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chelktty
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post #31  quote:

Absolutely I would defend against another government coming in and forcing a way of life. And I have no problem with you questioning the intentions behind this war Kook, I think a lot of us do. I thought it was interesting that after the fall of Baghdad, while the Iraqi people were looting and fighting amongst each other, our troops hightailed it to the oil fields to protect those and keep them under U.S. control. (Not bashing the troops, just the ones who gave them orders)
For the most part I think Iraqis (like most of the world) hated Saddam and wanted to see him overthrown and gone. Have you seen the things he would do to anyone who spoke out against him? He was a merciless dictator with a lust for torture and murder.
What is left of his regime and Iraqi's who want to reclaim their country from American occupation are the ones that I think are attacking and killing U.S. soldiers now.
I think if we had had a plan set up to begin with for implementing a new government, one that gave power to the people rather than a dictator, had the full support (military, financial and political) of the other nations in the world, I think that Iraq would not be in the state of chaos that it is in right now.


Old Post 11-14-2003 05:45 PM
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Kookaburra
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post #32  quote:

My best guess for why the troops immediately defended the oil wells was because of what happened during the Gulf War. They were set on fire, and I think the only way to keep history from repeating itself is preventative action.

Old Post 11-14-2003 07:14 PM
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Sayzak
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post #33  quote:

What happens during a draft?

Sequence of Events

Here is a brief overview of what would occur if the United States returned to a draft:

1. CONGRESS AND THE PRESIDENT AUTHORIZE A DRAFT
A crisis occurs which requires more troops than the volunteer military can supply. Congress passes and the President signs legislation which starts a draft.

2. THE LOTTERY
A lottery based on birthdays determines the order in which registered men are called up by Selective Service. The first to be called, in a sequence determined by the lottery, will be men whose 20th birthday falls during that year, followed, if needed, by those aged 21, 22, 23, 24 and 25. 18-year-olds and those turning 19 would probably not be drafted.

3. ALL PARTS OF SELECTIVE SERVICE ARE ACTIVATED
The Agency activates and orders its State Directors and Reserve Forces Officers to report for duty. See also Agency Structure.

4. PHYSICAL, MENTAL, AND MORAL EVALUATION OF REGISTRANTS
Registrants with low lottery numbers are ordered to report for a physical, mental, and moral evaluation at a Military Entrance Processing Station to determine whether they are fit for military service. Once he is notified of the results of the evaluation, a registrant will be given 10 days to file a claim for exemption, postponement, or deferment. See also Classifications.

5. LOCAL AND APPEAL BOARDS ACTIVATED AND INDUCTION NOTICES SENT Local and Appeal Boards will process registrant claims. Those who pass the military evaluation will receive induction orders. An inductee will have 10 days to report to a local Military Entrance Processing Station for induction.

6. FIRST DRAFTEES ARE INDUCTED
According to current plans, Selective Service must deliver the first inductees to the military within 193 days from the onset of a crisis.


Old Post 11-15-2003 05:41 PM
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mystic
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post #34  quote:

quote:
Originally posted by chelktty
I think I'm lucky enough to be past the draft age, but I think it's totally wrong. Our military numbers are strong enough without forcing people to join. It's no different from radical dictators pulling children out of schools and forcing them into training camps to brain wash them into being terrorists.


Couldnt agree more!


Old Post 11-15-2003 09:23 PM
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Benyamin
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nothing would end our involvement in Iraq quicker than a draft post #35  quote:

just like in Vietnam the more you involve the general populace
in "dirty little wars" the quicker they will remove their support for
th conflict.


Last edited by Benyamin on 11-15-2003 at 10:26 PM |
Old Post 11-15-2003 10:11 PM
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Kookaburra
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post #36  quote:

quote:
Originally posted by sayzak21
What happens during a draft?



You sound like an echo... see this thread:

http://www.inreview.com/showthread....10&pagenumber=2


Old Post 11-16-2003 04:59 PM
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MrJukoVette
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post #37  quote:

I think I'm lucky enough to be past the draft age, but I think it's totally wrong. Our military numbers are strong enough without forcing people to join. It's no different from radical dictators pulling children out of schools and forcing them into training camps to brain wash them into being terrorists.

Another stupid comparison. US army and terrorist camps... No different.


Old Post 11-16-2003 11:13 PM
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MrJukoVette
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post #38  quote:

Originally posted by chelktty

Absolutely I would defend against another government coming in and forcing a way of life. And I have no problem with you questioning the intentions behind this war Kook, I think a lot of us do. I thought it was interesting that after the fall of Baghdad, while the Iraqi people were looting and fighting amongst each other, our troops hightailed it to the oil fields to protect those and keep them under U.S. control. (Not bashing the troops, just the ones who gave them orders)

Just remember that those oil fields were put on fire by Saddam and would serve good in wrong hands. It's good that US secured oil fields first...

What is left of his regime and Iraqi's who want to reclaim their country from American occupation are the ones that I think are attacking and killing U.S. soldiers now.

Add foreign jihadists and pro-Saddam influence coming from Tikrit - and you got the picture...

I think if we had had a plan set up to begin with for implementing a new government, one that gave power to the people rather than a dictator, had the full support (military, financial and political) of the other nations in the world, I think that Iraq would not be in the state of chaos that it is in right now.

US had the damn plan, supposed to make Iraq a democracy in few steps: invade, rebuild, make infrastructure work and then transfer power to local authorities. US did not bring a dictator to power and it was other countries who refused to help and not US.


Old Post 11-16-2003 11:21 PM
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mystic
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post #39  quote:

quote:
Originally posted by MrJukoVette
I think I'm lucky enough to be past the draft age, but I think it's totally wrong. Our military numbers are strong enough without forcing people to join. It's no different from radical dictators pulling children out of schools and forcing them into training camps to brain wash them into being terrorists.

Another stupid comparison. US army and terrorist camps... No different.


Why stupid? It makes perfect sense if you read it in the right text.


Old Post 11-17-2003 12:54 AM
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MrJukoVette
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post #40  quote:

I read it in the text, where it said "taking young men out of their homes and making them serve is just like training them in terrorist camps". Well, maybe you didnt know mystic, army is military force serving your LEGITIMATE government, and terrorist camps are... a little different, don't you think?
Honestly i didnt expect you to support this stance, mystic.


Old Post 11-17-2003 08:16 AM
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mystic
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post #41  quote:

quote:
Originally posted by MrJukoVette
I read it in the text, where it said "taking young men out of their homes and making them serve is just like training them in terrorist camps". Well, maybe you didnt know mystic, army is military force serving your LEGITIMATE government, and terrorist camps are... a little different, don't you think?
Honestly i didnt expect you to support this stance, mystic.


I supported the war...I, however, do not support the draft. I think that by initiating such a thing...is exactly as Chelktty says. Forcing someone to fight for a cause that they dont want to be involved with is no different than, like she said, terrorists forcing children out of their homes to fight for the terrorist cause that they may not believe in...

Do you really feel that by them doing that it is any different than forcing an 18 year old child to fight a war that they didnt voluntarily sign up for?

I thought it was a very good analogy.


Old Post 11-17-2003 08:47 AM
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Barbed wire
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post #42  quote:

quote:
Originally posted by mystic


I supported the war...I, however, do not support the draft. I think that by initiating such a thing...is exactly as Chelktty says. Forcing someone to fight for a cause that they dont want to be involved with is no different than, like she said, terrorists forcing children out of their homes to fight for the terrorist cause that they may not believe in...

Do you really feel that by them doing that it is any different than forcing an 18 year old child to fight a war that they didnt voluntarily sign up for?

I thought it was a very good analogy.



1. To be drafted at 18 y.o. is much better: no career, no family yet.

2. Conscripts may serve at home, taking place of the volunteers which are sent overseas.

3. Count how many troops needed to engage several countries of the Evil Axis. These countries may form a anti-US military alliance, if they've not done it yet.


Old Post 11-17-2003 10:07 AM
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chelktty
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post #43  quote:

quote:
Originally posted by mystic


I supported the war...I, however, do not support the draft. I think that by initiating such a thing...is exactly as Chelktty says. Forcing someone to fight for a cause that they dont want to be involved with is no different than, like she said, terrorists forcing children out of their homes to fight for the terrorist cause that they may not believe in...

Do you really feel that by them doing that it is any different than forcing an 18 year old child to fight a war that they didnt voluntarily sign up for?

I thought it was a very good analogy.


Thanks Mystic! That's exactly as I intended it.

MrJuko, if you'd like to make a personal attack or slam on me in some attempt to build your ego or feed your lust of provoking a fight, take it to the Flamer's Ward. I have no use for your personal digs here.

Getting back on topic, I think taking a 20 year old kid, forcing him into military training, (lest he face prison for refusing to do so) giving him 6 weeks of basic training and then dropping him into a battle that he doesn't believe in is wrong.
My stepdad served 6 tours in Vietnam. He saw too many American kids getting killed after being freshly plucked from their high school graduation and given only 6 weeks to learn how to survive in battle. Was it really fair to those kids and their families to lose their lives in that war? What was it that the Vietnam War accomplished besides losing 58+thousand American soldiers and over a million vietnamese?
Liberating Iraq and the Vietnam conflict were two totally different scenarios. One was a cause worth fighting for. It also was the only one out of the two that didn't require drafting unwilling participants to carry out it's task.


Old Post 11-17-2003 02:33 PM
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Lawless
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post #44  quote:

No, I don't think that it's fair to just "pluck" some young person, throw a gun in there hands and tell them to go kill the enemy. Especially when they don't want to fight.

And chelktty, it was a great point that you made, comparing that to a terrorist camp. You're not saying that it is, but that when you force someone to learn to go and kill the enemy, when that's not what you want to do, that becomes such a forced thing. Excellent observation.

Mrjuko... she's right. If you want to attack her, take it to the flamers ward. To call her stupid will not be tolerated. Her idea was not attacking you, in any way, yet you chose to attack her and be disrespectful. So, take that kind of crap to the FW's, or leave it off the board completely.


Old Post 11-17-2003 03:15 PM
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MrJukoVette
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post #45  quote:

Oh my god, i am not attacking anybody.... I didnt call her stupid, i said "i didnt expect you to support this stance". Neither i was disrespectfull, quite opposite. Sometimes i think there is no limit to correctness. Take it easy!

Coming back to army and terrorist camps... well what can i say... army serves your country, and as far as i know USA is governed by democratic administrative body, with many layers of bureacracy and many people taking decisions - you have congress, senate, different departments, etc. Serving your country is not something you are able to dismiss, you HAVE to do it wholeheartedly, especially when we are talking about USA.

What is army ideology? Kill the enemy, as outlined by top military commanders, starting with the president and all the way to field commanders. What did president say? There are terrorists - this is true, - we have to fight them - true again! Unlike other countries invading to conquer, USA invades to liberate. You americans should be 1000 times proud of your government, which is taking steps to accomplish at least one of humanities' goals: make people FREE. Government which spends YOUR money to send aid to Africa, Asia, bunch of different countries around the world, government that spends hundreds of billions and american lives to bring freedom and peace to one of the most hostile and hot regions on the planet...

Knowing all this, it is STUPID - yes i said it is STUPID - to compare US army, even if it's draft, to terrorist camps. Again, no personal offense - just my opinion.

PS. To admins: you can send me as many warnings as you want, i dont care. Ban me right away if you want.


Old Post 11-18-2003 07:57 AM
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chelktty
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post #46  quote:


While I respect that you didn't directly call me "stupid" MrJuko, the fact remains that you did indeed brand my statement with a derogatory remark. Backpeddle all yo want to, doesn't change the fact that you show an absolute disregard and lack of respect for the ideas of others. If you disagree with my opinion, that's your perogative and you're entitled to your opinion as much as I'm entitled to mine. However instead of simply disagreeing with the statement you chose an to use an inflamatory remark.
Going back to the original statement I made, yes I compare the draft to camps that train and brainwash terrorists.
Military basic training breaks down men and women and rebuilds them into soldiers both mentally and physically. They are trained to fight, kill and die for this country. They follow through with the orders of their commanding officers regardless of if those orders go against that soldier's moral fiber.
If someone chooses not to become a part of the United States military for the above listed reasons, they should have the right to do so. Forcing them into the military by drafting them, when they oppose the idea of killing another human being by participating in a political cockfight, only proves that the comparison is similar to that of a dictator forcing kids and young men with impressionable minds into training camps to have their minds fixed and trained to kill the infedels. (Sorry for the run-on, :taking a breath
I do not oppose the military. I have family and friends in all four branches. I strongly support our troops and along with my sister I sent well over 200 care packages to different platoons during the 2nd Gulf war. (We continue to send them out) I've paid out of pocket for the shipping and campaigned to those in my neighborhood and places of business for donations of items for the packages. I had several other friends in combat areas in Iraq that I kept tabs on through their spouses, comforting and reassuring their loved ones, even to the point of taking a week off of work and flying to the other side of the country to comfort my friend whose husband was in Iraq. I have incredible respect for our men and women in uniform.
I simply oppose drafting people into the military when they don't believe in the cause we are fighting for.
To insinuate that I (and others) don't know the purpose of the Army is insulting, (not to mention irrelavant to this thread) you have no idea who you're talking to, where they come from and you're oblivious to the fact that though you may have this opinion, others might have opposing opinions. Use inflamatory remarks all you want. They won't get you any farther than the flamer's ward.
P.S. That's just MY opinion.


Old Post 11-18-2003 02:38 PM
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MrJukoVette
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post #47  quote:

Whatever chelktty.

Old Post 11-18-2003 03:39 PM
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