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nameless
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post #91  quote:

Alright thanx!!

Old Post 03-10-2004 09:50 PM
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j.p.s.
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wow post #92  quote:

quote:
Neither is anyone else on here who supports gay rights and advancements in our society. Relax and have a cookie.



I do support advancemnets in our society, just not when it means forcing part of society to change it's religous beliefs.

you talked earlier about seperation of church and state mean while that's not what is happening by the government being forced to change the law. If there was true seperation the government wouldn't be harrassed into this change.

mmmmmmmmmmmmm cookies!

can i have milk too? PWEASE!?!?


Old Post 03-10-2004 11:17 PM
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mystic
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Re: wow post #93  quote:

quote:
j.p.s. said this in post #92 :



I do support advancemnets in our society, just not when it means forcing part of society to change it's religous beliefs.



But people dont have the same beliefs....this is a nation of diversity....not everyone follows the same religion, etc....etc..

In reality....isnt it the Christian society forcing their beliefs on the rest of the world??

Seems that way to me!


Old Post 03-10-2004 11:55 PM
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chodder
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post #94  quote:

Technically yes! I have Jehovah witnesses coming to my house bugging me for money and giving me pamphlets. Some times I don?t even answer the door just because it?s an annoyance and I don?t want to have to stand there while they gibber jabber about religion. I am not a religious person and for me to stand their having to listen to them is dreadful. They are in a way forcing their religion on me and I just want to close the door in their face but it?s rude. I am a very nice person and would never think of doing it. So mystic ? you are right that religion is somewhat forced upon us.

Old Post 03-11-2004 12:00 AM
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chelktty
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Re: wow post #95  quote:

quote:
j.p.s. said this in post #92 :

I do support advancemnets in our society, just not when it means forcing part of society to change it's religous beliefs.

you talked earlier about seperation of church and state mean while that's not what is happening by the government being forced to change the law. If there was true seperation the government wouldn't be harrassed into this change.

J.P., the government didn't change anything in the church! It didn't force the church to accept and award authority to the gay bishop. He was voted into his position by the parishoners . The government is not forcing you or anyone else to change your religious beliefs. Nor is the bishop forcing you or anyone else to change your religious beliefs. You still have the right to worship God and interpret the Bible any way that you want. (Again, see freedom of religion) What happens in other churches in other states has absolutely no effect whatsoever to your daily life or faith. If you disapprove of a gay bishop or priest, don't go to that church, don't donate to that congregation and don't get involved in any of their charity events. You have the right to disassociate yourself from the gay community and gay churches. It doesn't impede on your rights in any way.

mmmmmmmmmmmmm cookies!

can i have milk too? PWEASE!?!?

Yes, but we're all out of chocolate chip, you'll have to settle for oatmeal raisin and skim milk.


Old Post 03-11-2004 01:31 AM
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outsider
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post #96  quote:

I am only going to post the beginning of this article, chodder made me think of it. The link is here if you want to read the whole thing.

http://www.citybeat.com/2004-02-18/editorial.shtml

Defense of Decency

By John Fox


A few weeks ago I came home to find some fliers wedged into my front door. They were promoting God as well as a specific denomination of Christianity.

It's certainly not the first time I've found such literature on my property. And I can recall three or four times in the 10 years I've been a homeowner in the city of Cincinnati when representatives of this and other Christian organizations knocked on my door and engaged me in conversation designed to introduce me to their lifestyle.

These folks have chosen to follow a Christian behavior, and that's great. I'm happy for them. It might bother me a bit to get solicited on my own front steps, but I'm not offended that they appear uninvited and unannounced.

Not once in the past 10 years, however, has a gay person knocked on my door and tried to convince me to consider his or her lifestyle. Never.

Yet, if you believe the rightwing political machine, gays are out to destroy everything we hold dear in the United States. If not checked and controlled, the vast gay agenda would infiltrate our homes, our schools, our churches. We'd be powerless to resist them.

Gays want rights! Can you believe it? And they want to get married! What's next, dogs and cats living together?


Old Post 03-11-2004 01:39 AM
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chelktty
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post #97  quote:

Awesome article Outsider! I took the time to read the whole thing...it's well worth the time of taking a gander. Thanks for sharing!

Old Post 03-11-2004 01:52 AM
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Staff
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post #98  quote:

hmm...that really makes you think don't it? as a christian, i try to follow what the bible says, so for me, being gay is wrong, however that doesn't mean i should go around bashing them. if they want to sin, thats they're choice, and there really isn't a lot i can do about...thats my opinion any way....

Old Post 03-11-2004 02:30 AM
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chelktty
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post #99  quote:

Shadow thanks for the input. We don't agree, but I respect your opinion.

Old Post 03-11-2004 03:04 AM
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nameless
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post #100  quote:

quote:
Shadow Stalker said this in post #98 :
hmm...that really makes you think don't it? as a christian, i try to follow what the bible says, so for me, being gay is wrong, however that doesn't mean i should go around bashing them. if they want to sin, thats they're choice, and there really isn't a lot i can do about...thats my opinion any way....


I agree with you....thats like me


Old Post 03-11-2004 03:29 AM
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j.p.s.
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mmmmmmmmmm oatmeal post #101  quote:

quote:
Yes, but we're all out of chocolate chip, you'll have to settle for oatmeal raisin and skim milk.


I love oatmeal rasisin cookies, but skim milk yuck no thanks!!!


quote:
What happens in other churches in other states has absolutely no effect whatsoever to your daily life or faith. If you disapprove of a gay bishop or priest, don't go to that church, don't donate to that congregation and don't get involved in any of their charity events. You have the right to disassociate yourself from the gay community and gay churches. It doesn't impede on your rights in any way.


I disagree on that it doe's affect my life if it didn't i wouldn't be here debating this topic, further more to accept a sinner in a position of that teaches children is wrong in my belief. Lastly acceptance of this is what will gradually destroy this religion, ok a gay bishop is fine next week two is ok and so on till all the rules become more like guidlines as people would say, i would no sooner accept a criminal as my bishop as i would a gay man.

damn i always come on here after i go to kung-fu or work out and get hungry with all the talk of cookies and cake :P STOP!!!!!!!!!


Old Post 03-11-2004 04:05 AM
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chelktty
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Re: mmmmmmmmmm oatmeal post #102  quote:

quote:
j.p.s. said this in post #101 :


I love oatmeal rasisin cookies, but skim milk yuck no thanks!!!

I was only kidding about the milk, I love oatmeal raisin too, but around here we're big fans of whole milk!

I disagree on that it doe's affect my life if it didn't i wouldn't be here debating this topic,

I think you're confusing what effects your life with the issues you feel passionately about. There is a significant difference. I'm not doubting your claim here, just asking you to explain precisely how the allowance of a gay bishop effects your day to day life and faith. I don't mean your faith in the church, I mean your faith in God.

further more to accept a sinner in a position of that teaches children is wrong in my belief.

Indeed it may be wrong in your belief and faith in your interpretation of the Bible and God. So don't raise your children in that church or community. But you cannot expect the entire nation to fold their religious interpretations to your will and beliefs. You wouldn't want the gay bishop to force you to view your interpretations of the bible differently. (I'm sure he's not banging on your door declaring that your non-acceptance of him is an abomination.)

Lastly acceptance of this is what will gradually destroy this religion,

How? When so many other so called "Christian" sects have defaced the name of Christianity before now? THIS is the straw that breaks the camel's back? Come on now...there are many more atrocities that have been carried out in the name and sake of Christianity than that of homosexuality.

ok a gay bishop is fine next week two is ok and so on till all the rules become more like guidlines as people would say, i would no sooner accept a criminal as my bishop as i would a gay man.

I think you're misinterpreting the use of religion entirely. It doesn't matter if a Bishop, preacher, priest or pope is gay. It's what you believe, (Within the books or interpretations) that counts. Your relationship with God is directly with God and her alone. Your faith does not rely souly in the church. The church, (Any church) is and should be used merely as a guide to help you define your relationship with God.
Example: A man lynches a black man and a gay man in the same day, justifying his actions with his interpretation of the Bible, all the while singing the praises of his Christian based Church. Does this action of a self proclaimed Christian, (a member of your faith) dequalify or force you to change your beliefs? No. Because your interpretation and belief doesn't justify such sick deeds. So how then, does a person who's gay and holding an authorative position within a church effect your religion, belief structure, faith and most importantly, your personal relationship with God?

damn i always come on here after i go to kung-fu or work out and get hungry with all the talk of cookies and cake :P STOP!!!!!!!!!

Then I shouldn't tell you that tonight for dinner I sliced up barbeque rotisserie chicken and tossed it with tortellini alfredo.


Old Post 03-11-2004 04:55 AM
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j.p.s.
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damn you chel..! post #103  quote:

quote:
I was only kidding about the milk, I love oatmeal raisin too, but around here we're big fans of whole milk!


here whole milk is called homo, milk i went to my uncles in the states and i got the dirtiest look for saying "i want homo milk".

quote:
I think you're confusing what effects your life with the issues you feel passionately about. There is a significant difference. I'm not doubting your claim here, just asking you to explain precisely how the allowance of a gay bishop effects your day to day life and faith. I don't mean your faith in the church, I mean your faith in God.


I don't go to church i have no religous background for this very reason, if a church says one thing is a sin then accepts it within it's ranks it's just not a solid fondation i would want my faith to be based around. Don't preach one thing then do another i'm not going to join and become another hippocrit instead i choose to view the world itself as a giant church and i will respect the rules he set because they make alot of sense anyway. The fact that his "house" has deteriorated to this point makes me sick.

quote:
Indeed it may be wrong in your belief and faith in your interpretation of the Bible and God. So don't raise your children in that church or community. But you cannot expect the entire nation to fold their religious interpretations to your will and beliefs. You wouldn't want the gay bishop to force you to view your interpretations of the bible differently.


why not ME ME ME...

quote:
How? When so many other so called "Christian" sects have defaced the name of Christianity before now? THIS is the straw that breaks the camel's back? Come on now...there are many more atrocities that have been carried out in the name and sake of Christianity than that of homosexuality.


I agree i don't accept those either if they could be eliminated from the church too i would have them removed. WOW we agree, for me the the fact that for centries pedophilla has gone on in the church with one cover up after the other is worse than a gay bishop but i've choosen to be disgusted by everything not this one issue. I don't like how the pope did everythig but support the german during WW2 in the mass slaughter of jews, also another area that disgusts me more so than this gay bishop not even going to get into the many holy wars. lest we not mention the torture of native americans in our not so accient history tearing families apart and making a once proud people beleave they were nothing but godless savages till they "saw the light" makes me want to puke.

quote:
(I'm sure he's not banging on your door declaring that your non-acceptance of him is an abomination.)


i'm not banging on his door am I? what have i gotten' for voicing my opinion on the matter, pretty much called a bigot and supporter of the KKK. wow god forbid we disagree ofn something you people take seriously.

quote:
I think you're misinterpreting the use of religion entirely.


agreed, but cmm... isn't the percher, pope, reveren, preist, guy with book infront of large cross, the person that teaches us what god expects from us? what is the proper relationship between us and god? what he expects from us? why would i go to that bishop to ask for forgiveness, when he basks in sins that his ownreligion is against? Whether there is a passage that says it or not it's the belief of the leaders of the aglican church that being gay is a sin, he's done nothing more than make a mockery of our religion.

quote:
Then I shouldn't tell you that tonight for dinner I sliced up barbeque rotisserie chicken and tossed it with tortellini alfredo.


omg! sweet torture...i'll agree with you on everything just marry me and keep those meals a comin'!!!

So sadam i, i'm becoming a chef, i go to school and cook elaborate meals but i can't be bothered to cook for myself at home.


Old Post 03-11-2004 05:29 AM
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chelktty
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Re: damn you chel..! post #104  quote:

quote:
j.p.s. said this in post #103 :


here whole milk is called homo, milk i went to my uncles in the states and i got the dirtiest look for saying "i want homo milk".

I never would have related homosexuals with homogenized simply because they share the same prefix. I think it's interesting and noteworthy that you made that joke.

I don't go to church i have no religous background for this very reason, if a church says one thing is a sin then accepts it within it's ranks it's just not a solid fondation i would want my faith to be based around.

I think that as a follower of a diety, you're making the right decision not to let an establishment rule your journey of faith. Way to be a free thinker!

Don't preach one thing then do another i'm not going to join and become another hippocrit instead i choose to view the world itself as a giant church and i will respect the rules he set because they make alot of sense anyway. The fact that his "house" has deteriorated to this point makes me sick.

The world as a giant church...enlighten me of your thoughts on that. I don't mean that sarcastically, really...I mean ? have a thought on the world being a giant church. I'd love to hear your perspective.

why not ME ME ME...

Wha??

I agree i don't accept those either if they could be eliminated from the church too i would have them removed. WOW we agree, for me the the fact that for centries pedophilla has gone on in the church with one cover up after the other is worse than a gay bishop but i've choosen to be disgusted by everything not this one issue.

I believe you when you say that pedophelia disgusts you. It should disgust everyone. What I have a problem with is when the stories broke about molestation & pedofiles in the church, I never saw such an outrage as I there is now about gays being bishops or being allowed to marry. Suddenly one gay bishop is more of an atrocity and abomination to a particular religion's diety than the thousands of charges of molestation by the hands of a priest?

I don't like how the pope did everythig but support the german during WW2 in the mass slaughter of jews, also another area that disgusts me more so than this gay bishop not even going to get into the many holy wars. lest we not mention the torture of native americans in our not so accient history tearing families apart and making a once proud people beleave they were nothing but godless savages till they "saw the light" makes me want to puke.

Makes me sick too. Precisely why I argue for the equality of all mankind.

i'm not banging on his door am I? what have i gotten' for voicing my opinion on the matter, pretty much called a bigot and supporter of the KKK. wow god forbid we disagree ofn something you people take seriously.

I never called you a bigot or a member of the KKK. I made a reference to Nameless for which I later apologized thanks to your observance. God doesn't forbid you to disagree about anything. It's called free will. But addressing the comment, I sould have to argue that you also take this "something" as serious, otherwise we wouldn't be having this banter.

agreed, but cmm... isn't the percher, pope, reveren, preist, guy with book infront of large cross, the person that teaches us what god expects from us ?

Isn't it even remotely possible for you to accept that there are people out there who read the Bible, follow, practice and preach Jesus's word, that DON'T share the same interpretation of what God expects from us than you?

what is the proper relationship between us and god? what he expects from us? why would i go to that bishop to ask for forgiveness, when he basks in sins that his ownreligion is against?

If you don't go to church, why would you ask the gay bishop for forgiveness? Isn't that an issue you should work out with God yourself?

Whether there is a passage that says it or not it's the belief of the leaders of the aglican church that being gay is a sin, he's done nothing more than make a mockery of our religion.

Oh, I'm sorry, you're serious... Let me decifer, Whether there's a passage that says it or not, they say they believe that way because of the Bible. So it's justified discrimination based on the idea that a church establishment has. Not mattering whether or not there is any true reasoning behind believing that. BECAUSE they believe in that way in fact, is precisely why the parishoners who voted for the bishop's inception should be ignored...because the leaders of the angelican church believe it's a sin, therefore it must be so.
The Parishoner's voted for the gay bishop. The leaders blessed his position. How is he making a mockery if the people chose his inception?


omg! sweet torture...i'll agree with you on everything just marry me and keep those meals a comin'!!!

So sadam i, i'm becoming a chef, i go to school and cook elaborate meals but i can't be bothered to cook for myself at home.

I'm spoken for baby, but I'll drop you a few hints on super simple home cooked meals.


Old Post 03-11-2004 06:49 AM
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post #105  quote:

quote:
The world as a giant church...enlighten me of your thoughts on that. I don't mean that sarcastically, really...I mean ? have a thought on the world being a giant church. I'd love to hear your perspective.


Honestly it's hard to explain but i just see it this way, if god created tha planet and god see and knows all. why do i have to go to a church to seek forgiveness from someone who pretty much pretends to be a representative of god. How will praying and doing hail mary's make up a wrong? personally i'f also rather give money to the poor by buying someone in need a meal every sunday then go to a church and give some fat priest money that has been shown to be just wasted. I also think in a way that maybe god mean't earth itself is the house of god not a church i donno really how to explain it there is alot of reasoning behind the way i feel. If i can come up with the right words i'll try explain myself better.

quote:
Suddenly one gay bishop is more of an atrocity and abomination to a particular religion's diety than the thousands of charges of molestation by the hands of a priest?


Maybe down there it's treated that way but, up here the people were pissed and still are. A church here was set on fire because no justice was found....alll that happen was the priest was sent to another church, and the next thing that happend was it was burning and alot of angry people watched. I don't see anyone burning the gay bishops church god forbid it happens.

quote:
Isn't it even remotely possible for you to accept that there are people out there who read the Bible, follow, practice and preach Jesus's word, that DON'T share the same interpretation of what God expects from us than you?


Yes i understand what your saying, he can preach jesus's word, but hey how about this....why doesn't he build his own church with his beleavers and dissasociate himself from the anglican church instead?

quote:
I'm spoken for baby, but I'll drop you a few hints on super simple home cooked meals.


It's ok...i'm spoken for too, se makes great kraft dinner..no word of a lie.

quote:
I never called you a bigot or a member of the KKK. I made a reference to Nameless for which I later apologized thanks to your observance. God doesn't forbid you to disagree about anything. It's called free will. But addressing the comment, I sould have to argue that you also take this "something" as serious, otherwise we wouldn't be having this banter.


A few of the things you've said have insinuated i would support the kkk. not to mention a comment about if i would accept people with shaved heads and black nike's in my church. You may not of said in but you insinuated. Maybe i am a bt sensitive on the subject i live in a place where there is pretty much no racisim and to be put in the same boat as those groups is worse than pretty much any insult that can be made. It's not as much a part of our life as it is down there so not used to dealing with it. If i'm over reacting i do appologise, guess i got to get used to it.

quote:
The Parishoner's voted for the gay bishop. The leaders blessed his position. How is he making a mockery if the people chose his inception?


By being there and accepting the position to begin with, if there in such mass support of this bishop they will stick around if he were to seperate himself from and anglican faith.

But honestly your cool, i like to be argued with..... what's wrong with he rest of you people!?!?!?!


Old Post 03-11-2004 07:31 AM
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chelktty
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post #106  quote:

quote:
j.p.s. said this in post #105 :

Honestly it's hard to explain but i just see it this way, if god created tha planet and god see and knows all. why do i have to go to a church to seek forgiveness from someone who pretty much pretends to be a representative of god. How will praying and doing hail mary's make up a wrong? personally i'f also rather give money to the poor by buying someone in need a meal every sunday then go to a church and give some fat priest money that has been shown to be just wasted. I also think in a way that maybe god mean't earth itself is the house of god not a church i donno really how to explain it there is alot of reasoning behind the way i feel. If i can come up with the right words i'll try explain myself better.

I feel the same way. I find God in the mountains, sunsets & children's faces. I don't think that God is something that can be found in a book. I think that the Bible is man's interpretation fo God's will, but knowing that man is fallable, I think he allowed his own prejudices to influence the writing as well. I don't go to church, but when I visit church with a friend, I'll submit a small contribution. I operate on the Homer Simpson approach to church when he sat down with God one Sunday and said "I just don't see why I have to get up early on my day off to go to a place and listen to someone tell me that I'm going to hell."

Maybe down there it's treated that way but, up here the people were pissed and still are. A church here was set on fire because no justice was found....alll that happen was the priest was sent to another church, and the next thing that happend was it was burning and alot of angry people watched. I don't see anyone burning the gay bishops church god forbid it happens.

I think it's an atrocity that the church has enabled child molesting priests to continue destroying the lives and trust of children. I think it's a shame that the angry mob burned the church, (Only because the congregations of that church had nothing to do with the priest's crime) but I understand the symbolism of destroying the house which allows such incidents to happen.

Yes i understand what your saying, he can preach jesus's word, but hey how about this....why doesn't he build his own church with his beleavers and dissasociate himself from the anglican church instead?

Interesting question, but why should he have to disassociate himself from that particular faith? That is the faith that led him to the path of God. He has the approval of his parishoners and fellow bishops and ministers. (Mind you, not ALL of them approve, but most of them do, otherwise he wouldn't be in the position in the first place) Having found God through that religion, it would make sense for him to work within that same religion. You don't see born again Christians preaching and teaching Judaism, right?

A few of the things you've said have insinuated i would support the kkk. not to mention a comment about if i would accept people with shaved heads and black nike's in my church. You may not of said in but you insinuated. Maybe i am a bt sensitive on the subject i live in a place where there is pretty much no racisim and to be put in the same boat as those groups is worse than pretty much any insult that can be made. It's not as much a part of our life as it is down there so not used to dealing with it. If i'm over reacting i do appologise, guess i got to get used to it.

The comment about shaved heads and black nike's was actually in your "Why don't you worship me?" thread. In following with the fun in there, I was making a reference to the Heaven's Gate Cult in California who's followers would shave their heads. Each member wore black nike's too. Sorry if you misunderstood the tone of my comment. I also apologize if you think I insinuated that you support the KKK, in truth, I didn't. I was making a comparison in an attempt to change your perspective on the issue. I don't think you or anyone else in here supports the KKK or their idiotic notions. I think the people in here have a higher level of sophistication than that. The comparison was made as an example; some in here have said that the man should not be a bishop, and insinuated that he's not a Christian as being gay is against God's will, according to the observer's interpretation. I pointed out that the KKK too claims to be of Christian faith, yet their crimes would indicate otherwise. Why then, is society not demanding that KKK members disassociate themselves from Christianity? Anyway, that's the point I was trying to make. Sorry for the confusion.

By being there and accepting the position to begin with, if there in such mass support of this bishop they will stick around if he were to seperate himself from and anglican faith.

But again, given that he has massive support, why should he have to give up his position and start a new church? What would he call the religion if he had to give up the anglican faith or at least the namesake of it? He would still interpret the Bible the same way. He would still preach the same way. So what's the need of giving it a different name?
But honestly your cool, i like to be argued with..... what's wrong with he rest of you people!?!?!?!

I think you're cool too, I've enjoyed sparring with you these last few days. I think it feeds the mind and soul to have our thoughts and opinions challenged by an opposing view. Thanks for the go around!


Old Post 03-11-2004 02:25 PM
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Barbed wire
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post #107  quote:

chelktty:

It's a funny thing that the Bible was translated into other languages in the same way as into English.
France, Germany and other countries punished legally for homosexuality as well as the British did. And the reason for their practice was the Bible which was understood like the British understood it.
So, the places in Bible you've mentioned do condemn male homosexuality.
If you a Christian you should follow the Bible and think homosexuality to be a sin. Otherwise you're not a Christian. If a bishop is gay, the whole Chourch isn't Christian. Anyway, there are sins of different degrees... homosexuality isn't the worst.


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chelktty
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post #108  quote:

quote:
Barbed wire said this in post #107 :
chelktty:

It's a funny thing that the Bible was translated into other languages in the same way as into English.
France, Germany and other countries punished legally for homosexuality as well as the British did. And the reason for their practice was the Bible which was understood like the British understood it.
So, the places in Bible you've mentioned do condemn male homosexuality.

No where in the Bible does it clearly define that fornication between people of the same sex is a condemnation. It is all about how one chooses to interpret the words.
http://www.truluck.com/html/six_bible_passages.html
Genesis 19:5: "Bring them out to us that we may know them."
Author's Note: "Know" simply means know! No hint at homosexuality exists in the original Hebrew. No later Bible references to Sodom ever mention homosexuality as the sin of Sodom. Many modern translations add words to the text to create the lie that the people of Sodom were homosexual.

Leviticus 18:22:
"You shall not lie with a male as those who lie with a female; it is an abomination."
Leviticus 20:13:
"If a man lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination and they shall surely be put to death."
Author's Note: Both of these verses refer not to homosexuals but to heterosexuals who took part in the baal fertility rituals in order to guarantee good crops and healthy flocks. No hint at sexual orientation or homosexuality is even implied. The word abomination in Leviticus was used for anything that was considered to be religiously unclean or associated with idol worship.
Because these two verses in Leviticus (18:22 and 20:13) have been used more than any other Bible texts to condemn and reject gay and lesbian people, the following material is given to help you think objectively about traditional abusive use of the Bible regarding homosexuals.
The use of Leviticus to condemn and reject homosexuals is obviously a hypocritical selective use of the Bible against gays and lesbians. Nobody today tries to keep the laws in Leviticus. Look at Leviticus 11:1-12, where all unclean animals are forbidden as food, including rabbits, pigs, and shellfish, such as oysters, shrimp, lobsters, crabs, clams, and others that are called an "abomination." Leviticus 20:25 demands that "you are to make a distinction between the clean and unclean animal and between the unclean and clean bird; and you shall not make yourself an abomination by animal or by bird or by anything that creeps on the ground, which I have separated for you as unclean." You can eat some insects like locusts (grasshoppers), but not others.

Leviticus 12:1-8 declares that a woman is unclean for 33 days after giving birth to a boy and for 66 days after giving birth to a girl and goes on to demand that certain animals must be offered as a burnt offering and a sin offering for cleansing. Nobody today who claims to be a Christian tries to keep these laws, and few people even know about them! Why do you think that most people don't know about them?
Read Leviticus 23 to see the detailed regulations concerning "complete rest" on the Sabbath day and demands of animal sacrifices to be carried out according to exact instructions. Leviticus 18:19 forbids a husband from having sex with his wife during her menstrual period. Leviticus 19:19 forbids mixed breeding of various kinds of cattle, sowing various kinds of seeds in your field or wearing "a garment made from two kinds of material mixed together." Leviticus 19:27 demands that "you shall not round off the side-growth of your heads, nor harm the edges of your beard." The next verse forbids "tattoo marks on yourself." Most people do not even know that these laws are in the Bible and are demanded equally with all the others.
Why don't fundamentalists organize protests and picket seafood restaurants, oyster bars, church barbecue suppers, all grocery stores, barber shops, tattoo parlors, and stores that sell suits and dresses made of mixed wool, cotton, polyester, and other materials? All of these products and services are "abominations" in Leviticus. When have you heard a preacher condemn the demonic abomination of garments that are made of mixed fabrics?

Read what Jesus said in Matthew 7:1-5 about hypocrites who judge others. "Do not judge lest you be judged yourselves... Why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? ...You hypocrite!"
If you have been led to misuse Leviticus and other parts of the Bible in order to condemn and hate and reject people, you are on the wrong path. Jesus quoted only one passage from Leviticus: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." (19:18). Jesus used Leviticus to teach love. Many false teachers use Leviticus and other writings to condemn, humiliate and destroy. I know which approach seems truly Christian to me. Jesus never condemned homosexuals or even mentioned anything that could be taken as a reference to sexual orientation.


If you a Christian you should follow the Bible and think homosexuality to be a sin. Otherwise you're not a Christian. If a bishop is gay, the whole Chourch isn't Christian.

Ok so therefore all gays who are Christian are not really Christians and all Christians who support gays and reject the common INTERPRETATION of the Bible and instead choose to act more CHRIST LIKE in their attitudes and opinions of others, they too are not Christian? Wait...isn't that passing judgement on your fellow man?


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post #109  quote:

quote:
Ok so therefore all gays who are Christian are not really Christians and all Christians who support gays and reject the common INTERPRETATION of the Bible and instead choose to act more CHRIST LIKE in their attitudes and opinions of others, they too are not Christian? Wait...isn't that passing judgement on your fellow man?


although I believe homosexuality is a sin, I agree with this wholeheartedly. I mean, shoot, it's not like I'm perfect, and God is forgiving me. Why can't he forgive a homosexual too?


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post #110  quote:

quote:
Dekka00 said this in post #109 :


although I believe homosexuality is a sin, I agree with this wholeheartedly. I mean, shoot, it's not like I'm perfect, and God is forgiving me. Why can't he forgive a homosexual too?


Dekka00:

See Tim 1:9-10:
9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

So homosexuals may be Christians and Christians aren't people who don't sin. But Christians are meant to avoid sins. So the gay should accept that making love with a man is a sin ans so they should avoid it.

If a gay is a bishop, so this Church choose a sinner who isn't going to give the sin up to be it's leader.
There is a Christian practice for such cases:
- Other Churches quits their dialogue with such Church
- They think that the followers of that Church aren't baptised and aren't going to be saved
- The sacraments administered in that Church are fake.

Chelktty:

1. Genesis 19:5
The Hebrew word "yada" (to know) has also a meaning of "to have sex". It's used in Bible in this meaning ten times. e.g. Genesis 4:1, Genesis 4:17-25, Genesis 24:16, Genesis 38:26 1 Samuel 1:19 and more. It's not common practice in modern English to describe the process of sexual intercourse with a verb which has the direct meaning. There is a verb "to ****" but it's bad language and people don't use it in normal situations. Usually idioms are used e.g. "to make love", "to have sex". The same was in Hebrew: "and Elkanah knew Hannah his wife" instead of "and Elkanah ****ed Hannah his wife".

quote:
. . Sodom was a tiny fortress in the barren wasteland south of the Dead Sea. The only strangers that the people of Sodom ever saw were enemy tribes who wanted to destroy and take over their valuable fortress and the trade routes that it protected. Lot himself was an alien in their midst.

Because of this Sodomites went to question (to know) the two strangers.
Strange idea. If people came to question the two strangers why Lot offered them to have sex with his daughters? Surely, that wasn't the best means to stop worring about Sodom's security.

2. Malakoi and Arsenokoites (1 Corinthians 6:9 http://www.agape-biblia.org/biblia01/nz14/z1Kori06.htm) mean according to D-r John Stott:
- boys and men acting as women
- boys and men acting as men in gay sexual intercourse.
The word "malakoi" was also used to describe "feminity" of passive gays.

See also Greek Strong's Dictionary for those words.

3. Romans 1:26-27
Why do you think it's all about idolatry? I see now hint for this in this chapter.


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post #111  quote:

aren't priests supposed to take a vow of celibacy?

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post #112  quote:

quote:
aren't priests supposed to take a vow of celibacy?


Catholic yes but others now. Bishops anyway are monks everywhere and monks take the vow.
So it's a good point, Dekka00, gay bishop's case is strange because of this also...


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post #113  quote:

well if he's gay then he's gay, as long as he's not doing the deed after he takes the vows I don't see what the problem is.

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post #114  quote:

I fully agree.

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chelktty
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post #115  quote:

quote:
Barbed wire said this in post #110 :


See Tim 1:9-10:
9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

No where in this text does it pertain to homosexual behavior. That is a choice interpretation of yours to justify other interpretations against homosexuality.

So homosexuals may be Christians and Christians aren't people who don't sin. But Christians are meant to avoid sins. So the gay should accept that making love with a man is a sin ans so they should avoid it.

Again, say it with me... Only according to a particular INTERPRETATION of the bible. Nothing in the Bible says that homosexuality is a sin. There are passages that some choose to suggest it, but suggestions, like beauty and scandal, is in the eye of the beholder. How else does a rumor grow from something like; Susie and Bobby kissed after the dance to Susie and Bobby got a hotel room and did it after the dance. ?

Chelktty:

1. Genesis 19:5
The Hebrew word "yada" (to know) has also a meaning of "to have sex". It's used in Bible in this meaning ten times. e.g. Genesis 4:1, Genesis 4:17-25, Genesis 24:16, Genesis 38:26 1 Samuel 1:19 and more. It's not common practice in modern English to describe the process of sexual intercourse with a verb which has the direct meaning. There is a verb "to ****" but it's bad language and people don't use it in normal situations. Usually idioms are used e.g. "to make love", "to have sex". The same was in Hebrew: "and Elkanah knew Hannah his wife" instead of "and Elkanah ****ed Hannah his wife".

You're right on stating that it is not common practice to use particular language in the books of God. But you must recognize that not all interpretation automatically mean the same thing.
Now read Genesis 4:1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.
It that verse the English word 'knew' is the Hebrew word "yada" . Below you will find the definition of the Hebrew word 'yada'.
AV - know 645, known 105, knowledge 19, perceive 18, shew 17, tell 8,
wist 7, understand 7, certainly 7, acknowledge 6, acquaintance 6,
consider 6, declare 6, teach 5, misc 85; 947

1) to know
1a) (Qal)
1a1) to know
1a1a) to know, learn to know

1a1b) to perceive
1a1c) to perceive and see, find out and discern
1a1d) to discriminate, distinguish
1a1e) to know by experience
1a1f) to recognize, admit, acknowledge, confess
1a1g) to consider
1a2) to know, be acquainted with
1a3) to know (a person carnally) yada
1a4) to know how, be skilful in
1a5) to have knowledge, be wise
1b) (Niphal)
1b1) to be made known, be or become known, be revealed
1b2) to make oneself known
1b3) to be perceived
1b4) to be instructed
1c) (Piel) to cause to know
1d) (Poal) to cause to know


Because of this Sodomites went to question (to know) the two strangers.
Strange idea. If people came to question the two strangers why Lot offered them to have sex with his daughters? Surely, that wasn't the best means to stop worring about Sodom's security.

You're not familiar with the art of diversion? A man biting a woman's ear as he's deflowering her virginity, in an effort to distract the pain? Quite possible that it could have been a scenerio. But your preconceived notions about homosexuality prohibit you from accepting a different interpretation.


Old Post 03-14-2004 09:15 AM
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post #116  quote:

Chelktty:
quote:
No where in this text does it pertain to homosexual behavior. That is a choice interpretation of yours to justify other interpretations against homosexuality.


I quoted this text to show that homosexuals could be also saved along with other sinners, e.g. ungodly etc.

quote:
Nothing in the Bible says that homosexuality is a sin.

I don't agree with you here, see the case of "arsenokoites and malakoi". St. John Chrisostom thought those words were about gays and he was an ethnical Greek (IV century A.D.).

More, read Jude 1:7:
quote:
"Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh , are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."


So the hole story about Sodom looks like that:
1. God wanted to destroy Sodom for the sins of its dwellers;
2. Abraham asked God to test it first whether there were at least 10 righteous men;
3. God sent two angels who looked like men.
4. Sodomites immediately wanted to have sex with them. So they failed the test.
5. Sodom was destroyed.

quote:
going after strange flesh
indicates that the sin of Sodom was not in attempt of rape but in homosexuality.

Here's a KJV Bible with convinient references to original textes in Hebrew or Greek.
http://www.sacrednamebible.com/kjvstrongs/

quote:
You're not familiar with the art of diversion? A man biting a woman's ear as he's deflowering her virginity, in an effort to distract the pain? Quite possible that it could have been a scenerio. But your preconceived notions about homosexuality prohibit you from accepting a different interpretation.

Hm it's about causing pain in one part of body to distract one's attention from pain in another pain of body. Those things (two physical pains) are of similar nature, but offering sex to people worried if those two strangers are spyes.. It'd have hardly worked, because concern about security and sexual desire are different things.


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Post New Chapter in Gay Bishop Controversy post #117  quote:

by Steve Jordahl, correspondent

SUMMARY: More than 100 Ohio Episcopalians refuse to be confirmed under the authority of church leader who supported Gene Robinson's appointment.

Five retired Episcopal bishops crossed diocesan lines in Ohio over the weekend to confirm 110 people who refused to be confirmed by their own bishop -- because their own bishop voted for the consecration of Gene Robinson.

Robinson is the openly homosexual head of the Diocese of New Hampshire; his appointment was supported by Bishop J. Clark Grew II, head of the Diocese of Ohio.

The Rev. Roger Ames, rector of St. Luke's parish in Akron, said six Ohio congregations under Grew's authority operated outside that authority because the parishioners seeking confirmation "would not have been willing to be confirmed by somebody who's out of communion and who stands for a position that is so antithetical to biblical authority."

But Bishop Grew denied there is a problem in his diocese.

"There is no crisis in the diocese of Ohio except the one created by a group that hopes to hold on to attention that is slipping away as time passes," said R. Stephen Gracey, Grew's spokesman.

Cynthia Brust of the American Anglican Council disagreed, saying the Episcopal Church, USA is out of touch with its laity.

"I think it's a huge division," she said. "We hear horror stories, we hear pain. There's just been a tremendous outcry since (Robinson's consecration), and I believe that a majority of people in the pews in the Episcopal Church are up in arms about this."

Episcopal bishops across America will meet this weekend, with the issue of oversight topping their agenda. Ames said he hopes the discussions will end his parish's association with the Episcopal Church, USA.


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post #118  quote:

You see, it didn't violate the rights of those Episcopalians who refused to have the bishop confirm them because of his support of the gay bishop. They were confirmed by another authority in the church who shared their view and protest. It doesn't make them any less Episcopalian either that their faith has a gay bishop, they simply refuse to acknowledge him which is well within their rights.
So again, what's all the hoop-lah about wanting him to step down? If people can still be confirmed in that faith while exercising their right of protest against the gay bishop, where's the problem?


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maybe, maybe not post #119  quote:

on a grand scale it ovious isn't supported byt the rest of the aglicans, so why should the whole orangization accept what the one church is willing to accept?

you can't expect the majority to change so the minority can be excepted.


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post #120  quote:

It's a split. It has different outcomes. But this Church's become weaker now.

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