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Kookaburra
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post #31  quote:

I'd like to add a litte to what Kim and Marlene have already said. There is a difference between repenting, and just confessing your sins. When you repent, it means to ask God for forgiveness for the sin, but it also means turning away from the sin and not doing it any more.

When you confess your sin, and return back to the sin, and confess it again, and return back to again, that is not repentence, and that's where people seem to get the idea that God is just going to keep forgiving you.

He knows if you are truly remorseful for your sins.

As for everyone murdering, that also comes from the Ten Commandments as a whole. These Commandments are a package deal. You either take them all, or none. If you break one, you break them all. So technically, you may have not committed a murder, but you may steal. Therefore, you have broke all the Commandments.

As for murderers finding God, I believe this is highly possible, but I also believe some will do it for show. Take Saul for instance, before He became Paul. He murdered, and had people murdered. People feared that man to no end because they knew what he was capable of doing to them. When he was walking down a road, God spoke to him and asked him why was he persecuting His people. Saul changed and repented of his sins, and God forgave him. This is a beautiful event for all of us. If God cannot take a murder's life, or an adulter's life, or a liar's life, or any sinner's life and turn it into something beautiful, then everything about our existence is in vain. What would be the use of trying to live right for God if it meant nothing for Him? Our lives mean everything to Him, and He loves us, but He does not allow us to keep sinning.

Yes, He's a very loving God, but He's also a very holy God, and requires us to repent, and turn away from sin.


Old Post 12-12-2003 03:54 AM
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hatchjaw
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post #32  quote:

quote:
Marlene Newell said this in post #19 :
In order for God not to allow evil to happen, he has to totally take away our free will. Do we really want him to do that? We might think we do, but consider what that means. NO CHOICE about anything.

What kind of life would that be? Pretty miserable.



I'm not too sure about this. Would we really have no choice at all? I don't think that taking away evil would take away free will as well. There are countless things we cannot do. I, for example, cannot levitate or read minds or teleport and so on and so on. And I don't need to. If I had been born without the ability to harm other people it would just be another thing in the long list of things I cannot do. I can't really see how that takes away my free will.


Old Post 12-12-2003 03:21 PM
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Kookaburra
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post #33  quote:

quote:
hatchjaw said this in post #32 :



I'm not too sure about this. Would we really have no choice at all? I don't think that taking away evil would take away free will as well. There are countless things we cannot do. I, for example, cannot levitate or read minds or teleport and so on and so on. And I don't need to. If I had been born without the ability to harm other people it would just be another thing in the long list of things I cannot do. I can't really see how that takes away my free will.


Maybe what she's referring to is the right to choose between evil or good. There are actually people in this world that could care less about God, and want a life without Him. It's foreign for me to think that, and I can't even comprehend that, but they do exist.

They have the right to reject God. The reward for that kind of choice though is eternal absense from God. If God were to have never given us a choice to be with Him, or without Him, Satan would have accused God of creating living beings that had no choice to choose God. He would have concluded that God only made puppets. The angels obviously are given choices too. I think the reason Satan was not given pardon and forgiveness is because he committed the unpardonable sin, which sealed his fate.

As for humans, we were created with choice. Satan has set himself up to be a god, and those that choose not to serve God, will be absent from Him for an eternity (which can't even be calculated or comprehended).

Those that end up with God for an eternity will be ones who obeyed Him by choice. I long for the day when I can walk outside and not worry about being mugged, raped, or murdered. I long for the day when I don't have to think about a bomb being dropped on us, or persecuted for loving God with all my heart, or persecuted and threatened for choosing integrity over wrong doings. That's only going to happen when the Lord binds up evil and removes it from His children. I can't imagine what a peaceful mind that would be. I will gladly give up my free will of being able to choose evil over good. I don't even want to know about evil, or remember the pain it brings. I just want it wiped out of my memory forever, and that's a reward we end up with for choosing God now.


Old Post 12-12-2003 04:41 PM
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ryanvii
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post #34  quote:

down

Last edited by ryanvii on 12-12-2003 at 10:16 PM |
Old Post 12-12-2003 10:11 PM
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ryanvii
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post #35  quote:

quote:
Kookaburra said this in post #33 :


I will gladly give up my free will of being able to choose evil over good.



This reminds me of people willing to give up their civil liberties for "safety" from terrorism.


Old Post 12-12-2003 10:13 PM
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1young11
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post #36  quote:

There are a couple attributes that both evolutionists and theists have in common, the most pertinent being faith.

Neither side has absolute proof... scientists have theories and hypotheses about our origins, theists have their respective beliefs, and books of faith.

The bible clearly says that salvation is of faith... it can't be more clear... Christians try and debate, and argue, but all the debate in the world will not produce conclusive proof... that is not to say they are wrong, thats just to say that ultimatley, no matter how firmly they believe that they are absolutely right, it must be recognized that their belief relies on faith, not proof.

The theories of evolution have not been proven, they remain theories. To believe a theory is absolutely right without proof requires faith.

Atheists excercise faith that there is no God... because to categorically state that there is no God would require that person to have all knowledge of everything... which poses two problems, 1: no one knows everything, and 2: if someone did know everything wouldn't they be God, thus disproving their statement.


Ultimately we all rely on faith, regardless of how right we think we are, the problem comes into being when we are more concerned with being right than we are with being better people.


Old Post 12-13-2003 05:08 AM
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post #37  quote:

quote:
1young11 said this in post #36 :
The theories of evolution have not been proven, they remain theories. To believe a theory is absolutely right without proof requires faith.


Hi Young...long time no talk!!! How are ya?

I have to disagree here.....

Actually it has been pretty much proven, and there arent many people who disagree with this anymore. Even the Catholic Church agrees evolution occurs......in fact, people all over the world, of different creeds and beliefs are in agreement. There are only a handful that dont want to see the bigger picture.....

Many people look at it as Creationism.....God created, but evolution occurs now.

Many people believe evolution just occured without help.....

Either way....evolution occurs.....


Old Post 12-13-2003 09:02 AM
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1young11
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post #38  quote:

Hi Mystic yeah it has been a while, I'm doing ok, thanks for asking, and you?

I think I need to clarify

quote:
Many people look at it as Creationism.....God created, but evolution occurs now.


You are right there is evolution now, but to my understanding the only form of evolution that has been observed, and proven evolution within a species. With that I do not disagree.

But evolution from one species into a completely new species is something else all together. This kind of evolution there is no proof for, this kind of evolution has not been observed, so ultimately belief in that kind of evolution requires faith.

If I am wrong about my last paragraph please show me the proof that that type of evolution does indeed exist, not theories that seem to have scientific, and mathematical support, but tangible proof. Because anything less than tangible proof requires faith.


Old Post 12-13-2003 12:25 PM
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KristianKim
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post #39  quote:

Hi 1young11. Your reply about creationism and evolution made me think of something alot of people don't realize. Creationists expend alot of energy saying evolution isn't true, etc. Evolutionist do the same about creation. But you know what? If it was proven without a shadow of a doubt that evolution occured just as the theory states, that would in no way disprove a Creator. And vice versa.

The same could be said for other things. For example I've read a few posts from a Muslim person on this board, who insists that Jesus didn't die on the cross and implies that because of this Islam is the correct religion. Well, no. If Jesus didn't die and wasn't ressurected (something I believe did happen, but for the sake of argument let's say it was absolutely proven that he didn't) that would in no way serve to prove that any of the claims of Islam were true.

One more thing. I really admire the way that everyone on this board is respectful of one another, regardless of their beliefs. You can't know how refreshing that is.


Old Post 12-13-2003 02:46 PM
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Kookaburra
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post #40  quote:

1young11, I tend to agree with your claims concerning faith, and that's an excellent way of putting athiest's belief in perspective too.

I think science wants to use their discoveries for dating things as the absolute correct way, with no errors. However, they did not exist during the Creation, and have no way of knowing if their dating techniques are flawless. Therefore, they too are going by faith that when they date a tree, or a fossile, or whatever, that their methods and results are flawless. For all we know, the results they claim are millions of years old, could in fact turn out to be hundreds of years instead.

It is all based on faith.

There is an absolute in the Bible though, in spite of the flaws created by interpretation. Watch the prophesies! How can something be just by faith when we see before our eyes how the prophesies are being fulfilled in our own time?

So let's say a person does not believe in God, or Christ, or the Bible... their disbelief doesn't make God's Word null. If I told someone that gravity will pull them to the ground if they step off a cliff, and they said, "I don't believe in gravity...you just have faith gravity exists, but you have no proof", their ignorance of gravity and refusal to believe will not exempt them from the reality of gravity's existence.

Likewise, people's ingorance of the effects of God's Word will not exempt them from the reality of its existence either. How can it just be by faith alone when the events prophesied in the Bible are actually taking place, and confirmed? Faith about Christ and salvation is definately faith, but the prophesies are proven facts.


Old Post 12-13-2003 03:10 PM
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1young11
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post #41  quote:

What prophecies are being fulfilled in our day?, Not just generalities of war and famine?


With gravity, there is a sure fire way to prove its existence, instead of walking off a cliff, I would drop a rock... proof of gravity does not require my death, as opposed to religion.

Granted though, that some things are true wether we believe them or not.


Old Post 12-14-2003 01:13 AM
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post #42  quote:

If I were God and wanted a "peaceful" place,I would appear in SOME form and "prove" it. Maybe announce and then perform moving the Sun or something. Something undeniable. What effects do you suppose this would have? I know MY life would be altered INSTANTLY and forever. This would be the ONLY chance for world peace. So, one MIGHT conclude that it isnt very important to Him. Every war is about religion. Corruption is everywhere throughout the churches. Pedophiles for decades have used the church as a beard. The highest officials in the church are going to jail at alarming rates for everything from sexual deviancy to money fraud. And the ones that are held in the highest regards are walking on the sand in the back of their multi-million dollar homes. Just an observation.

Old Post 12-14-2003 02:06 AM
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Marlene Newell
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post #43  quote:

quote:
devildog said this in post #42 :
If I were God and wanted a "peaceful" place,I would appear in SOME form and "prove" it. Maybe announce and then perform moving the Sun or something. Something undeniable. What effects do you suppose this would have? I know MY life would be altered INSTANTLY and forever. This would be the ONLY chance for world peace. So, one MIGHT conclude that it isnt very important to Him. Every war is about religion. Corruption is everywhere throughout the churches. Pedophiles for decades have used the church as a beard. The highest officials in the church are going to jail at alarming rates for everything from sexual deviancy to money fraud. And the ones that are held in the highest regards are walking on the sand in the back of their multi-million dollar homes. Just an observation.


Devildog, your theory sounds reasonable, but history proves that no demonstration by God will affect people who do not want to believe in Him (speaking generally, not about you).

For example, the Israelites witnessed their miraculous release from Egyptian bondage, including the parting of the Red Sea and the destruction of the Egyptian army. Yet, just weeks later, they were worshipping a golden calf.

Elijah called for a "duel" between the Gods, as evidence of which one really was God. His God won decisively, but the people still continued to worship the gods that lost.

On this continent, just preceding and at the time of Christ's birth, great signs were given in the heavens, so the people would know Christ was born. The signs included a miraculous continuation of light as at noon day even though the sun set as usual. Within just a few years, unbelievers were claiming these signs were deceptive tricks.

In another instance in the scriptures, an anti-Christ was preaching there would be no Christ. He gathered together quite a following. When confronted by a prophet, the anti-Christ demanded a sign. Well, he got a sign -- he was struck dumb. He even admitted, in writing, to his followers that he was deceived by the devil and Christ would come. Yet, his followers continued to preach that there would be no Christ.

Sometimes signs do convince. Paul was certainly convinced by a sign. Most often, however, signs do not convince unbelievers, as they find some way to rationalize away the sign.


Old Post 12-14-2003 03:48 AM
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dulos
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post #44  quote:

1young11,

You said
quote:
Neither side has absolute proof... scientists have theories and hypotheses about our origins, theists have their respective beliefs, and books of faith.

Neither side has absolute proof... scientists have theories and hypotheses about our origins, theists have their respective beliefs, and books of faith.

The bible clearly says that salvation is of faith... it can't be more clear... Christians try and debate, and argue, but all the debate in the world will not produce conclusive proof... that is not to say they are wrong, thats just to say that ultimatley, no matter how firmly they believe that they are absolutely right, it must be recognized that their belief relies on faith, not proof.



Now the bible defines faith as "the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." KJV Hebrews 11:1

So is there evidence?

Luke (not an eyewitness) certainly thought so:
He said speeking of Jesus showing himself alive after his cricifixion and death by "infallible proofs," KJV Acts 1:3

Peter (an eyewitness) said: "For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty." KJV 2 Peter 1:16

Now you may say that all 11 disiples (remember Judas hung himslef) could have agreed to say that Jesus of Nazareth had rose from the grave.

But that kind of lie would have been disproven to the publicly long before it went mainstreem in the ancient world.

They couldn't because one, there was no body to produce from a tomb, which had been very heavly gaurded by Roman Gaurds, who would have recieved death if they allowed the body to have been taken.

Not only that, but there too many eyewitness still alive when the Bible was first being written.

Paul said, "For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance : that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve.

After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living , though some have fallen asleep. " 1Cor 15:3

Christianity is based on the belief, or faith (which described by the Bible as evidense of things not seen), that Jesus died for the sins of mankind and Rose Again.

When Paul wrote 1 Corinthians, there were still eyewitness that were around that could be consulted. They seen Jesus alive after seeing him dead.

The bible has much scientific proof or evidence to back it up. Where as the the Theory of evolution (And I am speeking of that class in which one kind of animal, turns in to another), has no empirical evidence at all. In fact there is more evidence for an intelligent designer.

It has Eyewitness evidence contained in itself. These People who wrote the bible, most of who came from different places, and different occupations, most never once met each other. Yet all wrote the same basic message.

Now you say that you want conclusive proof. But even in a court of Law, no case in the world in prooven with conclusive proof. If you have ever been selected to be a jurror, I have, You will see that you must base your verdict, your judgment if you will, on reasonable doubt.

Reasonable doubt is defined as follows, "not a meer possible doubt, because everything pertaining to life has a doubt. (ex. The LA Lakers are winning the game by 70 points at half time. I doubt that the opposing team can make a comback, but it is possible.) A reasonable doubt is that in which one looks at all the evidence and then sees if it lines up with the original statement made. It is possible that Chritianity with its beliefin the Bible and Jesus are not true. But it is unresonable to believe that possiblity when you look at all the evidence.

There is as I already mentioned:

1. Eyewitness evidence: Evidence preserved in the bible which were writen by those who seen these things, or interviewed many who did as in Lukes case in the Gospel of Luke and Acts.

2. There is Documentary Evidence: The bible was acurately and reliably preserved for us. There are in all 24,000 ancient manuscrips in existense today; and they all match up with almost perfect unity. Meaning there are few variations between the manuscripts and when they happen, they tend to be minor rather than major. They never efect any basic doctrine of Christianinty.

3. Its unity evidence: Forty different authors writing over a period of 1,600 years penned the 66 books of the Bible. Four hundred silent years separated the 39 books of the Old Testament from the 27 of the New Testament. Yet, from Genesis to Revelation, there is one theme: Jesus Christ.

3. Its prophetic Evidence: These passages focus on Jesus the Messiah, though some prophecies concern other things.
Important Messianic Passages

The following will be prohesied in the Old testament and shown fullfilled in the new testament:
P = Prohesied F = Fulfilled
Messiah to be the seed of the Woman
P: Gen 3:15 F: Gal 4:4

Messiah to be the seed of Abraham
P: Gen 12:3; 18:18 F:Lk3:23,34; Mat 1:1-2;
Ac 3:25; Gal 3:16

Messiah to be of the tribe of Judah
P: Gen 49:10
F: Lk 3:33 Mat 1:1-2

Messiah to be of the seed of Jacob
P: Num 24:17, 19
F:Mat 1:1-2 Lk 3:34

Messiah to be of the seed of David
P: Ps 132:11; Jer 23:5; 33:15 Is 11:10
F: Mt 1:6; Lk 1:32-33; Ac 2:29-30; Ro 1:3

Messiah to be a prophet like Moses
P: Deut. 18:15, 19 F: Mt 21:11; Jn 6:14; 1:45; Ac 3:22-23

Messiah to be the Son of God
P: Ps 2:7, Prv 30:4 F: Lk 1:32 Mt 3:17

Messiah to be raised from the dead
P: Ps16:10 F: Ac 13:35-37

Messiah to experience crucifixion
P: Ps 22; Ps 69:21 F: Mt 27:34-50 Jn 19:28-30

Messiah to be betrayed by a friend
P: Psalm 41:9 F:John 13:18,21

Messiah to ascend to heaven
P: Ps 68:18 F:Lk 24:51; Ac 1:9

I'm sure you get the point. This is enough proof and yet it is not the end. This and much more convinces me beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Cristian religion is not based on only a theory and only based on faith.

The mathematical odds are stagering. You are more likely to get struck by lightning everyday of your life, and win the Lottery every day of your life than for even one of those prophecies to have come true.


Old Post 12-14-2003 08:36 AM
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hatchjaw
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post #45  quote:

quote:
Marlene Newell said this in post #43 :


Devildog, your theory sounds reasonable, but history proves that no demonstration by God will affect people who do not want to believe in Him (speaking generally, not about you).

For example, the Israelites witnessed their miraculous release from Egyptian bondage, including the parting of the Red Sea and the destruction of the Egyptian army. Yet, just weeks later, they were worshipping a golden calf.

Elijah called for a "duel" between the Gods, as evidence of which one really was God. His God won decisively, but the people still continued to worship the gods that lost.

On this continent, just preceding and at the time of Christ's birth, great signs were given in the heavens, so the people would know Christ was born. The signs included a miraculous continuation of light as at noon day even though the sun set as usual. Within just a few years, unbelievers were claiming these signs were deceptive tricks.

In another instance in the scriptures, an anti-Christ was preaching there would be no Christ. He gathered together quite a following. When confronted by a prophet, the anti-Christ demanded a sign. Well, he got a sign -- he was struck dumb. He even admitted, in writing, to his followers that he was deceived by the devil and Christ would come. Yet, his followers continued to preach that there would be no Christ.

Sometimes signs do convince. Paul was certainly convinced by a sign. Most often, however, signs do not convince unbelievers, as they find some way to rationalize away the sign.



For many people these examples, being from the Bible, don't qualify as history. It seems more like a case of religion proving religion.

And saying that no demonstration by God will affect those who do not want to believe is baffling to me. Isn't God supposed to be almighty? He was able to design and create the universe itself and everything in it? But He can't make his own creation believe that He exists? Do you really believe that?


Old Post 12-14-2003 08:37 AM
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hatchjaw
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post #46  quote:

Oh and dulos, The same point that I made to Marlene applies to your post as well. You can't use the Bible to prove the Bible. Saying that things prophesied in the Old Testament being fulfilled in the New Testament is proof of the Bible telling the truth is like saying that Harry Potter is real because the second book is consistent with the first one.

Old Post 12-14-2003 08:46 AM
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Marlene Newell
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post #47  quote:

quote:
hatchjaw said this in post #47 :
Oh and dulos, The same point that I made to Marlene applies to your post as well. You can't use the Bible to prove the Bible. Saying that things prophesied in the Old Testament being fulfilled in the New Testament is proof of the Bible telling the truth is like saying that Harry Potter is real because the second book is consistent with the first one.


Hatchjaw,

I cited those stories to demonstrate that signs do not convince unbelievers. Your rejection of them as valid historical references simply proves my point.


Old Post 12-14-2003 07:52 PM
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post #48  quote:

quote:
Marlene Newell said this in post #48 :


Hatchjaw,

I cited those stories to demonstrate that signs do not convince unbelievers. Your rejection of them as valid historical references simply proves my point.


How does it prove your point? I thought your point was that no matter what kind of sign God gives some people will not believe. Do you think that an old book is the best God can do? If He wanted, I'm sure He could come out right now and show Himself. I'm pretty sure that if He does it right I would believe.

And I don't outright reject the stories as valid history, but I am skeptical about their validity. That doesn't make me a person who won't believe no matter what. I merely pointed out that quoting bible isn't very good proof of God's existence. It's like saying that the Bible has to be true because the Bible says it is.


Old Post 12-14-2003 08:10 PM
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outsider
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post #49  quote:




quote:
hatchjaw said this in post #47 :
Oh and dulos, The same point that I made to Marlene applies to your post as well. You can't use the Bible to prove the Bible. Saying that things prophesied in the Old Testament being fulfilled in the New Testament is proof of the Bible telling the truth is like saying that Harry Potter is real because the second book is consistent with the first one.




Stop, you are so cracking me up.
That is so true, you can't use the bible to validate the bible. That is like using a word to define the same word. And now we have to believe Harry Potter is real beacuse there is more that one book , and Winnie The Poo must be real as well, darn it.


Old Post 12-15-2003 05:46 AM
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outsider
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post #50  quote:

This reasoning is exactly why I ignore posts that post scripture. I don't believe the bible is true. And it cannot validate the truth. If god wanted to show us he existed, he would (if he is really that powerful). And he would do it in a way that everyone would understand that there is a god, which would make us all believers. That has not happened.

I also find it annoying that people who believe in the bible expect judgement day to come now in this time period. I think that is really putting self importance on themselves. If jesus hasn't been around for 2000 years, why does any one think that their life is so important that god would do anything now? He may not come back to earth for another 2000 or 5000 or 15000 years. He is not going to show up because you are here now to witness it. The world will not end for quite a while and god is not visiting any time soon, get a grip.


Old Post 12-15-2003 05:53 AM
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post #51  quote:

quote:
1young11 said this in post #38 :
Hi Mystic yeah it has been a while, I'm doing ok, thanks for asking, and you?

I think I need to clarify



You are right there is evolution now, but to my understanding the only form of evolution that has been observed, and proven evolution within a species. With that I do not disagree.

But evolution from one species into a completely new species is something else all together. This kind of evolution there is no proof for, this kind of evolution has not been observed, so ultimately belief in that kind of evolution requires faith.

If I am wrong about my last paragraph please show me the proof that that type of evolution does indeed exist, not theories that seem to have scientific, and mathematical support, but tangible proof. Because anything less than tangible proof requires faith.


How can I prove something that isnt scientifically proven? I look at a number of issues to stand by my belief......fertilization, mutations, crossing over of alleles, natural selection. There are new species today that never existed before.....how can that be if evolution didnt occur?

I mean I have a hard time believeing that God would say..."They need some new species in the world...I think Ill create more."

Is that what you think? Im just curious....

Oh...Ive been good! Im glad to see you back!! You were gone for awhile!!


Last edited by mystic on 12-15-2003 at 10:22 AM |
Old Post 12-15-2003 10:13 AM
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post #52  quote:

quote:
outsider said this in post #51 :
This reasoning is exactly why I ignore posts that post scripture. I don't believe the bible is true. And it cannot validate the truth. If god wanted to show us he existed, he would (if he is really that powerful). And he would do it in a way that everyone would understand that there is a god, which would make us all believers. That has not happened.

I also find it annoying that people who believe in the bible expect judgement day to come now in this time period. I think that is really putting self importance on themselves. If jesus hasn't been around for 2000 years, why does any one think that their life is so important that god would do anything now? He may not come back to earth for another 2000 or 5000 or 15000 years. He is not going to show up because you are here now to witness it. The world will not end for quite a while and god is not visiting any time soon, get a grip.



Agreed!!!!

And I also agree with hatchjaw that using the Bible doesnt "prove" the bible....I always thought it was funny that when people try to prove something, they use scriptures......well.......if I question already, whats the point in throwing out scriptures?.....Give me something more solid.....not something from a book that I already question the contradictions on.


Old Post 12-15-2003 10:19 AM
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post #53  quote:

I've seen discoveries of human like footprints embedded in rock near dinosaurs. Any biblical explanation? How could there be? Does the bible even mention Dinosaurs? No ,not giants or monsters.That is interpretation.Nostradamus like. According to the bible we are how old? How old do the dinosaurs date? We KNOW they were here.
Just a realist looking for answers.


Old Post 12-15-2003 02:09 PM
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post #54  quote:

quote:
devildog said this in post #54 :
I've seen discoveries of human like footprints embedded in rock near dinosaurs. Any biblical explanation? How could there be? Does the bible even mention Dinosaurs? No ,not giants or monsters.That is interpretation.Nostradamus like. According to the bible we are how old? How old do the dinosaurs date? We KNOW they were here.
Just a realist looking for answers.



A valid point indeed!!

According to the Bible the earth has been in existence for only 10,000 years.....well, sorry to say, but the Earth has been around much longer than that.....try like millions of years. I think the 10,000 years is just a tad bit off.

Dinosaurs existed millions of years ago....that would be a bit difficult to occur if the Earth wasnt around to "house" them.

Just a thought.


Old Post 12-15-2003 05:58 PM
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1young11
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post #55  quote:

quote:
I've seen discoveries of human like footprints embedded in rock near dinosaurs. Any biblical explanation? How could there be? Does the bible even mention Dinosaurs? No ,not giants or monsters.That is interpretation.Nostradamus like. According to the bible we are how old? How old do the dinosaurs date? We KNOW they were here.


The closest description of a dinosaur in the Bible is taken from Job... (which is also thought to be the oldest book) An animal is described to have a tail like a tree, and is called the behemoth, and leviathan.


Old Post 12-15-2003 06:21 PM
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post #56  quote:

quote:
mystic said this in post #52 :


How can I prove something that isnt scientifically proven? I look at a number of issues to stand by my belief......fertilization, mutations, crossing over of alleles, natural selection. There are new species today that never existed before.....how can that be if evolution didnt occur?

I mean I have a hard time believeing that God would say..."They need some new species in the world...I think Ill create more."

Is that what you think? Im just curious....

Oh...Ive been good! Im glad to see you back!! You were gone for awhile!!



How do we know that they never existed before? Perhaps we never noticed them. Take for instance all the animals that have thought to been extinct, but have surfaced at one point or another... like the coelacanth, this is a big planet with a lot of places to hide, just because we haven't seen a certain species before, doesn't necessarily mean that it is a new species.


Old Post 12-15-2003 06:34 PM
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post #57  quote:

quote:
mystic said this in post #55 :



A valid point indeed!!

According to the Bible the earth has been in existence for only 10,000 years.....well, sorry to say, but the Earth has been around much longer than that.....try like millions of years. I think the 10,000 years is just a tad bit off.

Dinosaurs existed millions of years ago....that would be a bit difficult to occur if the Earth wasnt around to "house" them.

Just a thought.


Mystic, devildog claims
quote:
I've seen discoveries of human like footprints embedded in rock near dinosaurs.


As far as I know, no evolutionist claims that humans or humanoids date back to the age of the dinosaurs.

Seems to me that devildog's evidence requires man and dinosaurs to be co-existing. So, I'd say something is wrong with the dating system.


Old Post 12-15-2003 07:41 PM
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post #58  quote:

Huh?

Old Post 12-16-2003 12:53 AM
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post #59  quote:

I swear everytime I have this conversation with someone who quotes the bible and I tell them I don't believe in the bible, they say okay, well the bible says.

What? Was I signing my response? Was I talking in a language other than the one you're speaking? I just said I didn't believe in the bible.

That gets so frustrating. It's like talking to a parrot. I'm trying to have a conversation but the other person is constantly repeating the bible. There is no conversation here, I'm trying to converse and the other person is preaching.

I get to the point where I give up because I think the other person is stupid, they cannot think for themselves, they seem brainwashed and that makes me distrust religion even more. I do know religious people who don't do this, but most of the time this is what I encounter.

To me this is very bizarre.

Show me some proof that was founded by a non-religious, non-atheist, neutral party, outside of the bible and I will surely listen. In other words, show me the money!


Old Post 12-16-2003 10:00 AM
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post #60  quote:

just out of curiosity, but what is it about the bible that makes you doubt its validity?

Old Post 12-16-2003 05:55 PM
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