Can we force people to take on Western Ideals?

Post-9/11 Era Forum

Gee, thanks for reminding us that the Iraqi people, having a different culture, probably preferrred to have their country run by a murderous dictator and see no value in the Western ideal of not oppressing people and killing/raping/torturing indiscriminately. How culturally naive of us.

Or was your point that the Iraqi people probably want to rule their own country? Which, by the way, is a stated goal of the coalition. Are you finally getting it?

Davedom, are you suggesting that no government is better than another, just as long as the people under that govt. can endure it? Perhaps we should have left Hitler in power in Germany, after all the Germans didn't mind him. Democracy CAN work anywhere, the reason why Iraq seems to be resisting it is because of the people there who don't necessarily hate the idea of democracy, they hate the idea of America putting it in place.

Most iraqis have done so, the problem is we only hear about those who are resisting ... basically terrorists who are imbedded in the society. I don't think anyone assumed that the terrorists would welcome the US with open arms, and we should not abandon the rest of the Iraqi people just because of the actions of the fanatical in that population. And as for Bush and Blair being incompotent, they both warned that this would be a long haul, not a quick fix. Just because YOU didn't take that to heart doesn't make THEM incompotent.

What's a spotty teenager?

Is it a kind of bird?

No, that's a scarlet tanager.

Nothing symbolizes the hypocrisy of America more than the picture of Rumsfeld shaking hands with Saddam. To the average Black American, this war is about OIL and nothing more. These knuckleheads "Americaaah" & "Ickle" probably watch old movies of happy, singing black slaves on Massa's plantation and swear they show the real truth.

Oil was just one of the factors for Iraq

But one thing I disagree on is this war was to liberate the Iraqi People

If that was true then whats stopping Bush from liberating countries that have even more brutal dictators?

ANSWER THAT

We must remember that the ways of Orientals are not our ways, nor their thoughts our thoughts. Often, when we think of them backward and stupid, they think us meddlesome and absurd. The loom of time moves slowly with them, and they care not for high pressure and the roaring of the wheels. Our system may be good for us; but it is neither equally, nor altogether good for them. Satan found it better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven; and the normal Asiatic would sooner be misgoverned by Asiatics than well governed by Europeans.

Exactly why millions of asians run to europe and america for better life. Our system is better in almost every aspect.

the reason why Iraq seems to be resisting it is because of the people there who don't necessarily hate the idea of democracy, they hate the idea of America putting it in place.

Also they might be disinformed about western society. Once they see benefits in terms of much better life even before 1990 not only Iraq but other countries in the region will turn away from islamism and make a step towards civilized world.

Yes nowar. I said almost every aspect - i do know enough of them to make comparison. Disinformed about life in a western-style society, where people enjoy civilized life-style compared to Afghanistan.
Western society is not flawless but overall much better than asian or african one. You cant argue that. If they could live better in their society than in our they wouldnt come here so massively. It shows how big is the difference between west and east (otherwise they would not move) and which one is better.

maybe if the west governments were "playing the game" fairly they wouldn't have to come in the west ........ maybe ........

you know enough ? I learned one thing: you -meaning someone - never know enough ......

happy guy you must be

Originally posted by nowar

maybe if the west governments were "playing the game" fairly they wouldn't have to come in the west ........ maybe ........

What do you mean?

you know enough ? I learned one thing: you -meaning someone - never know enough ......

That's irrelevant. I mean i know enough about pros and cons of eastern and western society to compare them. Ofcourse i keep learning new facts but i got the whole picture. Western society IS better.

Western society IS better ...... based on what you think to know ..... your opinion ......

some are better in the west while some other aspects are better in the others .... now that's just the weight you give to these aspects that give you the idea of which one IS better ..... and the weight you will give depends on what you think is the most important .......

but this is YOUR choice .......


and what I mean about "fair game" ?

do you know that producing cotton in US is cheaper than in other countries which was cotton producer ?

do you know that it's cheaper to buy banana from Island than from Brasil or others banana producers contries ?

do you know that it's cheaper to buy sugar from western countries than from original sugar countries producers ?


Now make you mind works and try to find the reason ...... "fair game" ........

A clue, just a clue: remember what Bush Jr tried to do with the US steel and non US one sometime ago ? it's just the begining of the answer ........

I will let you search why

Originally posted by nowar

Western society IS better ...... based on what you think to know ..... your opinion ......

some are better in the west while some other aspects are better in the others .... now that's just the weight you give to these aspects that give you the idea of which one IS better ..... and the weight you will give depends on what you think is the most important .......

but this is YOUR choice .......

Some aspects have more weight than others and it's not my opinion. Overall western society is better, and if you are still in doubt we could list every aspect we can think of and compare them...

and what I mean about "fair game" ?

do you know that producing cotton in US is cheaper than in other countries which was cotton producer ?

do you know that it's cheaper to buy banana from Island than from Brasil or others banana producers contries ?

do you know that it's cheaper to buy sugar from western countries than from original sugar countries producers ?


Now make you mind works and try to find the reason ...... "fair game" ........

A clue, just a clue: remember what Bush Jr tried to do with the US steel and non US one sometime ago ? it's just the begining of the answer ........

I will let you search why

It's not just USA that has high taxes on imports of certain groups of goods or materials - EU does as well. Every country does. It's cheaper to buy banana from banana producing countries and it's cheaper to buy sugar from western countries... what's the problem with it? Maybe you suggest that we fix the price on it so that it won't matter where to buy and what to buy? And what does this have to do with societies?

I knew you would not be able to understand ......

the question is: why is it cheaper to buy the goods from western countries than from original producers one's ?

you should find the answer just by checking the cotton production in USA, use google, you will find

Please nowar, stop teasing them...they`ll don´t get it anyway...

Why is are american much more expensive in EU than in the states? Maybe to protect their car industry? Why dont EU countries return stolen vehicles reported from Russia? Exactly same reason was pursued by Bush when he raised import taxes on steel: to give national industry a boost.

Why is it that BMW, Audi and Mercedes are cheaper in the U.S. than in Germany? I'll also bet that a glass of French wine is cheaper here than in France.
Go figure...

What does Nokia have to do with trading policies and the original topic - pushing western ideals on 'non-western' people? Nobody here as far as i know mentioned that Nokia is a japanese company.
USA1: as far as i know german cars are very cheap in germany - particularly mercedes, since i have seen garbage collectors in Frankfurt (spelling?) airport driving a merc 320. Maybe it's his high salary, go figure... In North America these cars are expensive due to transportation costs as well as import taxes. But still affordable for a middle class. While a Chrysler or a GM are a LOT more expensive in EU than in USA. I wonder, why?

A quick thought... goods are cheaper where taxes are lower. And the higher taxes (in Europe) are in Denmark, Sweden, Germany, France, afair.
However, i'm going back to the thread topic.
Forcing people to take on Western Ideals...

First of all: what is a Western ideal? Surely not MTV or the Coca-Cola, like some global-socialists (using the INVAR's definition) may say. They are not ideals. They are only products of our industries that are led by men with a Western culture. So, culture and ideals are things owned by men and women; therefore, we may understend what is a Western ideal by understanding what is the Western individual ideal.
The individual culture is made up by the things you experience during your life and the education you receive, so is made up by a language, a religion, a political orientment, and smaller things like food preferences, your favourite sport with your favourite team etc.

Language: There's no leading language identifying itself with Western culture.
Religion: Western ideal in this case is easy to be identified with Christianity. Bush itself recalls to Christian ideals when he says "Those who aren't with us are against us"... Jesus said this. (Luckily Bush-or the U.S.- is not God, even if i think he's working on this ).
Political orientment: I'm thinking about democracy. But democracy means, from the greek, "power to the people". No secret that the trend in major Western democracies is that the number of voters is decreasing. The reason is that they feel that nothing can be changed; no matter who's in the seat, the country will be led in the same way.
This is because the principle for a typical(good) Western leader is: i'll do the best i can to ensure my people a good life-style. This means he will do the best to keep the economy running.
So we are in an "economocracy". Economy has the power.

Now some economy gurus say: we need that non-Western countries (those where there isn't democracy or those who don't share our ideals) become a market that can be exploited, otherwise we're not sure that the economy will grow as expected and maybe you will face a recession. And this can be done by transforming those countries in countries based on western ideals. It's not me who's saying this, you may check this at the site of PNAC www.newamericancentury.org . In these pages, you will learn that a strong military is needed to achieve this result.

In the past such a change produced good results- i'm thinking about some ex-pact or ex-soviet countries (Czech Rep., Poland, Hungary, the Baltic countries, some areas of Russia itself), where the quality of life is becoming better. But these were ready to accept a Western leadership, since they shared some principles (e.g., Christianity) with the West.

The trouble come from Islamic world, particularly from theocracies. In theocracies the leader is god itself, so people is quite sure that they have a good administration *. Why should they change god with economy, or better, why should they change faith with personal satisfaction or realization, if you were teached since your birth to not?
In this case, do we have the right to change their mind with the force?
Of course not. But we must do everything to give to these peoples the chance to do a free choice. The same choice that we do every day when we meet somebody who's not lucky like us, to help him (faith or what do you call it) or to turn away ignoring him (personal satisfaction or sthg like that).
It's called freedom. This is an ideal that is not only a Western ideal.


*Indeed, they have not. Most of their leaders exploit the 'divine inspiration' that they are expected to have, to push masses against other objectives, like U.S., than themselves, who are true responsible for the bad conditions of people in those countries.

Let me tell you something. This idea that Iraqis where being "Tortured and raped" under Saddam is BS. Yes SOME where, but probably 95% weren't. I currently know a lot of former USSR people, some where even party members, and I know them well enough to know through conversations, that they're not all happy that the USSR fell. Many in fact MISS IT and say they had a good life there and that they wish they would have let Gorbachev make a few reforms rather than shelve the hole thing. So no, for the majority of people, they weren't under constatnt survelance and BS like that, and they where better off in their mundane day to day lives BEFORE these regimes fell, only a tiny minority of Sahkarovs where being persecuted-the average Ruskie's life in the USSR wasn't a whole lot different than a typical Joe Schmoe American-and that's true.

The funny part is that America promises these countries that if they become capitalist, western style democracies they'll have high standards of living, what they don't tell them is that it may take 9-10 generations.

Originally posted by NothingSacred
Let me tell you something. This idea that Iraqis where being "Tortured and raped" under Saddam is BS. Yes SOME where, but probably 95% weren't.

Only 5%. Forgivable, isn't it?

I currently know a lot of former USSR people, some where even party members, and I know them well enough to know through conversations, that they're not all happy that the USSR fell. Many in fact MISS IT and say they had a good life there and that they wish they would have let Gorbachev make a few reforms rather than shelve the hole thing.

Usually high class people live better than low class. In a western society there are rich, people with power like police, middle-class who are the majority and poor who are in minority and every person has same rights and same opportunities (theoretically). In USSR money bring you power and power let's you make more money, you simply have no rights if you have no power. I dont even mention social, humanitarian, political and economical problems of such an oppressive regime.

So no, for the majority of people, they weren't under constatnt survelance and BS like that,

Ofcourse not the whole population, but as soon as you even have an idea of going against the regime you can be sure they're spying on you. There simply is no opposition to government.

and they where better off in their mundane day to day lives BEFORE these regimes fell,

Yes, every country-wide reform affecting all aspects of life always causes chaos. You should know what happened in USSR before 1941 and during the war years...

only a tiny minority of Sahkarovs where being persecuted-the average Ruskie's life in the USSR wasn't a whole lot different than a typical Joe Schmoe American-and that's true.

LOL If it was like that every russian child (and adult) wouldnt dream of moving to America or to Europe. It was called 'iron curtains' - when you live and understand that you can not get out of this sh!t. Ask those americans who visited USSR before it fell.

The funny part is that America promises these countries that if they become capitalist, western style democracies they'll have high standards of living, what they don't tell them is that it may take 9-10 generations.

Better late than never.

the population of my city is something like 10,000 people. 500 people in my city alone being raped and torchered is absolutely unacceptable. I wouldn't stand for it. I'd wait in the dark for some government mother f*cker to come into my home to rape my wife (if I had one) and I'd be ready to give the whole crew an ass kicking they never imagined. (Ever see braveheart?)

Where do you live sayzak? And what does your post have to do with our topic? Ofcourse if i knew that some agents from a governmental structure are going to come for my family members, i would do whatever i can to save them. Anybody would. And it seems to me that ass kicking won't help you too much - it's better to escape, preferably to another country.

I was just making fun of the statement that "maybe 95% weren't being torchered and raped" or whatever. My post was more of a joke than anything. If I lived under a government like that I'd either try to spark a revolution or I would move the hell out.

I live in Minnesota.

Speaking of western values, what the hell are we talking about here? Really?

Which values? This reactionary and shallow argument keeps popping up.

Do you mean democracy in general? One of its specific forms? A new form?

Or cultural norms?

What do you mean exactly Dave. Please be specific and identify what western values we are imposing and how they are incompaible with, uh, "eastern" values.

Thanks.

Charles they dont know what 'western values' are. They think western values are 'Playboy', McDonalds and beer. They dont know what are eastern values, not even an idea about their diversity and forms in different countries.
I am very interested in what's DaveDom gonna respond.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Charles
[B]

OK guys.

Please give me an example of another developed country that has MORE open trading policies than the USA.

Sorry to burst your buuble on the US and it's open tradin policies but this is a misconception, roughly speaking tarrifs and quotas that the US place on imports cost the US public about $2 billion annually

Well trding between EU countries i.e France and itlay, UK and Germany there are no restriction on products or people, Japan is pretty open to trade from around the world, but again put in context to the spending power and demand from the US, you cant seriously compare the number of imports and exports to say a country like Luxembourg.

Actuall I made a mistake the US tarrifs cost US consumers $233.4 billion a year, apparently the US importes came to £723 billion but would have been close to $110 billion had the tarrifs dropped. The Us also exported $499 billion worth of products but that would have been closer to $130 billlion had it not been for tarrifs from blocs such as EU.
This research was done by an economist called Howard Wall he works for or was commiosned to do this report rom the Washinfton DC institue for international economics.

I don't think the word "force" is correct. Maybe influence is a better word. They either accept it or not.
Remember, the US is a baby next to the rest of the cultures so, it's impossible to force it on anyone. They either see the value or they don't.
Communism and Ruthless Dictators beware! Your people may want the change.

Actually just doing a bit more research Charles and the figure you want are a bit hard to get. But I found out that Japan is the most open country to trade