, O Abraham! you have indeed fulfilled the vision [...] and We ransomed him with a great victim. (37:102-7)

When Abraham received the revelation from God to raise the foundations of the Ka?bah, he went to Ishmael and found him sitting under a large tree in the area of Zamzam. Abraham said to Ishmael, ?Oh Ishmael, God the Exalted has given me a command.? ?Then you must obey your Lord,? Ishmael replied. Abraham said, ?My Lord has commanded me to build a House for Him.? Ishmael asked where, and Abraham pointed to the mound which was higher than its surroundings. They dug the ground that Adam had built and when they reached the original foundation a cloud came directly over the spot to indicate the dimensions of the structure. Abraham dug the earth according to the cloud's shape, in order to build on the original foundation. Once he had finished digging, the cloud disappeared. Then Ishmael brought large stones from the surrounding area, and Abraham built the walls of the structure. When he had reached to a certain point in the wall at the corner of the structure, he asked Ishmael to find a stone to place there, so that people would know where to begin circumambulation. Ishmael went to the mountains in search of a stone. Gabriel appeared before him with the Black Stone, which had been carried to and deposited upon the mountain of Abu Qubays by the flood of Noah. ?Where did you get this stone?? Ishmael asked him. ?From Him who has no need of your building,? Gabriel answered. The stone was put in its place, and when Abraham reached a point where he could reach no higher, Ishmael brought him a large rock, so he could stand upon it to lay the upper level of the walls. This rock is now located at a spot called ?the Station of Abraham? (maqam Ibrahim).



Devil or raven: Why did Mohammed shave his head in the hajj ritual, I have never heard of this?

Shaving of the hair represents a new start, it is like when you are born you have no hair, also the holy prophet said :

"May Allah's Mercy be upon those who shaved their heads." Bukhari and Muslim


Please let us stay and talk.
Logan.


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devildog
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post #49  quote:

Logan, I hope you can see through this nonsense. I don't have the energy to go through that last post right now, but rest assured that it is full of lies. How do you like their
"opinions", because I have yet to see a scripture, have you?????? You better believe that Mo worshiped many stones. To say that the black stone was never worshiped is lunacy and they know it. I hope you do the research when a Muslim tells you something and doesn't provide anything except their opinion. My opinion is this; Mo was an orphan, abandoned by his father and his mother didn't want him either. In fact, no one wanted him. His uncle( who inherited the Ka'aba inc.) didn't want him and this mad Mo mad. He was abused and molested as a youth. His troubled past is mirrored by his "god". Now, I will tell you right now that most of that is absolutely true and can be proven. The molested thing is what you would realize if you knew the whole story. There are many things that point in that direction, but it doesnt't EXACTLY say it. See the difference? I will tell you when it is my opinion. I have many more, but what good are they? You wanna know about something, ask the ones who knew Mo best.
Tabari VII:18 ?They made their way through the Hijaz until Sa?d and Utbah lost a camel which they were taking turns riding. They stayed behind to look for it. The rest went on until they reached Nakhlah. A Meccan caravan went past them carrying raisins, leather, and other merchandise, which the Quraysh traded. When they saw the Muslims they were afraid of them. Then Ukkashah [one of the Muslims] came into view; they saw that he had shaved his head, and they felt safer. The Quraysh said, ?They are on their way to the umrah (lesser pilgrimage); there is nothing to fear.?? The pagan umrah had become part of Islam. However, shaving one?s head was used to venerate Al-Lat, not Allah . So the Quraysh were as confused as I am. Why would a Muslim militant venerate a pagan idol while perusing plunder in Allah?s name? Al-Lat is one of Allah daughters BTW. And yes he worshiped them also. Need proof?


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post #50  quote:

Hell is where the devil will be with the people who beleived him ------ the devil is here and he wishes to turn you away from God.

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post #51  quote:

Welcome to Islam

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post #52  quote:

He calls himself the devil ---- he propgates the way of the devil.
He installs hatred within him, into others.

But he will not succeed, his lies will have no impact.


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post #53  quote:

are we done here?

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post #54  quote:

Devildogg, serious question here.
I think I have seen you post earlier accounts that Mohammed may actually be in the bible but not as a prophet but as a fortold devil-sent man. Are there any characteristics that are provided in the bible about this 'person,' like for exmaple how many things were pretold about Jesus before he came?

Logan.


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post #55  quote:

The following is the information in the bible, that is in relation to the Holy prophet Mohammed,
Please read and understand:

> I like to share with you why I think this way and if I am wrong,
> please correct me and explain to me why I am wrong.

> I start with some versus of Old testament: Blessing of an individual
> by God, in biblical language, means Prophet will be born from his
> descendants.

> God blessed Abraham and his descendants and made Covenants before
> any child was born (Gen. 12:2, Gen. 15:18). This means that none of
> the children may be excluded.

> God confirmed it to Hagar when she was by the spring of water on the
> way to Shur, when she was pregnant with Ishmael (Gen.16:7-12).

> God reiterated His covenant after the birth of Ishmael and before
> the birth of Isaac (Gen.: 17:7).

> The Holy Bible says that the Right of first born, , can not be
> affected by the social status of the mother.


> "I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren,
like unto thee,
and I will put my words in his mouth;
and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him." Deut.18:18.
continue reading your self
> (Deuteronomy 18:18-22). The Christians claim that this verse refers
> to Jesus.



> . . . furthermore, if this prophet is Jesus, then why do Christians
> say he is God, Unique son of God and so on if God says he is a
> prophet just like Moses???


> Mohammad always started his statements in God's name. See the Quran
> to witness this. But Jesus did not start his statements with the
> name of God (I have not seen this usually happen in bible).


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post #56  quote:

On the same topic, the following is a discussion between a Christian and a Muslim:

Prophet Like Moses
Having recited the verse in Afrikaans, I apologised for my uncertain pronunciation, The dominee assured me that I was doing fine. I enquired: "To whom does this prophecy refer?" Without the slightest hesitation he answered: "JESUS!" I asked: "Why Jesus?... his name is not mentioned here." The domin ee replied: "Since prophecies are word-pictures of something that is going to happen in the future, we find that the wordings of this verse adequately describe him. You see the most important words of this prophecy are 'SOOS JY IS' (like unto thee), - LIKE YOU - like Moses, and Jesus is like Moses. " I questioned: "In which way is Jesus like Moses?" The answer was: "In the first place Moses was a JEW and Jesus was also a JEW; secondly, Moses was a PROPHET and Jesus was also a PROPHET - therefore Jesus is like Moses and that is exactly what God had foretold Moses - "SOOS JY IS". "Can you think of any other similarities between Moses and Jesus?" I asked. The dominee said that he could not think of any. I replied: "If these are the only two criteria for discovering a candidate for this prophecy of Deuteronomy 18:18, then in that case the criteria could fit any one of the following Biblica l personages after Moses:- Solomon, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Joel, Malachi, John the Baptist etc., because they were also ALL Jews as well as Prophets. Why should we not apply this prophency to any one of these prophets, and why only to Jesus? Why should we make fish of one and fowl of anoth er?" The dominee had no reply. I continued: "You see, my conclusions are that Jesus is most unlike Moses, and if I am wrong I would like you to correct me."

Three Unlikes
So staying, I reasoned with him: "In the FIRST place Jesus is not like Moses, because, according to you - 'JESUS IS A GOD', but Moses is not God. Is this true?" He said: "Yes." I said: "Therefore, Jesus is not like Moses! SECONDLY, according to you - 'JESUS DIED FOR THE SINS OF THE WORLD', but Mose s did not have to die for the sins of the world. Is this true?" He again said: "Yes." I said: "Therefore Jesus is not like Moses! THIRDLY, according to you - 'JESUS WENT TO HELL FOR THREE DAYS', but Moses did not have to go there. Is this true?" He answered meekly: "Y-e-s." I concluded: "Therefore Jesus is not like Moses!" "But dominee," I continued: "these are not hard facts, solid facts, they are mere matters of belief over which the little ones can stumble and fall. Let us discuss something very simple, very easy that if your little ones are called in to hear the discussion, would have no difficulty in following it, shall we?" The dominee was quiet happy at the suggestion.

Father and Mother
(1) "Moses had a father and a mother. Muhummed also had a father and a mother. But Jesus had only a mother, and no human father. Is this true?" He said: "Yes." I said: "DAAROM IS JESUS NIE SOOS MOSES NIE, MAAR MUHUMMED IS SOOS MOSES!" Meaning: "Therefore Jesus is not like Moses, but Muhummed is lik e Moses!" (By now the reader will realise that I was using the Afrikaans language only for practice purposes. I shall discontinue its use in this narration).

Miraculous Birth
(2) "Moses and Muhummed were born in the normal, natural course, i.e. the physical association of man and woman; but Jesus was created by a special miracle. You will recall that we are told in the Gospel of St.Matthew 1:18".....BEFORE THEY CAME TOGETHER,(Joseph the Carpenter and Mary) SHE WAS FOUND WITH CHILD BY THE HOLY GHOST.' And St.Luke tells us that when the good news of the birth of a holy son was announded to her, Mary reasoned:'.......HOW SHALL THIS BE, SEEING I KNOW NOT A MAN? AND THE ANGEL ANSWERED AND SAID UNTO HER, THE HOLY GHOST SHALL COME UPON THEE, AND THE POWER OF THE HIGHEST SHALL OVERSHADOW THEE:......'(Luke 1:35). The Holy Qur'an confirms the miraculous birth of Jesus, in nobler and sublimer terms. In answer to her logical question:

" O MY LORD! HOW SHALL I HAVE A SON WHEN NO MAN HATH TOUCHED ME? "
The angel says in reply:
"EVEN SO:
ALLAH CREATETH WHAT HE WILLETH:
WHEN HE HATH DECREED A PLAN,
HE BUT SAITH TO IT "BE,"
AND IT IS " (9) (HOLY QUR'AN, 3:47).


It is not necessary for God to plant a seed in man or animal. He merely wills it and it comes into being. This is the Muslim conception of the of birth of Jesus.

(When I compared the Qur'an and the Biblical versions of the birth of Jesus to the head of the Bible Society in our largest City, and when I enquired: "Which version would you prefer to give your daughter, the QUR'ANIC version or the BIBLICAL version?" The man bowed his head and answered: "The Qur'anic.") In short, I said to the dominee: "Is it true that Jesus was born miraculously as against the natural birth of Moses and Muhummed?"He replied proudly:"Yes!" I said:"Therefore Jesus is not like Moses, but Muhummed is like Moses. And God says to Moses in the Book of Deuteronomy 18:18 "LIKE UNTO THEE" (Like You, Like Moses) and Muhummed is like Moses."
Marriage Ties
(3) "Moses and Muhummed married and begat children, but Jesus remained a bachelor all his life. Is this true?" The dominee said: "Yes." I said: "Therefore Jesus is not like Moses, but Muhummed is like Moses."

Jesus Rejected by his People
(3) "Moses and Muhummed were accepted as prophets by their people in their very lifetime. No doubt the Jews gave endless trouble to Moses and they murmured in the wilderness, but as a nation, they acknowledged that Moses was a Messenger of God sent to them. The Arabs too made Muhummed's life imposs ible. He suffered very badly at their hands. After 13 years of preaching in Mecca, he had to emigrate from the city of his birth. But before his demise, the Arab nation as a whole accepted him as the Messenger of Allah. But according to the Bible: 'He (Jesus) CAME UNTO HIS OWN, BUT HIS OWN RECEIVED HIM NOT.' (John 1:11). And even today, ofter two thousand years, his people- the Jews, as a whole, have rejeted him. Is this true?" The dominee said: "Yes." I said: "THEREFORE JESUS IS NOT LIKE MOSES, BUT MUHUMMED IS LIKE MOSES."

"Other-Wordly" Kingdom
(5) "Moses and Muhummed were prophets as well as kings. A prophet means a man who receives Divine Revelation for the Guidance of Man and this Guidance he conveys to God's creatures as received without any addition or deletion. A king is a person who has the power of life and death over his people. It is immaterial whether the person wears a crown or not, or whether he was ever addressed as king or monarch: if the man has the prerogative of inflicting capital punishment - HE IS A KING. Moses possessed such a power. Do you remember the Israelite who was found picking up firewood on Sabbath Day , and Moses had him stoned to death? (Numbers- 15:13). There are other crimes also mentioned in the Bible for which capital punishment was inflicted on the Jews at the behest of Moses. Muhummed too, had the power of life and death over his people. There are instances in the Bible of persons who wer e given gift of prophecy only, but they were not in a position to implement their directives. Some of these holy men of God who were helpless in the face of stubborn rejection of their mesage, were the prophets lot, Jonah, Daniel, Ezra, and John the Baptist. They could only deliver the message, but could not enforce the Law. The Holy Prophet Jesus (Peace b.u.h) also belonged to this category. The Christian Gospel clearly confirms this: when Jesus was dragged before the Roman Governor, Pontius Pilate, Charged for sedition, Jesus made a convincing point in his defence to refute the false charg e: JESUS ANSWERED, "MY KINGDOM IS NOT OF THIS WORLD': IF MY KINGDOM WERE OF THIS WORLD, THEN WOULD MY SERVANTS FIGHT, THAT I SHOULD NOT BE DELIVERED TO THE JEWS; BUT NOW IS MY KINGDOM NOT FROM HENCE"(John 18:36) This convinced Pilate (A Pagan) that though Jesus might not be in full possessio n of his mental faculty, he did not strike him as being a danger to his rule. Jesus claimed a spiritual Kingdom only; in other words he only claimed to be a Prophet. Is this true?" The dominee answered:"Yes." I said:"Therefore Jesus is not like Moses but Muhummed is like Moses."

No New Laws
(6) "Moses and Muhummed brought new laws and new regulations for their people. Moses not only gave the Ten Commandments to the Israelites, but a very comprehensive ceremonial law for the guidance of his people. Muhummed comes to a people steeped in barbarism and ignorance. They married their step-m others; they buried their daughters alive; drunkenness, adultery, idolatry, and gambling were the order of the day. Gibbon describe the Arabs before Islam in his "Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire", THE HUMAN BRUTE, ALMOST WITHOUT SENSE, IS POORLY DISTINGUISHED FROM THE REST OF THE ANIMAL CREATI ON.' There was hardly anything to distinguish between the "man" and the "animal" of the time; they were animals in human form.

"From this abject barbarism, Muhummed elevated them, in the words of Thomas Carlysle, 'into torch-bearers of light and learning.' 'TO THE ARAB NATION IT WAS AS A BIRTH FROM DARKNESS INTO LIGHT. ARABIA FIRST BECAME ALIVE BY MEANS OF IT. A POOR SHEPHERD PEOPLE, ROAMING UNNOTICED IN ITS DESERTS SINCE THE CREATION OF THE WORLD. SEE, THE UNNOTICED BECOMES WORLD NOTABLE, THE SMALL HAS GROWN WORLD-GREAT. WITHIN ONE CENTURY AFTERWARDS ARABIA WAS AT GRANADA ON ONE HAND AND AT DELHI ON THE OTHER. GLANCING IN VALOUR AND SPLENDOUR, AND THE LIGHT OF GENIUS, ARABIA SHINES OVER A GREA SECTION OF THE WORLD. ...' The fact is that Muhummed gave his people a Law and Order they never had before.

"As regards Jesus, when the Jews felt suspicious of him that he might be an imposter with designs to pervert their teachings, Jesus took pains to assure them that he had not come with a new religion - no new laws and no new regulations. I quote his own words: 'THINK NOT THAT IAM COME TO DESTROY THE LAW, OR THE PROPHETS: IAM NOT COME TO DESTROY, BUT TO FULFIL. FOR VERILY I SAY UNTO YOU, TILL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS, ONE JOT OR ONE TITLE SHALL IN NO WISE PASS FROM THE LAW, TILL ALL BE FULFILLED.'(Mathew 5:17-18). In other words he had not come with any new laws or regulation he came only to fulfil the old law. This what he gave the Jews to understand- unless he was speaking with the tongue in his cheek trying to bluff the Jews into accepting him as a man of God and by subterfuge trying to ram a new religion down their throats. No! This Messenger of God would never resort to such fo ul means to subvert the Religion of God. He himself fulfilled the laws. He observed the commandments of Moses, and he respected the Sabbath. At no time did a single Jew point a finger at him to say, 'why don't you fast' or 'why don't you wash your hands before you break bread',which charges they al wasy levied against his disciples, but never against Jesus. This is because as a good Jew he honoured the laws of the prophets who preceded him. In short, he had created no new religion and had brought no new law like Moses and Muhummed. Is this true?" I asked the dominee, and he answered: "Yes." I said:"Therefore, Jesus is not like Moses but Muhummed is like Moses."


How they Departed
(7) "Both Moses and Muhummed died natural deaths, but according to Christianity, Jesus was violently killed on the cross.(10) Is this true?" The dominee said: "Yes." I averred: "Therefore Jesus is not like Moses but Muhummed is like Moses."

Heavenly Abode
(8) "Moses and Muhummed both lie buried in earth, but according to you, Jesus in heaven. Is this true?" The dominee agreed. I said: "Therefore Jesus is not like Moses but Muhummed is like Moses."


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post #57  quote:

Ishmael The First Born
Since the dominee was helplessly agreeing with every point, I said, "Dominee, so far what I have done is to prove only one point out of the whole prophecy- that is proving the phrase 'LIKE UNTO THEE' - 'Like You' 'Like Moses'. The Prophecy is much more than this single phrase which reads as follows : "I WILL RAISE THEM UP A PROPHET FROM AMONG THEIR BRETHREN LIKE UNTO THEE......." The emphasis is on the words- "From among their brethren." Moses and his people, the Jews, are here addressed as a racial entity, and as such their 'brethren' would undoubtedly be the arabs. You see, the Holy Bible s peaks of Abraham as the "Friend of God". Abraham had two wives - Sarah and Hagar. Hagar bore Abraham a son - HIS FIRST-BORN- '......And Abraham(11) called HIS SON'S name, which Hagar bare Ishmael.' (Genesis 16:15). 'And Abraham took Ishmael HIS SON......" (Genesis 17:23). 'And Ishmael HIS SON was thirteen years old, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin.'(Genesis 17:25). Up to the age of THIRTEEN Ishmael was the ONLY son and sed of Abraham, when the covenant was ratified between God and Abraham. God grants Abraham another son through Sarah, named Isaac, wh o was very much the junior to his brother Ishmael.

Arabs and Jews
If Ishmael and Isaac are the sons of the same father Abraham, then they are brothers. And so the children of the one are the BRETHREN of the children of the other. The children of Isaac are the Jews and the Children of Ishmael are the Arabs - so they are BRETHREN to one another. The Bible affirms, 'AND HE (ISHMAEL) SHALL DWELL IN THE PRESENCE OF ALL HIS BRETHREN.' (Genesis 16:12). 'AND HE (ISHMAEL) DIED IN THE PRESENCE OF ALL HIS BRETHREN.(Genesis 25:18). The children of Isaac are the brethren of the Ishmaelites. In like manner Muhummed is from among the brethren of the Israeli tes beause he was a descendant of Ishamel the son of Abraham. This exactly as the prophecy has it- 'FROM AMONG THEIR BRETHREN'.(Deut.18:18). There the prophecy distinctly mentions that the coming prophet who would be like Moses, must arise NOT from the 'children of Israel' or from 'among the mselves', but from among their brethren. MUHUMMED THEREFORE WAS FROM AMONG THEIR BRETHREN!


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post #58  quote:

I am sorry I read all the way through the first post, skimmed through the second and then just skipped the third.... i'm lazy


it talked of how Mohammed and Moses both were Prophets and enforced the law etc. etc. etc.

well here is what set Jesus above other men:

quote:
A few days later, when Jesus again entered Capernaum, the people heard that he had come home. So many gathered that there was no room left, not even outside the door, and he preached the word to them. Some men came, bringing to him a paralytic, carried by four of them. Since they could not get him to Jesus because of the crowd, they made an opening in the roof above Jesus and, after digging through it, lowered the mat the paralyzed man was lying on. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, "Son, your sins are forgiven."
Now some teachers of the law were sitting there, thinking to themselves, "Why does this fellow talk like that? He's blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?"
Immediately Jesus knew in his spirit that this was what they were thinking in their hearts, and he said to them, "Why are you thinking these things? Which is easier: to say to the paralytic, 'Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, 'Get up, take your mat and walk'? But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins . . . ." He said to the paralytic, "I tell you, get up, take your mat and go home." He got up, took his mat and walked out in full view of them all. This amazed everyone and they praised God, saying, "We have never seen anything like this!"

Mark 2:1-12

quote:
The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group and said to Jesus, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?" They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.
But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.
At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?"
"No one, sir," she said.
"Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."

John 8:3-11

Would Moses or Mohammed do that?

quote:
Looking for a reason to accuse Jesus, they asked him, ?Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath??
He said to them, "If any of you has a sheep and it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will you not take hold of it and lift it out? How much more valuable is a man than a sheep! Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath."

Matthew 12:10-12

Would Moses or Mohammed say that?

quote:
For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

Matthew 6:14-15


Old Post 06-12-2004 06:17 PM
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raven200
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post #59  quote:



Old Post 06-12-2004 06:38 PM
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raven200
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post #60  quote:

Actually the reason I gave those long passages that you did'nt really bother to read was in relation to the mention of the Prophet Mohammed in the bible:

Also in relation to what you have written:

If sins were forgiven so easily, this would surely promote more sin as the fear of no punishment would be gone.

So is that why the western culture is so prone to permiscuity. Is it because they feel they would be forgiven?

Any way that was just my opinion, it would have helped you to understand what I was sayin much better if you had read what was in the second passage.

It's not sayin who is better then who, but is talking about who was mentioned by God to Moses as a prophet who will be like Moses when he comes.

Most Christians believe that this following passage from Deuteronomy is talking of Jesus, but I beg to differ:

"I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren,
like unto thee,
and I will put my words in his mouth;
and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him." Deut.18:18.
continue reading your self
> (Deuteronomy 18:18-22). The Christians claim that this verse refers
> to Jesus.

if you have time please read the post #55, #56 and #57.

I'm sure it will be able to provide you with evidence that the Holy prophet mohammed was mentioned in the Bible.


Old Post 06-12-2004 06:39 PM
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