Chat or Talk in the INReview Discussion Forum Chat or Talk in the INReview Discussion Forum
 
register chat members links refer search home
INReview INReview > The Scuttlebutt Lounge > Philosophy & Religion > A Gay Bishop....what's This World Coming To!?!?
Search this Thread:
Pages (8):  [1] 23 » Last »   Print Version | Email Page | Bookmark | Subscribe to Thread
Author
Thread Post New Thread   
nameless
Enthusiast

offline
Registered: Jun 2003
Local time: 12:44 AM
Location: Toronto Ontario
Posts: 72

Lightbulb A Gay Bishop....what's This World Coming To!?!? post #1  quote:



What do you think about going to church to be led by a gay Bishop!?!?

Personally I think it's WRONG!!!

The bible condemns homosexuality as an abomination against God You can't have a gay/lesbian leader.
God destroyed a city called Sodom because of homosexuality!!!!!! So why would it be all good for a gay man to be a bishop!?!?!?!?!?!? :/ It is a SIN and if they allow him to be a bishop this society will be more messed up!!


I watched it on the news today and a lady said to the bishop "I'm so proud of you" wtf it's like going up to a murderer or rapist and saying "I'm so proud of you" even though raping and murdering is worse it's still a sin and we should all be disgusted!!

homosexuality is a sexual preference, It's a sickness in my book just like rapists and ppl who lust over kids(they are sick!!)

Things like this is like the Devils way of <REMOVED> up society

Go see The Pasion Of Christ, if u havn't already!!


Old Post 03-08-2004 03:31 AM
Click here to Send nameless a Private Message Find more posts by nameless Add nameless to your buddy list Click Here to Ignore nameless REPORT this Post to a ModeratorNOMINATE this Post for Reward Points Reply w/Quote

Staff
gaboman
What Would Jack Do?

offline
Registered: Aug 2003
Local time: 04:44 PM
Location: The land, the land down under.
Posts: 12701

post #2  quote:

Woah woah, slow down there

First of all, you probably should've posted this in the Culture and Society or Religion Forums... either wouldn't been better than here

Secondly, no one will bother replying to you if you continue to spout off such stupidity.

Okay, maybe I will


Old Post 03-08-2004 03:41 AM
Click here to Send gaboman a Private Message Find more posts by gaboman Add gaboman to your buddy list Reply w/Quote

Staff
Dekka00
Administrator

offline
Registered: Sep 2003
Local time: 03:44 AM
Location: Virginia
Posts: 11592

post #3  quote:

the better question to ask is, what is the church coming to when they have priests and bishops in the first place?

Old Post 03-08-2004 03:49 AM
Click here to Send Dekka00 a Private Message View Dekka00's Journal Visit Dekka00's homepage! Find more posts by Dekka00 Add Dekka00 to your buddy list Reply w/Quote

chodder
INRH4xx0r^

offline
Registered: Jul 2003
Local time: 03:44 AM
Location: LV-426
Posts: 7054

post #4  quote:

D'oh!

Old Post 03-08-2004 03:50 AM
Click here to Send chodder a Private Message Visit chodder's homepage! Find more posts by chodder Add chodder to your buddy list Click Here to Ignore chodder REPORT this Post to a ModeratorNOMINATE this Post for Reward Points Reply w/Quote

Staff
gaboman
What Would Jack Do?

offline
Registered: Aug 2003
Local time: 04:44 PM
Location: The land, the land down under.
Posts: 12701

post #5  quote:

You know, he's got a point about the murders and rapists I feel the same about priests in general, as a matter of fact... Bishops included... Truck drivers too, now that I think of it.

Old Post 03-08-2004 03:58 AM
Click here to Send gaboman a Private Message Find more posts by gaboman Add gaboman to your buddy list Reply w/Quote

Staff
Dekka00
Administrator

offline
Registered: Sep 2003
Local time: 03:44 AM
Location: Virginia
Posts: 11592

post #6  quote:

oh look, he's canadian.

I don't know why I took him seriously at all


Old Post 03-08-2004 04:02 AM
Click here to Send Dekka00 a Private Message View Dekka00's Journal Visit Dekka00's homepage! Find more posts by Dekka00 Add Dekka00 to your buddy list Reply w/Quote

chodder
INRH4xx0r^

offline
Registered: Jul 2003
Local time: 03:44 AM
Location: LV-426
Posts: 7054

post #7  quote:

So harsh... so very harsh... eh?

Old Post 03-08-2004 04:06 AM
Click here to Send chodder a Private Message Visit chodder's homepage! Find more posts by chodder Add chodder to your buddy list Click Here to Ignore chodder REPORT this Post to a ModeratorNOMINATE this Post for Reward Points Reply w/Quote

Staff
gaboman
What Would Jack Do?

offline
Registered: Aug 2003
Local time: 04:44 PM
Location: The land, the land down under.
Posts: 12701

post #8  quote:

too much dekka, too much

Old Post 03-08-2004 04:07 AM
Click here to Send gaboman a Private Message Find more posts by gaboman Add gaboman to your buddy list Reply w/Quote

nameless
Enthusiast

offline
Registered: Jun 2003
Local time: 12:44 AM
Location: Toronto Ontario
Posts: 72

post #9  quote:

Don't tell me where to post my topics!!!! Gaboman..........how is it stupidity??? a gay bishop is stupid....Are you gay!?!?!? is that why you don't like what I say!?!?
all i'm saying is that we all make sins, but a Bishop, who is supose to follow the steps of Jesus is a huge sinner and I don't think it is right!!!!! and God won't except it; when he comes for his children he'll leave those kind of ppl behind!!!


Old Post 03-08-2004 04:14 AM
Click here to Send nameless a Private Message Find more posts by nameless Add nameless to your buddy list Click Here to Ignore nameless REPORT this Post to a ModeratorNOMINATE this Post for Reward Points Reply w/Quote

nameless
Enthusiast

offline
Registered: Jun 2003
Local time: 12:44 AM
Location: Toronto Ontario
Posts: 72

post #10  quote:

And BTW everyone i'm FEMALE :/ and yeah i'm canadian so what!!!!!!! what the hell are u???

Old Post 03-08-2004 04:16 AM
Click here to Send nameless a Private Message Find more posts by nameless Add nameless to your buddy list Click Here to Ignore nameless REPORT this Post to a ModeratorNOMINATE this Post for Reward Points Reply w/Quote

j.p.s.
Veteran

offline
Registered: Mar 2004
Local time: 03:44 AM
Location: toronto
Posts: 368

Thumbs down stupidity..... post #11  quote:

This whole gay rights issue has become so ignorant it's not even funny. I understand there was a time when gays were treated horribly and maybe some still are but....now instead of them fighting for gay rights there fighting to take away ours. I think gay mariage is wrong but i'll get back to that , anybody in the church hierarchy is just as wrong and should be removed. Why should the beliefs of the many be changed by the few. I also think that the government should have no right to change laws to force a belief structure to change. But i don't blame the government or the people, i blame the church they have let there position be weakend to the point where they can't even defend the simpler of it's principles.

As for gay mariage i think the government should of taken a little more time and found a better comprimise in a form of union completely outside of the church.

Now i'm completely outside of the situation i don't go to church and i'm very iffy on the whole is there or isn't there a god i choose to keep my mind open to such things. I know it's easy to view me as a bigot or a homophobe but i honestly don't care what anyones sexual orientation is i just don't like governments <edited> on peoples beliefs so they can get the vote.

anyways that's all i got to say on the matter.......

(sorry for any spelling errors i'm to tired to care)


Last edited by Kookaburra on 03-08-2004 at 03:00 PM |
Old Post 03-08-2004 04:47 AM
Click here to Send j.p.s. a Private Message Find more posts by j.p.s. Add j.p.s. to your buddy list Click Here to Ignore j.p.s. REPORT this Post to a ModeratorNOMINATE this Post for Reward Points Reply w/Quote

Staff
gaboman
What Would Jack Do?

offline
Registered: Aug 2003
Local time: 04:44 PM
Location: The land, the land down under.
Posts: 12701

post #12  quote:

No I'm not gay nameless, though I don't know how it's your business (PS. See my signature, it says I'm straight...). It's just my personal conviction - though I wont say people who are opposed to homosexuality are evil or wrong or stupid... I can respect people who respect my opinion, or respect that people have differing opinions in such matters.

The reason why I don't like what you said is your ridiculous comments saying it's the same as murder or rape. That is the most absent minded thing I have ever heard. If you really want to discuss the issue, without insulting people or making stupid statements there's a few threads dedicated to the homosexual issue... If you just want to be an idiot, then just keep going on the way you are.


Old Post 03-08-2004 05:34 AM
Click here to Send gaboman a Private Message Find more posts by gaboman Add gaboman to your buddy list Reply w/Quote

Staff
gaboman
What Would Jack Do?

offline
Registered: Aug 2003
Local time: 04:44 PM
Location: The land, the land down under.
Posts: 12701

post #13  quote:

PS. I'm sorry for suggesting you post a topic in the appropriate place. In future I will be sure to mind my own business, lest I receive your horrible, horrible wrath...

Old Post 03-08-2004 05:50 AM
Click here to Send gaboman a Private Message Find more posts by gaboman Add gaboman to your buddy list Reply w/Quote

nameless
Enthusiast

offline
Registered: Jun 2003
Local time: 12:44 AM
Location: Toronto Ontario
Posts: 72

post #14  quote:

If you read the bible then you would know that killing, raping, and homosexuality is an equal SIN and if you read what I wrote you would know what I wrote!!!! I said killing and raping is way worse then being homosexual, to me and most of society think it's worse but not in the bible and a Bishop is suppose to follow the bible. if you don't get what I'm sayin then there's something wrong!!!!

Attachment:
juelz4.jpg (15.2578 kb, 27 views)

Old Post 03-08-2004 01:56 PM
Click here to Send nameless a Private Message Find more posts by nameless Add nameless to your buddy list Click Here to Ignore nameless REPORT this Post to a ModeratorNOMINATE this Post for Reward Points Reply w/Quote

chelktty
In the Now Guru

offline
Registered: Apr 2003
Local time: 03:44 AM
Location: Tampa
Posts: 2198

post #15  quote:

Why are people so friggin uptight? Are you attending that particular church? Are you a member of that faith? If the religious leaders accept it and you condemn it, have you ever thought about switching to a religion that banishes all gays? I hear the KKK has similar beliefs. Check them out.

I think it was Kookaburra who said in another thread, Love the sinner but hate the sin. Is the bishop currently "sinning" in a relationship with another man? Or is he simply a natural homosexual who abstains from sex, but lives his life according to God's plan for him? Hmm... the possibilities are endless. Nameless why are you so angry over this anyway? Closet case, personal experience or pent up teen angst with no outlet?


Old Post 03-08-2004 02:39 PM
Click here to Send chelktty a Private Message Find more posts by chelktty Add chelktty to your buddy list Click Here to Ignore chelktty REPORT this Post to a ModeratorNOMINATE this Post for Reward Points Reply w/Quote

Kookaburra
In the Now Guru

offline
Registered: Jun 2003
Local time: 03:44 AM
Location:
Posts: 2411

post #16  quote:

quote:
Dekka00 said this in post #3 :
the better question to ask is, what is the church coming to when they have priests and bishops in the first place?


Dekka you already know the answer to this. God is judging the churches first, and calling them out. You see this judgement going on with the child molestation, the misuse of church funds, and the list goes on.

God starts with the churches and exposes their sins. People have a chance to repent turn away from their sins. Those that do are His children, and those that don't will be a part of the world and suffer the fate of their judgement.

So, just because there are gay bishops does not mean it's destroying the church. What it's doing is exposing which churches are going to follow God's ways, and which ones will follow the way of the world.

I'm not upset that churches are supporting gays. I just know which church to stay out of, because they have exposed themselves to being a supporter of the world instead of God.

So, the more that goes on in exposing church wrong-doings, the more we can see where God is cleaning up. Let's just wait and see which churches repent and which ones don't.

We'll know them by their fruits.


Old Post 03-08-2004 02:58 PM
Find more posts by Kookaburra Add Kookaburra to your buddy list Click Here to Ignore Kookaburra REPORT this Post to a ModeratorNOMINATE this Post for Reward Points Reply w/Quote

chelktty
In the Now Guru

offline
Registered: Apr 2003
Local time: 03:44 AM
Location: Tampa
Posts: 2198

post #17  quote:

Oh and the story of Sodom and Gomorrah (Genesis 18-19) is often cited to show God's dislike for homosexuality, but this too oversimplifies the biblical text. It's hard to figure out who the good guys are in this story because Lot, the supposed hero, pimps his two daughters to the men of the town in exchange for rescuing the two angels who have come to stay with him. It's also hard to figure out what crime was committed that caused God's wrath to be brought on the town. If you read the Bible chronologically, then God planned to destroy the city (Genesis 18:20) well before the incident in which the men attempt to rape the angels (Genesis 19:9), suggesting that the attempted rape was not the primary cause of God's anger. Even if it were the cause, few gays and lesbians would disagree that rape should be condemned, but rape is not the same as homosexuality. And if you read Ezekiel 16:49, God never mentions homosexuality among the list of Sodom's sins. All together, it's hardly a compelling case that the story condemns homosexuality.

Old Post 03-08-2004 03:07 PM
Click here to Send chelktty a Private Message Find more posts by chelktty Add chelktty to your buddy list Click Here to Ignore chelktty REPORT this Post to a ModeratorNOMINATE this Post for Reward Points Reply w/Quote

nameless
Enthusiast

offline
Registered: Jun 2003
Local time: 12:44 AM
Location: Toronto Ontario
Posts: 72

post #18  quote:

KKK???? you would never step to me with that....You're behind ur comp being brave!! I am a Christian I've read the bible, if those leaders except homosexuality they can't be following the bible because in there it is wrong!! I don't care if a member of my family was gay I'de still love them, but if that person was going to be a bishop then i wouldn't except it because the bishop is not supose to SIN......and being against Gays is not the same as being racist so don't turn **** around and say I'm racist for what i'm saying, being gay is a choice ur not born with it!! Oh and closet case LMFAO if i were a closet case I probably wouldn't have started this thread and I am 22(no longer a TEEN)

and I am not angry I'm just expressing my opinion, thats what inreview is for!!


Old Post 03-08-2004 03:08 PM
Click here to Send nameless a Private Message Find more posts by nameless Add nameless to your buddy list Click Here to Ignore nameless REPORT this Post to a ModeratorNOMINATE this Post for Reward Points Reply w/Quote

nameless
Enthusiast

offline
Registered: Jun 2003
Local time: 12:44 AM
Location: Toronto Ontario
Posts: 72

post #19  quote:

I agree with you Kookabura they are supporting the way of the world and not the way of God. And I agree with the rest u wrote.

I am not angry about the churches supporting gays either I just don't agree with it!!


Old Post 03-08-2004 03:19 PM
Click here to Send nameless a Private Message Find more posts by nameless Add nameless to your buddy list Click Here to Ignore nameless REPORT this Post to a ModeratorNOMINATE this Post for Reward Points Reply w/Quote

chelktty
In the Now Guru

offline
Registered: Apr 2003
Local time: 03:44 AM
Location: Tampa
Posts: 2198

post #20  quote:

quote:
nameless said this in post #18 :
KKK???? you would never step to me with that....You're behind ur comp being brave!!

As are you darling

I am a Christian I've read the bible, if those leaders except homosexuality they can't be following the bible because in there it is wrong!! I don't care if a member of my family was gay I'de still love them, but if that person was going to be a bishop then i wouldn't except it because the bishop is not supose to SIN......and being against Gays is not the same as being racist so don't turn **** around and say I'm racist for what i'm saying, being gay is a choice ur not born with it!!


If your family member was gay, you'd love them. So, it's ok to be gay as long as you don't become a bishop, priest or any other position in the church, and as long as you're not allowed the same rights as heterosexuals...other than those things, homosexuals are tolerable. Nice.
I never said you were a racist. I simply stated a fact, that the KKK shares the same opinion as you in regard to homosexuals. If you're upset over being implied as a racist, I suggest you look inward for why you feel that way.
And last time I checked, it's never been scientifically proven that homosexuality is a "choice", not biological.


Oh and closet case LMFAO if i were a closet case I probably wouldn't have started this thread and I am 22(no longer a TEEN)

and I am not angry I'm just expressing my opinion, thats what inreview is for!!

You're right, my apologies for the antagonizing remarks. That's what the flamer's ward is for!


Old Post 03-08-2004 03:36 PM
Click here to Send chelktty a Private Message Find more posts by chelktty Add chelktty to your buddy list Click Here to Ignore chelktty REPORT this Post to a ModeratorNOMINATE this Post for Reward Points Reply w/Quote

chelktty
In the Now Guru

offline
Registered: Apr 2003
Local time: 03:44 AM
Location: Tampa
Posts: 2198

post #21  quote:

Whenever amateur Bible thumpers seek to prove that homosexuality is wrong, they trot out the story of Sodom and Gomorrah (Genesis 18, 19), recounting how God destroyed the entire city because it was filled with sodomites. And sodomites, as we all know are men who have sex with other men (i.e. homosexuals) -- ergo, we can tell that God hates **** because he wiped out the city of Sodom and Gomorrah for being filled with ****!

What this kind of deduction really proves is the veracity of the saying "garbage in, garbage out," meaning that a shortage of the facts, added to prejudiced assumptions, inevitably leads to bogus conclusions. Sadly, such bogus conclusions can have dire effects on our society. Specifically, ignorant and prejudiced conclusions about the Bible's "position" on homosexuality have led to generations of unnecessary guilt, suicide, sexual repression, violence against homosexuals, and legal persecution.

While a significant number of Americans have little or no interest in the Bible's position on homosexuality (turning elsewhere for their moral standard), the fact yet remains that all of us are affected to some degree by spurious biblical interpretations of the past and present. American culture is deeply saturated by "Christian" moral codes, and our laws regarding sexual conduct were originally based on them, having been modeled on English law, which was in turn derived from the do's and don'ts of the Church. Current attempts to challenge these laws and their penalties (in some cases up to 20 years in prison for acts of consensual sex) are still being countered by morally outraged individuals who invoke the Bible's alleged standards for sexual conduct.

So what then does the Bible really say about homosexuality? Let's briefly examine those parts of the Bible most commonly presented as "evidence" against homosexuality: the story of Sodom & Gomorrah in Genesis, the book of Leviticus, and words of St. Paul as recorded in the book of Titus.


Old Post 03-08-2004 03:44 PM
Click here to Send chelktty a Private Message Find more posts by chelktty Add chelktty to your buddy list Click Here to Ignore chelktty REPORT this Post to a ModeratorNOMINATE this Post for Reward Points Reply w/Quote

chelktty
In the Now Guru

offline
Registered: Apr 2003
Local time: 03:44 AM
Location: Tampa
Posts: 2198

post #22  quote:

Sodom & Gomorrah
First off, let's set the record straight: Sodom and Gomorrah were really two cities, not one. Second, at the time the biblical book of Genesis was written (somewhere between 2000 and 800 B.C.), "sodomite" simply meant "inhabitant of Sodom", not a person who commits sodomy. And while the term "sodomy" was eventually coined to refer to the wicked acts committed by the residents of Sodom (in the 11th century A.D.), it actually subsumed a wide variety of so-called "unnatural" sexual acts, not limited to anal and oral homosexual intercourse.
The habit of equating "sodomite" with "homosexual" appears to have begun around the time that the King James Bible was created, which teasingly suggests that the KJV itself may have inspired this particular misperception -- a misperception which is still alive and well 400 years later. (Note that the King James Bible was cobbled together in 1611 out of pre-existing religious texts. It also excluded a good number of equally-relevant religious texts, in part because they were deemed politically incorrect by King James' scholars.)

If we examine the book of Genesis in the King James Bible (or in later bibles based upon it, such as the Living Bible, the Modern Language Bible, etc.) we note that it is actually rather vague as to what the Sodomites did to piss off The Lord Almighty ("their sin is very grievous"). How, then, have readers in the past four centuries jumped to the conclusion that the residents of Sodom were destroyed for their homosexuality?

Essentially, most readers seeking to decipher the exact nature of the dirty deeds (and so perhaps sidestep the commission of similar "grievous" sins) have placed a great deal of emphasis on one particular passage, Genesis 19: 4, 10, which is commonly interpreted as indicating homosexuality.

In order understand why this conclusion is in error, let's take a look at the passage in question. At this point in the story, the angels of the Lord have come to Sodom to check things out for the Big Guy and to determine whether or not there are even 10 good men within the wicked city. (God had promised the faithful Abraham that he would not destroy the city if even 10 good men could be found there.) Lot, the only godly man the two angels cross paths with, has invited them to his home to spend the night. There is also some hint that he fears for their safety, should they simply camp out on the street corner as planned. They return to Lot's home and prepare to retire for the evening. Then comes the critical passage:

But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter; And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? Bring them out unto us, that we may know them.
"Know" here connotes know "in the Biblical sense." In other words, the men of Sodom were essentially shouting, "Send out the newbies so that we may rape them!"
According to historians, when tensions were high between towns or tribes in some parts of the Middle East, the convention arose of ass-raping the new guy in town, to make him feel cowed and humiliated. (Such rape was sometimes part of the treatment of enemy soldiers defeated in battle as well, although castration was another technique.) This rather unsavory tradition existed in counterpoint to the more benevolent tradition of acting as benefactor and host to visitors, a tradition much more in keeping with Mosaic rules of appropriate, godly, pro-social behavior.

To return to our story: Lot, who subscribes to the latter philosophy, is horrified by the crowd's threats to rip his two male guests from his protection and sexually assault them. So he offers up his two virgin daughters, so that the crowd might rape them instead. The crowd declines, threatens to do even worse to Lot, and tries to force their way into the house. Lot's male guests (a.k.a. the angels of The Lord, in disguise) put a stop to all this with their magical powers and warn Lot that he should take his family and get out of Sodom -- quick -- because they are now going to destroy the city (indicating that, after this incident, they have made up their minds -- the city is indeed so overrun with wickedness that it should not be saved).

So let's evaluate what we've just witnessed. Taken at face value, the above passages may seem to be saying that men having sex with other men is the deciding evil, the thing so terrible that the angels of the Lord said, "Whoa! That's it -- it's smiting time!" But this would be as ridiculous as saying that the passage proves that "godly" men should offer their daughters up to be gang-raped, or that Christians should prefer the raping of women to homosexual intercourse.

If, however, one places the passage within it's proper historical and cultural context, it becomes apparent that the crowd was not being portrayed as homosexual so much as they were being portrayed as cruel. They were sadists hell-bent, literally, on taking sexual pleasure from the suffering and humiliation of Lot's visitors. (As a side note, psychologist Erich Fromm once stated that sadism is the only true sexual perversion.) This kind of antisocial behavior runs contrary to the code of conduct later dictated by God to Moses (Exodus 20-23), which essentially amounts to treating others with fairness and respecting their persons and property rights.

Meanwhile, there is no reason for devoted Bible readers to conclude that Lot's plan of tossing his daughters to the crowd was an especially good plan worthy of future emulation. After all the angels never chime in with "Great idea! Better to rape and beat innocent young girls than strong adult males stupid enough to wander into foreign cities unarmed and outnumbered!"

As a side note, most likely Lot perceived that it would be less humiliating and scarring for his daughters to be raped, than it would be for his two guests. That is, for two women to submit to a man sexually, versus for two heterosexual men to submit sexually to other men. After all, ultimately that's what women did, submitted to men (although more properly their husbands). Men, especially, adult men, could not allow themselves to be penetrated without becoming, or being made, effeminate. And male effeminacy, in their view, had no place and was thoroughly revolting and disgusting -- why it was almost Babylonian!

Probably few readers of the Bible have been persuaded that abandoning young girls to rape and violent death is an acceptable idea. Yet, historically, many have willingly embraced the same passage as justification for the violent deaths of homosexuals (in England it was a hanging offense by decree of Henry the 8th). Why? This is a difficult question to answer. And in fact a similar quandry was faced by St. Thomas Aquinas when he tried to determine just why homosexuality was to be deemed an "unnatural" sex act. After lengthy consideration, St. Thomas concluded that it was basically the pre-existent prejudice of the common people that made it so. They had decided, for reasons unclear to him that it was unnatural, hence the Church followed suit in declaring it a sin.

So prejudice clearly has swayed Bible readers to conclude that homosexuality, even in loving, mutually consenting forms, is an unforgivable evil. The source of this prejudice, before it became self-perpetuatingly attached to the bible, is difficult to determine and warrants a separate discussion of its own. But suffice to say, at some point, the Bible became propaganda tool in the cause of bigotry.

Taking biblical passages out of context, both literary context (the story as a whole) and cultural context (the hidden subtext of meanings and morals) makes it easier to misunderstand and misrepresent the message of the stories from which they are plucked -- and to use these stories as weapons of propaganda and cultural repression.


Old Post 03-08-2004 03:45 PM
Click here to Send chelktty a Private Message Find more posts by chelktty Add chelktty to your buddy list Click Here to Ignore chelktty REPORT this Post to a ModeratorNOMINATE this Post for Reward Points Reply w/Quote

chelktty
In the Now Guru

offline
Registered: Apr 2003
Local time: 03:44 AM
Location: Tampa
Posts: 2198

post #23  quote:

Leviticus
If one needs further convincing upon this point, it may be worth considering some other Bible passages used to condemn homosexuality. The book of Leviticus is often trotted out as "proof" that God abhors gays. Take for example this passage: "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination" (Leviticus 18;22). Again, on the surface, this appears to be iron clad proof that homosexuality is wrong. But what does that mean "as with womankind"? Does it really mean you can't have sexual relations with a person of the same gender? Why, then, is there no injunction against women lying together? We might assume a lack of specificity is at fault, though this seems unwarranted since the next line specifically says, "Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it is confusion." Shall we assume that lesbianism is okay but that gays are damned? Seems rather ridiculous (although some lesbians might disagree).

A more contextual reading of Leviticus begins with acknowledging that this part of the Old Testament is essentially about ritual purity. It drones on ad nauseam as to who should sacrifice what kind of animal for what occasion and to redress which transgression and so on and so on. It then further details all the things that one might do that would make one impure in the eyes of the Lord. Lying with a man as with a woman is one of these. But think about it, what would you say about a man who just stuck his bare penis up another man's butthole -- wouldn't you say he was, at least temporally, unclean? Yeah, a little purification, or at least a good soapy shower, might be in order here.

But what about this abomination business? To answer this, let us digress to consider that, as a people, the Hebrews had spent a goodly amount of time in bondage to the Babylonians somewhere around the 6th century. Many scholars believe that a good deal of the Bible's negative spewage about "men who lay with other men as with women" was less a generalized hatred of homosexuality, and more a reaction to the religious practices of the Babylonians. Specifically, to the fact that in Babylon (and other parts of the Near East) the priests dressed in women's clothes and had anal sex with male worshippers. The Jews, followers of the male God Yahweh, were to purify themselves of all allegiance to foreign "idols" ("Thou shalt have no other god before me."). Hence all such goings on were forbidden to them. It was an abomination.

Certainly this does not "prove" that homosexuality was or is okay according to Christianity. But should at least make us think twice before trotting out the same old passages as evidence that sodomy equals anal sex and that anal sex equal homosexuality and that homosexuality is evil. Taken bit by bit, the pieces of this equation simply fall apart.

In the effort to defend or dispute this equation however, a great war of debate has raged between various biblical scholars who themselves are prejudiced to defend or condemn homosexuality. Essentially it has amounted to a great deal of arguing over subtle nuances of translation and the conclusion that one can or cannot draw from them regarding the Bible's real stance on homosexuality.


Old Post 03-08-2004 03:46 PM
Click here to Send chelktty a Private Message Find more posts by chelktty Add chelktty to your buddy list Click Here to Ignore chelktty REPORT this Post to a ModeratorNOMINATE this Post for Reward Points Reply w/Quote

chelktty
In the Now Guru

offline
Registered: Apr 2003
Local time: 03:44 AM
Location: Tampa
Posts: 2198

post #24  quote:

The Epistle of Paul
Ironically, most of what the Bible says on the subject of homosexuality may not even be relevant to gentile Christians. That is, for all that the anti-homosexuality camp has quoted the Old Testament books of Genesis, Leviticus, Deuteronomy, etc., the fact remains that St. Paul himself absolved all gentiles converting to Christianity of the ancient Hebrew purity laws. (Hence Christians can eat pork, go uncircumcised, etc.). Paul wrote:

Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. (Titus, verse 15)
In other words, it was one's earnest efforts to know the teachings of Christ and live according to them that was important. The soul's love of Christ purifies, sanctifies. Outward observance of traditional customs, on their own, accomplished little.

Yet there is further irony in the fact that it is St. Paul, who was responsible for the few passages in the New Testament that condemn homosexuality. The God Loves Gays camp is quick to point out that Paul's words can be translated into English in a number of ways and that perhaps what he was really talking about was male temple whores and the men who utilized their services. Looked at from this point of view, Paul's prohibitions may, again, have been about the spiritually polluting influence of the old pagan religions.

Although this may not have been Paul's intent at all, the point is an interesting one to consider. Many early bishops in the Christian Church had been influenced by the Greek Stoic philosophers. The Stoics believed one had to abstain from indulging in sexual pleasure (and other pleasures of the flesh) as much as possible because they distracted one from the pursuit of higher ideals (a belief shared by Buddha as well).

So to the potential Christian convert, here was the old religion on the one hand, offering ready sexual gratification as part of religious worship, and here -- on the other hand -- was the Christian religion, offering (at least according to some who taught it) a life of sexual chastity. To the average man on the street, the sexier religion may have seemed considerably more appealing. Leading to the ire of St. Paul against these the pagan temple whores. And who can blame him. It's hardly fair is it?

If indeed St. Paul's words, spoken in Greek, can truly be translated as referring to these temple whores and their patrons, then his admonitions have very little to do with homosexuals in general.

Evidence that this may indeed be the case, comes to us from records dating from the 8th through 18 century of same sex weddings performed within various branches of Christianity. Illustrations of these ceremonies show the priest placing the hand of a man, upon that of his male betrothed in exactly the same fashion as in male/female marriages. The obvious conclusion here is that early Christian fathers, relying on texts that predated the King James era English language translation of the Bible, found nothing within the bible itself to prohibit these relationships.

Of course, it has not been satisfactorily proven that sexual gratification was expected within these relationships. Meaning that the evidence, thus far absolutely supports the sanctity of the love between same sex partners. But it does not absolutely prove that their sexual union was everywhere granted the same approval as in a heterosexual union.

Still, the imagination is tantalized by scattered evidence which, if accurate, would indicate that in at least some instances, a physical relationship was acknowledged and sanctioned. For example, we have records describing St. Serge as the "sweet companion and lover" of St. Bacchus.


Old Post 03-08-2004 03:47 PM
Click here to Send chelktty a Private Message Find more posts by chelktty Add chelktty to your buddy list Click Here to Ignore chelktty REPORT this Post to a ModeratorNOMINATE this Post for Reward Points Reply w/Quote

TheHumbleOne
Rookie

offline
Registered: Mar 2004
Local time: 03:44 AM
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 1

post #25  quote:

chelktty people like you are the problem with the world today, the reason I say this is because you are failing to follow the guidelines of god. I just read what you had to say in response to the homosexual priests....you are completely wrong! I saw the special on 60 minutes last night, and the bishop is indeed gay and having sexual relations with another man while still ministering to others about god and Christ and telling them how to live their lives..... This is wrong....Lets put you in a scenario Chelktty....lets say you are a bishop and you are single but enjoy once in a while having sex with a man you find attractive within your congregation....is that alright..No....its fornication....read the bible....and so is homosexuality......you must be married before you have sex....it?s in the bible.....now how can you be teaching the word of god to others when you do not follow it???? He must step down from his position until his life is right with Christ....that?s the bottom line....is it okay for a bishop to have sex with a member within the church....no....is it okay for a bishop or you and I to steal....no.....is it okay for a bishop or you and I to rape boys in the church....no....its a sin... From what I read NAMELESS is not against homosexuals she probably embraces them and loves them as people....but they are living a life of sin.....a bishops responsibility is to lead by example and live an examplinary life....don?t get it wrong we all sin and come short of god, and under the Anglican rules and regulations a leader must step down if he feels he is not living the proper lifestyle to spread the word of god.....


LOL.....The KKK....lol....don?t get it twisted....lol.....KKK???? yes they were against gays, Jews, blacks but has the KKK banished or KILLED any gays in their history....you tell me, I really doubt it.....BLACKS....lol....many.....KKK was about Race!!!! Go down to the south they will tell you!!! I am black I should know about that....and don?t mix race with sexual behaviors....GOD does not make a man or a woman homosexual, but he does make us Black white yellow and brown.....homosexuality is a choice we as humans make.....but it is still as a sin, no matter what society says......

No Nameless did not say she wants to banish all homosexuals...lol....They are welcomed within the church, so are all other sinners.....its our responsibilities as Christians to go spread the news and bring the lost to Christ......and explain to them why certain things in there lives and ours are wrong and for us to make it into heaven they must be changed. We as Christians must not bend the rules god has put forth for us to follow....no matter what society tells us.....If we don?t follow the word of god (bible) who are we following????? The Devil, Satan!!!!!


Old Post 03-08-2004 09:07 PM
Click here to Send TheHumbleOne a Private Message Find more posts by TheHumbleOne Add TheHumbleOne to your buddy list Click Here to Ignore TheHumbleOne REPORT this Post to a ModeratorNOMINATE this Post for Reward Points Reply w/Quote

chelktty
In the Now Guru

offline
Registered: Apr 2003
Local time: 03:44 AM
Location: Tampa
Posts: 2198

post #26  quote:

quote:
TheHumbleOne said this in post #25 :
chelktty people like you are the problem with the world today, the reason I say this is because you are failing to follow the guidelines of god.

Aren't you precious? Sorry for making your words smaller, though I live in Florida, I'm not a senior citizen and have no need for the larger casing of letters. I would have to disagree with this statement. You're assuming I don't follow God's guidelines, when I indeed do. Maybe it's not your definition of God or your perspective, but I think even you can agree that there are many different religions and faiths in this world and that not all of them have the same "guidelines".

I just read what you had to say in response to the homosexual priests....you are completely wrong! I saw the special on 60 minutes last night, and the bishop is indeed gay and having sexual relations with another man while still ministering to others about god and Christ and telling them how to live their lives..... This is wrong....

I don't recall saying that the bishop wasn't having relations with men. I asked if she knew that he was, because the truth is, I'm not all that familiar with this bishop's story. So thanks for answering my query. I did recommend that if she belongs to that particular religion that sanctified this bishop into his position, knowing that he's gay, that she might want to consider a different religion or sect. As for the Bishop teaching others about God and Christ, what's wrong with that? As it is in today's society, gays are treated as second class citizens and outcasts of civilization. The laws and attitudes of the masses try to keep it that way. Interestingly enough, the outcasts of his day were still loved and accepted by Jesus. Never once did he mention homosexuality. And if you look at my previous posts, you'll see how even the misconception about homosexuality in the bible isn't a direct reference, rather open to interpretation.

Lets put you in a scenario Chelktty....lets say you are a bishop and you are single but enjoy once in a while having sex with a man you find attractive within your congregation....is that alright..No....its fornication....read the bible....and so is homosexuality......you must be married before you have sex....it?s in the bible.....now how can you be teaching the word of god to others when you do not follow it????

Hey that's not up to me to decide. Go complain to the heads of that sect. If they see nothing wrong with it and it's not your church, why do you care?

He must step down from his position until his life is right with Christ....that?s the bottom line....is it okay for a bishop to have sex with a member within the church....no....is it okay for a bishop or you and I to steal....no.....is it okay for a bishop or you and I to rape boys in the church....no....its a sin... From what I read NAMELESS is not against homosexuals she probably embraces them and loves them as people ....

Not what I gathered from her comments, but ok.

but they are living a life of sin.....a bishops responsibility is to lead by example and live an examplinary life....don?t get it wrong we all sin and come short of god, and under the Anglican rules and regulations a leader must step down if he feels he is not living the proper lifestyle to spread the word of god.....

But again, if the heads of his religious faith see nothing wrong with it and have not kicked him out of his position? Wouldn't you think that different religions view homosexuality differently? Perhaps their interpretation of the Bible isn't as harsh and bigoted as others.


LOL.....The KKK....lol....don?t get it twisted....lol.....KKK???? yes they were against gays, Jews, blacks but has the KKK banished or KILLED any gays in their history....you tell me, I really doubt it.....BLACKS....lol....many.....KKK was about Race!!!! Go down to the south they will tell you!!! I am black I should know about that....and don?t mix race with sexual behaviors....GOD does not make a man or a woman homosexual , but he does make us Black white yellow and brown.....homosexuality is a choice we as humans make.....but it is still as a sin, no matter what society says......

How do you know that God doesn't make gay people? He makes gay animals in the animal kingdom...aren't they creations of God too? Would stand to reason that it's a natural biological thing. It hasn't been proven not to be anyway. And besides, I've known many gays who would change who they were in a heartbeat, to be hetero and "normal". To spare themselves the grief. They would change...if they had a choice.

No Nameless did not say she wants to banish all homosexuals...lol....They are welcomed within the church, so are all other sinners.....its our responsibilities as Christians to go spread the news and bring the lost to Christ...

Maybe we should start with bringing Christ back to the Christians.

...and explain to them why certain things in there lives and ours are wrong and for us to make it into heaven they must be changed. We as Christians must not bend the rules god has put forth for us to follow....no matter what society tells us.....If we don?t follow the word of god (bible) who are we following????? The Devil, Satan!!!!!

This cracks me up... How is it, when someone else is bending the rules, that it becomes your problem and responsibility? Since so many of you in here seem to be self proclaimed true followers of God, I would think that when God decides to rain his vengefulness upon America for all of it's demoralized society, that you would feel confident in your purity that your ticket to heaven is secured. So why cast all this judgement upon people who you'll never meet in your life?


Old Post 03-08-2004 09:47 PM
Click here to Send chelktty a Private Message Find more posts by chelktty Add chelktty to your buddy list Click Here to Ignore chelktty REPORT this Post to a ModeratorNOMINATE this Post for Reward Points Reply w/Quote

twisted_wizard
Mastermind

offline
Registered: Feb 2004
Local time: 02:44 AM
Location: Texas
Posts: 985

post #27  quote:

..... woah... this is going everywhere.... interesting that unintendened insults bristle their needles.....

calm down people.
although it is a SIN to be gay. You cannot just ignore your feelings... Ihave a gay firend who's christian.

How about you look at this whole gay thing in a more scientific realm, hm? you know > she has more male hormones that of the female one (I forgot term... )
or try to portray gay Bishops as "guys who like pink flowery curtains" not, "he is doing it with a he" .....

and please..... even though you are behind the computer, it doesn't mean that you can go about offending everyone (I'm not pointing fingers, mind. Truly, I am not.) and I'm sure most of the insults are unintended. eh? yeah...


Old Post 03-09-2004 01:24 AM
Click here to Send twisted_wizard a Private Message Find more posts by twisted_wizard Add twisted_wizard to your buddy list Click Here to Ignore twisted_wizard REPORT this Post to a ModeratorNOMINATE this Post for Reward Points Reply w/Quote

j.p.s.
Veteran

offline
Registered: Mar 2004
Local time: 03:44 AM
Location: toronto
Posts: 368

chel..... post #28  quote:

Ok not to be rude or anything Chel but you made alot of assumtions and insulted people. Yeah you suggested that nameless change religions but you insinuated she was a bigot by making your choice for her stating the KKK. Then you attacked here maturity by assuming she was a teen. I'm not going to play these games. i'm not going to pull out chapters and verse to argue the point of whether or not gay people are good or bad (i don't care that much). The views of the church for over a millenia has been that gays have no place in the chruch...i'm sure we can both agree on that. Christian's whether right or wrong beleave that it's a sin same as murder or rape exc.... If we force there religion to accept gays into the church system your messing with there morals and the standard of life they have choosen to live by. Which is wrong.

honestly tho i could care less i have family that's gay i still love them and care about them. If they wanted the become a bishop they sure won't have my suppport.

Lastly you made a comment about young bible thumpers..... That wasn't a smart comment the only difference between a young and a older bible thumper isn't intelligence more like years of giving up and accepting a wrong behind the excuse of there having to be a grey area. I beleave there is a right and wrong a black and white without a grey we've just become a society of idiots that wants to know why we do the things we do. I don't care if someone raped a boy cause he wasn't given enough attension as a kid by his father or mother we all have dealt with this kinda **** we all aren't out there raping cause we know what's right and wrong, the more we as a society beleave in the grey the bigger the grey will become. It all comes from the same thing people instead of fighting for what they beleave in and saying hell no to people outside of there beliefs telling them they have to do it this way and letting there system become curropt.

Younge people shape and make the future, old people play golf and die.

p.s. with the slow evolution the current and future younger generations have become smarter not dumber.


Old Post 03-09-2004 01:29 AM
Click here to Send j.p.s. a Private Message Find more posts by j.p.s. Add j.p.s. to your buddy list Click Here to Ignore j.p.s. REPORT this Post to a ModeratorNOMINATE this Post for Reward Points Reply w/Quote

Staff
gaboman
What Would Jack Do?

offline
Registered: Aug 2003
Local time: 04:44 PM
Location: The land, the land down under.
Posts: 12701

post #29  quote:

quote:
nameless said this in post #14 :
If you read the bible then you would know that killing, raping, and homosexuality is an equal SIN and if you read what I wrote you would know what I wrote!!!! I said killing and raping is way worse then being homosexual, to me and most of society think it's worse but not in the bible and a Bishop is suppose to follow the bible. if you don't get what I'm sayin then there's something wrong!!!!

Do you really want me to tick you off with my views of the bible? Because I will. If you want to push it. Also, I got what you were saying, but it's the way you said it that's unacceptable.

PS. Good comments chelkty Cool, calm and collected as always..... And humbleone.... are you serious with that name?? (also KKK wasn't just about race, read a book instead of watching TV and you'll learn something)


Old Post 03-09-2004 01:32 AM
Click here to Send gaboman a Private Message Find more posts by gaboman Add gaboman to your buddy list Reply w/Quote

twisted_wizard
Mastermind

offline
Registered: Feb 2004
Local time: 02:44 AM
Location: Texas
Posts: 985

post #30  quote:

what's so BAD about guys liking guys? weird, yeah. but not absolutely wrong....

It depends... I'd usually just frowned upon it then smile because it's genuine "love".... some people take comfort in the same sex.... *shruggs*


Old Post 03-09-2004 01:39 AM
Click here to Send twisted_wizard a Private Message Find more posts by twisted_wizard Add twisted_wizard to your buddy list Click Here to Ignore twisted_wizard REPORT this Post to a ModeratorNOMINATE this Post for Reward Points Reply w/Quote
Time: 08:44 AM Post New Thread   
Pages (8):  [1] 23 » Last »   Print Version | Email Page | Bookmark | Subscribe to Thread
INReview INReview > The Scuttlebutt Lounge > Philosophy & Religion > A Gay Bishop....what's This World Coming To!?!?
Search this Thread:
Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is OFF
vB code is ON
Smilies are ON
[IMG] code is ON
Forum Policies Explained
 
Rate This Thread:

< >

Copyright ?2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
Page generated in 0.10084105 seconds (91.37% PHP - 8.63% MySQL) with 48 queries.

ADS

© 2018, INReview.com.   Popular Forums  All Forums   Web Hosting by Psyphire.
INReview.com: Back to Home