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Marc Flemming
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Post Vatican Calls for Keeping Schiavo Alive post #1  quote:



quote:
Source: AP

The Vatican newspaper on Monday criticized the removal of a feeding tube from a brain-damaged Florida woman, saying nobody can claim the right to decide whether a human being lives or dies.

"Who can, before God and humanity, pretend with impunity to claim such a right?" L'Osservatore Romano said. "Who ó and on the basis of which criteria ó can establish to whom the 'privilege' to live should be given?"


The remarks from the Vatican paper, which reflected earlier comments from several Vatican prelates, came after the U.S. Congress passed a law in an emergency session giving Terri Schiavo's parents the right to file suit in federal court over the withdrawal of nourishment and medical treatment needed to sustain their daughter. President Bush has signed the bill.


"Who can judge the dignity and sacredness of the life of a human being, made in the image and likeness of God? Who can decide to pull the plug as if we were talking about a broken or out of order household appliance?" the paper said.


"In a Miami hospital there's a woman who is about to die from hunger and thirst. There is the slow dying of a person ó not a 'vegetable' ó which an impotent world is witnessing through TV and newspapers."


The 41-year-old woman's feeding tube was removed Friday on a Florida judge's order. Schiavo could linger for one or two weeks if the tube is not reinserted ó as has happened twice before, once on a judge's order and once after Gov. Jeb Bush signed "Terri's Law," which was later declared unconstitutional.


The paper said that the case "is shaking America" but added that "in the ongoing debate, the lowest-level political controversy and the subtle game of legal tricks often end up prevailing."


Schiavo suffered severe brain damage 15 years ago. Her husband says Schiavo told him she would not want to be kept alive in a vegetative state. Her parents say she needs treatment and another opportunity for life.


"Terri's long, heartbreaking agony today is the agony of the meaning of God, the lord and creator of life," the paper concluded. "It is the agony of the love that can bend over the frail and needy. It is the agony of mankind."


Earlier this month, the Vatican's point man on bioethical issues, Monsignor Elio Sgreccia, said removing Schiavo's breathing tube would be a direct act of euthanasia and "a pitiless way to kill."



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oneofpeace
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post #2  quote:

quote:

The Vatican newspaper on Monday criticized the removal of a feeding tube from a brain-damaged Florida woman, saying nobody can claim the right to decide whether a human being lives or dies.



Certainly no surprise here.

Well isn't this exactly what they are doing by demanding the tube stay inserted? Her body certainly cannot sustain itself on its own so how is it that they can ask such a question?

Just preserve life because it can be preserved I guess. And somehow they believe that it's the will of God to sustain her life in this condition. Go figure.


Old Post 03-21-2005 06:20 PM
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post #3  quote:

God could very easily perform a miracle while she has the feeding tube out.

Is that His will in this case?


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post #4  quote:

And so why is the Vatican, once again, sticking their noses into political matters in the United States? or into anyone elses for that matter?
Since when is the United States a puppet of Rome?

quote:
Earlier this month, the Vatican's point man on bioethical issues, Monsignor Elio Sgreccia, said removing Schiavo's breathing tube would be a direct act of euthanasia and "a pitiless way to kill."


To the Vatican: Ye of little faith....If God can restore her health with the feeding tube...He sho nuff can do it without.


Old Post 03-21-2005 07:07 PM
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post #5  quote:

quote:
oneofpeace said this in post #2 :
Well isn't this exactly what they are doing by demanding the tube stay inserted? Her body certainly cannot sustain itself on its own so how is it that they can ask such a question?


I asked this same question on another thread...Im glad someone else sees it the same way!


quote:
sowhatsthetruth said this in post #3 :
God could very easily perform a miracle while she has the feeding tube out.


Exactly!!!...and that is what I was talking about last night...in so many words that is.


quote:
sowhatsthetruth said this in post #4 :
And so why is the Vatican, once again, sticking their noses into political matters in the United States? or into anyone elses for that matter?
Since when is the United States a puppet of Rome?

To the Vatican: Ye of little faith....If God can restore her health with the feeding tube...He sho nuff can do it without.


I knew there would come a time when we would finally agree on something!


Old Post 03-21-2005 09:02 PM
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post #6  quote:

If there was going to be a MIRACLE performed, I think that it would have been a long time ago!!!

And there is NO REASON why the Vatican should be getting involved. This is ALL a load of crap. Once again, religion, and politics, are getting involved where they shouldn't.


Old Post 03-21-2005 09:45 PM
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post #7  quote:

quote:
mystic said this in post #5 :


I knew there would come a time when we would finally agree on something!


Will the miracles never cease.


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post #8  quote:

Are Terri and her family religious? Unless she is a follower of the Church, I don't see what the Vatican could possibly have to do with ANYTHING in this case.

Old Post 03-22-2005 02:49 AM
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fuscia is Away
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post #9  quote:

Terri's parents are Catholic, and according to Michael, Terri was Catholic but not very religious.

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nikiTa
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post #10  quote:

quote:
from Terri's mother
If Terri's tube is removed she will go to purgatory.


Is that what this is all about?
Then they will be forced to pay indulgences to get her out??? Whatttt?


Old Post 03-22-2005 04:33 AM
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post #11  quote:

I'm sorry... but what a severe load of CRAP!! Is her mother that brain dead, to believe that? Where does the bible state THAT?!??? ARGH! This is why gov't and religion shouldn't be involved!!! CRAP CRAP CRAP!

Old Post 03-22-2005 04:35 AM
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post #12  quote:

The Catholic Church should get involved, Terri is Catholic,she received Holy Communion thru her feeding tube and then wine in her mouth with a dropper. Communion again, She also received the Annointingof the sick or better known as last Rites.

All you non Catholics just love to have something to squawk about the Cathoics.

Here is the official response and it is very clear on its position:

Press Misrepresents Catholic Teaching on End of Life Issues
NewsMax.com Wires
Wednesday, March 30, 2005
The prominence of the Terri Schiavo case has brought unprecedented media attention to the Catholic Church's teaching on end-of-life issues. But media portrayals of Church teaching are often inaccurate and misleading, according to two prominent Catholic ethicists.

Father Thomas Williams, dean of the theology department of Regina Apostolorum Pontifical University, and Richard Doerflinger, Deputy Director of the Secretariat for Pro-Life Activities at the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, both said the Church makes a distinction between ordinary and extraordinary care. The first is always required while the second is not.
Story Continues Below



"The Church teaches that we have a moral obligation to support life," Doerflinger said. "That obligation has limits. People talk about ordinary and extraordinary means. That just means that when the efforts to sustain life start doing more harm than good to the patient the moral obligation ceases to apply. Even then you should never abandon a patient and never deny them the basic care owed to everyone because of their human dignity."
Father Williams quotes from Pope John Paul II's 1995 encyclical, The Gospel of Life, when trying to define extraordinary means.

"The Pope uses two sets of terms. For treatment to be considered extraordinary death must be 'imminent and inevitable' and the treatment would result in 'precarious and burdensome prolongation of life,'" he said. An example might be a cancer victim who, after several rounds of treatment, has found chemotherapy to be ineffective and foregoes the treatment in order to avoid its side effects.

Father Williams and Doerflinger said that in some instances it can be extremely difficult to determine the difference between extraordinary and ordinary care and that in such instances people must follow their conscience. But both men said the Schiavo case is clear cut.

"From a Catholic perspective, this is an open and shut case," Father Williams said. According to Doerflinger, "food and water should always be seen as basic care," a teaching made abundantly clear in an address by Pope John Paul II in March, 2004, he said.

It seems some of you anti Catholics would prefer the Holy Father stay out of the business of its flock. Thats not what Jesus preaches so look at it this way, We are against the removal of the feeding tube and declare that food and water are essential to life.

Delta

."


Old Post 03-30-2005 06:03 PM
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nikiTa
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post #13  quote:

So the RCC and the far Christian right have the same agenda!

Surprise!


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post #14  quote:

Agenda there is no AGENDA T it is the basic teachings of our Church.

What about the AGENDA of your Church? Do they feel that removing the tube is the right thing? Or are they waiting for a miracle before this woman goes thru the agonies of dying?

Do you know what is happening in her body as we speak?
Her organs are shutting down one by one. Its amazing she has lasted this long. My wish now is for God to take her and release her from her earthly body and pain. They are giving her Morphine,did you know that?

She is slowly disintegrating, no hydration means skin is falling off, her organs one by one will shut down as water is 98% of the total body weight.

She is suffering like Our LOrd did.

No excuse for this and how do you explain the Govtmt getting into this situation? Thats oK but the Catholic opinion is not. Phooey T.

I am Catholic and will print the truth
D


Old Post 03-30-2005 06:15 PM
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nikiTa
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post #15  quote:

I have posted our view of this already on this forum.

So what's the RCC gonna do if John Paul needs to be on life support? Keep him on it for another 10-20 years?

And who will your pope be in the interim...he'd still be alive but nonfunctional?

We as Christians are the last people who should be afraid of death....why are these people focusing on physical life?....eternal life is more important for Christians.

And if she's saved...why keep her vegitative for another 50 years when she can be with Jesus in heaven straightaway.

That's just selfish and cruel!


Old Post 03-30-2005 06:22 PM
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post #16  quote:

Well I am sorry I missed your post. However the waiting is gonna be over shortly as she is in rapid heartbeat. Thats what happened to my Mom.

As far as Our Pope is concerned, He has enough brain power to step aside if he is unable to do his duties or over see them.

Believe me there are many many Cardinals licking their chops now as the Pope is receiving food thru a nasal feeding tube.
Only God knows what is to happen so I don't venture a guess.

D


Old Post 03-30-2005 06:55 PM
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post #17  quote:

quote:
Delta wrote
Do you know what is happening in her body as we speak?
Her organs are shutting down one by one. Its amazing she has lasted this long. My wish now is for God to take her and release her from her earthly body and pain. They are giving her Morphine,did you know that?


How do you suppose her life end, eutharize her? Why wonít they simply accept that this was her wish? Instead, they slam them for removing the tube and her suffering. When they give her morphine, they slam them for doing that as well.

It is miserably evident that they will accuse them of anything, even dredging up comparisons to Hitler because they disagree with it. The morphine is given just in case but doctors do not believe sheís feeling any hunger. How could she when she hasnít had solid food for a decade Ĺ?

quote:

She is slowly disintegrating, no hydration means skin is falling off, her organs one by one will shut down as water is 98% of the total body weight.


Now this is basic health 101 here. First, skin falls off everyone whether hydrated or not. We shed pounds of skin during our lifetime.

Secondly, water makes up approximately 2/3 of the human body not 98%. Itís obvious you are falling for all the propagandarized nonsense chapeau coming from the far right winged demagogs. They will stop at nothing while claiming to be the morally just of the universe.

quote:

She is suffering like Our LOrd did.

WARNING INCOMING!!!!!

I donít mean to offend here but I have to be direct.

I donít know what ďLordĒ your speaking of but if youíre talking about Jesus (Yashua) then I donít believe Iíve ever seen a more asinine statement as this and itís only the Catholics that are making this ridiculous comparison.

The sad part is that you have fallen for this rhetoric without waver simply because it came from the Vatican or itís the ďofficial Catholic positionĒ. Can any of you think for yourselves for a few moments? Why is it that the Vatican can speak for all of RC Catholicism? Can you discern any of this on your own?

From this chapeau youíve given here, anyone can hear the same just by turning on CNN or FOX and listen to the far right winged politics at any given hour of the day on their TV sets. I challenge you to be original in thought. If you disagree, state why you do so without sounding like an echo of those using this issue as a political catapult to further their agenda.

Sorry but sometimes I can be brazen and direct to a fault at times but I think this one called for it.


Old Post 03-30-2005 07:02 PM
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fuscia is Away
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post #18  quote:

Many Christians find the statement that is out there that "Terri is suffering like our Lord" offensive. Jesus was crucified on a cross. He had his full mental capabilities and was acutely aware of what was going on, he had people watching his suffering, and he did not have morphine. Terri is simply NOT there. She is not being tortured. She is drifting off as her body shuts down.

Old Post 03-30-2005 07:53 PM
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post #19  quote:

quote:
oneofpeace said this in post #17 :


How do you suppose her life end, eutharize her? Why wonít they simply accept that this was her wish? Instead, they slam them for removing the tube and her suffering. When they give her morphine, they slam them for doing that as well.

It is miserably evident that they will accuse them of anything, even dredging up comparisons to Hitler because they disagree with it. The morphine is given just in case but doctors do not believe sheís feeling any hunger. How could she when she hasnít had solid food for a decade Ĺ?



Now this is basic health 101 here. First, skin falls off everyone whether hydrated or not. We shed pounds of skin during our lifetime.

Secondly, water makes up approximately 2/3 of the human body not 98%. Itís obvious you are falling for all the propagandarized nonsense chapeau coming from the far right winged demagogs. They will stop at nothing while claiming to be the morally just of the universe.


WARNING INCOMING!!!!!

I donít mean to offend here but I have to be direct.

I donít know what ďLordĒ your speaking of but if youíre talking about Jesus (Yashua) then I donít believe Iíve ever seen a more asinine statement as this and itís only the Catholics that are making this ridiculous comparison.

The sad part is that you have fallen for this rhetoric without waver simply because it came from the Vatican or itís the ďofficial Catholic positionĒ. Can any of you think for yourselves for a few moments? Why is it that the Vatican can speak for all of RC Catholicism? Can you discern any of this on your own?

From this chapeau youíve given here, anyone can hear the same just by turning on CNN or FOX and listen to the far right winged politics at any given hour of the day on their TV sets. I challenge you to be original in thought. If you disagree, state why you do so without sounding like an echo of those using this issue as a political catapult to further their agenda.

Sorry but sometimes I can be brazen and direct to a fault at times but I think this one called for it.


People people I think for myself. Any one who knows me knows that fact. For sure and sometimes too much.Ha Ha.

Now Comparing Terri's suffering with Jesus's was a bit over the top and I am sorry for that statement.

I do not believe all that comes out of Fox or Larry King or any of the other shows. I get my information from reputable journalists. Reputable News Magazines for which I pay to subscribe.

I could have gone on and quoted the rest of the article but it would bore you righteous ones, whom think only your opinions are the correct ones. Talk about hypocritical Shame on you!.

Ihappened to believe in my heart that to withdraw food and water from Teri was a manipulative situation involving her husbands wishes. It really brings to the forefront what a living will is all about.
Anything you may say to a spouse or companion is not worth a cent in the courts as we have learned.

The Parents have just been turned down again,so all you people who think she is not suffering or should be abandoned have won.

I pray only that she goes quickly and ends this travesty of justice.
One of PEACE you sure belabored your screen name, but its healthy to get your feelings out so I don't mind.

Stay Cool.
D


Old Post 03-30-2005 08:58 PM
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post #20  quote:

quote:
fuscia said this in post #18 :
Many Christians find the statement that is out there that "Terri is suffering like our Lord" offensive. Jesus was crucified on a cross. He had his full mental capabilities and was acutely aware of what was going on, he had people watching his suffering, and he did not have morphine. Terri is simply NOT there. She is not being tortured. She is drifting off as her body shuts down.


You think what you want about her condition and I have said I was out of line comparing her to Jesus, Carried away with the drama of the situation

Saying Terri is not "there" is a rather outspoken comment on a condition that has been debated for weeks.

If the Government had thought She was "NOtThere" would they have mad it such an issue.

I would take more umbrages at the Govtmt getting involved then for the Pope being quoted for something he stated in 1995 about Life.

But Se Li Vie, You all will think against the Catholics Right to life no matter what one humble poster thinks.
D


Old Post 03-30-2005 09:07 PM
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post #21  quote:

quote:
I get my information from reputable journalists.


What "information" do we need on this and why do we even "need" it.
This is a personal private matter that hundreds and thousands of people go through every year.

It should have been kept between the family....no the State courts....no the media....no the Christian right groups....no Congress....no the Vatican...no the US president...no the governor of Florida...no the Federal Courts....no the Supreme Court (the only smart ones in the group to stay out of it)...no back to the state courts....no the state police...no the local police.

Shew.


Old Post 03-30-2005 09:09 PM
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post #22  quote:

I agree but thats not what transpired. Hey have you figured out what Psyhogenic fugue is yet. I will pm you the answer.

D


Old Post 03-30-2005 09:18 PM
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post #23  quote:

You suffer from this?

"a dissociative disorder in which a person forgets who who they are and leaves home to creates a new life; during the fugue there is no memory of the former life; after recovering there is no memory for events during the dissociative state"

Did you move to create a new life?


Old Post 03-30-2005 09:23 PM
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post #24  quote:

WhAT? i FORGOT

D Yes it happended to me at Charlies death not to the extreme of creating a new life but trying to get away from theone I was living at the time.


Old Post 03-30-2005 09:31 PM
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post #25  quote:

quote:
mystic said this in post #23 :
You suffer from this?

"a dissociative disorder in which a person forgets who who they are and leaves home to creates a new life; during the fugue there is no memory of the former life; after recovering there is no memory for events during the dissociative state"

Did you move to create a new life?


Robert Ludlum based his character Jason Bourne on a person (I think he was a bishop) who suffered from this condition in late 1800s (or early 1900s, I am not sure).

M.


Old Post 03-30-2005 09:42 PM
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post #26  quote:

Ahhh so Delta you were alluding to my Bourne problems in the Iraq forum!
How interesting!

I must have been in one of my fugues and did not comprehend what in the world you were saying.

Clear as crystal....
until tomorrow.


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post #27  quote:

And Mystic, you've wondered about how I could do so many things in one life....so now you know!!!

There are ways to bring back the memory
when necessary.


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post #28  quote:

quote:
Delta wrote
Ihappened to believe in my heart that to withdraw food and water from Teri was a manipulative situation involving her husbands wishes.


Now this is more like it D. Sorry if I was a little rough.

However, what grounds do you believe that Terri is being manipulated? Are you accusing the husband? And if so, what does he possibly have to gain from manipulating her to her death?

This has already been debated in this forum. So many lies have been told, many by the Schindlers. Let me save you some trouble if youíre about to go here.

It wasnít for money since he has little left. He didnít abuse her as the Schindlers are suggesting and past accusations of a prior hospice nurse that he tried to kill her has been founded to be untrue. He did care for her greatly for 5 yrs after her incident and even took nursing classes to learn better how to care for her.


Old Post 03-30-2005 10:21 PM
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mystic
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post #29  quote:

quote:
Delta said this in post #24 :
WhAT? i FORGOT

D Yes it happended to me at Charlies death not to the extreme of creating a new life but trying to get away from theone I was living at the time.


Heh..I was just kidding.

quote:
sowhatsthetruth said this in post #27 :
And Mystic, you've wondered about how I could do so many things in one life....so now you know!!!



Well, it could be but I have to wonder.....

Maybe Delta's Psyhogenic fugue isnt the same as the Psychogenic fugue I termed?


Old Post 03-30-2005 10:34 PM
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post #30  quote:

quote:
oneofpeace said this in post #28 :


Now this is more like it D. Sorry if I was a little rough.

However, what grounds do you believe that Terri is being manipulated? Are you accusing the husband? And if so, what does he possibly have to gain from manipulating her to her death?

This has already been debated in this forum. So many lies have been told, many by the Schindlers. Let me save you some trouble if youíre about to go here.

It wasnít for money since he has little left. He didnít abuse her as the Schindlers are suggesting and past accusations of a prior hospice nurse that he tried to kill her has been founded to be untrue. He did care for her greatly for 5 yrs after her incident and even took nursing classes to learn better how to care for her.


Agreed!

The Schindler's definitely used the media AND the government to get people stirred up over this.

Im not saying that they are wrong for doing so....but I feel that they used the media to their advantage, and caused alot of rift amongst many people....and these people are now using that to further their own cause as well.

Its gotten out of hand...

I feel sorry for Michael Schiavo...he was unjustly ripped apart in the media.


Old Post 03-30-2005 10:39 PM
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