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Bluto

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post #1  quote:



Okay... who in the crap is Andrea Yates?

Don't make me Google it.

-HECK!


Old Post 07-26-2006 08:20 PM
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post #2  quote:

She's the one who drowned her 5 children, in the bathtub.

Old Post 07-26-2006 08:27 PM
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post #3  quote:

Lord, and she's not going to go to jail?

Of course you are insane if you kill 5 of your children. If you were sane and did that then you should be put in a mental institution. Justice system muffs it again.

-HECK!


Old Post 07-26-2006 08:49 PM
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post #4  quote:

Weird thing is her husband was all "yeah she's crazy, the mental institution is the way to go" i woulda been all "JAIL, SEND HER TO JAIL."

Old Post 07-26-2006 09:11 PM
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post #5  quote:

Not even. Read the verdict and then the judge should shoot her in the head with a potato gun to start. If she lives, it's time for ants in the pants.

-HECK!


Old Post 07-26-2006 09:21 PM
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post #6  quote:

Put him on trial because she kept getting pregnant? That led to stress which made her committ murder? Maybe in Bizarro world.

She could have gone on the pill, had her tubes tied, left him, make him wear a condom, whatever.

Finger pointing poopola that is.

-HECK!


Old Post 07-26-2006 09:44 PM
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post #7  quote:

She commited a crime... a very heinous crime. She doesn't deserve any help. She deserves DEATH! Period.

Old Post 07-26-2006 10:28 PM
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Phalaris
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post #8  quote:

quote:
HECK! said this in post #8 :
Put him on trial because she kept getting pregnant? That led to stress which made her committ murder? Maybe in Bizarro world.

She could have gone on the pill, had her tubes tied, left him, make him wear a condom, whatever.

Finger pointing poopola that is.

-HECK!


Wow, you really do need to google this topic. Do you think people who follow religions like the religion that Rusty Yates followed use birth control? Or let their wife make important decisions?

Remember the guy who made his wife and several children live in a small, crowded bus, because of the "teachings" of the religious freaks that he followed - and introduced his wife to? That he only moved her out of said bus and into a normal house at the desperate behest of her family? The same idiot who left his wife, who had had a psychotic break after the birth of child #4, had been institutionalized and was on medication, in charge of small children? Not only that, despite the doctor telling him that having any more children would be very dangerous for his wife (because people who suffer severe issues like this after childbirth are very likely to have recurrences if they have more children) off he went in his quest to "have as many children as god would allow?"

At that point, Andrea Yates was not in a position to be making responsible choices. The people who should have cared about her - and been caring for her - made the wrong choices for her. The guy left her alone with five young children despite her well-demonstrated mental state at the time. He is the one who is responsible for what happened to those children, since he was the party involved who still had some mental capacity for making responsible choices. Andrea Yates should not have been left home in charge of house plants. She was a wreck because she believed in his religion, had duly borne all the children he could impregnate her with while following it, and had was suffering very real psychiatric issues as a result of both.


Old Post 07-28-2006 04:10 AM
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post #9  quote:

Is "inflicting emotional abuse" actually a crime? I'll have to look that one up. The guy's a dink, that's for sure, but the woman herself had a responsibility to the children she bore. If he made her insane, then there was a point where she was completely aware of what was going on around her, and she just decided to go with the flow anyway...

I have to agree that she's insane though. I mean, a sane person usually doesn't drown kids. Adults, perhaps, but not kids.


Old Post 07-28-2006 04:19 AM
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post #10  quote:

First off...I dont care what religion someone is...if a woman doesnt want to get pregnant, then she shouldnt and should open her mouth and say something. Women arent living in the day where we bow to our men anymore. So, to whomever, spare me the speech about that b.s.

The fact remains that we dont put someone on trial for fathering a child.

They charged her for three out of the five...I say put her back on trial and charge her with the other two...especially the oldest one...you know, the one that fought tooth and nail to stay alive but lost out in the end.

It makes me sick to think that this woman is only getting hospital time and will never truly pay for the crimes she committed.

Rusty Yates didnt kill his children.

Phalaris...no offense..but you seem to be blaming everyone else BUT Andrea Yates. Every murderer always has a sob story to tell. Should we have let all of them go and put their family members or whomever on trial because they did the murderer wrong? No..we put the murderers away.

The fact remains that the insanity plea means that the persons state of mind at the time of the crime made it impossible for that person to have necessary intent that would satisfy the legal definition of their crime. They had to NOT know right from wrong at THAT time. The fact that she planned it and had that bath ready and waited for Rusty to leave, means she KNEW it was wrong!

You want to scream justice....and blame everyone but her...but where is the justice for her children...especially the older ones who fought for their lives?

So...okay, she goes to a mental hospital...I say if in five years, they find her to be "okay" then send her back and let her serve out the rest of her time in prison.

She is a murderer no matter how you slice it.


Old Post 07-28-2006 05:00 AM
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post #11  quote:

Ditto to everything that mystic just said!

Old Post 07-28-2006 05:03 AM
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post #12  quote:

quote:
gaboman said this in post #11 :
Is "inflicting emotional abuse" actually a crime? I'll have to look that one up. The guy's a dink, that's for sure, but the woman herself had a responsibility to the children she bore. If he made her insane, then there was a point where she was completely aware of what was going on around her, and she just decided to go with the flow anyway...


As near as I can tell, the only crime Andrea Yates committed was having the sort of personality that made her susceptible to belief in whacked religions. I expect that she was probably eager to please, compliant and unquestioning, traits typical of people I've known who got caught up in cultish religions. It's easy for us here on the nice, sane outside to question why she didn't cut and run - I promise that it would've been pointless to suggest birth control - but she actually believed this stuff.

She believed that the life her husband was dictating was god's will and to do otherwise would be failing to do god's will. This is a fundamental point of the whole issue and if you don't understand why some people will do, believe and/or accept astonishing things because they think it's "god's will," you're not going to understand why Andrea put up with the horrific conditions inflicted upon her by her husband. There's a great quote from a letter written to Andrea by the wife of the religious figure they followed: "Life is so short. It is so very cruel. It is so lonely and empty. You must accept the reality that this life is under the curse of sin and death." She's being told that life is supposed to be miserable and part of it, of course, is due to the curse of the sin of Eve.

I'm not saying that everyone who believes in cult religions like this one kill all their kids. By all accounts, the deaths of the Yates children is a tragic combination of a couple's belief in a cult religion that teaches a doctrine of damnation and physical psychiatric issues which were worsened by post-partum psychosis. Andrea, who already had a lengthy history of suicide attempts, institutionalizations and medications, had just gone off antipsychotic medications within about two weeks of when the children were drowned. A friend testified at the trial that prior to the drownings, she saw Andrea in a state when she was unable to take care of herself - she was disgustingly dirty, talking about "the darkness" and acting oddly. There are many crimes that went on here. The most critical one was leaving someone without full possession of their faculties alone in a house full of small children, and Rusty is 100% guilty of that.


Old Post 07-28-2006 05:14 AM
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post #13  quote:

quote:
mystic said this in post #12 :
First off...I dont care what religion someone is...if a woman doesnt want to get pregnant, then she shouldnt and should open her mouth and say something. Women arent living in the day where we bow to our men anymore. So, to whomever, spare me the speech about that b.s.
...

Phalaris...no offense..but you seem to be blaming everyone else BUT Andrea Yates.


Mystic, you and I are living in a place and time where we don't have to bow to man's every demand and whim. Thank whatever you believe in that you were born in the US in the 20th century to a family without extreme religious beliefs and did not manage to entangle yourself later on in any such things.

However, that doesn't change the fact that many people living in other places, times and cultures buy into the literal reading of the religious texts that make the foundation of the judaeo-christian-islam beliefs and within those writings, it is stated very clearly, to those who choose to interpret it that way, that women were created in a secondary role to man and, moreover, bear the responsibility for introducing sin. There are those who believe this to this day, and there are entire cultures - islam in particular comes to mind - which are still medieval hardcore when it comes to women's place in society.

Don't airily assume that all women everywhere have the right, understand the right, and stand up for the right, to differ from what the men in their lives, be they husbands, fathers or brothers, tell them what they must do. It's very American to assume that our modern-day sensibilities, freedoms and rights are universally accepted as proper, inherent and appropriate. It's one of the reasons that whole cultures hate us for our immorality, but that's a whole other topic.

There are people who get involved in fringe religions who accept things as right and proper that you and I think are ridiculous. Did Andrea leave when Rusty said that they would live the "simple life" promoted by their religious leader and live with several small children in a 350 square foot bus? Apparently, all she did was beat the hell out of herself mentally for failing to be an ideal mother under these circumstances. Why then do you expect her to stand up to her husband - whom she believes she is supposed to obey without question - and suggest that they shouldn't have more kids?

I can blame Andrea for physically drowning the children. There's no doubt that she did. But what I, and most of those who share my position, say, is that she was far removed from being in a position to be responsible for it. "Not guilty by reason of insanity" exists because we live in an enlightened time when we realize that someone with an improperly managed mental illness may not be able to bear responsibility for their actions. In this case, we have someone with a lengthy history of mental disorders that were made worse by the actions - and inactions - of someone said person believed she must obey, left unattended with defenseless chidren. Was Andrea responsible for being left in a position where she could harm her children? I do not believe so, and neither, apparently, did the jury. I am absolutely sure that if Rusty had not left someone who should have been under medical treatment alone with small children, those children would be alive today.


Old Post 07-28-2006 05:45 AM
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post #14  quote:

quote:
Phalaris said this in post #14 :


As near as I can tell, the only crime Andrea Yates committed was having the sort of personality that made her susceptible to belief in whacked religions.



There are many crimes that went on here. The most critical one was leaving someone without full possession of their faculties alone in a house full of small children, and Rusty is 100% guilty of that.



These two sentences are absolute rubbish!

Its unfathomable that you would say the only crime for her is that her personality was wacky...and then say Rusty has the most critical crime of all.

I dont even know what to say to your words...but to perhaps say they are: a joke? A mess? Ones that dont even perceive the reality of the situation?

Somehow...youve managed to forget about the CHILDREN!!!!! You know, the dead ones! The ones SHE murdered!

The MURDER of these children, my friend, is the most critical crime of all!!!

Unbeliveable!

Hell, I give up...open up the cages and let them all leave. The rest of us will serve their time for them because...somehow, the criminals will find a way to put all the blame on everyone else but themselves...and no offense, but its people like you that will allow them to walk away while you tell the rest of us we are guilty.


Old Post 07-28-2006 05:46 AM
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post #15  quote:

quote:
Phalaris said this in post #16 :
I can blame Andrea for physically drowning the children. There's no doubt that she did. But what I, and most of those who share my position, say, is that she was far removed from being in a position to be responsible for it. "Not guilty by reason of insanity" exists because we live in an enlightened time when we realize that someone with an improperly managed mental illness may not be able to bear responsibility for their actions.


One must fit the definition of legal insanity...if one defines it correctly, and then one looks at the facts of this crime...one should have never found her insane.

If we all defined this the way you obviously have...all murderers would be walking free under your definition. See, there's a reason why this term is legally defined.

She planned it...she waited...and she killed. In my book, that knowing its wrong and premeditated murder.

Son of Sam killed because a dog told him to do it....if you ask me, he belongs in jail....if one asks you, we should let Berkowitz go and put the damn dog behind bars.


Old Post 07-28-2006 05:52 AM
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post #16  quote:

quote:
Phalaris said this in post #16 :


Mystic, you and I are living in a place and time where we don't have to bow to man's every demand and whim. Thank whatever you believe in that you were born in the US in the 20th century to a family without extreme religious beliefs and did not manage to entangle yourself later on in any such things.



I don't think that Andrea Yates drowned her children in a pool or bathtub because she was overwhelmed and had too many children. I believe that she was emotionally instable and killed her children because she was on a low key; meaning that she felt depressed about life and her children at that moment and wanted to kill them. She was on so many medications, horrible medications that increased her depression and illness.

However, I do think that she should go to jail because was guilty of the crime and knew exactly what she was doing at the time.
It maybe that she was manipulated by the Roman Catholic church to not use birth control and to have as many children as "God pleases" but I don't think that that is a plausible excuse to not use birth control. IF you are a strong woman and had an independent mind, you would use birth control and not let anyone else to you differently. If Andrea Yates is that stupid and lets her husband tell her how many children she should have, then she needs to leave him.
I think that women regardless of their religion, should think for themselves regarding child birth.


Old Post 07-28-2006 06:56 AM
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post #17  quote:

quote:
mystic said this in post #18 :

If we all defined this the way you obviously have...all murderers would be walking free under your definition. See, there's a reason why this term is legally defined.


It's obvious in your atypically noneloquent response that you have strong feelings on this topic. What may not be evident in my posts is that I have personal experience to understand what horrific things pregnancy can do to your mind. So I have strong feelings on this topic also. That could've been me, if childless-by-choice wasn't a choice, like it isn't for those who believe in the barbaric demands of literal readings of certain major religious texts of the world. I guess you live in a place where no one believes that stuff and no one suffers problems like those Andrea suffered as a result of the pregnancies she believed she had no choice but to have.

That must be a nice place, but back here on planet Earth, both of these things are real.

There's little point in arguing further but I will anyway.

We have a person who was in and out of mental institutions, on and off medications, with a history of violent visions and suicide attempts. Medical professionals accurately predicted total disaster if the Yates maintained their present course. Less than two months before the drownings, Andrea was a described as being a significant risk to herself and others. Yet, there she was, alone in a house with small children - less than two weeks after being taken off antipsychotics. I'm not a lawyer and I don't really give a rat's hind end what the legalese definitions are. The culpable party here is the person who left someone who should've been under medical treatment alone with the kids. What kind of moron would do that? We know, thanks to this tragedy, exactly what kind of moron would. His name is Rusty Yates.

If he had left his kids alone at Penn Station at midnight, the whole world would consider him to be an irresponsible, miserable excuse for a parent. So why doesn't anyone seem to think that leaving his kids alone with his wife was anything but irresponsible and dangerous? Rusty was not unaware of his wife's issues; in fact, just two days earlier, he had told the doctor that she wasn't doing better. Yet he left for work that morning thinking it was OK for his mentally troubled wife, who was doing poorly since recently being taken off some of her medications, to be left alone with the kids. That is criminal negligence as far as I'm concerned.

Do I have sympathy for Rusty, who had to bury his kids? Not a bit. The only sympathetic party here are the kids themselves. Andrea got into this mess by being weak-minded and Rusty is a blind fool, but given that he at least was able to hold down a job while his wife was in and out of psychiatric care, he's the closest thing to a responsible party in this household. Whether it was denial or stupidity that convinced him that Andrea, fresh out of the mental institution, should be at home alone with the kids, he left her there and left his kids in harm's way. Whether it was belief or mulish stubbornness that convinced him that having more kids was the right thing to do after the doctor told them not to, it was he who had not recently been under medical care and should've had been the one to make the responsible decision to stop.

See, that's the tricky thing about responsibility. Sometimes responsibility is not about who committed the action but about who could've, and should've, prevented the action. Whenever you are dealing with people who are not able to make rational, responsible decisions on their own, there should be someone, or some entity, in a position to be responsible for that individual. A parent is responsible for the actions of a minor. Rusty - particularly since he reportedly limited his wife's contact with the outside world - should've been responsible for her. Surely he had no idea that she was capable of killing the children - even I don't think that of him - but she was apparently at this time barely able to take care of her own personal hygiene and had no business looking after young children.

Son of Sam is probably not a good comparison, since I don't believe that he was left unattended with his victims by someone who was aware of his history and had the power to intervene.


Old Post 07-28-2006 07:22 AM
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post #18  quote:

Forget jail. Fill up a tub, throw her a$$ in and hold her under. Let her feel what those kids felt as they looked up into their own mothers face and watched her take thier life for NO REASON! But instead of killing her with drowning, just hold her long enough to scare the hell out of her, and do that every single solitary day. THEN we'll talk about her being insane.

Edit: I'm sorry but I have 4 kids and there are times when I have felt like I wanted to run away and never come back. I just cannot justify killing your kids just cause your stressed out because you have too many. She wasn't the least bit insane (In my opinion. Your milage may vary). There were thousands of other options she could have taken. THOUSANDS.

I won't argue about this. It's how I feel and the second I saw that verdict I held all four of my kids and held on to them tight.


Old Post 07-28-2006 07:30 AM
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post #19  quote:

quote:
Phalaris said this in post #20 :


It's obvious in your atypically noneloquent response that you have strong feelings on this topic. What may not be evident in my posts is that I have personal experience to understand what horrific things pregnancy can do to your mind. So I have strong feelings on this topic also. That could've been me, if childless-by-choice wasn't a choice, like it isn't for those who believe in the barbaric demands of literal readings of certain major religious texts of the world. I guess you live in a place where no one believes that stuff and no one suffers problems like those Andrea suffered as a result of the pregnancies she believed she had no choice but to have.

I live in the real world as you do....what I do, is look at the fact at hand...the definition of insanity as is stated by our law. She didnt fit it...nothing else to argue. You cannot put yourself in her position because you didnt kill your kid. People suffer from depression, etc, everyday. Youre making excuses for something in which the facts and the definition dont coincide. Again, nothing to argue.

That must be a nice place, but back here on planet Earth, both of these things are real.

Real issues, yes...but again, the facts dont fit the plea. You know, if you said that it did to yourself long enough, I guess you would believe that, but regardless, it doesnt work. BTW...I live on earth...and I live in the real world, not some clouded version of what I interpret the world to be.

There's little point in arguing further but I will anyway.

I was thinking the same thing.

I'm not a lawyer and I don't really give a rat's hind end what the legalese definitions are.

And thats why we have losers running around on the streets because people like yourself dont give a rats patootie about the damn law. I care about the law because thats my life. We legally define things so that not everyone can use this plea and because if we didnt define it, we would say every murderer is insane and belongs in a mental institution.

I notice that you said I cannot use the Son of Sam in this case, but I can...because as you say, you dont care about the legal definition of insanity...and Berkowitz, under your perception of the definition, should also be in a hospital. For that matter all murderers should. he had issues too...why is he different in your view now? Because you didnt experience his feelings. Give me a break.



The culpable party here is the person who left someone who should've been under medical treatment alone with the kids. What kind of moron would do that? We know, thanks to this tragedy, exactly what kind of moron would. His name is Rusty Yates.

Funny, unless you were living in that house...Im not sure you are an expert on Rusty Yates. You say she had issues after the 4th kid...but I didnt see her killing those 4 kids. The doctors took her off the meds....not her husband. Last time I looked, he wasnt medically trained .

If he had left his kids alone at Penn Station at midnight, the whole world would consider him to be an irresponsible, miserable excuse for a parent. So why doesn't anyone seem to think that leaving his kids alone with his wife was anything but irresponsible and dangerous? Rusty was not unaware of his wife's issues; in fact, just two days earlier, he had told the doctor that she wasn't doing better. Yet he left for work that morning thinking it was OK for his mentally troubled wife, who was doing poorly since recently being taken off some of her medications, to be left alone with the kids. That is criminal negligence as far as I'm concerned.

So, put him in jail and put her on a pedestal??? Were you there? Maybe she looked fine that morning. Maybe she told him that she was fine and told him to leave. Unless you know the conversation in that house from that time until the MURDERS, then you are only taking a partial bit of something and turning it into some story that you conjured up.

Do I have sympathy for Rusty, who had to bury his kids? Not a bit.

Thats obvious, and yet so sad and pathetic that you would even say that

Surely he had no idea that she was capable of killing the children - even I don't think that of him - but she was apparently at this time barely able to take care of her own personal hygiene and had no business looking after young children.

You say that he could have never thought she was capable, but you find him in your mind to be criminally negligent??? Wow, what a completely massive contradiction you just threw out. Then again, if you say she should be free after murdering her children then why do I find it shocking that you would say he had no idea she could do this, yet find him to be worthy of jail time.

Son of Sam is probably not a good comparison, since I don't believe that he was left unattended with his victims by someone who was aware of his history and had the power to intervene.

Im not talking about Rusty Yates...Im talking about insanity, and your choosing of deinfitions to suit you.

Its obvious that I lost you in the analogy. The point was, and you said it yourself, you dont care about the laws and its definitions, you are choosing to use the definitions at your convenience....AND since that is unrealisitic, and you can only choose one way to apply it. Since you applied insanity as a convenient law for Mrs. Yates, then you have to afford that same law to everyone else.

I am sitting here wondering why I am arguing with someone who is interpreting the law in this bizarre type of way. If you dont care about the laws and cant even interpret our laws, then how can you argue the law? This is the result of your argument? A few unoriginal Rusty Yates stories combined with some personal unrelated and different episodes that you and Andrea Yates shared, and voila, a new law is born? Or should I say unlaw, since the law you have argued doesnt exist.




Last edited by mystic on 07-28-2006 at 09:15 AM |
Old Post 07-28-2006 08:50 AM
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post #20  quote:

quote:
Heavens11 said this in post #23 :
Listening to the trial and closing arguments, both the prosecution and defense agreed that she knew that what she did was illegal. The defense, however, argued that her insanity led her to drown her children because she believed she was saving them from going to hell.


I wonder, who is now going to save her from going there herself?

Well....the fact that they agreed that she knew what she was doing was illegal, makes it a moot case for pleading insanity...but thats neither here nor there anymore since its all been said and done by some loopy jury.


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post #21  quote:

How can ANYONE release a person who killed her children?

Old Post 07-28-2006 08:16 PM
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post #22  quote:

If it would have been the father he would be cooking eggs in his lap while on the electric chair.

I don't see how on Earth this perversion of justice can be tolerated.

-HECK!


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post #23  quote:

He SHOULD take her back. I don't care if she KNEW that it was wrong. She still MURDERED her children.

Damn... if I go up to our boxes of snacks here at work, and I take something without paying for it, I KNOW that I'm doing wrong. If I still take it, and don't put money in, then I've commited a crime. It might not be something like murder... but if you willingly break the law, you should HAVE TO pay the consequences.


Old Post 07-28-2006 10:32 PM
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post #24  quote:

quote:
HECK! said this in post #27 :
If it would have been the father he would be cooking eggs in his lap while on the electric chair.

I don't see how on Earth this perversion of justice can be tolerated.

-HECK!


How correct you are!


quote:
Heavens11 said this in post #28 :
Well, there are still the other two children with which to contend (this trial was only on three of the five). The Harris County District Attorney has stated he may very well take her back to court.


I said earlier that I hoped they would do this. I think they should. I think if they take her to court for the older children it might be harder for a jury to sympathize with her. The fight that the oldest put up with...well, I cant even imagine what he went through.


quote:
Lawless said this in post #29 :
if you willingly break the law, you should HAVE TO pay the consequences.


Absolutely!


Old Post 07-28-2006 11:24 PM
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post #25  quote:

quote:
Heavens11 said this in post #28 :
Well, there are still the other two children with which to contend (this trial was only on three of the five). The Harris County District Attorney has stated he may very well take her back to court.
Unfortunately, with her being found not-guilty for reason of insanity, she has a good chance of being found "unfit to stand trial."

This chick should definitely get her fricken tubes tied, whether she's in prison, hospital or whatever.


Old Post 07-31-2006 07:23 AM
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