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chelktty
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post #91  quote:

quote:
devildog said this in post #86 :


Reeeeaaaally(Jim Carrey Voice)To my knowledge I am the only one who has Used the bill of rights to explain "rights". Ive stated that polls all over America feel a certain way. I have posted figures directly from the CDC.

This is laughable Devil, I've pointed out a fraction of your inconsistencies, I'm not going to delve into all of your past postings and remarks, I don't care to waste that much energy on your ridiculous notions. It's pretty clear to everyone but you about it so I'm not going to continue to feed into your BS.

It is a fact that gay marriage is against the law.

Really? I don't think there's been an amendment to the Constitution YET that clearly defines that same sex couples cannot be married. It simply says that marriage is between and man and a woman. It does not specify that same sex couples are excluded. So, under California law, it is not illegal.

Fact that the Mayor is in direct violation of said California Laws.

Yes I have also posted my opinion. I just can't remember one single "fact" posted by the other view.

I posted those for you too. You blatantly said that you weren't going to read through them.

I will admit that I did NOT open up the links to read the fishwrap someone supplied but if there are "facts" in there please cut & paste. Everything else is OPINION. And NO lie has been established. So just how do you claim that "evidence that the opposite is true". No wonder why the Dems claim Bush is a liar

Who said anything about Bush?

Can I assume most of you are Demo(n)crats?
That last question will tell a lot.

You know I find it amusing how you wonder off topic and take stabs in the dark about things completely unrelated. I can only assume that this is a feverish attempt to justify your weak arguments by declaring we must be a bunch of bleeding heart, tree hugging, liberal demo(n)crats, to paraphrase you. Interesting. How was the Rush Limbaugh show today?

P.S. I'm an Independant. Since you asked.




Old Post 02-18-2004 07:08 PM
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post #92  quote:

I'm an Independent too... But, I have hugged a tree before!

Old Post 02-18-2004 07:15 PM
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Kookaburra
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post #93  quote:

Sorry for the long post but it was a very long post I was answering.

quote:
Okay, I'm going to pull this thread back to Gay Marriage. The Mayor of San Francisco ordered the city clerks to issue marriage certificates to same-sex couples based on the California State Constitution, which states equal treatment for all Californians. That equal treatment in the California Constitution is in conflict with the man and a woman only marriage law.


It's always going to come down to a matter of interpretation, which is why several states are acting to get this clarified so there will be no denying what the Constitution reads. We'll have to wait and see what happens.

Also, we are living in a democracy which is suppose to be a majority rules. If the majority of Americans want same-sex marriage, then those who oppose will have to live with the results.

If the majority of Americans don't want it, then those who oppose will also have to live with the results.

That's why we have a voting system set up. Now the question is going to be, are both sides going to play fair? That is, are radical people going to bypass what the voters want, and implement their agendas regardless? So far that's what the mayor has done. He's basically ignored what the MAJORITY want, and carried out an agenda that is not supported by all of America (majority).

quote:
So if you think that the mayor superseded his authority, it is only your opinion. He did what he believed to be a legally responsible anti-discriminatory act. We all will find out soon enough if the CA State courts agree.


Judge Moore also did what he believed to be legally. It also came down to an interpretation of the Constitution. Some say separation of church and state means: government cannot mix church in with any government issues. Others say it means: government cannot interfere with the church.

This may also require a change to the Constitution so it there isn't any mistakes on what it means.

quote:
I seriously believe that devildog is just in this thread to get our panties in a bunch (to paraphrase his words). I would not take anything he says seriously any longer. Anyone who wants to truly debate the gay marriage issue will actually debate. I doubt that devildog is here to debate. I personally try to read other people's posts and look at them from many different angles. I try very hard to be objective to the things others say. And then I make my decision as to what I have been presented with. devildog said we were posting opinions and not facts and chelktty actually posted evidence that the opposite was true.


I don't know why he's here, and perhaps he's putting forth his best effort to debate. As for opinions, I agree. Each of you have expressed your feelings, but I have yet to see any justifications other than "we love each other" or "we want equal rights" as your facts.

It's kind of hard to have equal rights when your bodies are not built to fit each other. That should be the first clue that you aren't equal, nor should you be treated equally. But then again, you are right in the fact you have free will to live however you want. But you do not have free will to change laws that effect the rest of the nation to go against the way nature is. We aren't going to except it and there is NO scripture that tells us we have to. It's a mute point to debate that because neither side is going to convince the other.

quote:
devildog, thanks for your opinion. Most people that I have met who choose to vomit their toxic views all over society, refuse to back those views up with any fact. They constantly dodge the situation. That is when I know it's nothing but smoke and mirrors.


Seems to me your side is also vomitting toxic views all over society. You want the world to conform to your lifestyle, and if we don't, you (as a whole) call us bigots, filled with hate, unloving, intollerant, etc. etc. etc. You also resort to saying we are in fear, in the closet, and whatever else I've seen you claim. So is this not toxic? You run into people that don't support your views, so you lash out at them and call them mean things.

I know my views are not supported in the forum, but have I ever called any opposer a name? devildog and others don't support you either, but this does not mean we hate, or we're afraid, or we are violating Scripture where it says we're to love one another. Love is different from behaviors. Even Jesus says He loves the sinner but He hates the sin. So does this make Him a bigot too? That's basically what you're saying if He doesn't support your views too.

quote:
Kooka, we have sparred on the boards many a time. You probably more than most here know my views. I only have one thing to say about your posts. You have used the phrase, in various forms, that you are against homosexuality but not the homosexual. I have heard that from many others.


What you said about me is true. I do not accept homosexuality, but this does not mean I hate the person or don't accept the person. If someone does drugs, I can love the person but hate the drugs. You seem to have a problem with separating a human from a behavior and it's as if you want a person to be accepted WITH the behaviors. I don't agree. You also know my views, and you know I get my right from wrong based on the Bible. Therefore, since you know the Bible too, you know why I have taken the stand I've taken. For you to say I'm in the wrong would mean you reject the Bible when God tells us to flee from wickedness. If I vote to allow same-sex marriages, then I have to stand before God and give an account for going against His word, and let me tell you something, I fear God, not the homosexual community. The most anyone could do to me on earth is kill me. The results of my choices here will last an eternity so I do not fear being out on a limb.

quote:
The translation really is; "who you love is a sickness, and when you change who you love, the religious community will love you, but NOT the way you are now." ---end


This is the biggest misunderstanding. The "religious" community would have to be held accountable for not loving a person based on their sexuality. Anyone who hates, beats up, or in any other way harms another person based on who they are obviously do not love God, or are not understanding what it means to love someone.

I have a friend who is gay, but she knows where I stand. I care very much about her as a friend but that doesn't mean I accept what she does. There is a very big difference (and I may be speaking for myself) between a human and a behavior. I can separate the two. I'm sorry if you are running in to Christians who can't separate the two and throw out the baby with the bath water. Shame on them for doing that. But they may also not yet know how to love a person that they differ with. Christians have to learn too.

quote:
I was going to post that this was not a religious debate, or a general debate on homosexuality. Unfortunately, in America and most places on planet earth, any subject relating to Gays & Lesbians (like gay marriage), becomes a debate on whether it is okay for anyone to be gay, is it right or wrong, is it a biological thing or a learned thing, blah.. blah.. blah...


To be a true debate would be to allow all views, and yet, religion would be one view. You can even break that down. Some Christians see nothing wrong with homosexuality and embrace it. Others worry about those Christians

quote:
It is such a tired argument, all of the lame excuses why gays can't be allowed to do this or that etc., and who is the person, persons, or groups that are ALWAYS opposed to this? Religion.


Yes, and the ones who oppose you are saying the same thing. Lame excuses why gays should be allowed. But then you have to remember this about the religious group; we have a benchmark to use and the other side doesn't, or has a different interpretation. You won't find any place in the Bible where God tells us to embrace anything He calls sin, or warns us about. It's just not there. So that should get across to your side why we won't budge. We remain faithful to God, not man. And if laws are changed that force people to choose between God or man, it's going to be a mess on earth.

<snipped paragraph>

quote:
I find it very interesting that I have never met an atheist or an agnostic that had a problem with homosexuality. Why is it only the religious?


That's easy to answer. Because they don't believe in God and therefore they have no concience of what is pleasing or not pleasing to God. Of course they aren't going to have a problem with it, since the objection comes from what is in the Bible.

quote:
Because the religious have decided for the rest of society what is right. It is their way or the highway. The truly pathetic part of the puzzle here is, the religious have way too many problems of their own to be pointing fingers.


No one is denying the "religious" have problems. The entire world has problems and no one is exempt. No one escapes the troubles of this world. Some want to live according to God's ways, and some don't. It's been a struggle since the beginning of time and it's not going to end until we die, or until God reveals the truth without any doubts.

When we're talking about establishing laws in a country that is based on a voting system, then you have to understand that not everyone is going to get what they want. If you want a dictatorship then we can just throw away the voting system, throw away the Constitution, put in a gay person in power, and to heck with what the rest of the people want.

That's not going to happen, so you're going to accept the system set up in this country and the majority (if done fair) will win. You may get exactly what you want. But if you don't, it's because the Americans voted against it and if you don't think that's fair, then you need to find another country, keep trying, or accept it.

quote:
It is exactly like Hitler wanting to create a "perfect" society of blond-haired blue-eyed individuals. All others would suffer genocide. Yet Hitler himself did not fit into his perfect society. Had he not been the leader of the witch hunt, he too would have befallen the same fate.


And who's dumping toxics? It is not exactly like Hitler. We live in a country where we get to vote. Sorry if you're upset that the majority vote against you. And sorry if you're upset that those in power are trying to stop this. You also have people in power trying to keep it going, so don't try to put this off on one group, when all sides are fighting for what they want. You too are fighting for what you want. So does this put you in Hitler's army too? After all, aren't you trying to get things passed against what others want?

quote:
So the authoritarian religious society that wants to "purify" our world should really stop cheating on their spouses, avoiding taxes, hiring slave labor, and molesting children.


Very well said, and I agree.

quote:
Fix the problems you have in your own community before you launch the next witch hunt. For what you really fear are the imperfections you have inside of you, and hurting others will not fix what is damaged inside of you.


I disagree with this part. We are fixing what is wrong. We stayed passive for too long and didn't fight for God's ways. The Bible is filled with stories of His people who sat back and did nothing. They ended up in ruins because they became passive. I am happy to see passive Christians and others who love God get up and start fighting for a country under God... YES UNDER GOD. I don't want a nation that takes God out of the public, out of the schools, out of the government. And, even if laws are passed to prevent that goal, no one will ever be able to enforce it.

quote:
I cannot tell you how amazed I am that so many people are here in this thread defending a persons right to happiness. Straight, Gay and otherwise. Thank you for restoring my faith in humanity. I am glad to know you. May you breed more like yourselves.


Same old argument ... we just want to love who we want to love. Really? Then stop trying to pass laws that make the rest of us have to comply. It isn't just a marriage issue. It's a "we want to do whatever we want to do and who cares what anyone else thinks?" issue. I've been over this in other threads and I'm not going to repeat it. It boils down to the rest of getting dragged in courts because didn't marry you in our church, or we didn't do this because your gay, or do that because your gay. So tell me, is the gay community going to push their ways to the point where we end up in discrimination lawsuits if we don't comply? It's already happened.

quote:
There have been arguments here, and in other threads about how gay's are not really treated bad or discriminated against. My only response to that is... when you have healed from the physical bruises and the mental abuse from those that hate, when you find your friend dead from suicide, when you have had to clean the blood of yourself and your friends up from an attack that was unprovoked and senseless, that is when you will understand how pathetic your arguments are. When you have lived in my shoes...


I DO live in your shoes. It's called Christianity. We are murdered for our faith in God. We are beat up, we are shot at, we have our churches burned down, our houses set on fire, and I myself am in a situation where I am in danger because of my faith. So please don't use this as a crutch as every human being is in your shoes. There are crimes against every single walk of life. There are suicides in every walk of life... it is not unique to the gay community. Welcome to life.

quote:
Whenever you throw hate against the Gay & Lesbian community, you actually make us stronger.


Again, perhaps some have hatred, but not all. Some can separate the human from the behavior. And you're right about getting stronger as it happens in all communities, not just the gay community. It's human nature to bond with likeness, and when calamity hits, you grow stronger in groups. That's the same for all of us, not just you.

quote:
I am not sure if it is part of the deal we got when we got the gay gene, but that is how it works. We have learned to survive. And soon we will get to survive together as married couples. Maybe not today, maybe not next year, but we will.
And I know this because... I'm Gay.


Again, matter of opinion. I don't believe in the gay gene, but if you do, that's your choice. I believe it's a learned lifestyle, not inherited. That's my opinion.


Old Post 02-18-2004 07:47 PM
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post #94  quote:

quote:
Kookaburra said this in post #93 :
I disagree with this part. We are fixing what is wrong. We stayed passive for too long and didn't fight for God's ways. The Bible is filled with stories of His people who sat back and did nothing. They ended up in ruins because they became passive. I am happy to see passive Christians and others who love God get up and start fighting for a country under God... YES UNDER GOD. I don't want a nation that takes God out of the public, out of the schools, out of the government. And, even if laws are passed to prevent that goal, no one will ever be able to enforce it.


Im just curious...who is "we?"

"we" is the Christians right?

The same "we" that supports the minister to put up hate signs? The same "we" that kills doctors and women because of abortions?

Im glad Im not part of "we."


Old Post 02-18-2004 08:26 PM
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post #95  quote:

Christianity is not a political affiliation or a heirarchial institution. Don't treat it that way. The Church is comprised of individuals who are just as capable of acts of stupidity as anyone else. Don't apply one person's actions to other people. Some people may use the word "Christian" but their actions may speak otherwise.

but that is all beyond the scope of this thread, so I will not comment any further.


Old Post 02-18-2004 08:34 PM
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chelktty
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post #96  quote:

[QUOTE]Kookaburra said this in post #93 :
Sorry for the long post but it was a very long post I was answering.

[B]Ditto

It's always going to come down to a matter of interpretation, which is why several states are acting to get this clarified so there will be no denying what the Constitution reads. We'll have to wait and see what happens.

Also, we are living in a democracy which is suppose to be a majority rules. If the majority of Americans want same-sex marriage, then those who oppose will have to live with the results.

If the majority of Americans don't want it, then those who oppose will also have to live with the results.

That's why we have a voting system set up. Now the question is going to be, are both sides going to play fair? That is, are radical people going to bypass what the voters want, and implement their agendas regardless? So far that's what the mayor has done. He's basically ignored what the MAJORITY want, and carried out an agenda that is not supported by all of America (majority).

Not necessarily. Has the issue of allowing gays the right to marry been put to a national vote? If they had and voted against allowing Gay marriage, your arguement would be valid. But we've been arguing in this forum and so far the "majority" has been for equal rights among gays and lesbians.
Judge Moore also did what he believed to be legally. It also came down to an interpretation of the Constitution. Some say separation of church and state means: government cannot mix church in with any government issues. Others say it means: government cannot interfere with the church.

This may also require a change to the Constitution so it there isn't any mistakes on what it means.

Would it have infringed on the rights of a Muslim, Jew, Buddist, Wiccan or any other person who entered Judge Moore's courthouse that did not worship the Christian religion to be subjected to his religious monument? Yes it would.
Separation of Church and State means just what it states, there's no interpretation needed. The church, (any church) should operate as a separate entity from the government. If it wasn't, the freedom that Americans have to celebrate and practice whichever religion they choose to would be non-existent.
However the government can interfere with the church if it is involved in illegal activities. SEE: Catholic Priests prosecuted for molesting alter boys and Muslim places of worship busted for financing terrorism. The church is not above the law and it shouldn't be integrated into it either.


I don't know why he's here, and perhaps he's putting forth his best effort to debate. As for opinions, I agree. Each of you have expressed your feelings, but I have yet to see any justifications other than "we love each other" or "we want equal rights" as your facts.

Actually some of us have posted articles and facts, but you and the devil have refused to read or believe them.
It's kind of hard to have equal rights when your bodies are not built to fit each other. That should be the first clue that you aren't equal, nor should you be treated equally. But then again, you are right in the fact you have free will to live however you want. But you do not have free will to change laws that effect the rest of the nation to go against the way nature is. We aren't going to except it and there is NO scripture that tells us we have to. It's a mute point to debate that because neither side is going to convince the other.

Wow, I can't believe you actually said that gays are not equal and nor should they be. I know you get upset when people make comments suggesting that you're a bigot, but how can you make a statement like that and NOT understand the degree of your discrimination? As for not having the free will to change laws, that's what white lawmen told Rosa Parks once upon a time...and look what happened.
Seems to me your side is also vomitting toxic views all over society. You want the world to conform to your lifestyle, and if we don't, you (as a whole) call us bigots, filled with hate, unloving, intollerant, etc. etc. etc .

SEE: Your comments above. I rest my case.
You also resort to saying we are in fear, in the closet , and whatever else I've seen you claim. So is this not toxic? You run into people that don't support your views, so you lash out at them and call them mean things.

No one ever said you were in the closet. Again it was a gross misinterpretation of a factual article that Outsider posted, that you obviously didn't read thoroughly, just scanned it and saw a few key words.
I know my views are not supported in the forum, but have I ever called any opposer a name? devildog and others don't support you either, but this does not mean we hate, or we're afraid, or we are violating Scripture where it says we're to love one another. Love is different from behaviors. Even Jesus says He loves the sinner but He hates the sin. So does this make Him a bigot too? That's basically what you're saying if He doesn't support your views too.

When's the last time you and Jesus hung out and talked? Oh that's right, never. You're justifying your discrimination with your interpretation of the Bible. It's interesting that the KKK does the same thing...justifying their crimes and bigotry against blacks, gays, orientals and anyone not white and Christian, due to their interpretations of the Bible.
What you said about me is true. I do not accept homosexuality, but this does not mean I hate the person or don't accept the person. If someone does drugs, I can love the person but hate the drugs. You seem to have a problem with separating a human from a behavior and it's as if you want a person to be accepted WITH the behaviors. I don't agree. You also know my views, and you know I get my right from wrong based on the Bible. Therefore, since you know the Bible too, you know why I have taken the stand I've taken. For you to say I'm in the wrong would mean you reject the Bible when God tells us to flee from wickedness. If I vote to allow same-sex marriages, then I have to stand before God and give an account for going against His word, and let me tell you something, I fear God , not the homosexual community. The most anyone could do to me on earth is kill me. The results of my choices here will last an eternity so I do not fear being out on a limb.

It's a shame that you fear God when God is something that should be celebrated. But that's just my opinion of our higher power. It's obvious that we will never see eye to eye on this issue. You see homosexuality as a behavior, like a drug addict abusing drugs. I see it as natural. Why do families with good Christian roots produce four heterosexual offspring and one homosexual offspring. Was it "learned"? Who taught it to them if their siblings are straight? It's a natural personality trait that if evident in not only humans but in the animal kingdom as well. If God created the heavens, the earth and every living thing, isn't it safe to assume that he made homosexuals? I think so.
This is the biggest misunderstanding. The "religious" community would have to be held accountable for not loving a person based on their sexuality. Anyone who hates, beats up, or in any other way harms another person based on who they are obviously do not love God, or are not understanding what it means to love someone.

I have a friend who is gay, but she knows where I stand. I care very much about her as a friend but that doesn't mean I accept what she does. There is a very big difference (and I may be speaking for myself) between a human and a behavior. I can separate the two. I'm sorry if you are running in to Christians who can't separate the two and throw out the baby with the bath water. Shame on them for doing that. But they may also not yet know how to love a person that they differ with. Christians have to learn too.

If a gay person stays celebate for their entire lives, never touching a member of the same sex, they are still gay. It's not their "behavior" that makes them gay, it is simply who they are.
Yes, and the ones who oppose you are saying the same thing. Lame excuses why gays should be allowed . But then you have to remember this about the religious group; we have a benchmark to use and the other side doesn't, or has a different interpretation. You won't find any place in the Bible where God tells us to embrace anything He calls sin, or warns us about. It's just not there. So that should get across to your side why we won't budge. We remain faithful to God, not man. And if laws are changed that force people to choose between God or man, it's going to be a mess on earth.

What's lame about wanting equal rights? What's lame about wanting to share the same rights and privilages as "straight" Americans? No one is asking you to choose between man and God. It's not you in court asking to marry your same sex partner of 50 years. If it came to a vote, you would vote against it. That's your free will. No one is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to vote for gay marriage.
That's easy to answer. Because they don't believe in God and therefore they have no concience of what is pleasing or not pleasing to God. Of course they aren't going to have a problem with it, since the objection comes from what is in the Bible.

In regard to athiests, you're right, they don't believe in God. But agnostics do. They just don't believe in the conformed idea of God that binds so many people within religion.
No one is denying the "religious" have problems. The entire world has problems and no one is exempt. No one escapes the troubles of this world. Some want to live according to God's ways, and some don't. It's been a struggle since the beginning of time and it's not going to end until we die, or until God reveals the truth without any doubts.

When we're talking about establishing laws in a country that is based on a voting system, then you have to understand that not everyone is going to get what they want. If you want a dictatorship then we can just throw away the voting system, throw away the Constitution, put in a gay person in power, and to heck with what the rest of the people want.

If a Gay president were elected to office, it would not automatically create a dictatorship.
That's not going to happen, so you're going to accept the system set up in this country and the majority (if done fair) will win. You may get exactly what you want. But if you don't, it's because the Americans voted against it and if you don't think that's fair, then you need to find another country, keep trying, or accept it.

You're right, gays and people who believe in the equality of Americans will continue to fight for the cause. It took blacks, women and native americans years to achieve equality. They didn't give up either.
And who's dumping toxics? It is not exactly like Hitler. We live in a country where we get to vote. Sorry if you're upset that the majority vote against you. And sorry if you're upset that those in power are trying to stop this. You also have people in power trying to keep it going, so don't try to put this off on one group, when all sides are fighting for what they want. You too are fighting for what you want. So does this put you in Hitler's army too? After all, aren't you trying to get things passed against what others want?

When was this on the National ballot? Did I miss something? I'd hate to bring up history again, but it does repeat itself... But not all of the voting class was quick to give equal rights to minorities in the past. Did that make it wrong for them to keep trying until they succeeded?
I disagree with this part. We are fixing what is wrong. We stayed passive for too long and didn't fight for God's ways. The Bible is filled with stories of His people who sat back and did nothing. They ended up in ruins because they became passive. I am happy to see passive Christians and others who love God get up and start fighting for a country under God... YES UNDER GOD. I don't want a nation that takes God out of the public, out of the schools, out of the government. And, even if laws are passed to prevent that goal, no one will ever be able to enforce it.

You're fighting for God's cause? Have you ever seen a movie called Dogma? One of my favorite parts is when it's stated that nothing pissed Jesus off more than the things that were carried out in his name...wars, bigotry and televangelism. Funny movie...with a lot of good points and truth to it.
Same old argument ... we just want to love who we want to love. Really? Then stop trying to pass laws that make the rest of us have to comply .

Making you comply? Really? No one is asking you to get married to someone of the same sex.
It isn't just a marriage issue. It's a "we want to do whatever we want to do and who cares what anyone else thinks?" issue. I've been over this in other threads and I'm not going to repeat it. It boils down to the rest of getting dragged in courts because didn't marry you in our church, or we didn't do this because your gay, or do that because your gay. So tell me, is the gay community going to push their ways to the point where we end up in discrimination lawsuits if we don't comply? It's already happened.

When has a church been sued for not hosting a gay wedding? And if businesses discriminate against a person because their gay, black, white, oriental, female, male, hispanic or any other reason, they should be held liable. It's illegal and wrong.


Old Post 02-19-2004 12:22 AM
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chelktty
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post #97  quote:

I DO live in your shoes. It's called Christianity. We are murdered for our faith in God.

Since when? The Christians and the Lions? Um...how long ago was that?
We are beat up, we are shot at, we have our churches burned down, our houses set on fire,

Generally in the United States, the churches that are burned are victimized by the white christian based KKK who targets congregations that are black, korean, chinese, muslim, jewish and oh yeah, anyone NOT christian. Post a link to an article where your church, christian buddies and houses were targeted because of their faith.
and I myself am in a situation where I am in danger because of my faith.

How are you in danger Kooka? Really, I'm curious. Are you getting death threats because you're a good christian girl? Are people painting "Christian" on your house? Gays DO get death threats, they DO get beaten, they DO get murdered and they DO have their homes vandelized with broken windows and paint emblazoning their outside walls with words like "****" "AIDS" "dikes" etc. etc., all because they're gay. If it was really a choice, like a switch they could turn on and off, don't you think that rather than deal with daily abuse, they would much rather WANT to be straight?
So please don't use this as a crutch as every human being is in your shoes. There are crimes against every single walk of life. There are suicides in every walk of life... it is not unique to the gay community. Welcome to life.

I'm not walking in KJ's or Outsider's shoes. I've been fortunate enough to not have to endure the kind of discrimination and outright hate that the? have to deal with all the time. You're right, there ARE crimes all over targeting all different kinds of people. But people like you make it acceptable to others to target gays for simply being gay. Yeah....Jesus would be real proud of you sweetheart.
Again, perhaps some have hatred, but not all. Some can separate the human from the behavior. And you're right about getting stronger as it happens in all communities, not just the gay community. It's human nature to bond with likeness, and when calamity hits, you grow stronger in groups. That's the same for all of us, not just you.

And some think that people are people. They don't judge behavior.
Again, matter of opinion. I don't believe in the gay gene, but if you do, that's your choice. I believe it's a learned lifestyle, not inherited. That's my opinion.
Fair enough. I think it's genetic. I think it's natural. And I think God wants it that way. And that's my opinion. [/QUOTE][/B]


Old Post 02-19-2004 12:23 AM
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post #98  quote:

quote:
chelktty said this in post #96 :
[QUOTE]Kookaburra said this in post #93 :


That's why we have a voting system set up. Now the question is going to be, are both sides going to play fair? That is, are radical people going to bypass what the voters want, and implement their agendas regardless? So far that's what the mayor has done. He's basically ignored what the MAJORITY want, and carried out an agenda that is not supported by all of America (majority).

[B][COLOR=blue]Not necessarily. Has the issue of allowing gays the right to marry been put to a national vote? If they had and voted against allowing Gay marriage, your arguement would be valid. ]


California law is in DIRECT violation . You can NOT look at it any other way. What does a national vote have to do with ANYTHING? This is Breaking the LAW no matter how you slice it. What makes it worse is that it was put in by Proposition. By a vote !!! By the people!! 67 % of people in California do not want marriage redefined.
Not necessarily I believe it when I see it. You obviously see it when you believe it.


Old Post 02-19-2004 01:32 AM
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post #99  quote:

quote:
devildog said this in post #98 :


California law is in DIRECT violation . You can NOT look at it any other way. What does a national vote have to do with ANYTHING? This is Breaking the LAW no matter how you slice it. What makes it worse is that it was put in by Proposition. By a vote !!! By the people!! 67 % of people in California do not want marriage redefined.
Not necessarily I believe it when I see it. You obviously see it when you believe it.


Where were the 33% who voted FOR it located? Where was the district of California where the judge who ordered that Gay marriage should be allowable under the constitutions of the Californian law? Was it maybe…in THAT district where gay marriages have been allowed? Let's see, it was San Francisco... over 3000 homosexual marriage licenses have been applied for there since the ruling not too long ago. Hmm....I WONDER what the MAJORITY of that area voted for.

I know it must be really annoying for you to see my redundancy in this statement but....As HISTORY has shown us, the fight for equality and equal PRIVILAGES and rights of everyone else begins small and eventually spreads throughout the country to become a nationally amended part of the Constitution of the United States.
That's what makes this country great, by the way. That it was built on a dream that people would live free of persecution. That people were entitled to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That people were given a free choice to worship whatever God they chose to, rather than have it dictated by a government. That all people are created equal.
Once upon a time, it was within the Constitutional rights of a man to OWN his workers, (Black, Native American or Foriegn slaves) his children and his wife. (In our early days it took years to finally pass laws like; You can't beat your wife on a Sunday.)
Anyway the point is that all throughout American history you will find that with each minority group it took years, (sometimes centuries) to finally get a fair shake. Did you know that it took South Carolina 103 years to finally lift a BAN on interracial marriage? Did you know that it happened because the district votes and the moral MAJORITIES of those areas wanted it that way? It didn't happen overnight. It happened little by little, beginning in districts and spreading throughout states and finally the country until it finally started to sink in, (Though they're still a little slow in the Bible Belt) that hey, maybe we should treat people as equals.
And back when blacks, women, native Americans and foreigners were letting their voice be heard and considered as equals, there were plenty of people popping up, using the Bible as their weapon of mass discrimination. (Think: The Bible states women should be submissive to their husbands. Gee, I wonder why it took so long for them to gain equal rights.)
People in the past have also argued that blacks shouldn’t be considered as equals because they were unnatural. (Give me a Friggin Break). As ridiculous as it sounds, those were common arguments supporting segregation and the treating of minorities as second class citizens.
I’ve seen both you and Kooka use this argument, that’s the way the majority wants it, get used to it. So many people sounding just like the two of you have said similar things in the past. But you know the old saying, with your one finger pointed out, there are three more pointed back at you. You need to realize that history repeats itself. That it starts small, but soon everyone starts to catch on. Eventually total and utter equality will be a natural way of life. You may not like it, but eventually you’ll have to get used to it.


Peace
Equality


Old Post 02-19-2004 02:46 AM
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post #100  quote:

What you don't seem to understand is that this is NOT a civil rights issue.

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post #101  quote:

And you don't seem to understand that it is. So I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that.

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post #102  quote:

quote:
chelktty and Kookaburra had this conversation.

It's kind of hard to have equal rights when your bodies are not built to fit each other. That should be the first clue that you aren't equal, nor should you be treated equally. But then again, you are right in the fact you have free will to live however you want. But you do not have free will to change laws that effect the rest of the nation to go against the way nature is. We aren't going to except it and there is NO scripture that tells us we have to. It's a mute point to debate that because neither side is going to convince the other.

Wow, I can't believe you actually said that gays are not equal and nor should they be. I know you get upset when people make comments suggesting that you're a bigot, but how can you make a statement like that and NOT understand the degree of your discrimination? As for not having the free will to change laws, that's what white lawmen told Rosa Parks once upon a time...and look what happened.
Seems to me your side is also vomitting toxic views all over society. You want the world to conform to your lifestyle, and if we don't, you (as a whole) call us bigots, filled with hate, unloving, intollerant, etc. etc. etc .

SEE: Your comments above. I rest my case.
You also resort to saying we are in fear, in the closet , and whatever else I've seen you claim. So is this not toxic? You run into people that don't support your views, so you lash out at them and call them mean things.

What you said about me is true. I do not accept homosexuality, but this does not mean I hate the person or don't accept the person. If someone does drugs, I can love the person but hate the drugs. You seem to have a problem with separating a human from a behavior and it's as if you want a person to be accepted WITH the behaviors.

I have a friend who is gay, but she knows where I stand. I care very much about her as a friend but that doesn't mean I accept what she does. There is a very big difference (and I may be speaking for myself) between a human and a behavior. I can separate the two.

If a gay person stays celebate for their entire lives , never touching a member of the same sex, they are still gay . It's not their "behavior" that makes them gay, it is simply who they are.

When we're talking about establishing laws in a country that is based on a voting system, then you have to understand that not everyone is going to get what they want. If you want a dictatorship then we can just throw away the voting system, throw away the Constitution, put in a gay person in power, and to heck with what the rest of the people want.

And who's dumping toxics? It is not exactly like Hitler . We live in a country where we get to vote. Sorry if you're upset that the majority vote against you. And sorry if you're upset that those in power are trying to stop this . You also have people in power trying to keep it going, so don't try to put this off on one group, when all sides are fighting for what they want. You too are fighting for what you want. So does this put you in Hitler's army too? After all, aren't you trying to get things passed against what others want?

Same old argument ... we just want to love who we want to love. Really? Then stop trying to pass laws that make the rest of us have to comply .
Making you comply? Really? No one is asking you to get married to someone of the same sex.
[/B]


Wow, chelktty, sometimes I think we are twins. You posted all the same arguments I was going to post. Bu of course you know I have more.

Hmmm... so your body has to be built correct to have equal rights? Can you please show me the law, in any country on planet earth that states that?

Next: see my highlights of the above text in red.

We have not intention of having the world conform to our lifestyle. I don't want people to suddenly "become" gay because I now have the same and equal rights as all of the other humans on earth. Geez Louise, you act like if we get one small right it will give us license to suddenly commit homosexual sex on every living creature on earth. We are not trying to invade your sanctimonious world. We want to be treated the same as anyone else (legally), and then left alone to live in peace.

Toxic? See above in red and orange. Now tell me that is not toxic. And I promise you I will pull that soapbox out from under you.

I hope your friend finds a friend who accepts her for who she is, that means ALL of who she is as a whole human.

Moving on...

When Rosa Parks refused to give up her seat to a white man forty years ago on December 1, 1955, she was tired and weary from a long day of work.
Rosa Parks was physically tired, but no more than you or I after a long day's work. In fact, under other circumstances, she would have probably given up her seat willingly to a child or elderly person. But this time Parks was tired of the treatment she and other African Americans received every day of their lives, what with the racism, segregation, and Jim Crow laws of the time.
The rest of Parks' story is American history...her arrest and trial, a 381-day Montgomery bus boycott, and, finally, the Supreme Court's ruling in November 1956 that segregation on transportation is unconstitutional.

On 5th June, 1966, James Meredith started a solitary March Against Fear from Memphis to Jackson, to protest against racism. Soon after starting his march he was shot by sniper. When they heard the news, other civil rights campaigners, including Martin Luther King, Stokely Carmichael and Floyd McKissick, decided to continue the march in Meredith's name. After hospital treatment Meredith rejoined the March Against Fear on 25th June, 1966. The following day the marchers arrived in Jackson, Mississippi. Once again the civil rights movement had shown that it would not give in to white racism.

After the American Civil War most states in the South passed anti-African American legislation. These became known as Jim Crow laws. This included laws that discriminated against African Americans with concern to attendance in public schools and the use of facilities such as restaurants, theaters, hotels, cinemas and public baths. Trains and buses were also segregated and in many states marriage between whites and African American people.

Jim Crow laws were tested in 1896 by Homer Plessey when convicted in Louisiana for riding in a white only railway car. Plessey took his case to the Supreme Court but the justices voted in favour of the Louisiana Court. William B. Brown established the legality of segregation as long as facilities were kept "separate but equal". Only one of the justices, John Harlan, disagreed with this decision.

The above is from this link: http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/USAcivilrights.htm

It has happened before in history and now it repeats itself.

A civil union=sitting in the back of the bus

I have had a long day at work, and I am not giving up my seat in society to appease anyone's sense of discomfort.


Old Post 02-19-2004 03:39 AM
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post #103  quote:

Nice comparison outsider

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post #104  quote:

Outsider, that's exactly how I feel too. I'm NOT sitting in the back of the bus, or drinking out of some hand picked water fountain, to appease anyone. I'm not running down the street having sex with Heidi on each and every street corner. We hardly ever hold hands in public.

Thanks for your words, outsider. Great post!


Old Post 02-19-2004 03:44 AM
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post #105  quote:

Outsider,

Right on brother!


Old Post 02-19-2004 03:47 AM
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post #106  quote:

quote:
mystic said this in post #94 :


Im just curious...who is "we?"

"we" is the Christians right?

The same "we" that supports the minister to put up hate signs? The same "we" that kills doctors and women because of abortions?

Im glad Im not part of "we."


Apparently you didn't read my post very well when I said I'm sorry you are running into Christians who hate. I also said those people will be held accountable for their actions.

If I said "all gay people flaunt their actions in front of everyone and all gay people hate those that don't agree with them, and I'm glad I'm not one of them..." wouldn't you object to it and want people to realize not all gays feel that way?

You make a statement that sounds like all Christians hate or kill. It's simply not true. Hold those accountable for their hatred and murder but don't accuse all of being guilty when we aren't.


Old Post 02-19-2004 03:57 AM
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post #107  quote:

I don't think mystic was accusing all Christians of anything, I think she was perhaps referring to the "Christians" who give real Christians a bad name.

Maybe like people who say that gays aren't equal, nor should they be. Sound familiar? Last I checked, Jesus gave everyone a fair shake. Even the ones who persecuted him. Not considering all people as equal isn't really Christ-like, is it?


Old Post 02-19-2004 04:08 AM
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post #108  quote:

KJ, you and Heidi should hold hands in public if you are comfortable with it. You should not let something so romantic be removed from your life by those who will look at you strange. But only if you and Heidi are comfortable with it.

I am imagining it now, you two are so cute together.


Old Post 02-19-2004 04:09 AM
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post #109  quote:

Awe, thanks outsider. That's so sweet of you to say, hon. We do... but, there are times when we just don't feel comfortable. Like when there's rednecks looking at you like they want to 'teach you a lesson' if you catch my drift.

Old Post 02-19-2004 04:14 AM
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post #110  quote:

I understand.

Old Post 02-19-2004 04:16 AM
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post #111  quote:

quote:
chelktty said this in post #107 :
I don't think mystic was accusing all Christians of anything, I think she was perhaps referring to the "Christians" who give real Christians a bad name.

Maybe like people who say that gays aren't equal, nor should they be. Sound familiar? Last I checked, Jesus gave everyone a fair shake. Even the ones who persecuted him. Not considering all people as equal isn't really Christ-like, is it?


I challenge you to find Scripture that supports your view that Christians are wrong to not accept homosexuality. Please quote it and I'll repent. I know it's not there. God commands us to love one another. He has MANY warnings to flee from sin, and to not even look on the wickedness of the world. You just will not find anything that says God wants us to support this.

As for the fair shake from Jesus, you have that wrong. He died for all of us but He shook the dust from His feet and walked away from those that rejected Him. He Himself did not accept sin, and asked for repentance. I also challenge you to show me where He accepted a person's sin. Show me where He never told the person to repent or go away and sin no more. Show me where He gave people permission to continue in ways He spoke against.

I'm waiting.....


Old Post 02-19-2004 04:18 AM
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post #112  quote:

quote:
Kookaburra said this in post #111 :


I challenge you to find Scripture that supports your view that Christians are wrong to not accept homosexuality. Please quote it and I'll repent. I know it's not there. God commands us to love one another. He has MANY warnings to flee from sin, and to not even look on the wickedness of the world. You just will not find anything that says God wants us to support this.

Kooka, here's a link to a site about homosexuality and the Bible. Just something to chew on. http://www.truluck.com/html/six_bib...tml#Genesis19:5


As for the fair shake from Jesus, you have that wrong. He died for all of us but He shook the dust from His feet and walked away from those that rejected Him. He Himself did not accept sin, and asked for repentance. I also challenge you to show me where He accepted a person's sin. Show me where He never told the person to repent or go away and sin no more. Show me where He gave people permission to continue in ways He spoke against.

I'm waiting.....

Ok, show me the part where Jesus said that homosexuality is wrong. And if he didn't forgive those who tormented and didn't accept him, why didn't God wipe them out?
Now I'm waiting.


Old Post 02-19-2004 04:25 AM
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post #113  quote:

I'm still waiting on you for the Scripture... in the meantime I'll get what you're looking for.

Old Post 02-19-2004 04:26 AM
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post #114  quote:

As I have posted many, many times in the P&T forums... show me where the word Homosexual appears in the original documents that the bible was transcribed from.

I have been waiting for that answer for months, still waiting...


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post #115  quote:

great link chel!

Old Post 02-19-2004 04:29 AM
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post #116  quote:

Yes, that's a great link, Michelle... AND it has the scripture.

Old Post 02-19-2004 04:31 AM
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post #117  quote:

Oh, and outsider... you will keep waiting until 'hell freezes over' for that info.

Old Post 02-19-2004 04:31 AM
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post #118  quote:

I know, and even though it has been cold here today, I'm not sure it's cold enough.

Old Post 02-19-2004 04:37 AM
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post #119  quote:

The following versus are from Romans 1.

quote:
18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness,


For those of you who think God does not have a wrathful side of Him against wickedness, here is one of many places that show He does.

quote:
19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.

20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.


For those who believe the Bible is not the word of God are still without excuse because He says there is still what's been made. So look around at what He's created and realize He's made it plain He was able to create the planets and even if you reject His Word, you are without excuse.

quote:
21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.


This is going to lead up to what you guys call "the gay gene" but the truth is, God has turned you over to your lusts.

quote:
22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools

23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.


Now what religion was it that said they have birds, animals, and such the call gods? Wicca was it? witchcraft? anything that creates things or uses what God created basically.

quote:
24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another.

25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen.


This too leads up to homosexuality and other sins.... the lack of repentance leads up to being turned over to the shameful lusts.

quote:
chelktty said this in post #112 :
Ok, show me the part where Jesus said that homosexuality is wrong.


See below

quote:
26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones.

27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion .


Pretty crystal clear that:
1. It's not natural
2. It's a perversion

quote:
28 Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done.

29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips,

30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents;

31 they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless.


It's listed with greed, deprvity, envy, murder.. etc.

quote:
32 Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.


And THIS is why I don't approve of it. If I approve of those who practice these things, then I am in trouble myself. So you see, I would rather be despised for holding fast to my beliefs than to fall into the trap being presented to people... that is, to be acceptant of these things and if you aren't then you are not fullfilling God's commandments. Oh really? I see it very clear that we are not to approve of those who practice these things unless we want to suffer the same fate. Which I don't.

It's very sad that a lot of God fearing, Bible believing people are turning away from God's ways in support of those who practice these things. They are falling into a dangerous trap. No where does God tell us to accept sin.


Old Post 02-19-2004 04:47 AM
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post #120  quote:

Okay, then what about this: which one of the 10 commandments and the 7 deadly sins forbids homosexuality? These are both the rules which we were told to live by, and as such should anyone ever accept any other words, especially ones so questionable, as being the truth? If He really forbids homosexuality, it would have been mentioned within those 17 rules of life.

Old Post 02-19-2004 04:56 AM
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