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raven200
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post #91  quote:

The following is a brief insight to one of the prophets companion whos name was "Abdullah". Shows the love and affection the prophets followers had for him.
The link has an account from the book Sahih Muslim.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/history...H_AS_SAHMI.html

Now if you have read from the link, I hope you were able to understand the individuals who promote killing and violence was not the prophet but the pagan arabs of that time.
it was "Shirwaih" who killed "Badhan" his father, who promoted lawful the killing of leaders, the capturing of their women and the expropriating of their wealth.

Historical facts such as from the above link have been twisted by people like Devildog and put the blame on the Prophet for such acts. I ask you all to read from the above link and understand how devildog twists things up.

Also you can read more accounts and see how many other arab muslims had the same name "Abdullah" from the following link:

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/history...iographies.html

Now I can't help you if you do not wish to understand.
I can make stories up about Christianity and force feed it to you and say it is true.
Though I'm not as pathetic or low as that Devildog.

The prophets fathers name was "ABDULLAH"
Get the spelling correct you liar devildog.


Now Devildog ---- Just because your adding blue sentences to what the actual written verse is does'nt make your false additions true.

Stop adding your own lies onto the truth.


Old Post 06-07-2004 05:48 PM
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Sierradaddy
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post #92  quote:

Hey people, let's simmer down and return to normal debate, without name calling and personal attacks. Why does discussion on religion always have to take this type of turn? C'mon, it's DEBATE, not a war.

Old Post 06-07-2004 05:51 PM
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devildog
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post #93  quote:

Ishaq:66/Tabari VI:2 ?It is alleged, and Allah only knows the truth,( that is Islamic code for " i have no idea") that Abdul Muttalib encountered opposition when he was digging Zamzam. He vowed that if given ten sons, to make his labor less arduous and to protect him, he would sacrifice one of them to Allah at the Ka?aba.?

There is my proof. Where is yours? Did ya notice the spelling? Do I need to show you every other time it was written? I suppose that the oldest source of Islam has it wrong and you,Raven, have it right. And as far as your assertion that Allah is arabic for God, read this.

The transliterated phrase from Arabic reads, ?La ilaha illAllah.? A word for word translation into English would read: La [no] ilaha [god] ill [except or but] Allah [Allah]. The important thing to note is that the word ?Allah? is a name and is not the word for god. If ?Allah? were the word for god, then the phrase would read, ?there is no allah but allah. Clearly it does not. The Qur?an itself claims that Allah is the personal name of the Islamic god: (017.110) ?Say, Call Him Allah or call Him Ar-Rahman; whatever the name you call Him, all His names are beautiful.? If ?Allah? were the word for god, then Islam?s god is nameless. There is also no evidence that the word ?Allah? is a contraction of the words ?al ilah,? which means, ?the god.? If it were, then again, the phrase would read, ?there is no allah but allah.? As part of the first ?Pillar of Islam,? this issue is critical as Islam claims that the God of the Bible (whose name is Yahweh) and Allah are one in the same and that we all, therefore, worship the same god. Oops

Read this . ?At Mecca the Qur?an generally addressed the Quraysh who were ignorant of Islam. At Medina it was concerned with the Jews who were acquainted with the unity of Allah, Prophethood, Revelation, the Hereafter and angels. They also professed to believe in the law which was revealed by Allah to their Prophet Moses, and in principle, their way was the same Islam that was being taught by Prophet Muhammad.?

Like all things Islam, the truth has been inverted. The reason both Jews and Muslims believed in prophets, revelation, and angels was because Muhammad stole these concepts, words, and names from them.
Further, Jews believed in the oneness of Yahweh?not in some pathetic pagan rock idol named Allah. They knew that the dark spirit of the Qur?an was Lucifer. It?s obvious to anyone familiar with the Bible. Yahweh used his name 6,868 times in his scriptures. In addition, every seventieth Hebrew letter in the Torah?s central book?Leviticus?forms YHWH, bringing the grand total to a perfect 7,000. Allah?s name was never mentioned. The closest Hebrew word means ?oak tree.? The Jews had a word for god, too. It was ?el,? and they used it when describing pagan idols like the Islamic deity.
As for ?the Jewish way? being ?the same Islam,? that?s ?*&%#!. Jewish prophets predicted the future and condemned immoral behavior. The Islamic prophet authorized immoral behavior and condemned the future. They are opposites.
Torah means ?instructions? not ?laws,? but either way those guidelines were summarized in the Ten Commandments. Muhammad declared war on all of them, as did his god. They could not have been chiseled in stone by the rock idol who established a false doctrine promoting theft and murder.


Old Post 06-07-2004 06:05 PM
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devildog
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post #94  quote:

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/The...usen/arab1e.htm


Confirming that Ilah is the Arabic word for god. Allah is the name of a meccan rock idol. Nothing more.
Now you know why I have to educate Muslims on Arabic, Dekka.


Old Post 06-07-2004 06:13 PM
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raven200
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post #95  quote:

What are you on ----- Do you have a degree on arabic.
Ilah is the actual arabic for Allah.

For the sake of pronounciation the word is spelt Allah, and yes Allah is the name of God.

You don't understand the basics mate, so don't try and tell us what is and what is'nt.

I've already explained to you, that in the Quran thousands of names are used for God to explain his characteristics and beauties.

I'm not going to argue with you over something that I already understand and your trying to make a different meaning out of it.

In relation to the stone, Ive given you lots of information on that in the thread
" Jesus in india".

You seem to have no understanding of Islam, when you learn the basics then come back to me and attempt to have a decent discussion.


Old Post 06-07-2004 07:04 PM
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TWBR
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post #96  quote:

quote:
loganc said this in post #75 :
TWBR, I want to thank you for staying and debating.

I think we all, yes even devildogg, appreicaite your responses.

It is all good debate.

Thanks.


Thanks, im going to break everything down.


Old Post 06-07-2004 07:33 PM
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devildog
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post #97  quote:

quote:
raven200 said this in post #95 :
What are you on ----- Do you have a degree on arabic.
Ilah is the actual arabic for Allah.

For the sake of pronounciation the word is spelt Allah, and yes Allah is the name of God.



I'm beginning to think that you're as dumb as a rock idol.


Old Post 06-07-2004 07:34 PM
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TWBR
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post #98  quote:

Raven im going to ask you to halt your arguement with DevilDog for a minute so i can go all the way back to page 6 and reply to everything this guy has said.

Old Post 06-07-2004 07:38 PM
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devildog
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post #99  quote:

There is a reason Muslim clerics and kings don?t want the Qur?an translated. By so doing, their biggest deception dissolves. Muslims protest that Allah is simply the Arabic word for God and that we all worship the same spirit. But that?s simply not true. The Qur?an says that ?Ilah? is the Arabic word for ?God? and that ?Allah? is his name. Qur?an 3:62 ?This is the true explanation: There is no Ilah (God) except Allah.? Qur?an 52:43 ?Have they an ilah (god) other than Allah?? Qur?an 5:4 ?Pronounce the Name of Allah, and fear Allah.? Qur?an 21:107 ?Say: ?It is revealed to me that your Ilah (God) is only one Ilah (God).? Qur?an 20:8 ?Allah! There is no Ilah (God) save Him.? Qur?an 20:14 ?Verily, I am Allah. No Ilah (God) may be worshiped but I.? Qur?an 20:97 ?Your Ilah (God) is Allah: there is no Ilah (God) but He.? Qur?an 59:22 ?Allah is He, no other Ilah (God) may be worshiped; He is Allah, Whom there is no other Ilah (God).?
Qur?an 38:3 ?The disbelievers say, ?This (Prophet Muhammad) is a sorcerer, a charlatan, a wizard telling lies. He has made the alihah (gods) into one Ilah (God). This is a curious and strange thing to be sure!? Their leaders said, ?Walk away from him?there is surely some motive behind this?something sought after?a thing he has designed against us?It is surely a forgery.??

005.073 ?They are surely disbelievers who blaspheme and say: ?God is one of three in the Trinity for there is no ilah (god) except One, Allah. If they desist not from saying this, verily a grievous penalty will befall them.?


011.050 ?To Ad We sent Hud. He said: ?O my people, serve Allah, you have no ilah (God) other than He. You are nothing but forgers of lies.? Allah will send on you clouds pouring down abundance of rain.??

037.033 ?Truly, they will all share at the Penalty of Doom. That is how We shall deal with the Mujrimun (non-Muslims). For when they were told that there is no ilah (god) but Allah, they puffed themselves up with pride and were scornful. They said: ?What, shall we give up our alihah (gods) for the sake of an insane possessed poet??? This was ?revealed? so Muhammad could lash out at the Meccans. They called him insane for turning many idols into one god. They said he was demon-possessed due to the hellish tone of his Qur?an.
As you might expect, Allah didn?t see it that way. Muhammad?s alter ego had but one spokesperson. If he faltered, Allah crumbled with him. 037.037 ?Nay, he has come with the truth, and he confirms the Message of the messengers before him. You shall indeed taste the grievous penalty of painful doom.? Tease Muhammad and Allah will burn you. It?s the Qur?an?s never-ending taunt. Wanna keep this up? There is more. Or shall we move on to other issues?


Old Post 06-07-2004 07:47 PM
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devildog
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post #100  quote:

quote:
TWBR said this in post #98 :
Raven im going to ask you to halt your arguement with DevilDog for a minute so i can go all the way back to page 6 and reply to everything this guy has said.


Please do. But make it quick. I have to run out for a while plus my lightning are getting ready to win the Stanley Cup. I have places to go. I can hardly wait for your response. Over time we have established that Allah and Mecca predate Mo by at least 5 generations. We know that Mo's dad was named "slave to Allah". We know that all 5 pillars of Islam were established by Qusayy many, many years before Mo was born. We know Islam is Pagan. We know that Islams lone prophet was a pedophile, rapist, murderer, plunderer,slave trader and a terrorist. We know that Ilah is the word used in the Qu'ran for "god" and Allah is just a name of a Meccan pagan rock idol-one among many. What did I miss? Sure, that sounds like the God I know. I have provided 10 times the proof needed to make these claims so if you are done with the juvenile attempts at debunking them, we can move on. Ready?


Old Post 06-07-2004 08:06 PM
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raven200
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post #101  quote:

Why don't you write only the translation without your added words to it.

Your comment:


Qur?an 3:62 ?This is the true explanation: There is no Ilah (God) except Allah.? Qur?an 52:43 ?Have they an ilah (god) other than Allah?? Qur?an 5:4 ?Pronounce the Name of Allah, and fear Allah.? Qur?an 21:107 ?Say: ?It is revealed to me that your Ilah (God) is only one Ilah (God).? Qur?an 20:8 ?Allah! There is no Ilah (God) save Him.? Again you have added your own little bit in this quote, even thought the meaning is still the same, that thier is no God but Allah.

Qur?an 20:14 ?Verily, I am Allah. No Ilah (God) may be worshiped but I.? Qur?an 20:97 ?Your Ilah (God) is Allah: there is no Ilah (God) but He.? Qur?an 59:22 ?Allah is He, no other Ilah (God) may be worshiped; He is Allah, Whom there is no other Ilah (God).?
Qur?an 38:3 ?The disbelievers say, ?This (Prophet Muhammad) is a sorcerer, a charlatan, a wizard telling lies. He has made the alihah (gods) into one Ilah (God).

I don't know where you get your translation from but the top highlighted bit is not in the Quran, as you have written it.

ALSO does not that last quote you gave from the Quran prove that the prophet had belief in only one god, as the idol worshippers said themselves. You have just given evidence against your argument.


Why do you add your own words in the translation. In the translation above you have added a number of your own words thus, trying to change the actual meaning.

Why don't you write only the translation without your added words to it.

You are hopeless, you hav'nt proved anything except for what a liar you are, your arguments don't prove that muslims believe in more then one God, all the evidence you have given contradicts to what you are trying to say.


Last edited by raven200 on 06-07-2004 at 08:32 PM |
Old Post 06-07-2004 08:11 PM
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raven200
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post #102  quote:

Your statement earlier:

Qur?an 56:13 ?A multitude of those from among the first, and a few from the latter, (will be) on couch-like thrones woven with gold and precious stones. Reclining, facing each other. Round about them will (serve) boys of perpetual (freshness), of never ending bloom, with goblets, jugs, and cups (filled) with sparkling wine. No aching of the head will they receive{had a hangover before?}, nor suffer any madness, nor exhaustion. And with fruits, any that they may select: and the flesh of fowls, any they may desire. And (there will be) Hur (fair females) with big eyes, lovely and pure, beautiful ones, like unto hidden pearls, well-guarded in their shells. A reward for the deeds.?

Also in relation to your above Quotation of the Quran in which again you have added you own words. Below is the actual translation:
People can clearly see the difference.

[56:13] And will be in the Gardens of Bliss - A large party from among the first believers, And a few from among the later ones, Seated on couches inwrought with gold and jewels, Reclining thereon, facing each other. There will wait on them youths who will not age, Carrying goblets and ewers and cups filled out of a flowing spring - No headache will they get therefrom, nor will they be intoxicated - .

Yes it is a beautifull description of Heaven. You can twist these things in your own dirty mind and make them something that is to the level of your understanding only. Only a pure mind would understand the pureness of what is offered in heaven.


Old Post 06-07-2004 08:55 PM
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devildog
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post #103  quote:

OK you busted me. It wasn't 38:3....it was 38:4-6

This is what I said
38:3The disbelievers say, ?This (Prophet Muhammad) is a sorcerer, a charlatan, a wizard telling lies. He has made the alihah (gods) into one Ilah (God). This is a curious and strange thing to be sure!? Their leaders said, ?Walk away from him?there is surely some motive behind this?something sought after?a thing he has designed against us?It is surely a forgery.??

It was actually the fourth verse where I got it from. Here are many translations so you have nothing else to say. At least I was close. It did come from the 38th surah and was extremely close. See you did find an error. Good Job
38:4
Pickthall: And they marvel that a warner from among themselves hath come unto them, and the disbelievers say: This is a wizard, a charlatan.
Yusuf Ali: So they wonder that a Warner has come to them from among themselves! and the Unbelievers say, "This is a sorcerer telling lies!

38:5
Pickthall:Maketh he the gods One God? Lo! that is an astounding thing.

Yusuf Ali:"Has he made the gods (all) into one God? Truly this is a wonderful thing!"

Shakir:What! makes he the gods a single God? A strange thing is this, to be sure!

Sher Ali:`What! has he made all the gods into one God? This is, indeed, an astounding thing.'

Khalifa:"Did he make the gods into one god? This is really strange."

Palmer:What! does he make the gods to be one God? verily, this is a wondrous thing.

SaleDoth he affirm the gods [to be but] one God? Surely this [is] a wonderful thing.

Rodwell:Maketh he the gods to be but one god? A strange thing forsooth is this!"

And just in case you can read arabic

Transliterated Arabic: aAAala al-alihata ilahan wahidan inna hatha lashay-on AAujabun


038:006


Pickthall:The chiefs among them go about, exhorting: Go and be staunch to your gods! Lo! this is a thing designed.

Yusuf Ali: And the leader among them go away (impatiently), (saying), "Walk ye away, and remain constant to your gods! For this is truly a thing designed (against you)!

Shakir:And the chief persons of them break forth, saying: Go and steadily adhere to your gods; this is most surely a thing sought after.

Sher Ali:And the leaders among them went about saying `Go and stick to your gods. This is a thing to be desired;

Khalifa:The leaders announced, "Go and steadfastly persevere in worshipping your gods. This is what is desired.

Palmer: And the chiefs of them went away: 'Go on and persevere in your gods; this is a thing designed;

Sale:And the chief men among them departed, [saying to one another], go, and persevere in [the worship of] your gods: Verily this is the thing which is designed.

Rodwell:And their chiefs took themselves off. "Go, said they, and cleave steadfastly to your gods. Ye see the thing aimed at.

Transliterated Arabic:Waintalaqa almalao minhum ani imshoo waisbiroo AAala alihatikum inna hatha lashay-on yuradu


Last edited by devildog on 06-07-2004 at 09:36 PM |
Old Post 06-07-2004 09:08 PM
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TWBR
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post #104  quote:

Raven - Blue
DevilDog - Red
Me - Green


Islam does not promote suicide of anysort.
There is no better deed according to your Prophet
Now DevilDog, why would Islam promote suicide if Allah (S.W.T.) says in the Qura'n in Surat 4 (An-Nisa' or Women ), verses 29 & 30, :'' O you who believe! ..........., And do not kill yourselves. Surely, Allah is Most Merciful to you. And whoever commits that through aggression and injustice, We shall cast him into the Fire, and that is easy for Allah.''

Islam does not promote attack on innocent peaceful people.
Absolutely historical.The last thing your Prophet said before taking a dirt nap was "wipe the infidels out til the last"
In Surah Al-Isra, verse 17:33, it says : Nor take life - which Allah has made sacred - except for just cause. And if anyone is slain wrongfully, we have given his heir authority (to demand qisas or to forgive): but let him nor exceed bounds in the matter of taking life; for he is helped (by the Law).
Based on this verse, it is Islamically unlawful to murder anyone who is innocent of crimes.

Islam does give Muslims the right to defend themselves, only when attacked.
73 out of the 75 Terrorist raids that Mo personally went on in the Qu'ran were unprovoked.The other 2 are when the Meccans were tired of the treatment.
To use Prophet Muhammed's struggle to convert Pagans and people with no religion is very unaccurate because at the time, Prophet Mohammed was at war with the Meccans.
Also, in verse 22:39 it says : To those against whom war is made, permission is given (to fight), because they are wronged;- and verily, Allah is most powerful for their aid;-


Islam informs us to believe all the Prophets and their Books.
The ONLY reason Islam even knows about Prophets are because Mo stole parts of the Bible, plagiarized, and butchered them to give the Qu'ran it's limited religious overtone. Without the Jews giving these to Mo( or selling), what would the Qu'ran be? Why didn't we just translate the Hebrew Bible into Arabic and be done with it, if that's the case?
Are you kidding me? The Quran came straight from God, Prophet Mohammed didnt write it, it just shoes how wrong you are, an angel ( Gibril ) came down every night and taught Prophet Mohammed the Quran until he fully and accurately memorized it, then the Prophet had his followers write it down and he came back to the angel or God to review it.

Islam promotes worship of one God and one God only.
Yeah right. They worship one God but every one of the 5 pillars are Pagan, as I have already proved. And hate to burst your bubble but Allah predates Mo by many generations. It is a stone, my friend. Nothing more. Infact, I can point to you where Ishaq tells us that Allah wasn't even the most important stone. Hubal was. Ever hear of Abd-Allah, or Slave-to-Allah?
Now why would someone name a kid ?Slave-to-Allah? a generation before Islam?s prophet claimed Allah was the creator-god of the universe? The answer is as embarrassing as any in the annals of religious lore. For all Muhammad really did was promote one of the existing Meccan idols, the moon god Allah, above Hubal, Al-Lat, Manat, Al-Uzza, and hundreds of others.

Ok, have a lot of things to break down,
First of all, one of the main thing that Muslims are taught that there is no God but Allah, we can see this in verse 112:1 :
He is Allah, the One and Only;


Second of all, you call the 5 Pillars of Islam Pagan
Lets take a look at the 5 Pillars of Islam and let them speak for themselvs :

1) FAITH : Every Muslim must acknowledge that there is no god worthy of worship except God and Muhammad is His messenger.

2) PRAYER : Salat ( Prayer ) is the name for the obligatory prayers which are performed five times a day, and are a direct link between the worshipper and God.

3) THE 'ZAKAT' : One of the most important principles of Islam is that all things belong to God, and that wealth is therefore held by human beings in trust. The word zakat means both 'purification' and 'growth'. Our possessions are purified by setting aside a proportion for those in need, and, like the pruning of plants, this cutting back balances and encourages new growth.

In other words, we need to give to the poor and share our wealth, Prophet Mohammed said 'Charity is a necessity for every Muslim. '

4) THE FAST : Every year in the month of Ramadan, all Muslims fast from first light until sundown, abstaining from food, drink, and sexual relations. Although the fast is most beneficial to the health, it is regarded principally as a method of self purification. By cutting oneself off from worldly comforts, even for a short time, a fasting person gains true sympathy with those who go hungry as well as growth in one's spiritual life.

Those who are sick, elderly, or on a journey, and women who are pregnant or nursing are permitted to break the fast and make up an equal number of days later in the year. If they are physically unable to do this, they must feed a needy person for every day missed. Children begin to fast (and to observe the prayer) from puberty, although many start earlier.

5) PILGRIMAGE (HAJJ) : The annual pilgrimage to Makkah - the Hajj - is an obligation only for those who are physically and financially able to perform it


If you call this Pagan, then you need help.

Now, why would some one name their kid ?Slave-to-Allah? a generation before Islam?s prophet claimed Allah was the creator of everything? Gee, like i said before, Allah is used by Arab Christians and Arab Jews because it is one of the Arabic words for God.


Then you said that the Prophet promoted Idols, but how is that possible when the Quran clearly states in Verse 7:138 :
We took the Children of Israel (with safety) across the sea. They came upon a people devoted entirely to some idols they had. They said: "O Moses! fashion for us a god like unto the gods they have." He said: "Surely ye are a people without knowledge.
and Verse 14:30 :
"And they set up (idols) as equal to Allah, to mislead (men) from the Path! Say: "Enjoy (your brief power)! But verily ye are making straightway for Hell!"


We Muslims do not wish to come across as war loving killers.
It is far from the truth ----- What goes on in Palastine or in afghanistan is not to do with religion, it is to do with land and persecution.

Islam has blinded you
Islam has not blinded him, Islam will ensures him to the right path.
I would love to see your face when judgement day comes


People in palastine kill themselves as suicide bombers, not because Islam says so, its because they have nothing left to live for, their families have been killed their houses demolished and their land taken.
Whaaaah. Getting drunk, having 2-72 virgins and a perpetual erection have nothing to do with it, I guess. Tell me if this is true or not. When suicide bombers are buried, they are not cleaned of the infidel blood upon them because Allah will look more favorably upon them with this blood. This I am not 100% positive on but I have heard this. And it is certainly consistent with Islam. The more Infidels that one kills before becoming a martyr, the more virgins they get. BTW, Muslims should not EVER pull the morality card. Look at the paradise that their God has in store for them- Booze & sex.
Allah lets those who are oppressed fight back in Verse 22:39 : "Permission (to fight) is given to those upon whom war is made because they are oppressed, and most surely Allah is well able to assist them."
Im not really 100% sure about the 72 virgin thing, but all i know that its an award for those who devoted themselvs in believing in Allah and his messenger.
One more thing which has made you completely wrong is that you said that Prophet Mohammed was a drunk, why would he be when God says in Verse 5:90 : "O ye who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination,- of Satan's handwork: eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper."



Afghanistan is full of uneducated people, they do not practice the correct Islam, I mean if you think of it the country only survives because of its Heroin plants. And how do Palestinians survive? Handouts.
Muslims are the least free people in the world, regardless of where they dwell.
Notice how DevilDog says this in complete ignorance, doesnt present any facts or examples, Muslims might not seem free because God orders them to stay away from things which are bad to them and are bad overall.
For example : Pre-marrige sex, Prostitution, and going to Clubs. All three could do harm to us, and Islam does a good job keeping Muslims away from them.


The afghani's were used by the American's to fight the russians in the cold war, they were provided with weaponary to destroy russian fighters. This was nothing to do with Islam it was to do with Politics and the uneducated Afghani's were used in this by the Americans.
You are so clueless. Who sided with the Russians?
No comment, i dont know much about this

If you think about it, all this warfare in the world could be resolved by the American's but they do not wish to do so, They support the Israelis in destroying arab homes, they went and destroyed afghanistan in the Hunt for the ever invisible Osama bin laden. They went and destroyed Iraq for the sake of the invisible weapons of Mass destruction. What is so peaceful that the American nation has done ---- nothing as yet.
Yeah, Yeah, thats the ticket. It America's fault. Simpleton. Arabs consist of 1 fifth of the population but are responsible for 90% of all wars. Even an intellectually challenged individual like yourself can figure that one out, right?
Hmmm, why dont we talk about this soon?

America is a Christian country and your president is a Christian man. Never before so much blood has been spilt for the sake of peace!!
If it weren't for those damn Jews flying the airplanes into the trade center & killing 3000 people.... BTW, this War is almost blood-free if you want to compare it to our other conflicts for freedom.
America is a Christian country, but in a couple of years, Islam would be the most practiced Religion.
Bush is not a Christian, hes an anti-christ.
The Iraq war blood-free? Why dont i take out the pictures of Iraqi kids and women dead?


Islam has grown rapidly over the eastern hemisphere of our planet, why is this so ---- this is because Islam promotes fairness and love for one another
show me just ONE surah promoting such
I will provide if Raven hasnt.

Even in the western hemisphere many millions are slowly starting to except this faith, not because the are forced to do so, but because it shows them the true God and what God expects from us.
Sure was a great read if one is into reading about Ravens OPINION. I'M NOT!!!! Why do I have to continually tell you Muslims that I don't want your ignorant opinions? Are you incapable of disputing the facts with the very books you revere? I hope the next time you begin to type, it has some evidence in it. You must be aware that you have not been able to use your scriptures to refute a single thing. Doesn't this tell you something? I repeat: DO NOT write back with " Islam is this or Islam is that........without proof that it is so. Keep your enlightened opinions to islam.com. They love 'em. Here, it is a waste of time. Other than that, great post.
Its a fact that many Americans are converting into Islam, i already showed two examples, the Gangster and the KKK member who left their bad deeds and started to embrace Islam.

Allah made the Quran and Prophet Mohammed made the Hadiths.


Old Post 06-07-2004 09:17 PM
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post #105  quote:

Im done for today, will be back tomorrow.

Old Post 06-07-2004 09:18 PM
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devildog
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post #106  quote:

quote:
raven200 said this in post #102 :
Your statement earlier:

Qur?an 56:13 ?A multitude of those from among the first, and a few from the latter, (will be) on couch-like thrones woven with gold and precious stones. Reclining, facing each other. Round about them will (serve) boys of perpetual (freshness), of never ending bloom, with goblets, jugs, and cups (filled) with sparkling wine. No aching of the head will they receive{had a hangover before?}, nor suffer any madness, nor exhaustion. And with fruits, any that they may select: and the flesh of fowls, any they may desire. And (there will be) Hur (fair females) with big eyes, lovely and pure, beautiful ones, like unto hidden pearls, well-guarded in their shells. A reward for the deeds.?

Also in relation to your above Quotation of the Quran in which
again you have added you own words. Below is the actual translation:
People can clearly see the difference.

[56:13] And will be in the Gardens of Bliss - A large party from among the first believers, And a few from among the later ones, Seated on couches inwrought with gold and jewels, Reclining thereon, facing each other. There will wait on them youths who will not age, Carrying goblets and ewers and cups filled out of a flowing spring - No headache will they get therefrom, nor will they be intoxicated - .

Yes it is a beautifull description of Heaven. You can twist these things in your own dirty mind and make them something that is to the level of your understanding only. Only a pure mind would understand the pureness of what is offered in heaven.


You are such a knucklehead. You don't even understand the changes in the Qu'ran. Do you understand that every 5th sentence or so, is undecipherable in ANY language. The book is a mess and it needed help, basically. Scholars have added or abrogated the text over time. The words in parenthesis are not mine. Only the words that have {these} are my words. Brush up on Islam and get back to me.

Qur?an 56:13 ?A multitude of those from among the first, and a few from the latter, (will be) on couch-like thrones woven with gold and precious stones. Reclining, facing each other. Round about them will (serve) boys of perpetual (freshness), of never ending bloom, with goblets, jugs, and cups (filled) with sparkling wine. No aching of the head will they receive{had a hangover before?}, nor suffer any madness, nor exhaustion. And with fruits, any that they may select: and the flesh of fowls, any they may desire. And (there will be) Hur (fair females) with big eyes, lovely and pure, beautiful ones, like unto hidden pearls, well-guarded in their shells. A reward for the deeds.?


We can let everyone judge if I have corrupted the message.

First, this is my qoute:
Qur?an 56:13 ?A multitude of those from among the first, and a few from the latter, (will be) on couch-like thrones woven with gold and precious stones. Reclining, facing each other. Round about them will (serve) boys of perpetual (freshness), of never ending bloom, with goblets, jugs, and cups (filled) with sparkling wine. No aching of the head will they receive{had a hangover before?}, nor suffer any madness, nor exhaustion. And with fruits, any that they may select: and the flesh of fowls, any they may desire. And (there will be) Hur (fair females) with big eyes, lovely and pure, beautiful ones, like unto hidden pearls, well-guarded in their shells. A reward for the deeds.?

Here are only 3 translations of the message.

056.013
YUSUFALI: A number of people from those of old,
PICKTHAL: A multitude of those of old
SHAKIR: A numerous company from among the first,

056.014
YUSUFALI: And a few from those of later times.
PICKTHAL: And a few of those of later time.
SHAKIR: And a few from among the latter.

056.015
YUSUFALI: (They will be) on Thrones encrusted (with gold and precious stones),
PICKTHAL: On lined couches,
SHAKIR: On thrones decorated,

056.016
YUSUFALI: Reclining on them, facing each other.
PICKTHAL: Reclining therein face to face.
SHAKIR: Reclining on them, facing one another.

056.017
YUSUFALI: Round about them will (serve) youths of perpetual (freshness),
PICKTHAL: There wait on them immortal youths
SHAKIR: Round about them shall go youths never altering in age,

056.018
YUSUFALI: With goblets, (shining) beakers, and cups (filled) out of clear-flowing fountains:
PICKTHAL: With bowls and ewers and a cup from a pure spring
SHAKIR: With goblets and ewers and a cup of pure drink;

056.019
YUSUFALI: No after-ache will they receive therefrom, nor will they suffer intoxication:
PICKTHAL: Wherefrom they get no aching of the head nor any madness,
SHAKIR: They shall not be affected with headache thereby, nor shall they get exhausted,

056.020
YUSUFALI: And with fruits, any that they may select:
PICKTHAL: And fruit that they prefer
SHAKIR: And fruits such as they choose,

056.021
YUSUFALI: And the flesh of fowls, any that they may desire.
PICKTHAL: And flesh of fowls that they desire.
SHAKIR: And the flesh of fowl such as they desire.

056.022
YUSUFALI: And (there will be) Companions with beautiful, big, and lustrous eyes,-
PICKTHAL: And (there are) fair ones with wide, lovely eyes,
SHAKIR: And pure, beautiful ones,

056.023
YUSUFALI: Like unto Pearls well-guarded.
PICKTHAL: Like unto hidden pearls,
SHAKIR: The like of the hidden pearls:

056.024
YUSUFALI: A Reward for the deeds of their past (life).
PICKTHAL: Reward for what they used to do.
SHAKIR: A reward for what they used to do.

Where was I wrong? Nice try though.


Old Post 06-07-2004 09:21 PM
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post #107  quote:

okay i don't know if i'm missing something but let me explain something about translating things from one language to another


IT DOESN'T ALWAYS GO WORD FOR WORD

if one person posts a translation, don't say they are twisting the words and then post the "real" translation. THEY CARRY THE EXACT SAME MEANING.

ok. carry on.


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post #108  quote:

Twbr said Im done for today, will be back tomorrow.


Hopefully smarter


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post #109  quote:

Unfortunately Devildog, I never argued with the translation if you had'nt realised, I argued with what extra wording you had added to it. You are trying to manipulate words, I'm sure others will see this much more clearly.


I mean your trying to debate with muslims and even we don't understand half of your weird stories, and yes they are stories, which I have no idea where your getting from.
Also when you do use a quote you totally attempt to change it by adding your own bits and bobs to it, but as yet you hav'nt been succesful in doing that properly either.

Also dekkah if you read what he has written as translation and the extra bits he's added and then what I have written you can clearly see he is putting extra bits in to make the reader have a different view of the translation.

an example is the translation he has given for:

056.018
YUSUFALI: With goblets, (shining) beakers, and cups (filled) out of clear-flowing fountains:
PICKTHAL: With bowls and ewers and a cup from a pure spring
SHAKIR: With goblets and ewers and a cup of pure drink;


Read in the Quote he had translated in originaly as wine??
I mean where did the wine come in from???

You are a joke. I can no longer take you seriously, I don't think many people do.


Last edited by raven200 on 06-07-2004 at 10:04 PM |
Old Post 06-07-2004 09:43 PM
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post #110  quote:

quote:
raven200 said this in post #109 :
Unfortunately Devildog, I never argued with the translation if you had'nt realised,Yes you did. You said it didn't exist in the Qu'ran I argued with what extra wording you had added to it. You are trying to manipulate words, I'm sure others will see this much more clearly.

Also you hav'nt even bothered explaining what you were on about in
post #101. I didn't edit it properly and had to go back and do so. I was ready to move on bright one. I wanted to speak of Luhayy and had it ready to go before you both started to get me side tracked. I am sure you have no idea who he is, so it will give you time to brush up.

On top of that You have totally avoided what TWBR has said in response to your childish comments.

Don't know what you are referring to, but who cares if TW thinks I am childish or not?

TWBR has given us all a great example of how you avoid areas, but keep on about your own little agenda, which makes no sense half the time.

Tell me what areas I avoid, please. TW has given nothing.

I mean your trying to debate with muslims and even we don't understand half of your weird stories, and yes they are stories, which I have no idea where your getting from.

How shocking

Also when you do use a quote you totally attempt to change it by adding your own bits and bobs to it, but as yet you hav'nt been succesful in doing that properly either.

Also dekkah if you read what he has written as translation and the extra bits he's added and then what I have written you can clearly see he is putting extra bits in to make the reader have a different view of the translation.

Insertions within parenthesis (like this) were added by the Arabic translators to fill in missing words or to clarify the text.

You are a joke. Islam is the Joke Raven


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post #111  quote:

Unfortunately Devildog, I never argued with the translation if you had'nt realised, I argued with what extra wording you had added to it. You are trying to manipulate words, I'm sure others will see this much more clearly.


I mean your trying to debate with muslims and even we don't understand half of your weird stories, and yes they are stories, which I have no idea where your getting from.
Also when you do use a quote you totally attempt to change it by adding your own bits and bobs to it, but as yet you hav'nt been succesful in doing that properly either.

Also dekkah if you read what he has written as translation and the extra bits he's added and then what I have written you can clearly see he is putting extra bits in to make the reader have a different view of the translation.

an example is the translation he has given for:

056.018
YUSUFALI: With goblets, (shining) beakers, and cups (filled) out of clear-flowing fountains:
PICKTHAL: With bowls and ewers and a cup from a pure spring
SHAKIR: With goblets and ewers and a cup of pure drink;


Read in the Quote he had translated in originaly as wine??
I mean where did the wine come in from???

You are a joke. I can no longer take you seriously, I don't think many people do.

Im having to paste this again, explain yourself?

Qur?an 56:13 ?A multitude of those from among the first, and a few from the latter, (will be) on couch-like thrones woven with gold and precious stones. Reclining, facing each other. Round about them will (serve) boys of perpetual (freshness), of never ending bloom, with goblets, jugs, and cups (filled) with sparkling wine. No aching of the head will they receive{had a hangover before?}, nor suffer any madness, nor exhaustion. And with fruits, any that they may select: and the flesh of fowls, any they may desire. And (there will be) Hur (fair females) with big eyes, lovely and pure, beautiful ones, like unto hidden pearls, well-guarded in their shells. A reward for the deeds.?

This is your original translation!!!
This is a great example of how you change and add words to your own accord.


Old Post 06-07-2004 10:16 PM
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post #112  quote:

quote:
raven200 said this in post #111 :

Im having to paste this again, explain yourself?

Qur?an 56:13 ?A multitude of those from among the first, and a few from the latter, (will be) on couch-like thrones woven with gold and precious stones. Reclining, facing each other. Round about them will (serve) boys of perpetual (freshness), of never ending bloom, with goblets, jugs, and cups (filled) with sparkling wine. No aching of the head will they receive{had a hangover before?}, nor suffer any madness, nor exhaustion. And with fruits, any that they may select: and the flesh of fowls, any they may desire. And (there will be) Hur (fair females) with big eyes, lovely and pure, beautiful ones, like unto hidden pearls, well-guarded in their shells. A reward for the deeds.?



In verse 18 in the 56th surah, both Rodwell and Palmer have these translations."with goblets and ewers and a cup of flowing wine".

And incase you think this is the only place where wine is mentioned, think again. You seem to be one of the few Muslims who don't know the rewards for killing. Mo's paradise is a drunken orgy, simple as that. The more Jews and Christians you kill, the better chance you have to get there.

047:015
Pickthall- A similitude of the Garden which those who keep their duty (to Allah) are promised: Therein are rivers of water unpolluted, and rivers of milk whereof the flavour changeth not, and rivers of wine delicious to the drinkers, and rivers of clear-run honey; therein for them is every kind of fruit, with pardon from their Lord. (Are those who enjoy all this) like those who are immortal in the Fire and are given boiling water to drink so that it teareth their bowels?

Yusuf Ali- (Here is) a Parable of the Garden which the righteous are promised: in it are rivers of water incorruptible; rivers of milk of which the taste never changes; rivers of wine , a joy to those who drink; and rivers of honey pure and clear. In it there are for them all kinds of fruits; and Grace from their Lord. (Can those in such Bliss) be compared to such as shall dwell for ever in the Fire, and be given, to drink, boiling water, so that it cuts up their bowels (to pieces)?

Shakir- A parable of the garden which those guarding (against evil) are promised: Therein are rivers of water that does not alter, and rivers of milk the taste whereof does not change, and rivers of drink delicious to those who drink, and rivers of honey clarified and for them therein are all fruits and protection from their Lord. (Are these) like those who abide in the fire and who are made to drink boiling water so it rends their bowels asunder.

Sher Ali- A description of the Garden promised to the righteous: Therein are streams of water which corrupts not; and streams of milk of which the taste changes not; and streams of wine, a delight to those who drink; and streams of clarified honey. And in it they will have all kinds of fruit, and forgiveness from their Lord. Can those who enjoy such bliss be like those who abide in the Fire and who are given boiling water to drink so that it tears their bowels?

Khalifa- The allegory of Paradise that is promised for the righteous is this: it has rivers of unpolluted water, and rivers of fresh milk, and rivers of wine - delicious for the drinkers - and rivers of strained honey. They have all kinds of fruits therein, and forgiveness from their Lord. (Are they better) or those who abide forever in the hellfire, and drink hellish water that tears up their intestines?

Palmer- The similitude of Paradise which is promised to the pious,- in it are rivers of water without corruption, and rivers of milk, the taste whereof changes not, and rivers of wine delicious to those who drink; and rivers of honey clarified; and there shall they have all kinds of fruit and forgiveness from their Lord! (Is that) like him who dwells in the fire for aye? and who are given to drink boiling water that shall rend their bowels asunder?
Sale The description of paradise, which is promised unto the pious: Therein [are] rivers of incorruptibel water; and rivers of milk, the taste whereof changeth not; and rivers of wine, pleasant unto those who drink; and rivers of clarified honey: And therein shall they have [plenty] of all [kinds] of fruits; and pardon from their Lord. [Shall the man for whom these things are prepared, be] as he who must dwell for ever in [hell] fire; and will have the boiling water given them to drink, which shall burst their bowels?

Rodwell - A picture of the Paradise which is promised to the God-fearing! Therein are rivers of water, which corrupt not: rivers of milk, whose taste changeth not: and rivers of wine , delicious to those who quaff it; And rivers of honey clarified: and therein are all kinds of fruit for them from their Lord! Is this like the lot of those who must dwell for ever in the fire? and shall have draughts of boiling water forced on them which will rend their bowels asunder?

076:005

Yusuf Ali- As to the Righteous, they shall drink of a Cup (of Wine) mixed with Kafur, -
Sale- But the just shall drink of a cup [of wine], mixed with [the water of] Cafur,
Rodwell- But a wine cup tempered at the camphor fountain the just shall quaff

076:017

Yusuf Ali- And they will be given to drink there of a Cup (of Wine ) mixed with Zanjabil, -
Sale- And therein shall they be given to drink of a cup [of wine], mixed with [the water] of Zenjebil,

076:021

Yusuf Ali- Upon them will be green Garments of fine silk and heavy brocade, and they will be adorned with Bracelets of silver; and their Lord will give to them to drink of a Wine Pure and Holy.

083:025

Pickthall- They are given to drink of a pure wine , sealed,
Yusuf Ali- Their thirst will be slaked with Pure Wine sealed:
Sale- They shall be given to drink of pure wine , sealed;
Rodwell- Choice sealed wine shall be given them to quaff

I added NOTHING to those BTW.


Old Post 06-08-2004 12:25 AM
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post #113  quote:

quote:
TWBR said this in post #104 :
Raven - Blue
DevilDog - Red
Me - Green



Now DevilDog, why would Islam promote suicide if Allah (S.W.T.) says in the Qura'n in Surat 4 (An-Nisa' or Women ), verses 29 & 30, :'' O you who believe! ..........., And do not kill yourselves. Surely, Allah is Most Merciful to you. And whoever commits that through aggression and injustice, We shall cast him into the Fire, and that is easy for Allah.''

Theres that fire theme again. Perhaps it would make sense to you why these are there if you knew that Mo tried to kill himself several times. Too bad


Based on this verse, it is Islamically unlawful to murder anyone who is innocent of crimes.

Then Allah and his prophet both are dripping with guilt.

To use Prophet Muhammed's struggle to convert Pagans and people with no religion is very unaccurate because at the time, Prophet Mohammed was at war with the Meccans.
Also, in verse 22:39 it says : To those against whom war is made, permission is given (to fight), because they are wronged;- and verily, Allah is most powerful for their aid;-


73 out of the 75 Terrorist raids that Mo personally went on in the Qu'ran were unprovoked.

Are you kidding me? The Quran came straight from God, Prophet Mohammed didnt write it, it just shoes how wrong you are, an angel ( Gibril ) came down every night and taught Prophet Mohammed the Quran until he fully and accurately memorized it, then the Prophet had his followers write it down and he came back to the angel or God to review it.

Is this what they are telling you? Ignorance is bliss. The dark spirit that came to Mo was more likely Lucifer than anyone else. That is a different thread entirely. After Mo got his first revelation( it's funny just writing it) it was three years before "Gabriel" came to visit again. Mo couldn't get the black stone to do anything for him at the Ka'aba during this time and this is one of the times he tried to commit suicide( Gabriel talked him down from the cliff...damn). So no, he didn't have nightly appearances. Secondly, Mo would not allow the Qur'an to be constructed during his life. It wasn't done until long after Mo was gone. It was passed down verbally. And why would God need to review his own words?

Ok, have a lot of things to break down,
First of all, one of the main thing that Muslims are taught that there is no God but Allah, we can see this in verse 112:1 :
He is Allah, the One and Only;


Second of all, you call the 5 Pillars of Islam Pagan
Lets take a look at the 5 Pillars of Islam and let them speak for themselvs :.


Perhaps you need to go back and read that peice about Qusayy.It proves beyond any doubt that he,not Mo, is responsible for the Pillars of Islam. Pagan!!
If you want to dispute the facts contained within that post, please do so. I will not re-post it here.

Now, why would some one name their kid ?Slave-to-Allah? a generation before Islam?s prophet claimed Allah was the creator of everything? Gee, like i said before, Allah is used by Arab Christians and Arab Jews because it is one of the Arabic words for God
I wonder if you even know just how silly you sound


Its a fact that many Americans are converting into Islam, i already showed two examples, the Gangster and the KKK member who left their bad deeds and started to embrace Islam.

They should fit in great. Stupid and violent



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post #114  quote:

You see guys? I have taken DevilDog's claims and i have proved how wrong they are, any more DevilDog?

Old Post 06-08-2004 02:12 AM
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post #115  quote:

quote:
TWBR said this in post #114 :
You see guys? I have taken DevilDog's claims and i have proved how wrong they are, any more DevilDog?


Care to elaborate? You did?


Last edited by devildog on 06-08-2004 at 04:29 AM |
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post #116  quote:

Ok again you keep lying and making mistakes:

In relation to what you have written:

076:005

Yusuf Ali- As to the Righteous, they shall drink of a Cup (of Wine) mixed with Kafur, -
Sale- But the just shall drink of a cup [of wine], mixed with [the water of] Cafur,
Rodwell- But a wine cup tempered at the camphor fountain the just shall quaff

For the above Quote you have again got the verse wrong, and on top of that no where in the quran is thier mention of intoxicants, that will be given to us in heaven.

This I can prove with the three translation you yourself printed earliar:

056.019
YUSUFALI: No after-ache will they receive therefrom, nor will they suffer intoxication:
PICKTHAL: Wherefrom they get no aching of the head nor any madness,
SHAKIR: They shall not be affected with headache thereby, nor shall they get exhausted,


----------------------------------------------------------------------

076:017
Yusuf Ali- And they will be given to drink there of a Cup (of Wine ) mixed with Zanjabil, -
Sale- And therein shall they be given to drink of a cup [of wine], mixed with [the water] of Zenjebil,


Even for this you have given the wrong verse: Also adding you own little bit about the wine.

Thiers no point in putting the word "wine" in brackets now, what you did in an earlier quote that I pointed out to everyone, you had clearly changed the word, no bracket no nothing, you had attempted to change a whole sentence.

You hav'nt even bothered answering me why you are changing the translation into your own words.

People who want to see what a liar devildog is go back to post #111 and everything will be obvious. You can also see how he asks me in post #106 how he is wrong and how he is adding words into the translation of the Quran, and yet he gives further down in the same quote the correct translation which proves that he does add extra words.

I'm not going to bother with you anymore devildog.

I have proven beyond doubt to everyone that you mislead them in relation to Islam and what is written in the Quran.


Old Post 06-08-2004 10:12 AM
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devildog
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post #117  quote:

Are you stupid or what? Do you understand that there are several translations of the Qu'ran? Do you get that? When quoting from the Qur?an and Hadith, I have elected to use a blended translation. No language transfers perfectly, as Dekka has pointed out?one word to another. Five of my twelve translations of the Qur?an were combined to create the most accurate conveyance of the message possible. And for the last time, insertions within parenthesis (like this) were added by the Arabic translators, not me, to fill in missing words or to clarify the text.

The references were derived from English translations of the following ancient Islamic manuscripts. I encourage you to purchase and read them. The Sirat Rasul Allah was written by Ibn Ishaq in 750 A.D. It was edited and abridged by Ibn Hisham in 830 and translated by Alfred Guillaume under the title, The Life of Muhammad in 1955 by Oxford Press. The History of al-Tabari was written by Abu Muhammad bin al-Tabari between 870 and 920 A.D. His monumental work was translated and published in 1987 through 1997 by the State University of New York Press. I usually quote from volumes I, II, VI, VII, VIII, and IX. Al-Bukhari?s Hadith, titled: Sahih Al-Bukhari and The True Traditions was collected by Imam Bukhari in 850 A.D. I have used the collector?s original nomenclature because the only printed English translation (Publisher-Maktaba Dar-us-Salam, Translator-Muhammad Khan) was abridged and erroneously numbered. Finally, I recommend that you acquire at least three of the following Qur?an translations: Ahmed Ali, Pikthal, Noble by Muhsin Khan, Yusuf Ali, or Shakir. The oldest Qur?an fragments date to around 725 A.D.?a century after they were first recited.

Speaking of the Qur?an, like I said, I encourage you to buy several because translations differ. I feel it most appropriate to combine five into a blended version for the purpose of communicating the nuances of an ancient, and little understood, language into contemporary English. These include: Ahmed Ali, Pikthal, Noble by Khan, Yusuf Ali, and Shakir. One really has to correct Allah?s grammar, prune his unruly repetitions, and try to identify many of his dangling modifiers. There are so many missing and meaningless words, I have left within parenthesis the additions Arabic translators made because without them Allah?s message is hopelessly muddled. Fortunately, by ordering the Qur?an chronologically, and by setting it in the context of the Islamic Sunnah, I believe its message has never been as clear as it is here.

Anything else, Raven, or can we move on?
PS, I love it when you Muslims say Again you lie or you keep lying but you have given NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO proof. Both you and TWBR are humorous.It is obvious that you have very limited knowledge of Islam. But you speak as if you do You have no clue as to how the Qu'ran was revealed, or passed down. You are ignorant of Allah promise of a brothel in paradise, and obviously you have never even read the Qu'ran( at least not more than 1 translations). It is you raven, that is a joke. Mix in some knowledge, would ya?


Old Post 06-08-2004 01:45 PM
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devildog
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post #118  quote:

quote:
raven200 said this in post #116 :
Ok again you keep lying and making mistakes:

Yet, you are unable to present one.

In relation to what you have written:

For the above Quote you have again got the verse wrong, and on top of that no where in the quran is thier mention of intoxicants, that will be given to us in heaven.

076:005

[COLOR=blue]076:005
Pickthall- Lo! the righteous shall drink of a cup whereof the mixture is of Kafur,

Yusuf Ali- As to the Righteous, they shall drink of a Cup (of Wine) mixed with Kafur, -

Shakir- Surely the righteous shall drink of a cup the admixture of which is camphor

Sher Ali- But the virtuous shall drink of a cup, tempered with camphor -

Khalifa- As for the virtuous, they will drink from cups spiced with nectar.

Palmer - Verily, the righteous shall drink of a cup tempered with Kafur,

Sale- But the just shall drink of a cup [of wine], mixed with [the water of] Cafur,

Rodwell- But a wine cup tempered at the camphor fountain the just shall quaff:

There are 8 translations for ya. I didn't molest them at all. The arab translators had to input the words in the parenthesis for the reasons I have already mentioned. But maybe they have it wrong and Raven has it right.



This I can prove with the three translation you yourself printed earliar:

What about all the scriptures I provided that describe the rivers of wine in Paradise?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Even for this you have given the wrong verse: Also adding you own little bit about the wine.

You are thick!

Thiers no point in putting the word "wine" in brackets now, what you did in an earlier quote that I pointed out to everyone, you had clearly changed the word, no bracket no nothing, you had attempted to change a whole sentence.

You hav'nt even bothered answering me why you are changing the translation into your own words.

I have already been over this several times. Pay attention! Those words are by Arab translators.

People who want to see what a liar devildog is go back to post #111 and everything will be obvious. You can also see how he asks me in post #106 how he is wrong and how he is adding words into the translation of the Quran, and yet he gives further down in the same quote the correct translation which proves that he does add extra words.

If you would have read the very next post, you would be a little more intelligent.

I'm not going to bother with you anymore devildog.

I don't blame you. Run Forest, run!

I have proven beyond doubt to everyone that you mislead them in relation to Islam and what is written in the Quran.


Does anyone else feel this way? If so tell me.



Old Post 06-08-2004 02:36 PM
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TWBR
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post #119  quote:

C'mon DevilDog, i replied to your claims with good information, now prove me wrong.

Old Post 06-08-2004 05:51 PM
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raven200
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post #120  quote:

By calling me thick or stupid does'nt show that you are correct, what your doing now is trying to change the subject.

You keep asking muslims -- how is it that you are lying and how is it that you are changing words.

Now that you've been proven to be amending quotes, all you can resort to is calling of names and attempting to change the subject.

The Quotes you gave were of the wrong verse, you hav'nt even bothered answering that, and you still have not answered me as to why in relation to your post #106, the translation you have given for:

056.018
YUSUFALI: With goblets, (shining) beakers, and cups (filled) out of clear-flowing fountains:
PICKTHAL: With bowls and ewers and a cup from a pure spring
SHAKIR: With goblets and ewers and a cup of pure drink;

Is different from what you have written in your quote in red in the same post #106??

The issue was not in relation to where wine is mentioned, the issue is that in that specific quote you have added your own extra bit about "sparkling wine", wheres if you can do such a change in one quote you most definately have done so in others.

TWBR ---- No point in having a discussion with someone who does'nt know how to use quotes or present accurate information.
You have let yourself down Devildog, your arguments are proven to be worthless because your Quotes have been tampered with and ultimately many times you can't even get the verse correct from where you get your quote!!


Old Post 06-08-2004 06:42 PM
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