I have to vent a little. It seems as though the mainstream media doesn't want to hear or wants to censor all intelligent antiwar voices. For example, Fox News has some liberal, democratic, antiwar people sometimes, but when they do they find the dumbest person they can and put him up against three conservatives. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a liberal. I'm an independent thinker. When an intelligent antiwar voice is allowed on the air the conservatives sum it up to pure rhetoric (persuasive talking), as if all they were trying to do was speak persuasively. Well, the ironic thing is that all I ever hear coming out of the conservatives mouths is pure rhetoric, and it's all the same. It's as if they've been handed pamphlets at a prowar rally that told them what to say. It's honestly scary because they all really do say the same old rhetorical lines when asked questions. They're saying the same things that the conservatives were saying during the Vietnam war.
I guess what really pisses me off is that all over America these people are laying a heavy guilt trip on anyone who might be questioning our president and his decisions. The do so with statements like, "we need to support our president", "we need to support our troops", "why are you sticking up for Saddam?", "you sound like the French", "you won't be convinced until there's another mushroom cloud", "there's nothing wrong with loving your country", "the left hates America", "we want to protect America". This spin (using buzzwords to manipulate people's opinions) is typical of the things you'll hear during any debate on any of the major news networks. You ask them a question about Iraq and they'll give you an answer about 9/11. It's all a part of the brainwashing process. You ask them about the innocent men, women, and children that will die and they come back with "Saddam has killed thousands of his own people" as if that makes it OK for us to do it. They want to make you think that questioning Bush's authority is unpatriotic. Although president Bush likes to drape himself in the American flag, the last time I checked he was not America, we are.
The polls (in America) say that most people are for sending ground troops into Iraq, but the part that the conservatives leave out it that these people are only in favor with UN approval. That means that without the UN approval, most people are likely to be against an invasion. Let's assume, just to be fair that only 40% of American's were against this war without UN approval. Isn't that significant enough? When over 1/3 of the population disagrees with what the government is doing isn't that cause for reconsiderations? Most of the prowar people that I talk to want to think that we're going to war because of 9/11. Some think it's revenge, some think it's to stop another from happening, and some think that Saddam and Osama are working together. Where could they have gotten an idea like that? Our leader has put that idea into their heads even though there isn't a single shred of evidence to back it up. Most educated and informed people find the idea of Saddam and Osama working together to be preposterous. Osama hates Saddam Hussein and would kill him if he had the chance. However, the Bush administration thinks that they can play upon the geopolital ignorance and racism of the American people by lumping them into the same bin and telling us that the war on Iraq is the war on terror.
So, what is more unpatriotic, doubting our elected officials or lying to the American public from a position of authority? Well if you said the second one then I've got a couple of tidbits for you. I've heard (and so have other informed people) president Bush lie on numerous occasions. I can specifically recall two. The first lie is the one where he says that Saddam kicked UN weapons inspector out of the country in 1998. In almost every speech he and the other members of his administration declare that Saddam "kicked them out of the country". Well, that's just not true. The fact of the matter is that the UN and any other organizations that were there at the time withdrew themselves because the US could not guarantee their safety when they were getting ready to start the Dessert Fox bombing campaign. This is a well known fact. Look it up or ask an expert. Another lie that president Bush has told recently was that Iraq was trying to gather ingredients to make weapons of mass destruction from Africa. The US presented documents as evidence. Those documents were found to be falsified. Yet, our president continues to preach it as a scare tactic in every single speech. These are flat out lies told to every American, but don't forget the exploitative deceit of the continued mentioning of 9/11. They've successfully used the left-over emotions from 9/11 to gain support for a completely unrelated invasion of another country.
How about some of the arguments that the Bush administration is making for this war? What about the way Saddam treats his own people? President Bush talks about how Saddam has killed and tortured thousands of his own people. The tell us how he is an evil dictator and we can't morally allow an evil dictator like him to stay in power. Well, I hate to tell you this, but the chemical weapons that Saddam used on his own people were given to him by us. Yes, we shipped them to him. And guess what, since Saddam was our friend back then, we covered his ass at the United Nations. We made sure that Saddam didn't get into any trouble over that. We knew what Saddam was like. We knew that he tortured his own people, but when he's your ally, you look the other way. Listen to the next speech our president gives. He's got a thousand claims, but nothing to back it up. That's all we and other countries want to see is some proof. He says they have pictures of biological and nuclear weapons being moved around. Surely a picture wouldn't compromise our national security, so why can't we see it. They can't show us any evidence because there is none. You know that politicians are liars, but you need to realize that our president is the biggest one of all.
There's other reasons that the Bush administration has given for this war. You keep hearing the words, "Saddam needs to disarm" and "he's had 12 years to disarm". They keep saying this over and over again. Of course the repetition is a part of the marketing. Of course, what they're referring to is an old UN Resolution. I forget the exact number (six hundred and something), but it was a resolution that said that all countries in the region need to disarm of any weapons of mass destruction. This includes our allies such as Israel. Israel is known to have over 200 weapons of mass destruction and have violated more UN resolutions than any other country. They commit acts of terrorism constantly killing innocent people. They have invaded more countries than any other country in the region. However, they are a US ally and are protected from the UN. It seems that the only time that the US wants the UN resolutions enforced are when they're against a country we want to go to war with. Also, have you noticed our talk of UN relevancy. It seems that if the UN does what we want it to, it's relevant, but if it doesn't, it's irrelevant. That make a lot of sense, doesn't it?
So, if the Bush administration is lying about their reasons for wanting to go to war, then why in the heck are we going to war? Well, there are a lot of theories. Think about the facts. Pretend that you are a jury member and you have to decide if the motive is there. Iraq sits on the second largest supply of oil in the region. Major US oil companies have already made arrangement to produce it. President Bush, Vice President Cheney, and Condoleezza Rice all have ties to big oil companies. Who knows what's going on behind closed doors. Another financial reason for going to war is the nation building that will have to occur after the war. The jobs would almost exclusively go to US construction companies and our government has already started taking bids for these jobs. What about the fact that Bush's father failed to take Saddam out of power during the gulf war? How about the fact that Saddam tried to have George W. Bush senior assassinated. I don't know about you, but if this was court, I'd have to say that is all the motive I need.
Have you thought about the costs of war in dollars and lives? At the absolute worst time our economy has faced since George's dad was in charge, we're getting ready to spend at least 100 billion dollars on this war. You could buy Iraq for that amount of money. Ok, but what about the American and Iraqi lives that will be lost. This war is expected to be way more violent than Desert Storm (what a noble name for a war, I wonder what kind of noble slogan this one will have). In Dessert Storm 100,000 Iraqis lost their lives. 15,000 of those we innocent men, women, and children. That's 5 times that amount of people killed in the world trade center attacks. This time the casualties could be far greater. Some have estimated as much as 5 times the casualties of Desert Storm. Do you remember desert storm on television. Just a bunch of computer graphics with some firework-like explosions for you to ooh and ahh. Little did you know that there were people dying with each explosion and the government wouldn't allow any picture of the people we killed back into the US. There is likely to be a lot of urban warfare this time around too, which means more American casualties. So, I say 'if you believe in this war so much, sign up or send one of your children to war' to all the chickenhawks. One of the reasons Bush keeps giving in support of this war is that "Saddam kills his own people". Well, he did a long time ago and we supported him and provided the biological weapons, but we have killed far more of his people and will kill hundreds of thousands more in this coming war.
Just a couple of other things for you to think about. President Bush has said "I don't want us to go to war" as recently as that latest news conference the other day, but he's sent a quarter of a million troops over there already. He's got propaganda flyers ready to drop on Iraq already printed. Everything is in place for war. If he hopes we don't have to go to war then why is he so ready? Some people say that he's had this plan since he took office and I don't doubt it. Many people say that this war is illegal anyways. Besides the fact that it violates the UN law that no country can attack another country without defending itself, it is a violation of US law. It is not the president's right to declare war, it is congress that has to declare war and the president is actually being sued right now for this action by parents of a US soldier stationed overseas.
Don't feel guilty for disagreeing with your president. If it wasn't for those thousands of those black democratic votes turning up missing in George's brother Jeb's state, we might have a different president. Hell, if we didn't have the stupid electoral votes system, we would have a different president because Gore had more votes anyway.
Anybody with any sense that thinks for themselves would be against this war. Loose the false sense of trust and start asking questions. Think about why the reason for this war changes every month. If you want what is best for this country then think about our relationship with the rest of the world. Did you know that more people in the world think that president Bush is a greater threat to peace than Saddam Hussein? And yes, some countries are on our side like Brittan (51st state) and Spain, but they're doing so in direct opposition to what their people want. As much as 85-90% of their citizens are opposed to a US invasion of Iraq. So, president Bush has managed to turn the rest of the world against us, used the tragedy of September 11th to manipulate us, and told us outright lies. How patriotic.
I'm sorry this is so long, I've just been dying to say something about this madness!
id like to start out by saying that this is the longest post I have ever read. I was wondering how you came to the conclusion that the president is lying. could you give some proof to back it up, you can say anything, it doesn't mean its true, I am sick of hearing about this is a war for oil, an that tons of innocent Iraqis will die. Why are we funding hydrogen car research? True that is a long term thing but we have oil reserves we can use if we are running low which we aren't. Also countries like France aren't supporting our war effort because they do business with Saddam. One last thing i would like to see some proof of us giving the weapons to him, which by the way, if it is true its not Bush's fault
Originally posted by Caps#1 id like to start out by saying that this is the longest post I have ever read. I was wondering how you came to the conclusion that the president is lying. could you give some proof to back it up, you can say anything, it doesn't mean its true, I am sick of hearing about this is a war for oil, an that tons of innocent Iraqis will die. Why are we funding hydrogen car research? True that is a long term thing but we have oil reserves we can use if we are running low which we aren't. Also countries like France aren't supporting our war effort because they do business with Saddam. One last thing i would like to see some proof of us giving the weapons to him, which by the way, if it is true its not Bush's fault
Well, when the president says something that is not true, you have to assume that he (of all people) knows better. The UN weapons inspectors and any other organizations were warned that their safety couldn't be guaranteed, so they withdrew before the bombing campaign. This is just a fact. To say otherwise is a lie. Bush said otherwise repeatedly in his speaches. They're lying about Saddam's weapons of mass destruction. This is just common sense. Bush, Rumsfeld, and everyone else says that we know they have weapons of mass destruction. Well, if we know then why don't we tell the UN inspectors where to look. Why don't we share some of our evidence.
That "France is in bed with Iraq" stuff is just a bunch of propaganda. They would be with us if we had some evidence.
Yeah, we're just now starting to research hydrogen cell powered cars. Let me just say that the research is going very slow and they're in no hurry to finish. I'd like to know the exact amount the government is funding by the way. Do you have any figures? I know that GM is doing fuel cell research. I'd like to know what role the Bush administration is playing.
Besides, the real reason that we've jumped on the fuel cell bandwagon is because Japan is doing it and we don't want to be left in the cold.
ok, buddy, once again, you not given me any solid evidence, a link to a credibe website, anything, so you say that this France stuff is a bunch of propaganda, i could say the same thing about what you said. You watch and see what happens when the war is over, watch the French's people intrest go up
If you want what is best for this country then think about our relationship with the rest of the world. Did you know that more people in the world think that president Bush is a greater threat to peace than Saddam Hussein? And yes, some countries are on our side like Brittan (51st state) and Spain, but they're doing so in direct opposition to what their people want. As much as 85-90% of their citizens are opposed to a US invasion of Iraq. So, president Bush has managed to turn the rest of the world against us
i will back you up on this.
you are told that some country are with USA for the war, but the world is raising fear and hanger toward GWB. Even in britain, your "apparently" best supporter, Blair is facing awesome oposition, not only from the public, but also from his own gouvernment who menace to leave their jobs if he keeps following George blindly.
never before the popularity of USA has been so low, and it keeps going down. Go to war without UN approval would be the worse thing you had ever done.
And if you get the vote, we would all know that it was just that you pay or threat enough for it.
Originally posted by Caps#1 ok, buddy, once again, you not given me any solid evidence, a link to a credibe website, anything, so you say that this France stuff is a bunch of propaganda, i could say the same thing about what you said. You watch and see what happens when the war is over, watch the French's people intrest go up
Gee, you believe a politician without any solid evidence, but you don't believe me, lol! People just want to believe the president. Ok, I didn't discover those lies myself. In Norman Solomon's book War on Iraq, he provides solid evidence of these facts, then quotes President Bush saying the opposite. Some of his evidence includes credible media reporting and quotes from other government officials. The book points our many deceptions from the Bush administration. In case you wondering if the Norman is some liberal conspiricy theorist, he's not. He's the head of the Institute for Public Accuracy. So his job is pretty much to find lies and straighten them out.
I think it's crazy how many Americans are so quick to accuse foreign governments of being corrupt, but they never think that America could be. I recently read that America was voted to have like the 10th or 20th most corrupt government in the world. Instead of living in denial, why not recognize the problem and try to do something about it.
Originally posted by Caps#1 so your saying that the popularity of the US is more important than the safety of the US citizens?
Attacking Iraq will not make us safer, but quite the opposite. The more hated the US is, the more acts of terror will be committed. Besides, I keep hearing everyone crying about their safety. I personally think it's cowardly to kill just based on the possibility that they might attack us. Based on that logic, why don't we blow up the rest of the world so none of them can attack us? Since nobody in America seems to think that the rest of the world matters anyway.
Well, that's what you do in a civilized society. You don't go around killing gang members because they'll probably commit a crime. You don't punish people before they've even commited a crime.
Besides, why would Iraq attack the US when they know that it would mean their certain destruction. There's no way they would do it!
I recently read that America was voted to have like the 10th or 20th most corrupt government in the world. Instead of living in denial, why not recognize the problem and try to do something about it.
which is it?
That's an awful lot of numbers between 10 and 20 to be accurate.
I have noticed this with the UN vetoes - those using them seem to have multi-billion dollar contracts with IRAQ for oil. They do not want to lose these...
Saddam could attack the US indirectly - by selling items to Al-Quada. The ones bouncing around Baghdad with bombs strapped to them right now.
Originally posted by Dreamzwalker which is it?
That's an awful lot of numbers between 10 and 20 to be accurate.
That's not the point, it's just something I read. The point is that people around the world percieve us to be one of the most corrupt governments in the world.
quote:
Originally posted by Dreamzwalker I have noticed this with the UN vetoes - those using them seem to have multi-billion dollar contracts with IRAQ for oil. They do not want to lose these...
That's conservative propaganda. Dirt that the war makers have dug up to console people who wonder why many countries aren't with us. Hell, maybe their governments are corrupt, but not more than ours.
BTW, at least they're doing what their people want. The vast majority of their citizens don't want war. If the UK and Spain were listening to their people they'd oppose us too.
ummm - I said I "Noticed this" meaning "I decided for myself 2 months ago." whatever propaganda your talking about is your own decision.
Every Government is corrupted - the people know this. Ours has been since the end of the civil war and perhaps before. Political personal of every country has hidden "Agendas"
That's conservative propaganda. Dirt that the war makers have dug up to console people who wonder why many countries aren't with us. Hell, maybe their governments are corrupt, but not more than ours.
I suppose you believe that the entire United Nations is corrupt also? Last I check Resolution 1441 passed with a 15-0 vote. And according to the U.N. and UNSCOM, Iraq was in material breech and in their opinion has failed to fullfill the demands of all Resolutions requiring them to disarm prior to December 1998.
I suppose you believe that the entire United Nations is corrupt also? Last I check Resolution 1441 passed with a 15-0 vote. And according to the U.N. and UNSCOM, Iraq was in material breech and in their opinion has failed to fullfill the demands of all Resolutions requiring them to disarm prior to December 1998.
Yes, 1441 passed, inspections are working, and Iraq is disarming. So, what's the problem? Well, the problem is that the US is claiming that it knows that Iraq has WMD that it hasn't disarmed. Well, if we know that they have it and we know where it is, then where's the evidence? Show it to our allies. Show it to the inspectors.
The reason that they don't want to go to war now is because the inspections/disarmament process is working and they don't believe the US's lies.
They found a weapon that IRAQ failed to account for - does that sound like they are disarming?
Not me - they hid the fact they had it. There's a post here under "blix hid the smoking gun."
Originally posted by Dreamzwalker They found a weapon that IRAQ failed to account for - does that sound like they are disarming?
Not me - they hid the fact they had it. There's a post here under "blix hid the smoking gun."
No, they are the one's that came forward with that weapon. In inspector's didn't even get to discover it because they revealed it themselves. Then, they reluctantly started destroying them even though they say that scientifically they are unable to go father then the allowed distance.
Originally posted by Dreamzwalker Are we talking about the same thing?
No, we weren't, but now I know what you're talking about. Like I said in the other thread I have my doubts.
1. Blix is a logical unbiased person. It's hard to believe he would intentionally leave something important out. He is far more trustworthy than president Bush.
2. A f#$king plane? Give me a break. This is what the US wants to go to war over? You can dump chemicals out of any plane. What is it, like a crop duster or something?
3. It's aweful convienient that this would come out right before they are to vote on the US's new resolution. I think the Bush admin has created a new scheme.
)I was wondering how you came to the conclusion that the president is lying. could you give some proof to back it up, you can say anything, it doesn't mean its true,
ok, buddy, once again, you not given me any solid evidence, a link to a credibe website
Caps, you really are unbelievable. Look at my website - http://www.bevin.de/usa/topic1.htm . Theres a ton of well documented cases of Bush,Rumsfeld,Powell,Blair lying (and all well backed up with proof).
I respect people have differing opinions, but being blind to truth just makes me despair.
Ok, I accept your opinion that this war should be fought, although I disagree with it.
What I don't accept is your blindness to your government's lies+deceptions, your abysmal foreign policy record, and the reality that this war is about a lot more than just defending America against a 'threat' or the good of Iraqi people. A rational discussion over whether this war should be fought cannot be had if you continue to be blind to reality of the situation.
Originally posted by Caps#1 I am sick of hearing about this is a war for oil, an that tons of innocent Iraqis will die. Why are we funding hydrogen car research? True that is a long term thing but we have oil reserves we can use if we are running low which we aren't.
Once you have a hydrogen engine - how much time, you think, it'll take for US to change it's all cars, trucks, tractors, etc? And how much money? Where do you have such 'oil reserves'?
Since price of oil is a part of cost of any product, the war can reduce the price of oil and make American-made goods cheaper.
quote:
Originally posted by Caps#1
Also countries like France aren't supporting our war effort because they do business with Saddam. One last thing i would like to see some proof of us giving the weapons to him, which by the way, if it is true its not Bush's fault
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THey just to say 'something different' Particularly France. The French always has pretensions.
Hey dudes..
I am eager to know if you Americans have realized a change or at least a shift in your American Dream !?
It's that hm, well let's put it this way.. I know that you Americans have this special dream that consists of the belief in your freedom and the belief in personal advancement.. Well, I fancy that the 11th of September was for all of you a drastic change, to avoid the term caesura.. I mean, you always deemed yourselves invincible and invulnerable.. and the 11th of September certainly showed you the contrary, that you're not alone in this world, that your splendid isolation doesn't work anymore... That's at least my opinion. I am really interested to know if you guys have changed your American Dream with the happenings of the 11th of September.. thanks in advance for your answers.
The American Dream is alive and well and possibly stronger than ever before.
invincible and invulnerable no, we just got complacent. It was over 60 years since the last time that we were attacked. We have had lots of incidents with terrorist hijacking our airplanes but we never thought that they would use them as weapons. We learned different and we learned from our mistake. Now that that has happened we will do what it take to prevent it again. And that means being proactive instead of reactive. Who benefits from this? Of course we do, but guess what, so does everyone else.
so, you think that the American Dream is stronger than ever.. I am glad to hear that, of course.. But don't you think that you rather have to give up your splendid isolation..? I mean you just hide yourselves between two oceans and I increasingly get the feeling like all the other Europeans that after the 11th of September, you Americans think that you are the only country out there with Iraq who count. The other countries are really of no concern, I have the impression... I mean you get the impression that you Americans want to seclude yourselves from the outside world and do everything alone now.. But, I rather think we should cooperate and deal with the threat together and not alone.. United we stand..
This is way I get the feeling that you don't want to give up your splendid isolation as this part of the American Dream is called and you want to isolate yourselves more and more.. Is this true or am I wrong ?! Just correct me , if I am amiss.. I am just keen on knowing if something else changed in your American Dream..
thank you =)
Let's cooperate, Let's rid the world of a brutal tyrant that has and intends to use WMD. Oh and by the way he is now planting explosives on his oil wells.
We don't understand why some countries are not seeing the forest for the trees. You are seeing the outside shell of Saddam Hussein. Inside he hates the US, he hates the UK, and our way of life. He continues to defy the United Nations and that is not just the US or UK. He is not disarming.
Do you think he will disarm by inspections, think again. He didn't do it in the last twelve years why should he now?
And I don't believe that we are isolated. At last count there are 41 countries on our side on this issue.
so you have only given up part of your dream, right; viz the commonly believed invulnerability and invicibility.. you have now realized that you are not as invincible as you thought.. America, to my mind, erects a pseudo reality of being a safe place, but september the 11th showed that this is not the case and you have to cooperate with the other countries in order to get rid of those problems, because I think you are not capable to solve this problem on your own..
You're right there goots.. Sorry, I was too inaccurate...
so, what do you think goots is for you still the American Dream !?
to become successful and that's it, or what is it ?!
Sorry, I know we are a little bit off-topic.. wasn't my intention, though...
Originally posted by goots
We don't understand why some countries are not seeing the forest for the trees. You are seeing the outside shell of Saddam Hussein. Inside he hates the US, he hates the UK, and our way of life. He continues to defy the United Nations and that is not just the US or UK. He is not disarming.
Do you think he will disarm by inspections, think again. He didn't do it in the last twelve years why should he now?
And I don't believe that we are isolated. At last count there are 41 countries on our side on this issue.
Look is Saddam the first danger now?
If he hates the US what of it? The whole Muslim world (1 bln people) hates the US. So what?
Pakistan and India both have nuclear weapons and have not used them. And I have not heard of a case where they have used any other WMD so what is your point?
Originally posted by goots Pakistan and India both have nuclear weapons and have not used them. And I have not heard of a case where they have used any other WMD so what is your point?
What if they have used WMDs? Does it make difference?
It does not make a difference but there hasn't been any allegations of those countries selling them too Al-Quada or supporting them financially. if there has been, I just haven't ran across it.
Originally posted by Cabron Hey dudes..
I am eager to know if you Americans have realized a change or at least a shift in your American Dream !?
It's that hm, well let's put it this way.. I know that you Americans have this special dream that consists of the belief in your freedom and the belief in personal advancement.. Well, I fancy that the 11th of September was for all of you a drastic change, to avoid the term caesura.. I mean, you always deemed yourselves invincible and invulnerable.. and the 11th of September certainly showed you the contrary, that you're not alone in this world, that your splendid isolation doesn't work anymore... That's at least my opinion. I am really interested to know if you guys have changed your American Dream with the happenings of the 11th of September.. thanks in advance for your answers.
There's many countries that have way more freedom that this one. My dream is that the US will either catch up or that I'll give up and move.
Yes, but a famous Japan leader (can't remember his name) stated many years ago that "...if the US had not done that, though as terrible as it was - more would have lost their lives. though many died, more were saved."
he kind of sounded like Yoda
