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ryanvii
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religion post #1  quote:



if we'd just realize that we humans exist due to a mathmatical equation resulting from the big bang and forget this rediculous idea of Gods or a God there wouldn't be a problem.

Except there are two types of people who do not believe in God. Those that realize we are alone and come to the conclusion every man/woman for himself. Or those that realize we are alone and that we as humans, must help each other.

The only way terrorism can be solved is through a world government. One that is not concurent with capitalsim. For we all know that Capitalism and Democracy cannot coexist. (that is if you live in the united states) Once we realize that we humans are one in the same. That our differences should be respected and not looked at as a problem, can we over come this infighting on a global scale. Terrorism. There is no reason to fight. There is plenty for all.


Old Post 12-05-2003 05:47 AM
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devildog
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post #2  quote:

Kinda off topic but here's what I think; I happen to agree with some of your statement. You say there are only two types of non-believers but both have to agree that we are alone(according to you).I think it to be incredibly naive and arrogant to think we are alone. There is Overwhelming proof but that is another post. I like to deal with common sense and I too find it hard to believe the Bible. For example; The whole Arc thing;a 700 ft boat w/ no nails or glue (no inert earth materials at that point), animals assemble from all over the globe( including sloths ),what did they eat,why not each other(tiger snapping up a monkey) , I feel it is all interpretation from A piece of literature. One book and hundreds of religions would support this. What I mean is there is one book but hundreds of beliefs.What about Dinosaurs?? I didn't run across any in the book. Anyway ,having said this, I feel it VERY important that religion is supported, respected and most of all protected. I think people NEED faith. I see nothing wrong with it. I pray with my 5 year old daily.She will make her own mind up later in life. It is virtuous.

Old Post 12-05-2003 03:27 PM
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oneofpeace
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post #3  quote:

Big bang? Tell me why if you can believe that we came from a big bang, others can't believe that we were created by God.

As for terror, humans simply have to deal with people because of their ideologies about life. It seems if someone can appeal to a mass of people, the mass will follow that person blindly regardless of what he/she does. This is how you get followers of ideas and mean rather than reason and logic.

If one can believe that there's evil in this world, then one has to believe there's good. Otherwise, we'll just sink into the abyss of our finite mind wondering where God does or doesn't exist.


Old Post 12-05-2003 03:29 PM
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devildog
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post #4  quote:

Just for the record I don't necessarily agree with the big bang theory.

Old Post 12-05-2003 03:36 PM
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ryanvii
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post #5  quote:

"Tell me why if you can believe that we came from a big bang, others can't believe that we were created by God."

for one, we know the big bang happened. man created god. or perhaps there is a god, but he created us through the big bang.

"If one can believe that there's evil in this world"

evil doesn't exist independtly in the world. evil, hate, greed are taught and embedded in society (capitalism).


Old Post 12-05-2003 05:14 PM
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oneofpeace
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post #6  quote:

Well how do we know the "big bang" happened? Isn't it all a matter of belief? Scientists have certainly come up with many theories including the big bang.

It is natural to accept that which is tangible over that which isn't. After all, it requires no faith to know it exists when we can see and touch it, but if we didn't know something tangible existed, and we cannot see or touch it, would it not exist?

To some it wouldn't, thereby dictating actions that would reflect such.

What I'm trying to say is that is all a matter of faith.


Old Post 12-05-2003 05:37 PM
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ryanvii
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post #7  quote:

faith is a delusion. it is a step taken when we realize we're alone. created to make us feel better about being alone.

Old Post 12-05-2003 05:47 PM
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post #8  quote:

ryanvii,
Agreed.
I was brought up in a strict Catholic family. Over the years I've become more of a realist and don't necessarily subscribe to Catholicism.
Mainly it?s because of the theological interpretations from each religion. Both the Bible and the Quran were written by humans therefore, it is very hard for a human to keep his own opinions out of such works. Now, compound this by how many times they have been re-written by humans trying to interpret it themselves.
Religion brings Hope for many and without it life would be a drag.
Scientifically speaking, we are doomed by our own greed.


Old Post 12-05-2003 07:12 PM
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Metal*Femme
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post #9  quote:

To put quite frankly, I must say that I don't believe in God. With the realization that there are so many other different religions, how is it possible to know, exactly, which faith is the right path to follow. I am reading the bible, and I must agree with devildog about the difficulty in assuming the truthfullness of the scriptures. So far, no one has proof about Methusela living to be 900 years old or something- or blood turning to wine.
However, no matter how strongly someone disagrees with a religion, they have no right to disrespect it- or terrorize the people who believe in it.

The best thing, I beleive is to believe in yourself and to focus on what happens to you while you're alive instead of worrying about what becomes of you after death...
By the way... I'm doing a report on Religious intolerence during the immigration years of the US and if anyone would know some informative, historical sites, that would be great.


Old Post 12-06-2003 12:34 AM
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outsider
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post #10  quote:

The Big Bang or Creationism? Well big bang is based on science principals that we know and use today. For example, we all know the science E=Mc2. Einstein did a lot of research on electromagnetism. We as humans are cells of energy. How do all those cells stay together? Electromagnetism. Not the exact kind that you use to put a magnet on the fridge, but very similar. Gravity keeps us on the earth. These have been studied by scientists over time. Did you know that your skeleton regenerates itself every 7 years? How? DNA. (yes every 7 years you are a new person :-) )

These are things that science can verify. So big bang is based on how energy reacts and creates life. We are life composed of energy. Take a science course, watch PBS, it is common knowledge.

Does science replace christianity? No. Science is a religion of it's own. So what is religion? Well it is many things to many cultures past and present. Are any of them the "right" one. No. Impossible to be the "best" or "correct" religion. That is a personal choice.

What if we had to get rid of religion? Many people would feel empty inside. They would be lost without direction. True spirituality should not leave that void in a person. Humanity would have to get in touch with their spirituality if religion went away. Science however does not go away. We as humans always search for answers. Some of us need proof, and some of us have blind faith.

I prefer proof. If you tell me the used car I am buying has a perfectly functioning engine, I expect proof, or no sale. Just because someone said something was true, or because it is written in a book, or photographed, filmed, or recorded, does not make it a fact.

This is 2003 You can edit any book, photo, recording, film, etc to push your own agenda. It is a common fact that history is written by those in power. The poor and abused never write the history of the world. And even if they did, it would reflect only their view or agenda. Why is religion any different?

So much fighting has been caused by the war between the religious and the non religious. If you read every post in this section of Inreview, you will have proof of the eternal conflict.

What I never see in the real world is the two sides trying to coexist without one side trying to convert the other.

I guess a major question I have that no one seems to be exploring is...

Who really cares how we got here, how can we make our world a liveable place? Stop hunger, hatred, abuse, disease, etc. Stop fighting, start living.


Old Post 12-06-2003 10:11 AM
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oneofpeace
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post #11  quote:

quote:
ryanvii said this in post #7 :
faith is a delusion. it is a step taken when we realize we're alone. created to make us feel better about being alone.


You act on faith everyday whether you believe it or not. When you sit in a chair, you don't test the chair first. You trust it to support you when you sit there.

Faith is how the US came to exist in the first place. Your attempt to explain it will never stand because their two different worlds. You trust in what you can see and touch. Faith is the opposite of that. You cannot look in space for fish. They don't exist there, but it doesn't mean they don't exist.


Old Post 12-08-2003 05:49 PM
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post #12  quote:

What makes you think that Big Bang explanation and science in general are so different from religion? We learn the vision of creating the world from Bible and it's only an image that a MAN created in his mind, inspired by God. Actually, Genesis looks pretty much like Big Bang - or well, definitely more similar to Big Bang than to other scientific theories on creating the world.
Why should it be impossible to be a true Christian while supporting science? I believe we people cannot truly understand the way God created us, or the universe. The way to understand God is only thru love. But, we can still contemplate 'technical issues' of creating the world - how did it happen, or when; but we can't - ever - realise why the world was created. Not by scientific, rational contemplation.
And about non-believers - maybe it is better to think about religion and finally conclude that it won't be a part of your life, than to blindly accept whatever you were taught. Only - is it, really? No one ever said people must understand God to be believers. Actually, from the beginning of human kind and religion, it was pretty clear that Man, without any help and only with his poor intellect, could never understand God. If you don't understand something, that doesn't have to mean it doesn't exist. And I think that's the only problem here. People try to scientifically, rationally judge their religion. And it doesn't have any connection with the rationality we know.


Old Post 12-08-2003 06:51 PM
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ryanvii
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post #13  quote:

The notion of language games might be able to help us with this "contradiction" between evolution and creationism, for it focuses on ACTION rather than true and falsehood.

We use the terms "true" and "false" in certain contexts. Usually when we are investigating whether something is or is not, as in scientific invesitigation.

Darwin used the methods of science: observing, sorting the true from the false, using methods of scientific inquiry to give an account of the origins of things.

But why can't there be other ways of accounting for the origin of things, using other language games, ones that focus on other practices than dividing truth from falsehood?

A person for whom the practices of worhsip and prayer are central to his or her life might respond to fundamental questions in a different way and might find the account of origins in Genesis more real.

His search would be conducted differently from a scientist's. He might pray for guidance. This would not necessarily produce an answer in the scientific sense, for he would be seeking different satisfactions.

So there need be no contradictions between Genesis and Darwin, but what is important is to be clear on the nature of one's commitment.

- taken from Introducing Wittgenstein


Old Post 12-08-2003 08:38 PM
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outsider
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post #14  quote:

Not everyone lives on faith everyday. You assume that everyone assumes that the chair is okay and we all sit. Untrue. People who are obsessive compulsive will test the chair. Most humans wash their hands 30 seconds to 1 1/2 minutes. They are don. They have faith that the germs are gone. Obsessive compulsive individuals will wash from 5 minutes to an hour depending on the severity of their condition.

Faith cannot be assumed. Some people disbelieve in the opposite direction beyone reason.

Which brings me to my point. Having blind faith can do harm. We have all hear or seen news stories of the overly faithful who decide their dying child will be healed by god and refuse to get the child medical help. This is where faith creates harm. We as humans are intillegent enough to know that medicine should be the first choice. And praying at the same time could not hurt.

There is no point in religion or evolving (darwin) if we cannot make better choices.


Old Post 12-09-2003 08:11 AM
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devildog
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post #15  quote:

[QUOTE]outsider said this in post #14 :


We as humans are intillegent enough to know that medicine should be the first choice.


Maybe medicine AFTER one is ill,infected,or inflicted but anyone who reads about medicines will discover that preventative(shots) medicines are extremely dangerous.


Old Post 12-09-2003 10:25 AM
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oneofpeace
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post #16  quote:

Outsider, there are indeed exceptions to every rule. Certainly compulsive washing of the hands isn?t the norm and reflects a mental disorder in the psyche. You cannot give a blanket indictment of everything by one reason because usually circumstances are a combination of many reasons.

Those of whom you speak when referring about faith in healing indeed do not understand that God gave man the knowledge to heal among other things, and that going to a doctor is not doubting God, but acting in faith according to the knowledge that God has given to man. We can trust God to take us from our homes to our jobs yet it is man, through the knowledge God has given him, that gets inside his car and drive there. God is not simply going to snap his fingers and put us in our offices across town.

But this doesn?t mean that God doesn?t heal. It simply means that these people in all their sincerity were misguided in their beliefs.

Faith is acting on something without evidence that it will do what we expect. Everyone does this to some degree or not regardless of whom we believe in or not. I for one don?t believe having blind faith in God can do anyone harm. I do however believe that if you have faith in God, you better know that it is indeed Him talking to you and not some other source like your own intellect or imaginations. This is where the harm creeps in.


Old Post 12-09-2003 02:02 PM
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devildog
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post #17  quote:

If God is going to be credited for healing indirectly through Doctors than we must conclude that it is HIS work when the Doctor cuts off the wrong leg(Tampa). I wish I had the faith of most. I analyze things too much,for example; I ponder,If "HE" is responsible for all of creation and can do all these things and knows you to the "marrow of your bones" than why couldn't 'HE" drop a chandelier on the head of the Priest who "HE" knows is going to molest a child in "HIS" house? Who am I to question to Lord? I'm just a guy concerned with preserving the innocence of the only sacred thing we have on earth...children.

Old Post 12-09-2003 02:17 PM
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oneofpeace
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post #18  quote:

Who knows why God allow some things to happen. I do know that transgressions do not go unpunished. We all are held accountable for our actions including priests.

There are many unanswered questions Dev. To say because a doctor was negligent is God's fault is in my opinion a bit of a stretch. But you have to know that if there is good, then there's an opposite. We call it bad, or evil.

Sometimes I wonder myself why God allow some things to happen, but I do know this as well. He also allows so much good also.


Old Post 12-09-2003 05:16 PM
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Marlene Newell
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post #19  quote:

In order for God not to allow evil to happen, he has to totally take away our free will. Do we really want him to do that? We might think we do, but consider what that means. NO CHOICE about anything.

What kind of life would that be? Pretty miserable.


Old Post 12-09-2003 08:41 PM
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outsider
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post #20  quote:

quote:
oneofpeace said this in post #16 :
Outsider, there are indeed exceptions to every rule.
That was exactly my point.
You cannot give a blanket indictment of everything by one reason because usually circumstances are a combination of many reasons. Correct.

Faith is acting on something without evidence that it will do what we expect. That is called taking a chance. Everyone does this to some degree or not regardless of whom we believe in or not. I for one don?t believe having blind faith in God can do anyone harm. Unless you refuse to get your dying child medical help and expect god to heal him. I do however believe that if you have faith in God, you better know that it is indeed Him talking to you and not some other source like your own intellect or imaginations. This is where the harm creeps in.


The harm creeps in when you replace your own intillegence with something else, like religion, drugs, addictions, food. When you use something else as an excuse to not take responsibility for your life or the lives you are entrusted with, it is intentional harm.

And I am highly offended that you would say that those that have faith should assume it is gods voice talking and not their intellect or imagination. If god created everything, he created your intellect and imagination and he expects you to use it.


Old Post 12-10-2003 02:52 AM
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Marlene Newell
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post #21  quote:

quote:
outsider said this in post #20 :


The harm creeps in when you replace your own intillegence with something else, like religion, drugs, addictions, food. When you use something else as an excuse to not take responsibility for your life or the lives you are entrusted with, it is intentional harm.

And I am highly offended that you would say that those that have faith should assume it is gods voice talking and not their intellect or imagination. If god created everything, he created your intellect and imagination and he expects you to use it.


Outsider, religion requires personal accountability to God for all thoughts, words, and deeds. Religion also requires personal accountability to society in the areas wherein society is deemed necessary for the order and welfare of the general public. Thus, religion requires a murderer to confess his guilt to the civil authorities and accept his or her punishment. It is a gross inaccuracy to say that religion provides a scapegoat for people to do what they want.

Part of that accountability to God is to use the talents He has given you. Part of that accountability to society is to be a positive contribution to the general welfare.

You have to distinguish between people who are truly religious -- that is, their religion stems from their worship of God -- and those who only feign religion.


Old Post 12-10-2003 04:07 AM
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outsider
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post #22  quote:

Paragraph #1-agreed
Paragraph #2-agreed
Paragraph #3 I know people who are truly religious. They are fine people. And I know people who feign religion, take a person on death row, don't you find it amazing that people serving long terms in prision suddenly become overly religious? If they really were a religious person they wouldn't have killed someone. They are truly feigning religion.

However none of that had to do with my point.


Old Post 12-11-2003 02:11 AM
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ryanvii
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post #23  quote:

"If they really were a religious person they wouldn't have killed someone. They are truly feigning religion."

What about forgiveness? How do you know they are truly feigning religion? You don't, you assume.


Old Post 12-11-2003 02:33 AM
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outsider
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post #24  quote:

I deal with criminals and people who scam others everyday, I know a story when I hear it. They think they will look less dangerous to the courts and public by suddenly finding god. They try and play off of the sympathies of those that do believe by pretending they have changed. It is a scam, clear and simple.

People who are religious do not go around killing others. Anyone who kills in the name of god is a person who needs great mental health care.

Just like the people who bomb abortion centers and kill the doctors in the name of god. God frowns on killing, period.


Old Post 12-11-2003 02:52 AM
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post #25  quote:

Of course God frowns on murder, but here's something most people don't realize. According to the Bible all sin is abhorrant to God, regardless of what it is. Jesus says that the scriptures say "thou shall not kill" but that anyone who is angry with another has broken that commandment. So do you think that God can't forgive any of us, because I know (according to the Bible) we've all been guilty of the sin of murder.

Old Post 12-11-2003 03:59 AM
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outsider
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post #26  quote:

How are we all guilty of murder?

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post #27  quote:

quote:
KristianKim said this in post #25 :
Of course God frowns on murder, but here's something most people don't realize. According to the Bible all sin is abhorrant to God, regardless of what it is. Jesus says that the scriptures say "thou shall not kill" but that anyone who is angry with another has broken that commandment. So do you think that God can't forgive any of us, because I know (according to the Bible) we've all been guilty of the sin of murder.



Are you saying that God does forgive? For anything?

Im just asking because some people on here have suggested that if a person lives a certain lifestyle they are sinners, and have indirectly suggested that they may never be forgiven.

But...Ill ask, as Outsider did, how have WE all been guilty of murder?


Old Post 12-11-2003 07:52 AM
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outsider
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post #28  quote:

I am so curious as to how we are all guilty of murder. I have never killed anyone, human or animal. I am also a vegetarian so I do not eat murdered food.

And to elaborate on mystic's point, if god forgives us for everything, what incentive is there to keep any of the commandments, or anything in the bible for that matter?


Old Post 12-12-2003 01:51 AM
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Marlene Newell
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post #29  quote:

Outsider, Christ was talking metaphorically. He was trying to impress upon the Jews that simply abstaining from murder is not sufficient -- to even be angry is itself a sin.

God forgives everyone who repents. Repentance is not an easy matter. It is not simply saying, Oops, sorry. Repentance involves a Godly sorrow for sin, a recognition of all the harm that has been caused by your sin. God doesn't simply pat us on the head and say, that's okay. Repentance is a purging, by God's power, of not only the sin committed, but of the desire to sin.

The more serious the sin, the more painful the repentance process.

An "awareness of your guilt" is probably the best way to describe the repentance process.

Afterwards comes the beautiful peace and joy of knowing your soul is again right with God.


Old Post 12-12-2003 03:15 AM
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KristianKim
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post #30  quote:

I'm in a hurry here, because I have homework to do, so I'll make this brief. Once you're saved you are convicted (your conscience or God or whatever you want to call it) to do the right thing. Therefore even though all of my sins, past. present and future are forgiven and I still sin, I don't want to and try hard not to. I don't think I have a free ticket.

Old Post 12-12-2003 03:23 AM
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