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Sayzak
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Read this if you believe Iraq war = OIL post #1  quote:



http://autos.msn.com/advice/standar...4022132&src=msn

New Technologies Compete in Challenge

by Mike Meredith

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Imagine a sleek electric sports car powered by laptop computer batteries, an SUV fueled by hydrogen, or a luxury sedan with a powerful diesel engine, all competing in a real-world road rally.

Hydrogen fuel cells, electric motors, alternative fuels, clean diesel, and internal combustion engines were just some of the technologies represented as more than 100 different vehicles participated in the fifth edition of Michelin Challenge Bibendum.
Challenge Bibendum is an annual competition hosted by Michelin to showcase environmentally positive technologies for motor vehicles in the quest for sustainable mobility.


Challenge Bibendum Overview


The event offers a glimpse at the future of personal transportation with the opportunity to compare different energy sources and propulsion systems in both objective tests and real-world driving.

Edouard Michelin, CEO of the Michelin Group, described Challenge Bibendum as a "proving ground for cleaner technologies." The 2003 event included vehicles ranging from current production models to eleven futuristic hydrogen fuel cell vehicles.

The fifth edition of Challenge Bibendum kicked-off with a public display of the participating vehicles in front of city hall at Sonoma Square, in California's famed wine-making region. The competitors then moved to Infineon Raceway for a full-day of objective testing. The event concluded on the third day with a road rally across the Golden Gate Bridge to city hall in downtown San Francisco.

While Challenge Bibendum is a competition, it is not the type of event with only a single winner. Each of the entries representing a wide range of different technologies, energy sources, and propulsion systems were tested for the level of performance in emissions, fuel economy, noise, handling, acceleration, braking, and range.

Each participant received a grade from A to D in each category, and the vehicles that receive A and B scores each received Challenge Bibendum awards.

In addition, an international jury awarded four design awards. The 2004 Toyota Prius received both the Style Advancement Award and the Technical Integration Award for production vehicles and the DaimlerChrysler Mercedes-Benz F-Cell A-Class won the Style Advancement Award and the Technical Integration Award for prototype vehicles.

Competing Technologies
A wide range of technologies competed in 2003 Michelin Challenge Bibendum, but compared to previous years, the field was dominated by hydrogen-powered vehicles, hybrid technologies, and clean diesel engines.

The hydrogen-powered vehicles included fuel cell vehicles that convert hydrogen to electricity to power an electric motor as well as internal combustion engines that are converted to run on hydrogen rather than gasoline or diesel.

While the hybrids that most consumers are aware of feature two propulsion systems (internal combustion engine and electric motor), hybrid can also refer to the combination of energy sources, such as a hydrogen fuel cell and regenerative braking.

New technologies have produced dramatic changes in the performance and characteristics of diesel internal combustion engines. Combined with low-sulfur diesel, available now in Europe and required in the U.S. for 2006, today's diesel engines are clean, quiet, and fun to drive.

Gasoline internal combustion engines also benefit from new technologies that allow some of today's gasoline engines to operate at new zero emission levels.

Fuel Cell Technology
Hydrogen-fueled fuel cell vehicles continue to garner attention as a future solution to energy and transportation demands, and Michelin Challenge Bibendum was no exception. The General Motors Hy-Wire concept car was the most futuristic and the most sought-after vehicle for test drives.

The Hy-Wire's unique combination of a fuel-cell propulsion system with by-wire technology set it apart from the other fuel cells and guaranteed long lines for the opportunity to experience the technology. One of the first to experience the Hy-Wire was Actor Alan Alda.

Although it's not as futuristic-looking as the Hy-Wire, I did have the opportunity to drive the Ford Focus FCV (Fuel Cell Vehicle), which was an interesting experience. The car has very good acceleration from the electric motor; however I could feel the extra weight as compared to a standard Focus.

The most noticeable difference was the sound from the on-board compressor that is used to force hydrogen through the fuel cell stack to create electricity. The electric motor is silent, but the compressor makes a very noticeable whining sound not normally associated with a car.

Nearly a dozen different fuel-cell vehicles in all were entered in the competition, including fuel-cell hybrids from Hyundai and a Toyota that combine both a fuel-cell stack and a battery to supply electricity to the electric motor. The fuel cell converts hydrogen to electricity with water as a by-product, and regenerative braking creates electricity that is stored in the battery to power the vehicle independently of the electricity produced by the fuel cell.

Yet riding in the Toyota FCHV, which looks looked like a standard Toyota Highlander SUV, also felt like a standard Highlander at freeway speeds. The only indications that it is not anything but a standard Highlander are that it is right-hand drive, and it features a display panel in the center of the dash with a diagram of the power delivery system. The diagram indicates whether electricity is coming from the fuel cell, from regenerative braking, or both.

Other fuel cell vehicles included the Honda FCX, Mercedes-Benz F-Cell A-Class, Hyundai FCV, and Esteem Anuvu.

Current Production Vehicles
From current hybrid technology to ultra-clean internal combustion engines that emit nearly zero emissions, some of the most impressive technology at Challenge Bibendum can already be purchased in new-car showrooms.

Both Honda and Toyota entered hybrid vehicles that combined a gasoline internal combustion engine with an electric motor for improved fuel economy and reduced emission. Volvo entered a Bi-Fuel V70 wagon now on sale in Europe that will run on either gasoline or compressed natural gas.

One of the vehicles that created the most interest at Challenge Bibendum was the 2004 Toyota Prius, the second-generation of Toyota's hybrid sedan that goes on sale this fall. The new Prius is powered by a new Hybrid Synergy Drive powertrain and like the original Prius, is a full hybrid system, capable of running in either gas or electric modes.

Challenge Bibendum provided an opportunity to drive the 2004 Prius on a short course. The new Prius offers good acceleration and drove like a midsize car with a traditional powertrain. The new Prius is not only larger and more powerful than its predecessors, but it returns a combined fuel economy rating in the mid-50s.

Honda also entered three current production vehicles that meet Partial Zero Emission Vehicle (PZEV) standards: 2003 Honda Civic, the first vehicle to earn Advanced Technology-PZEV certification; Civic GX, which runs on Compressed Natural Gas; and 2003 Honda Accord PZEV.

New Clean Diesel Technology
A number of European diesel production cars were on hand at Challenge Bibendum to show the progress of clean diesel technology. In the European market, 44 percent of new vehicle registrations are diesel-powered vehicles. Technology has been developed that makes today's diesel vehicles smoother, cleaner, and quieter than most American buyers have ever experienced.

Robert Bosch Corporation entered a number of European diesels, including: luxury cars such as the BMW 740d and Audi A8 TDI quattro; sport sedans such as the BMW 530d, a Mercedes-Benz E320 cdi, Volkswagen Passat TDI 4Motion, and Volvo S80 D5; SUVs like the Volvo XC90 D5, Jeep Grand Cherokee 2.7 CRD, and the Volkswagen Touareg V10 TDI; and even the MINI One D with a 1.9-liter diesel engine.

The Touareg V10 TDI was particularly impressive on the Infineon Raceway road course, with the powerful diesel engine producing impressive acceleration for the nearly 3-ton vehicle. Step on the throttle and the V10 TDI is quick, with 552 lb-ft of torque available at just 2000 rpm.

Driving these vehicles proved that they run clean and quiet with no diesel fuel smell or black, sooty exhaust with an engine sound that is very similar to a gasoline-powered engine. They are also are fun to drive, with abundant torque at very low rpm for excellent acceleration.

Other Hydrogen-Powered Vehicles
In addition to the hydrogen-powered fuel-cell vehicles, a number of vehicles were converted so the internal combustion engine would run on hydrogen rather than gasoline. Since hydrogen does not have the energy of gasoline, often a supercharger or a turbo is added during the conversion process to boost engine power.

ECD Ovonics converted a 2003 Prius so that the internal combustion engine ran on hydrogen to showcase a new solid hydrogen storage system.

The Ford Focus H2RV is a hydrogen-powered hybrid with the internal combustion engine converted to run on hydrogen with a supercharger added. It's combined with Ford's Modular Hybrid Transmission System which incorporates a 300-volt electric motor for full hybrid operation.

Another Renewable Fuel: Bio-Gas
Volvo showcased their successful bio-gas production vehicles currently sold in Europe that reduce carbon dioxide emissions twenty percent over gasoline. Sweden has a goal of generating seven percent of its overall vehicle fuel from renewable sources.

Methane is a combustible fuel that can be extracted from the earth in the form of natural gas and used in vehicles as compressed natural gas (CNG). Clean bio-gas, also methane, can be produced from sources not usually thought of as fuel, including sewage, spent restaurant oil, and lawn clippings. There are currently about 2.5 million cars running CNG throughout the world.

The Volvo V70 Bi-Fuel wagon we drove looked and performed the same as the U.S. gasoline versions. The engine management electronics adjust to optimize engine performance for the fuel that is being used. The V70 Bi-Fuel with a 2.4 liter five-cylinder engine has a 200 mile range on CNG with a reserve gasoline tank.

Sweden's bio-gas fleet shows how the path to sustainable mobility ties in many different approaches to energy production and travel. Municipal sewage and energy utilities, traditional fuel suppliers, farmers, and restaurants all can have a part in delivering clean renewable bio-gas. Automobile manufacturers like Volvo gain incentives through their efforts to bring the technology into the mainstream vehicle fleet.

http://autos.msn.com/advice/standar...4022132&src=msn


Last edited by Sayzak on 10-07-2003 at 11:06 AM |
Old Post 10-07-2003 10:39 AM
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Dragonhalitosis
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post #2  quote:

Good try! But the foloowing facts still remain true!
America is dependant make that addicted to Oil!
That is not going to change in the forseeable future
These technologies have been about to come onstream for years but they are still not mainstream reliable or cheap!
An increasing proportion of Americas needed oil comes from offshore!
If the Corrupt Fat B********ds who run Suadi Arabia ever get kicked out there is a substatial risk that a government hostile to America will turn off the taps or.... anarchy will
If however there is an Iraqi government beholden to America as a eplacement the taps in Iraq can replace those in Arabia!


Old Post 10-07-2003 11:50 AM
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Sayzak
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post #3  quote:

America is dependent on oil. There's no doubt. But the light is at the end of the tunnel and it's not just in a prototype. These technologies have not been close to the mainstream for years. It was just 3 years ago Bush tried to pass a bill to fund hydrogen Fule cells, but most people lacked an understanding of it, thus brushing it off calling it "unwise spending".

- We're manufacturing 6 or so Diesel engine cars this year alone.

- The technology for Bio-fule is old, but rescently perfected (A year or two ago)

-Despite the lack of FUNDS, hydrogen fule cells have obviousely become reality in the last 3 years.

-It is going to change in the forseeable future. You'd know that if you spent 5 minutes researching the technologies listed above. (It seems that a lot of people are not away of this, it's surprising)

A lot pf people estimate 5 years before a total revolution in technology is in play. More realistic people expect it to be at least 7 years due to the massive face lift this is going to have on the economy and world relations.

Obviousely this is going to cost money to do this. Bio-Diesel is estimated to be about the same amount of money as currect diesel (More expensive as a product, but more economic).

Hydrogen fule cells are going to be expensive at first, there's no doubt. But like all technology it will become cheaper, and as cars are made to host this technology easier the whole process will take less time and effort. How much did a 28k modem, 11" monitor, 25 MB computer with only an "a" drive cost in 1990? (I'm not sure, but I'm guessing about as much as a Cable Modem, 17" monitor, 1.5 Gig computer with a CD re-writable drive and a DVD player costs now.

I'm looking forward to the change. You can denye it all you want, the evidense is here and you'll be seeing more if it both in this forum and in the real world.


Old Post 10-09-2003 10:04 AM
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Dragonhalitosis
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post #4  quote:

a quick question Sayzak where do you get Diesel from? I've noticed youve twice mentioned it as an alternative to petrol without mentioning where you get it from. oh and those 6 diesel Engines sure are a lot are you sure you don't want to amend that figure?

Last edited by Dragonhalitosis on 10-09-2003 at 10:11 AM |
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post #5  quote:

I did mention where it comes from. Soybean oil mixed with a chemical which manipulates it on a molecular structure to work in both hot and cold conditions, obsticals which formerly kept this technology from catching "fire" so to speak.

http://www.biodiesel.org/ <-- Perfect site to prove it's not just a protype or alternative fule, it's going to be our fule.

http://www.afdc.doe.gov/altfuel/bio_made.html <--Explains how it's made and what it is.

http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel.html <-- full of fun facts and examples of it's progress.

I had a link that showed a great list of Diesel Engine cars people in the United States are planning on buying but I can't find it. I actually posted it somewhere in this forum. It might be on the "economy" section. This is a trend spreading west from Britain. Not too long ago only 10% of the cars on their roads were Diesel Engines. Now it's apparantly up to 44%. VW is leading the pack, but in the U.S. there are a handful of new cars in production. Here are some links to desiel car trends and such:

http://www.greenconsumerguide.com/t...v=Y&fuel=diesel

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/2332669.stm


Old Post 10-09-2003 11:52 AM
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DaveDom
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post #6  quote:

quote:
Originally posted by sayzak21
I did mention where it comes from. Soybean oil mixed with a chemical which manipulates it on a molecular structure to work in both hot and cold conditions, obsticals which formerly kept this technology from catching "fire" so to speak.

http://www.biodiesel.org/ &lt;-- Perfect site to prove it's not just a protype or alternative fule, it's going to be our fule.

http://www.afdc.doe.gov/altfuel/bio_made.html &lt;--Explains how it's made and what it is.

http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel.html &lt;-- full of fun facts and examples of it's progress.

I had a link that showed a great list of Diesel Engine cars people in the United States are planning on buying but I can't find it. I actually posted it somewhere in this forum. It might be on the "economy" section. This is a trend spreading west from Britain. Not too long ago only 10% of the cars on their roads were Diesel Engines. Now it's apparantly up to 44%. VW is leading the pack, but in the U.S. there are a handful of new cars in production. Here are some links to desiel car trends and such:

http://www.greenconsumerguide.com/t...amp;fuel=diesel

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/2332669.stm


All main party politicians say they are into funding alternative energies. It's what politicians say to get your vote! Thatcher said it twenty years ago and then proceeded to cut the budget for off-shore wave generation and wind turbines.

The first thing Bush did when getting into office was cut the funding into renewable energies by 50% and cut the funding for research into cleaner more efficient cars and trucks by 28%

America has oil men in power right now. Their friends are oil men, their backers are oil men, GETIT! - stop kidding yourself.

(obviously we are going to run out of oil one day so it is a good idea to have alternatives when the juice stops flowing but while the money's rolling in....)


Old Post 10-09-2003 12:35 PM
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JY_French
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post #7  quote:

Hydrogen production is not really an environment - friendly process since it mainly comes today from catalytic reforming of oil or related chemical processes. At the beginning of the transformation process is ... oil.
I remember reading an article from a scientific monthly dealing with this issue. It was instructive but gave a break to a lot of fantasies about hydrogen. The global yield might be worse even if power cells themselves are more efficient than a classical thermic engine.
In fact, the companies advantaged by cars powered with hydrogen would be ... the oil companies. Guess why Bush is so fond of them ?


Old Post 10-09-2003 06:01 PM
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post #8  quote:

Sorry, I meant: Guess why Bush is so fond of hydrogen (in the end, he's fond of oil companies, of course).

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post #9  quote:

you go JY.

Just because America is "addicted" to oil, does not make it ok. Just because our major international engergy companies with huge ties into oil find alternative energy less profitable, does not make it ok. Just because the average american is too lazy or too ignorant to fight these companies, and thier destruction of the environment on which we depend for our very lives, DOES NOT MAKE IT OK.

Wake up America, you are the worlds largest polluter. Your addiction to oil and dirty energy is ruining the earth for your children. Your unwillingness to find compromise in even the simplest of places is unreasonable and dangerous.

I am an American. I'm waking up, albiet slowly.


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post #10  quote:

it is an amazing conceit humans have that we can spew a little smoke into the air and alter the climate of the earth. the ecosystem of the earth is not fragile. humans are not ruining the earth. there is no such thing as global warming. a lot of you need to "wake up".

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post #11  quote:

quote:
Originally posted by Larke2000
it is an amazing conceit humans have that we can spew a little smoke into the air and alter the climate of the earth. the ecosystem of the earth is not fragile. humans are not ruining the earth. there is no such thing as global warming. a lot of you need to "wake up".


Conceit? Then what were all those dumbasses doing signing the Kyoto treaty on carbon emmisions (well except for that smart oil-guy Mr Bush), and what was all that stuff about aerosols and fridge gases etc. You honestly thing politicians and the business world would have put up with any of that cost if there was no truth in it causing climate change?

Or, Larke2000, are you trying to imply that some big conspiracy is being pushed on us for some reason or other. Any idea why they'd want to do that?


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post #12  quote:

The big conspiracy about carbon emmissions is from environmentalists and their "global warming studies." Every study i've seen on global warming has a margin for error larger than the effect that cars are supposedly having. The world is slowly getting warmer, but it's something that is happening on its own. There has never been a single study that proves fossil fuel emmissions are a significant factor in the earth's climate. The kyoto treaty has 0 effect on the world's climate, and 'smart oil-guy Bush' realized that all it was doing was handcuffing America. As usual, Bush is looking out for america's interests, and people are giving him greif. Although, the same people would give him greif anyway, so i'd just as soon see him do what's best for the good ol' US of A.

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post #13  quote:

here is a quote from Bush as to why he will not sign kyoto: "I'm not in the business of purposely damaging my country's economy, because if we hurt my country we hurt the rest of the world, too. I'm not signing it." thank you President Bush!

about global warming. let me be clear. i'm not saying the earth's climate isn't dynamic. i'm just saying that the earth's climate isn't so dainty as to be affected by human beings.

the middle ages were warmer than today. must have been all the dragons.

"Without sulfate aerosols, computer models indicate our hemisphere should have already warmed about 2.3 degrees Celsius as a result of the greenhouse effect. The observed warming this century is a scant 0.65 degrees. If the sulfate hypothesis fails, the argument devolves into what the "skeptics" have said for decades: the earth simply isn't going to warm all that much." excerpt from this article


and from the nut farm:

quote:
What the IPCC is saying is that global warming will cause in "some places" and/or "others":

More intense wet periods.
More intense dry periods.
More intense wet and dry periods.
Less intense wet periods.
Less intense dry periods.
And less intense wet and dry periods.
wow. it's all so clear now. excerpt from this article


Old Post 10-09-2003 09:46 PM
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JY_French
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post #14  quote:

quote:
Originally posted by Larke2000
here is a quote from Bush as to why he will not sign kyoto: "I'm not in the business of purposely damaging my country's economy, because if we hurt my country we hurt the rest of the world, too. I'm not signing it." thank you President Bush!

Hurting economy ... this is a short-sighted view. I would appreciate to understand why and how. The Kyoto protocole is intended to concern everybody, so the constraints would normaly apply to everybody. Of course, the simple fact to disregard appears advantageous at firts sight: if you are out of the game, these drawbacks don't concern you. It is somewhat a kind of disloyal economical competition - on a short term basis however.
Indeed, being forced to save energy to comply with the new rules may first appear disadvantageous. But, once the modernization and rationalization of economy work done, huge returns on investments are obtained. Production processes, transportation means are more efficient and more reliable.
In fact, the economical argument does not make sense. If Bush was the chaiman of an energy sky-high consumer plant, I would not consider him as a good one. Unless the plant is not that profitable and he wants to embellish the accounts - in such a case he would not spend money in investments. Bush is not certain about the future of US inc. ?

about global warming. let me be clear. i'm not saying the earth's climate isn't dynamic. i'm just saying that the earth's climate isn't so dainty as to be affected by human beings.
the middle ages were warmer than today. must have been all the dragons.

Hmmm .... Wishful thinking. On this matter one will indeed find all kind of arguments. The middle ages were warmer than today ? Well, it is an established fact that during 2 or 3 centuries it has been colder (around 1200 - 1500 AC but the precise period is to be confirmed).

"Without sulfate aerosols, computer models indicate our hemisphere should have already warmed about 2.3 degrees Celsius as a result of the greenhouse effect. The observed warming this century is a scant 0.65 degrees. If the sulfate hypothesis fails, the argument devolves into what the "skeptics" have said for decades: the earth simply isn't going to warm all that much." excerpt from this article

and from the nut farm:

wow. it's all so clear now. excerpt from this article [/B]


Well ... it is true that global warming might have strange side-effects such as local cooling or some glaciers expanding, due to local ocean streams perturbations or change in precipitation.
The canadian icecap melting used to make the Atlantic ocean being less salted. This phenomenum then caused the Gulfstream being stopped or weakened, then the climate became colder ... in Europe. This is complex and everything is related.
But GLOBALLY a warming up occurs and cause an elevation of the oceans and world-scale climate perturbations. The impact of human activities on the climate is an established fact. This is not the volcanos that made the CO2 concentration reaching the level it is today over 2 centuries only...


Old Post 10-09-2003 11:18 PM
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post #15  quote:

if we can affect the climate (which i believe we can't) then i guess we all just need to drive more cars.

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post #16  quote:

Cow farts are what's eating the ozone layer. How do we know the hole in the ozone layer hasn't been there forever? How do we know it hasn't been fluctuating forever?

Anyway, I'm satisfied with the evidense I've provided in this thread. OIL is not going to our main source forever.


Old Post 10-10-2003 05:34 AM
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Dragonhalitosis
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post #17  quote:

Sayak you are the master when it comes to knowing about the sybnthetic alternatives to oil. But as you moere or lesss coceded those alternatives to oil haven't been proven yet the 'stratigic oil' arguement still stands. btw the BBC report that I got the arguement from pomnited out that Chaney recieved a report early on in this administration detailing exactly this problem. but I will be happy if these solutions pan out.

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