Welcome aboard the Iraqi Gravy train

Post-9/11 Era Forum

Another Terry Jones Classic.
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Well the war has been a huge success, and I guess it's time for congratulations all round. And wow! It's hard to know where to begin.
First, I'd like to congratulate Kellogg Brown & Root (KBR) and the Bechtel Corporation, which are the construction companies most likely to benefit from the reconstruction of Iraq. Contracts in the region of $1 billion should soon coming your way, chaps. Well done! And what with the US dropping 15,000 precision-guided munitions, 7,500 unguided bombs and 750 cruise missiles on Iraq so far and with more to come, there's going to be a lot of reconstruction. It looks like it could be a bonanza year.

Of course, we all know that KBR is the construction side of Halliburton, and it has been doing big business with the military ever since the Second World War. Most recently, it got the plum job of constructing the prison compound for terrorists suspects at Guantanamo Bay. Could be a whole lot more deluxe chicken coops coming your way in the next few months, guys. Stick it to 'em.

I'd also like to add congratulations to Dick Cheney, who was chief executive of Halliburton from 1995 to 2000, and who currently receives a cheque for $1 million a year from his old company. I guess he may find there's a little surprise bonus in there this year. Well done, Dick.

Congratulations, too, to former Secretary of State, George Schultz. He's not only on the board of Bechtel, he's also chairman of the advisory board of the Committee for the Liberation of Iraq, a group with close ties to the White House committed to reconstructing the Iraqi economy through war. You're doing a grand job, George, and I'm sure material benefits will be coming your way, as sure as the Devil lives in Texas.

Oh, before I forget, a big round of appreciation for Jack Sheehan, a retired general who sits on the Defence Policy Board which advises the Pentagon. He's a senior vice president at Bechtel and one of the many members of the Defence Policy Board with links to companies that make money out of defence contracts. When I say 'make money' I'm not joking. Their companies have benefited to the tune of $76bn just in the last year. Talk about a gravy train. Well, Jack, you and your colleagues can certainly look forward to a warm and joyous Christmas this year.

It;s been estimated that rebuilding Iraq could cost anything from $25bn to $100bn and the great thing is that the Iraqis will be paying for it themselves out of their future oil revenues. What's more, President Bush will be able to say, with a straight face, that they're using the money from Iraqi oil to benefit the Iraqi people. 'We're going to use the assets of the people of Iraq, especially their oil assets, to benefit their people,' said Secretary of State Colin Powell, and he looked really sincere. Yessir.

It's so neat it makes you want to run out and buy shares in Fluor. As one of the world's biggest procurement and construction companies, it recently hired Kenneth J. Oscar, who, as acting assistant secretary of the army, took care of the Pentagon's $35bn-a-year procurement budget. So there could also be some nice extra business coming its way soon. Bully for them.

But every celebration has its serious side, and I should like to convey my condolences to all those who have suffered so grievously in this war. Particularly American Airlines, Qantas and Air Canada, and all other travel companies which have seen their customers dwindle, as fear of terrorist reprisals for what the US and Britain have done in Iraq begins to bite.

My condolences also to all those British companies which have been disappointed in their bid to share in the bonanza that all this wonderful high-tech military firepower has created. I know it must be frustrating and disheartening for many of you, especially in the medical field, knowing there are all those severed limbs, all that burnt flesh, all those smashed skulls, broken bones, punctured spleens, ripped faces and mangled children just crying out for your products.

You could be making a fortune out of the drugs, serums and surgical hardware, and yet you have to stand on the sidelines and watch as US drug companies make a killing.

Well, Hosni Mubarak, the Egyptian President, has some words of comfort for us all. As he recently pointed out, this adventure by Bush and Blair will have created such hatred throughout the Arab world, that 100 new bin Ladens will have been created.

So all of us here in Britain, as well as in America, shouldn't lose heart. Once the Arab world starts to take its revenge, there should be enough reconstruction to do at home to keep business thriving for some years to come.

Is this article contending that these companies are not qualified to do the work they have been hired to do?

Or does he mean to say that in fact Iraq is not in need of professional reconstruction assistance?

scottc,
Maybe the reason for your post is because the Netherlands didn't get the contracts.
You know, if you had lent a hand here, it may have had a different outcome. But no, the pacifists sat back and now they are left out. Booo hooo. Cry me a river....
Somebody has to put it back together and as in all wars, it's the responcability of the country who broke it. Period. Get over it and stop reading in something that's not there.

Well then, maybe the Brits weren't qualified. Go figure.
"Jealousy and paranoia will destroy ya."

scottc,
As a veteran, there are many rights that are deserved and there are many that aren't. I'm all for government cuts if they are for the right reason and don't jeopardise those who aren't abusing those rights. Like any government program there are abuses.
As for GWB, what ever he did in the past doesn't affect what he is doing today and it's all been in the open since he was governer of TX, so, what's the point. There are many leaders in Europe who have done and are doing worse things and the Europeans laugh at the publicity we give to this. We have had many presidents who have done worse and were greatleaders. Just look at Clinton. Geez, what a nucklehead.
As for Bechtel, if they are screw ups, better there than here.

Alas, I wrote a long and thoughtful response but disappeared when I tried to post. Maybe there is a new "server is busy" conspiracy set up to frustrate the "pro-war" supporters????

Bottom line corruption requires deep systemic complicity and brutal oppression of the loose lipped. I lived in Russia for 6 years and saw it first hand: offshore accounts, bribes, murder, etc.

In an open system like US where people in power are there for short durations and there is plently of powerful opposition to shed light on inproprieties, corruption at the level you suppose is highly unlikely. Someone would talk. A lot of corruption is also coerced - if you don't give me this contract your daughter dies. etc. That's the real deal.

Bechtel and Haliburton are at eachothers throats. Major defence contractors, there is just a handful, can't all win all the time. People peddle influence and favors but that is different than corruption.

Politically speaking, the US had to move quick after the conflict to try to show tangible benefits and reconstruction of key infrastructure. This is a risky thing. They go to the big boys who have done it before. They couldn't start a public procurement on this 12 months before the war started now could they?

Show me a list of other firms with the same capabilities and we will start from there...

scottc,
Have you ever served? Probably not.
You are pretty good at insulting everyone else though.
Not every veteran feels the way your so-called REAL veterans think. I am a Disabled Veteran a member of the American Legion and the Veterans of Foreign Wars and I feel everyone has a right to fight or not and also have a right to their opinions and not have them forced on you, I have my own opinions and I’m entitled. I also believe in forgiveness not hatred forever. When I was in Vietnam, I never heard of GWB so, it didn't matter to me then and it doesn't matter to me now. What matters to me is today and tomorrow you twit. You can’t change the past but GWB has a chance to make up for what ever he did or didn’t do. At least he didn’t claim Islam to get out of the Draft like Mohammad Ali.
You don't know me and frankly I'm glad we will never meet because I am positive I would not care for your distaste for Americans or you condescending attitude.
You also have a real tenacity for putting words in people’s mouths and distorting every post. You seem to be pretty much a real butt hole.
Your ignorance is showing, and my impression of you is that you are a *****y little coward.
What do you care anyway? It doesn't affect you pacifists in the Netherlands. On one hand you're a pacifist and then condemn GWB for being one. So, I guess you’re a hypocrite too.
Get off your soapbox, I can see right up your dress.

Scottc,
You are one ignorant piece of work. You are truely a good representation of your country. Keep up the good work.
Again, you put words in the poster's mouth and make what you want out of it. I suggest that the rest of this forum not waiste anymore time with you.
I don't have to prove or disprove anything to you or anyone else, think what you want but don't tell the rest of us what to think.
You know, on second thought, I really would like to meet you. I think I could help sraighten a couple things out for you.
And you know you don't have a dog. Nice try.

USA1,

I am ignorant?. I realise what is going on in your country, you do not. You support a deserter, I do not, you actually believe the BS that a deeply uninteligent person is telling you, I do not. So who is the ignorant one?. Incidentally, you are right, I dont have a dog. I have 2. A spaniel called snoop, and a spitz hound called rueben. I can honestly say that they provide more intelectually stimulating debate than you. Then again, in dog years they are older than 15.

You have no idea what America is like, you ingnorant twit.
You need to stay out of the coffee shops scotty, because it's starting to affect your rational judgment.
Do the dogs actually answer you when you have your intelligent conversations?
Wow.. you are a piece of work.

Now what? When one seems to be out of points to argue, it is natural to get tensed a bit and sprout out words which may match the outpourings of a man like bush, but not the great men like Abe Lincoln or Roosevelt. Calm down, USA1, we admire your country for all its good. But what they did in Iraq, that was unpardonable. It will surely hang over Bush's neck for a long period. Sure!

This whole premise that George Bush is a deserter is complete malarkey. I'll skip the whole long FACTUAL dissertation on why he is not a deserter since you'll paint things the way you want to see them anyhow.

I'll just ask you one question: If GWB really were truly a "deserter", do you think he'd have the respect of the military that he does? Compare this to Clinton who was despised by the military.

The fact that you resort to name-calling and denigration based on falacy in order to attempt to make your case either shows your inability to debate or the weakness of your argument.

End of thread.

He signed up for a six year stint in the guard. He served very well as a pilot during his first four years. In fact, putting in more time than required. Admittedly, he then blew off a year of his guard obligations to go to Alabama to work on political campaigns. In fact, many people at the time would serve for several years and then blow off their Guard oblgations. So his behavior was not out of the ordinary or an act of cowardice as you would like others to beleive when you throw the term deserter around. (Note that most of the people in the US military have a great deal of respect for him. If he could truly be classified as a deserter, do you think that would be the case? Also, I sincerely doubt that he would have been elected by the American people if he truly deserved the title deserter.)

Now, I suppose technically it APPEARS as though he was a deserter but given the fact that it was common practice and that National Guard units stayed stateside during the Vietnam War, I think it's rather rash to run around calling him a deserter. Especailly given that he was never charged or prosecuted and that, at least colloquially, the term deserter is generally reserved for those who flee from battle out of cowardice.

FACT: He was never accused of desertion by the military or tried for desertion, much less convicted of it. He was given an honorary discharge. Obviously, the military justice system did not see this as serious enough or substantiated well enough to prosecute him. Is he innocent until proven guilty or have you deemed yourself the sole arbiter of US military justice in this case?

Oh yeah, and, by the way, how does this have any relevance to world politics in the 21st century? Answer: It doesn't.

But, I suppose those, like you, who are looking for any reason to discredit him would grasp at any straw so you'll keep bringing up this old, tired, irrelevant argument. For me, his excellent service during the first part of his guard service and his public service since that time greatly outweigh blowing off Guard meetings for a year.

One final question: Do you know anyone who may have been drinking and driven home a few times when they shouldn't have? Probably. Do you run around calling them a repeat DUI offender every chance you get? No, of course not. It's not a perfect world and no one in it is, even you.

Get real and try to base your arguments on something that is substantive. If you disagree on foreign policy issues, military strategy or geo-polical approaches, that's one thing but it really does cheapen your position when you have to grasp at unnecessary and unsubstantiated denigration in order to try to make your case.

Hint: Re-read the bolded part above before responding.

scottc: I'll hit your points briefly:

What does a pedophile have to do with GWB skipping Guard meetings? A little out in left field, don't you think?

He WAS elected. Even Al Gore knows that. Not to mention Congress, the Supreme Court and the vast majority of the American populus - those approval ratings must really make your blood boil.

BTW: Did you check out of all those independent post-election recounts? He won Florida in all of them. Denial is not a healthy emotional state - seek counseling.

I'll skip the discussion on the hows and why of the electoral vote vs. the popular vote - you'll just get more frustrated and confused.

Someone murdering and eating 12 babies??? Where did this come from? Is this the sort of thing that haunts your nightmares? Some counseling might be in order here as well.

How is Jeb Bush's position on the issue of abortion related to GWB's Guard service?

I never even implied that I thought the president (oops, sorry, governor - I forgot about he denial thing) was always right. I was adressing the issue of GWB's supposed "desertion."

Thank you for your insightful point by point analysis of my post. I've never had a delusional episode on crack but your post helps me understand what it might be like. Now we see the true end result of those liberal drug policies in the Netherlands.

Your vitriolic nonsensical tirade demonstrates a complete lack of rational thought - which is probably why you're a liberal and a Bush-hater.

PS: You seem as though you're far gone enough to qualify for some free counseling from the government - could save you a few bucks on the road back to reality. I guess government-sponsored mental health programs DO have their place.

Incidentally, I posted the last reply from my wifes ID.

Scottc.

Americaah,
scottc is full of crap. Since when does Germany use pounds as a monetary measure? Old Marks maybe or even Euros but not pounds. Hick Yanks is an English term isn't it?
scottc. you are a complete and utter idiot.
Let's see, um, today I drive a porche, or maybe it's a Benz. I'd say a maybe a Vauxhal. Oh ya, isn't that owned by GM?
You even have tha gaul to post Germany as your home when in fact you live in England or Scottland. What's a BA anyway? Bad Attitude or British Ass?

USA1,

I use pounds because I am British, in exactly the same way that all Americans over here judge prices and income in dollar terms. It is what you grew up with, so it is the measure used.

I live in Koenigstein, which is 20K from Frankfurt. I have the misfortune of being close to the Wiesbaden US Army base, which means I have to listen to the rediculous whine of the yank voice a few times too many.

Americaaah, you still have not answered my question. It is interesting because if you, as I suspect, work in a gas station, your support of Bush is the biggest indicator as to how stupid you are.

scottc:

You need to go back to school to learn what an analogy is. You obviously don't understand the whole concept of analogies.

The purpose of an analogy is to find a situation that is as similar as possible to the situation at hand, not to come up with something that is as inflammatory as possible.

To compare neglecting National Guard duty, in essense a contractual obligation to a government body, to an act of violence/perversion committed by an adult against an unconsenting minor is just plain ridiculous. Your other "analogies" are equally inappropraite and do more to prove that you're most likely irrantional than to prove your case.

Later, you, in what I suppose you'd consider a fit of cleverness, try to bring in the issue of GWB's brother's stand on abortion, something totally irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

If these are the best "analogies" that you can come up with, then your side of this issue is much better off if you just read posts and refrain from "contributing." If you want have a serious debate, then you need to debate, not rant.