Just an Apology would be a start

Post-9/11 Era Forum

If we really want to take the threat of terrorism seriously and start to do somthing about arresting it then America and Britain (and any other guilty western power) should apologise for our past crimes, for the support given to dictators and tyrants that tortured and murdered, and for the military hardware we profited from that was used to carry out atrocities and deaths that are into the millions.

Unless we admit to our complicity in attrocites and our continuing imperialism both militarily and economically then inevitable one day a western country will be attacked and it will be 100 times more deadly than 9/11.

Sorry Europe isn't goosestepping or spending their vacations in the gulag.

And I'm real sorry that there are so many non-aryans still alive and left to pursue their own life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness (for better or worse).

I want to apologize to all of those who have not been tortured and oppressed.

I am also sorry that we have not been able to feed, educate, heal, and care for everyone in the world, and turn your lives into a perfect hollywood movie.

DaveDom's statements remind me ones that soviet propaganda used every time: west is to blame for world's problems.

While I will grant Dave that consistency in approach is important, we shouldn't lose sight of the "big picture." Haggling details is always time consuming and usually pointless.

More often than not it is simply a tactic used to distract pepole from the point.

The Soviet block may have fallen but there's plenty still living in the region that have a lot to apologise for. Putin included.

Attrocities are attrocities whoever carried them out. That we in the west, especially the US and Britain have supported torture, death, rape and destruction because it benefited our business interests, helped by a media that chose to ignore it, and a public that was unaware is shameful and will continue to come back to haunt us.

While politicians and the media continue to lie to us we will never have democracy. We may as well be a flock of dumb sheep being led to the slaughter.

Originally posted by DaveDom
The Soviet block may have fallen but there's plenty still living in the region that have a lot to apologise for. Putin included.

That's true, however what i meant is that what soviets kept saying 30-40 years ago is a little softened and spread amongst today's left wing anti-Bushers. That's why i believe Bush - never in my life i will support socialists.

Attrocities are attrocities whoever carried them out.

Yes. I think i said it before.

That we in the west, especially the US and Britain have supported torture, death, rape and destruction because it benefited our business interests, helped by a media that chose to ignore it, and a public that was unaware is shameful and will continue to come back to haunt us.

What a bright sentence coming from world's man like you.
Every government in every country makes mistakes. Britain - your homeland, DaveDom, that you dont care about - captured half of the world, starting with America, an ex-british colony. Same with France, Spain, Russia, Turkey, Greece, Italy, China, India... That does not mean they all try to build empires at present time - some of them do, actually. Like China and Russia. USA on the other side never captured other countries to benefit it's economic interests, neither it does now.

While politicians and the media continue to lie to us we will never have democracy. We may as well be a flock of dumb sheep being led to the slaughter.

Oh yea, we are far away from true democracy.

Originally posted by DaveDom

The slaughter in Indonesia and East Timor WAS NOT A MISTAKE. We not only knew it was happening we encouraged and supported it. Suharto was a tryrant almost on a par with Stalin and yet most people have probably never heard of him. This went on for 30 years right up to the Blair government who continued to sell hawk jets until just a couple of years ago. This is recent history. THIS DID NOT HAPPEN BY ACCIDENT. We are complicit in the deaths of millions.

So why are you crying about it now? Where were all of you anti-war protesters 5, 10, 20 years ago? How do you know if Suharto's tyranty was dictated by the west or no? You accuse west of having ties with dictators... While i accuse Saddam of being a dictator. What's your point?

We supported Suharto for the same reason we've supported many tyrants, including Saddam, to protect western business interests against anyone who thinks that a countries assets should benefit their own people.

No! Suharto was there to lay off communists, and to try to establish pro-western (note: not just pro-american) relations. He did not slap a finger to protect western business interests.

"The PKI was recognised by the British and US officials as the Champion of the landless and poor in Indonesia" Mark Curtis.

And so we helped Suharto to destroy them.

Yes. So? Name does not stand for what it actually is.

What USA and UK tried to do in Indonesia is they tried to stabilize political situation, that was very unstable under Sukarno's leadership. Actually people mostly supported Suharto in power - who turned to be a dictator. But come on, many countries have gone thru dictatorship, slavery, communism, etc.

Indonesia invades East Timor
Iraq invades Kuwait

Spot the difference?

First of all, we are talking about little financial support from the USA. Second, western investments are nothing but for good of Indonesian economy. Third, even if he mass murdered thousands of leftists - just like Pinochet did - it IS justified to some degree. Communism/socialism had to be stopped. Also nobody can be compared to Stalin - even Hitler did not mass murder germans like Stalin did with soviet people. Millions of lives gone to other world - all because of one crazy man. That is what USA fought, fights and i hope will continue to fight.

I dont know why, but all of you leftists think USA supplied the whole world with weapons, planes, and so on. It did, but not more than every other country - Russia, France, Germany, etc.

Leftists believe in ideology, and right-wingers believe in freedom. Leftists want everything and everybody to be under tight control, something like share-and-distribute system practiced here in Canada. They are so jealous of USA's success they blame it for their problems. They should understand that without freedom not only in economy, but in every person's personal life country as a whole won't be happy. Nobody wants to be dictated what to do, what to buy, what to say, and so on. Here government put almost everything under it's control: country-wide tax revenue system works on government's awareness of where and how much money you spend, practically telling us what to buy, and where to spend our dollars. Anti-racism propaganda has lead to domination of so called 'visible minorities' (majorities, actually) in Toronto and Vancouver already. You would think this is off topic, but the nature of leftism is the same everywhere. Make people believe in some idea, and then benefit from it as much as possible. I believe in myself, and in freedom so that i can realize myself. Leftists believe in community, and control over it to keep it 'nice'. Maybe one day they will understand that it's wrong; if no, we have to make them.
Belief in dogma/propaganda is the reason of islamic extremism. Big difference is a dictator like Stalin makes crowd's anger turn towards him; while Hitler and Saddam turn it towards outside 'enemies' like USA. Soft foreign policies, tries to achieve diplomatic solution have led to what we have today - hatred and it's material expression - terrorism. Forcebly changing their way of thinking is very risky too. I hope it will be ok with time.

If you did not understand how our government benefits from mass immigration from asian countries, ill try to explain it. Heavy taxing and socialization slows down economic growth, as well as cultural and scientific development, and so on. Where as many countries moved to automation and machines performing routies duties, Canadian businesses can't afford it - due to lack of resources and knowledge. To compensate this back-draw, government decided to bring immigrants from third-world countries who don't hesitate to work as labours. That lets the government keep wrong system running, while keeping average quality of life high, thanks to majority of Canadians who earn reasonably enough. You would ask: why do they want to keep the system? Easy: to steal our, taxpayers' money, and to stay in power being supported by new-comers who are thankfull to government for letting them come to Canada and by Canadians who believe in what government wants them to believe in.
Maybe i am wrong, but it explains everything.
By the way, propaganda works well in the USA too - at least republicans are right-winged.

coffee: i was talking about past. Also, 1st rank can be explained by the size of the country, as well as unawareness of Russia's black market size.

Originally posted by MrJukoVette
Leftists believe in ideology, and right-wingers believe in freedom.

The very idea that right-wingers don't believe in an ideology is laughable. Right-wing = freedom? In my experience the right are far more inclined to crack down and restrict freedom wherever they percieve a threat to their ideology. Just one example: patriatism used as a means to curtail political debate. It has worked a treat for Bush and was the Nazi's favorite methods of stiffling debate. Another example: corrupting freedom of thought. A while back over 50% of Americans thought that Saddam was responsible for 9/11. This did not happen accidentally. And of course there's the Patriat Act.

Leftists want everything and everybody to be under tight control, something like share-and-distribute system practiced here in Canada.

Again utterly laughable. The US has been prodding it's finger into many countries that it percieved as undermining it's role as superpower or undermining it's strategic and business interests. America loves to control and has helped overthrow DEMOCRATIC governments.

Anti-racism propaganda has lead to domination of so called 'visible minorities' (majorities, actually) in Toronto and Vancouver already. You would think this is off topic, but the nature of leftism is the same everywhere.

Racism is one of the right's favourite weapons in stirring up trouble and getting votes. It's the usual cry of, "we're losing our culture, and we're being swamped by darkies" that's been going on for centuries and is used by both the media and politicians on the right as a political tool.

I believe in myself, and in freedom so that i can realize myself. Leftists believe in community, and control over it to keep it 'nice'. Maybe one day they will understand that it's wrong; if no, we have to make them.

You can realise yourself? You are smug and self satisfied. Many of the world's poor have tried to take control of their own lives and for their efforts have been trampled on by big business, US interference, and a general lack of worldly awarness. Get out of your ivory tower and try finding out how much struggle there is going on in the world.

Soft foreign policies, tries to achieve diplomatic solution have led to what we have today - hatred and it's material expression - terrorism. Forcebly changing their way of thinking is very risky too. I hope it will be ok with time.

Soft foreign policy?? NO - quite the opposite - support of oppresive regimes and stiffling or destroying democracy when it didn't suit US interests is partly to blame for the world we live in today. Why do they hate us, American's keep asking? The answer from MrJukoVette - cause they're jealous.

Well said Dave,
If a government anywhere in the world -democratically elected by its people- shows left wing tendencies like nationalistaion of its resources, then you can be damn sure America is watching it. And if the country is weak enough or may be influential in its governmental style to its neighbours then the US attacks. Left wing governments are not permitted to show that they may work and work better than right-wing ones.

Originally posted by DaveDom

The very idea that right-wingers don't believe in an ideology is laughable. Right-wing = freedom? In my experience the right are far more inclined to crack down and restrict freedom wherever they percieve a threat to their ideology.

I dont mean that people who pro-right dont believe in any ideology, they rather do, but it's more of their choice whether to believe or not, and what to believe in.

Just one example: patriatism used as a means to curtail political debate. It has worked a treat for Bush and was the Nazi's favorite methods of stiffling debate.

Again you compare Bush and nazis. F****ng americans - how they dare to love their own country! Patriotism always leads the country to become a nazi regime. When i ask you DaveDom do you love you country or no, you said 'it's good to live here, bla bla bla'. If you dont love your homeland, then again, it's your problem, not anybody's else.

Another example: corrupting freedom of thought. A while back over 50% of Americans thought that Saddam was responsible for 9/11. This did not happen accidentally.

Actually i have stated that americans are just as easy controlled as Canadians. GWB said that Saddam may have ties with terrorist groups - not exactly Al Qaida, and not that he is responsible for 9/11. But this war is part of ongoing global war against terrorism.

And of course there's the Patriat Act.

What's wrong with it? With Patriot Act, stealing info from computers over the internet (for ex.) is no longer crime, but a possible terrorist act. Well, these measures are required - who knows what do they want to do tomorrow. Criminals who protest against this way of their treatment can go kiss their own asses.

Again utterly laughable. The US has been prodding it's finger into many countries that it percieved as undermining it's role as superpower or undermining it's strategic and business interests. America loves to control and has helped overthrow DEMOCRATIC governments.

No. America in fact is the only country that opposes leftists and proposes democracy. So called 'democratic governments' are in reality socialists - supporters of USSR expansion. These governments had to be overthrown.

Racism is one of the right's favourite weapons in stirring up trouble and getting votes. It's the usual cry of, "we're losing our culture, and we're being swamped by darkies" that's been going on for centuries and is used by both the media and politicians on the right as a political tool.

First of all, it's not a weapon to stir up trouble. Regarding the culture: Canadians lost it already, it's too late to cry. I wonder what happens next - they rename country to suit the immigrants, or add couple of more official languages.

You can realise yourself? You are smug and self satisfied. Many of the world's poor have tried to take control of their own lives and for their efforts have been trampled on by big business, US interference, and a general lack of worldly awarness. Get out of your ivory tower and try finding out how much struggle there is going on in the world.

Typical leftist view of the world. Many of the world's poor lived in the USA half a century ago - i'm not even talking about earlier periods. Poor people should look for their own ways to become rich, not wait for someone to throw a bone in their yards. I know much better how much struggle there is in the world.

Soft foreign policies, tries to achieve diplomatic solution have led to what we have today - hatred and it's material expression - terrorism. Forcebly changing their way of thinking is very risky too. I hope it will be ok with time.

Soft foreign policy?? NO - quite the opposite - support of oppresive regimes and stiffling or destroying democracy when it didn't suit US interests is partly to blame for the world we live in today.

What are US interests? Make as many countries as possible prosperous, so that they start buying goods. You call it USA's evil plan to forcebly make up customers - i call it liberation.

Why do they hate us, American's keep asking? The answer from MrJukoVette - cause they're jealous.

They are. And you are. Your envy is not white - it's black. Instead of looking at somebody who has more and thinking "this guy is awesome, i gotta do better than him", you start thinking "this guy has everything, while good people like me have nothing. it's unfair - moneys have to be taken away from them and given to me"

Originally posted by Grimminick

If a government anywhere in the world -democratically elected by its people- shows left wing tendencies like nationalistaion of its resources, then you can be damn sure America is watching it.

??? Nonsense.
Again the saga about America stealing resources.

And if the country is weak enough

No.

or may be influential in its governmental style to its neighbours then the US attacks.

Yes.

Left wing governments are not permitted to show that they may work and work better than right-wing ones.

They never DO work better than right-wing ones. Government in a socialist country is always bigger, thus it has more layers of bureacracy and more control over population. While right proposes to give power to population - workers, businesses, so that they decide how to live - because it's their country.